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Is there any work being done on a system to prevent scams?

TheLastKnight said:
I'd say no. Why give bank owners this kind of monopoly? If they can make more money off renting, they'd never sell, and what would prevent a bank owner from buying up everything for sale and then renting it all out? Imagine a selling thread for a nice dmg/sec gun that you want. It may take you a while to get the ped...then comes along a bank owner..hmm, I can buy that nice looking gun and just rent it. Rinse and repeat.

Rather than seeing stuff for sale, you'd see a long list of for rent items.

The system already works as it should.
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Why? Because people want protection, banks require substantial investment, they are already in game, already deal with item loans, and the loan system they have in place is basically useless. First and foremost, if an idea is proposed we should think of

1) what value it brings to the community and

2) whether there are resources already available to accommodate this that are being underutilized.

In this way we preserve value of investments and provide a reason for folks to see items as growth investments rather than as monetary dead ends. The community is still interested in this aspect of the game, is it not?

It is an opportunity to redevelop the pawn shop BS currently part of banks and provide something of value for these rather expensive failures, while addressing a need the community perceives exists. While I may not agree with the need, and while I definitely do not own or have any affiliation with bank owners, I respect the desires of the community as well as the investments already made in the product.

There's no monopoly at play here. There is always the system as it is. Bank Owners cant say "everyone else is not allowed to offer loans" all they can offer is a certain comfort that the item on loan is backed by some sort of institution and therefore at least some form of guarantee.

At the end of the day Bank Owners have as much of a monopoly on loans as mothership owners have on space travel. None.
 
Magyar_Republic said:
At the end of the day Bank Owners have as much of a monopoly on loans as mothership owners have on space travel. None.
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If I were a bank holder and your proposed idea was in place, I would buy from all the selling threads and put items in my bank for rent. With the revenue I can generate, why wouldn't I? I would take everything for BO and advertise items for rent. This would be a blessing...not only will I get revenue from loans people get, but I can turn around and rent out whatever I can get my hands on. Whenever shadow or mod merc or mod fap hits the market, I'd buy it, every time, because I know people want to use them...and why not? I'll provide an affordable service right? But wait...I'm buying 'everything', and not only me, but the other bank holders are...price war? Dammit, the price is going up because bankers want the permanent rights to an item.

Yay for seller, yay for banker, everyone else? The fear of people having the option to rent/hoard doesn't only end with people, it applies to banks too.
 
TheLastKnight said:
If I were a bank holder and your proposed idea was in place, I would buy from all the selling threads and put items in my bank for rent. With the revenue I can generate, why wouldn't I? I would take everything for BO and advertise items for rent. This would be a blessing...not only will I get revenue from loans people get, but I can turn around and rent out whatever I can get my hands on. Whenever shadow or mod merc or mod fap hits the market, I'd buy it, every time, because I know people want to use them...and why not? I'll provide an affordable service right? But wait...I'm buying 'everything', and not only me, but the other bank holders are...price war? Dammit, the price is going up because bankers want the permanent rights to an item.

Yay for seller, yay for banker, everyone else? The fear of people having the option to rent/hoard doesn't only end with people, it applies to banks too.
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This requires sellers giving them the power to do it. It works for anyone else too. If I wanted to do it why not just do this as a player? You know, buy everything and control a market?

It's paranoia. While it could happen, it likely wont. And if it did we would have nobody to blame but ourselves.
 
Magyar_Republic said:
This requires sellers giving them the power to do it. It works for anyone else too. If I wanted to do it why not just do this as a player? You know, buy everything and control a market?

It's paranoia. While it could happen, it likely wont. And if it did we would have nobody to blame but ourselves.
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You've made my whole argument. The thought of implementing a rental type system, either for person to person, or allowing the banks to have that option is just bad, period. If it could happen, it would. At the end of the day, sellers want ped, and people that are allowed to rent stuff out (bank holders) would pay premium prices to limit supply, I would. Then I'll just turn around and count the ped coming in from 'lending' it out.
 
Well, over the years I have been one of the most vocal advocates for a rental system however now that Kim|Calypso has confirmed that there in fact has been a policy change with regard to "all trades being final", there is no point in having a rental system.
 
I have to disagree with you, Magyar. Your idea simply reduces a problematic loan system down to a chosen few based on their investment.

The main problem of item hoarding isn't solved this way.
 
JohnCapital said:
I have to disagree with you, Magyar. Your idea simply reduces a problematic loan system down to a chosen few based on their investment.

The main problem of item hoarding isn't solved this way.
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I will try to remain unbiased as best i can. There is a difference however i believe between everyone having access to loaning and the bank and that is the fact that you can limit the capabilities without risk of 2nd ava's, friend's ava etc being used. As in if a bank can only lend 1 item of each type and only 10 items at a time then that should technically prevent abuse in terms of hoarding.

Since i have had the twin peaks bank , that's approx last 3 weeks or so i have had at least 5 people come and ask me about item loans. Mostly newbies in my opinion who did not know what the activities are of the bank and thought the banks were for loaning items. The point being it would fit the theme that banks can loan both ways, items for peds and items itself.

When i was thinking this through, the other thing that came to my mind was that the cost of development of the system can be passed on to the banks by MA, as in put a monthly or a one time fee for using the service. Something of that sort to reduce the cost of development at MA's end.

I am not saying that MA should or would do this, as i am sure this could also have a lot of drawbacks which i have not yet thought of. However i feel, control is better handled if power is given to entities which can be regulated ( as in number of banks cannot change significantly compared to one person creating a dozen ava's)
 
Divinity said:
I will try to remain unbiased as best i can.
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I can always respect that. :)

Theoretical: Imagine MA did create a loan system for banks only, and tried to mitigate potential damage by limiting the qty of items you could rent at a time

Question #1: Would you (and the other bank owners) honestly buy items with the specific intention of offering them for rent?

Question #2: 9 months after this system started, how many bank owners (The 4 of you) would petition MA to increase that limit?


Now I admit, all of this is just a mental exercise for me. However I'll admit it's nice the OP got a fairly official reply from Kim|MA. :thumbup:
 
JohnCapital said:
I have to disagree with you, Magyar. Your idea simply reduces a problematic loan system down to a chosen few based on their investment.

The main problem of item hoarding isn't solved this way.
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I dont think there is a problem with hoarding. Its an economy. With all the issues that lie within. If folks dont watch where their wealth goes it will go to the wealthy. It is endemic to any monetary situation and it is not something MA can or should resolve. Having MA resolve it is basically the same as praying to God to save you some gold when you finally get to the area folks are mining in. God wont, and neither will MA.

The community should solve this, by acting as a community and creating collectives to combat wealth hoarding by positioning wealth in the hands of the many and thus providing alternative business outlets for folks in need. It is our problem. Because though we fancy ourselves a community that is basically an illusion. We aren't one.
 
Magyar_Republic said:
I dont think there is a problem with hoarding. Its an economy. With all the issues that lie within. If folks dont watch where their wealth goes it will go to the wealthy. It is endemic to any monetary situation and it is not something MA can or should resolve. Having MA resolve it is basically the same as praying to God to save you some gold when you finally get to the area folks are mining in. God wont, and neither will MA.

The community should solve this, by acting as a community and creating collectives to combat wealth hoarding by positioning wealth in the hands of the many and thus providing alternative business outlets for folks in need. It is our problem. Because though we fancy ourselves a community that is basically an illusion. We aren't one.
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The burden of responsibility of balancing the economy falls onto MindArk and Mindark alone. Why? because its their video game. The community has ZERO ability to control balance or change business models within the game.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda makes no difference because we cant control how the game is designed.

As I previously said, over the years I've been one of the most vocal advocates for creating a lending system simply to prevent and avoid the scams that so commonly have taken place. I am well aware of the long term balancing problems of any lending system which is why I have been suggesting a very limited and restricted system that is cost prohibitive from an entrepreneurial stand point. However, now that MindArk has changed the "all trades are final" policy, that's an even better solution.

With a lending system, the very real fear is that it would cause an initial bubble in item prices, but then long term lead to a devastating crash, from which the game's economy can not recover.

If a lending system were to be implemented it would have to be done in such a way so as to completely prevent renting-for-profit, otherwise it would be the end of EU. Think about it... why buy (L) when you can rent tiered unlimited for a small fee? Why buy unlimited guns when you can just rent one? Everyone would just rent... soon the (L) market would completely crash which along with destroying MU% in hunting loot, would completely kill the crafting profession, and along with it, the mining profession. Thats lights out for EU.
 
I think the time for a lending system is long past. It may have made sense if implemented five+ years ago, but would have too much negative impact on the system and market now.

Regarding the new approach to "all trades are final", i hope that more harsh penalties will be applied than we have seen so far, or this will actually create more cases (due to players feeling less risk in lending) rather than reduce them (which it would if "an example" were made of the culprits).

I would also like to see MA revisit the policy for tted items. 1k peds for a simple dumb mistake is pretty harsh when the cost to undo it is extremely low and the potential for confusion nil. Compare that with people loaning items who are not penalized if things go south under the current policy, in spite of the cost of resolving that to customer service, and the uncertainties...
 
HardWrath said:
The burden of responsibility of balancing the economy falls onto MindArk and Mindark alone. Why? because its their video game. The community has ZERO ability to control balance or change business models within the game.
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Respectfully disagree. See my point about praying to God. MA created EU. Therefore in EU MA is God. Should God come down and solve all the problems of the world, or should the world resolve them?

Its a question of philosophy, I guess. Where does responsibility lay?

I dont blame anyone but myself for anything negative that comes my way.
 
Magyar_Republic said:
MA created EU. Therefore in EU MA is God.
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More like a government, not a god.

Discussions of Universal creation sources aside, you know I'm all about Individualism. But... A loan system in this Universe would be harmful to this game for precisely the reasons of individual actions, and therefore not a good call for MA to implement.

Besides, based on the +rep you gave me, I'm guessing this is just you stirring the pot out of boredom.
 
JohnCapital said:
More like a government, not a god.

Discussions of Universal creation sources aside, you know I'm all about Individualism. But... A loan system in this Universe would be harmful to this game for precisely the reasons of individual actions, and therefore not a good call for MA to implement.

Besides, based on the +rep you gave me, I'm guessing this is just you stirring the pot out of boredom.
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No, I consider this a legitimate discussion and much more productive than another thread that simply rails against scams, scammers, and MA. You raised a good point and whether I agree or disagree a good point deserves a +rep. Actually, you raised a few. Unfortunately I couldnt +rep you twice. Your initial good point was that (in a nutshell) another individual was posting thoughtless replies. I agreed.

It's an interesting dovetail from scams, but the points were raised so why not run with them?

Regarding government, that's a bit sticky. While provisioning us tools to work with may seem like government, ultimately they dont truly step in unless there is a problem that needs resolution falling outside of the tool set they have provided us. Issues where justice is required come to mind. They simply have not provided us tools, nor can they, to create a true justice system in game. So they must step in. But in terms of economic issues, by and large they stand aside and let nature take its course. At least from what I have seen. This diverges from a governmental role of overseer.
 
Magyar_Republic said:
You raised a good point and whether I agree or disagree a good point deserves a +rep.
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Fair enough. :)

Do you really see a difference between everyone being able to loan vs only bank owners being able too?
 
JohnCapital said:
Fair enough. :)

Do you really see a difference between everyone being able to loan vs only bank owners being able too?
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Yeah. Its a service with monetary value vs an innate ability. The service is the ability to provide a contract of sorts that backs any sort of loan.

That's the function of a bank, really. Security. It makes sense for banks to have this ability.

It makes sense for players to have the ability to offer a loan, but not a contract. Like they do now. You take your chances, but its cheaper (as long as you dont lose your item).
 
KyrismaStarsong said:
It seems like scams in game are on the uptake right now, I'm hearing more and more about trust scams as well as ones due to faulty game systems. Is there a team working on any solutions to make scams obsolete? I've heard many good ideas from the player base, including a recall function like with vehicles, a system similar to deeds for big value items, a checkbox of some sort to "lock" or "bind" items to the owner, or others. Surely there has to be a way to keep our items more secure and prevent the ongoing problem of theft in EU, is anybody doing anything in an official capacity to make it harder for the unscrupulous ones, or easier for honest avatars to protect their assets?
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heres a simple solution they should make an option to bind the item to you therefore it cannot be sold by another player cause its bind to you and if renting out they should add an option for time period like 1 hour after 1 hour the item automatically returns to your inventory this is very simple an I think it would work
 
Kim|Calypso said:
Not in terms of a new system but we are in the process of coming up with a new policy for how to deal with these cases when they appear. You've most likely seen some of that work surface with some recent cases that were publicized on this forum.
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So, is this the new (old) policy?

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?265582-Support-Reminder-Item-Lending

What exactly is happening? Are you coming up with a new policy or did you scrap that idea simply to hold fast to the status quo? Can we ever expect any reliable help from MA or Calypso or whoever you are officially or are we simply on our own unless one of you guys is having a good day and decides to help out?

Will crime continue to pay here in EU? Inquiring minds want to know.
 
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