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Bugged Deeds?

aia said:
The reason Mindark takes them is easy, and you can read it here in this thread:

The deeds aren't allowed to be traded, but they got traded anyway. People here doesn't understand that there are items that you might hold on to, but you aren't allowed to trade. And because some people doesn't understand that, the "bugged" items are now removed from game. This way the "bugged" items won't get traded yet Another time by mistake.
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I seem to be repeating myself here.

Yes there are items that are not allowed to be sold, they are all either owned by a MA official or are flagged for being un-tradable, which mean you CAN'T sell them.

IF any of the MA officials for some reason sells his 1 shot 1 kill weapons to a player, they are not allowed to and I would assume they CAN'T do that because of some measure MA took to prevent it, but for the sake of this post lets imagine they are not allowed but CAN sell them.

MA would instantly reverse the sale of that item when they notice something wrong, right?

Not with this LA, David Post was not allowed to sell, or give them away, yet he still did. The one that got them eventually contacted support about the bugs. Shouldn't this ring all alarm bells at MA HQ about a non tradable item in circulation and shouldn't they have acted on that asap?

Yet they choose to keep the buyer hanging not fixing the problems. Then the LA got sold again to Narfi and he again contacted support with the issue and again they kept him hanging without fixing the issue and eventually giving him info on the LA's, that they where not supposed to be in game. "We never aproved that David Post sold (or gave) them to that guy" Again this does not tell me that Narfi was not allowed to sell them. But again MA did nothing to prevent Narfi from selling the LA, so he did (for a lot less then was working LA's go for) with all sorts of warnings that they were bugged and had issues.

Again the new owner contacted MA with the issues and again nothing happened, until all of a sudden they are removed from his inventory.


To use a laptop analogy, like aia did. Lets say there is a store that has a nice laptop on display that is a prototype and it is not allowed to be sold. Yet, one of the employees sells the laptop to me and I pay good money for it. I contact the manufacturer of the laptop with an issue giving them the serial number of the laptop, so they know I have the prototype laptop.

After a few weeks I resell the then broken laptop to someone, telling them it is broken and could possibly be fixed if they contact support. No issue so far. That buyer also contacts support with the issue and then support tells him that that laptop was not supposed to be sold all those weeks ago. I would see that info as "OK someone screwed up, but I bought it so it is not my problem", right?

Again a few weeks later I sell the still broken laptop to another person, again letting him know is broken, but could possibly be fixed. After 2 weeks the company breaks into the guys house and takes his laptop from him without him knowing about it. Seems they can not do that right?

What would the company really do? They would contact the final owner of the laptop, explain the problem and compensate him for the laptop IF he decides to turn it over to them. And the guy in the shop that sold it in the first place would get fired.
 
i think the problem is it didnt get traded anouf times from what i can see in april they new it was someone else that had them that it was not suppose to be traded

anyway that why for me they wont get big dollars from me

back in 2010 i almost depo 10k us to buy a big ticket item

it like its too good to be true its probly is and my 10k went on my shop instead
 
HardWrath said:
it appears that MA did not clearly communicate that to Narfi
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From this it follows that about Shop (or ANY other item ingame!!!) is anything definitely not known, and it may removed from my inventory in ... six months ... or one-two years?
 
Razer said:
Yes there are items that are not allowed to be sold, they are all either owned by a MA official or are flagged for being un-tradable, which mean you CAN'T sell them.
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I tend to repeat myself also, so here it goes: NI was created long Before unreadeable items existed.

Besides mining deeds, I Think the first case of untradeable items started to be implemented with first version of Gateway, when the influx of "farmers" started to be too great. Reservation: I don't remebmer when items like "medkit" got untradeable.

My guess is that planet partners were supposed to be trusted upon so much, so they wouldn't have someone to "nanny" them on which items they weren't allowed to sell.

Also note the difference "not allowed to sell" and "untradeable". There might be a reason why items that not are allowed to be sold still are tradeable. (For instance, maybe Kim at a Point needed to trade Charles Marvin the LA66 land area deed).

Razer said:
To use a laptop analogy, like aia did. Lets say there is a stor that has a nice laptop on display that is a prototype and it is not allowed to be sold. Yet, one of the employees sells the laptop to me and I pay good money for it. I contact the manufacturer of the laptop with an issue giving them the serial number of the laptop, so they know I have the prototype laptop.
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In Sweden, if someone would sell you a laptop that's stolen, and the original owner finds out about it, the original owner can call the police, the police will seize the laptop and give it back to the original owner. Your remedy then is to claim the purchase amount back from the seller, why it is in your interest to know who the seller is (ie check ID and write down "social security number").

If the original asset is sold without permission, it's embezzlement.

A special case; if you buy a phone that's stolen, you risk getting the phone "blocked" in phone networks if the previous owner have sent in the IMEI number of it together with police report.
 
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I highly doubt you have to worry about your Archon swords or common items for that matter. This was a specific item/item set that have highly special circumstances.

I don't know if any of you noticed the sale of Twin Peaks bank recently, but the deed that was placed on Auction was simply the "shed" of the bank, not the functional system. Given that this was an in game transaction, MA was able to identify all parts of the issue quickly and manage the issue fairly. Awarding the functional part of the bank to the purchaser instead of letting him massively overpay for a for a shed, given this was a very unique and unknown to most game system (banking).

Many do deals outside the game, and the only real problem if its all honest business in my opinion there is you loose the paper trail that MA will need to execute effectively on a major problem. There are people I have a lot of respect for in here, I wish them the best in getting it sorted.

However, this situation doesn't have anything to do with miscellaneous items or deeds you purchased disappearing in EU, its a unique situation, which requires unique attention, as unfortunate as that is for all parties :(
 
aia said:
In Sweden, if someone would sell you a laptop that's stolen, and the original owner finds out about it, the original owner can call the police, the police will seize the laptop and give it back to the original owner. Your remedy then is to claim the purchase amount back from the seller, why it is in your interest to know who the seller is (ie check ID and write down "social security number").

If the original asset is sold without permission, it's embezzlement.
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Stolen, yes, maybe, but sold by mistake?


OK maybe my analogy is flawed a bit as well as the LA's were originally GIVEN away to someone for work done.
Nothing was stolen, so the laptop in my analogy would have been given away as a prize in a contest maybe?
 
Took me a while to figure out my account on PCF here so that I could comment on all this mess.

As one of the members of this whole issue from the beginning there are a few things I would like to make straight and clear right now…

The Land Area deeds were never in the hands of Neverdie from my knowledge. For a time I was contracted by David Post and his team over at NextIsland to assist in growing the community and increasing some foot traffic for the planet due to mu community manager experience for other online games. During this time I was given the land area deeds by one of his employees (Meg) and was told by her that they should be working soon and to start hosting events there. I assumed these were given to me with David Post knowing since Meg worked for him. I waited months for them to be fixed and working so I could get things rolling there. But as most of you all know David Post pretty much lost interest and pulled out of NI development and let go his entire NI team in New York.

At this moment here I was sitting with two Land Area deeds on a somewhat dead planet. I spent over a year sending in support cases to MA to try and get these working. (BTW from working in the game engine myself for a time the fix needed to make these work again would take less than 2 hours of actual work). I was always told to go speak to DP about getting them working since he was the planet partner. But this still did not work because there was no way to get in contact with DP anymore from my end. I was also NEVER told by MA in my support cases that the deeds were never intended for sale or trade… Just want to make that clear…

So here I sat with useless deeds to some nice big LA’s that might work one day. As I rarely if ever play in EU I figured why not get them in the hands of someone else who might have a better chance to get them working due to his long standing in the game. An agreement was worked out between myself and Narfi and I traded him the deeds to try to get them to work and to try and bring some life to NI.

After this it was all on Narfi what he did with them. Get them fixed, sell them, keep them forever… It was out of my hands. He knew it would take some effort and be a risk but a small risk sometimes has a great reward.

So there is my side of things. Pick it apart and blame me if you wish.

MA should never have just removed the deeds from Fatal. Again it is a very simple and easy fix for them and might have brought some life to a plane that is pretty much just eating up server space for them. But no they chose to handle things in a disruptive way and cause havoc in the game.

Also to make it clear again NeverDie had NOTHING to do with these deeds at all… It was all David Post (thru Meg) and me…

-Enzo Marius Romanus
 
Marius said:
An agreement was worked out between myself and Narfi and I traded him the deeds to try to get them to work and to try and bring some life to NI.
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How much did narfi pay for those deeds?
 
Angel O2 Mercer said:
How much did narfi pay for those deeds?
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That is between myself and Narfi... And it is irrelevant to this topic really. Price is not the issue but in fact how it has all been handled by the parties involved and MA.
 
Razer said:
Stolen, yes, maybe, but sold by mistake?


OK maybe my analogy is flawed a bit as well as the LA's were originally GIVEN away to someone for work done.
Nothing was stolen, so the laptop in my analogy would have been given away as a prize in a contest maybe?
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Practically, let's say a shop sells a not-for-sale prototype laptop by mistake.

What happens next depends on agreements and who's the owner of it. Let's say every store got one of those, and they were going to be sold after Campaign, anyway: The store would probably take the loss for the property of it.

On the other hand, let's say the prototype computer is really valuable, and in fact is owned by the manuafacturer and onlt lent out to the shop. Then, probably, the shop will get sued by the manufacturer. The store will probably having some kind of Insurance (covering eployees neglects), though the manufacturer will claim the value of the computer, including value for intellectual property.

Let's assume case two; the shop didn't have permission to sell the computer, but it got in the hands of a customer who don't want to return it, and apply it on this case.

Then, MA will say to fatal: "We will enable the land areas". To Narfi, "You sold land areas you didn't have right to. We have re-instated these and as compensation we want a sum that correspons to recently created land areas, 100k ped/each, unless you can convince your customer to surrender the land areas voluntarily"
 
Marius said:
That is between myself and Narfi... And it is irrelevant to this topic really. Price is not the issue but in fact how it has all been handled by the parties involved and MA.
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Well, since you got them for free. An honest person would work to reverse all the trades, narfi to fatal, you to narfi, and nobody looses anything.

That was my point.

An honest person, of course.
 
Doer said:
Well you're not aware of the entire chain, then. At some point they were exchanged outside of EU. There's also the additional problem of the original exchange being in return for services, and the fact it ends with a PP that is defunct. No, there's no workable way to reverse the whole chain at this point.
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And this, is what has been my problem here.
 
aia said:
......

Let's assume case two; the shop didn't have permission to sell the computer, but it got in the hands of a customer who don't want to return it, and apply it on this case.

Then, MA will say to fatal: "We will enable the land areas". To Narfi, "You sold land areas you didn't have right to. We have re-instated these and as compensation we want a sum that correspons to recently created land areas, 100k ped/each, unless you can convince your customer to surrender the land areas voluntarily"
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I think you are confusing me with the planet partner..... and you are saying what I already recommended to MA in support case when this first came to light, as well as what I have suggested in this thread.
 
Marius said:
During this time I was given the land area deeds by one of his employees (Meg) and was told by her that they should be working soon and to start hosting events there.
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So were you given the deeds to perform a specific function (as the bolded part obviously implies) or as a payment for services rendered (as some people on this thread have optimistically assumed)?
 
Marius said:
MA should never have just removed the deeds from Fatal. Again it is a very simple and easy fix for them and might have brought some life to a plane that is pretty much just eating up server space for them. But no they chose to handle things in a disruptive way and cause havoc in the game.

Also to make it clear again NeverDie had NOTHING to do with these deeds at all… It was all David Post (thru Meg) and me…

-Enzo Marius Romanus
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MA have never been the best communicators, although I can understand why they pulled the LA deeds. By pulling them it stops the issue growing any worse. This stops more re-sales and more mess to sort out.

They (MA) probably intend to sort out the finances too, once they have all the facts. It sounds to me a senior MA manager gave a member of staff authority to pull the deeds from inventory, whilst facts are collected.

I would not be surprised if MA will contact those involved in the morning, although it probably would have been wise to send a comfort message to the current deed holder explaining why the deeds were removed.

Point is we don't know what MA's plans are for NI. If they choose to shut down the planet, having active LA's will give them a massive headache. Also they might intend to sell the planet, again having active LA's might create sales problems for future PP owner.

Not to mention players have bought expensive LA's for unrealistic prices, all of it is spells trouble.

So I would say, calm down and see what Ma says tomorrow.

NN

Rick
 
Not picking sides, just see a series of unfortunate events that could (should) have been prevented by both seller and buyer.

I still have this question though if buyer did know the deeds were (bugged) with no idea about being approved, fixed ect. why did the deal still go on? (especially outside of EU, knowing MA in no way could track the deal to begin with if something occurred.)
 
Marius said:
That is between myself and Narfi... And it is irrelevant to this topic really. Price is not the issue but in fact how it has all been handled by the parties involved and MA.
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Edit: found answer above
 
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RickEngland said:
MA have never been the best communicators, although I can understand why they pulled the LA deeds. By pulling them it stops the issue growing any worse. This stops more re-sales and more mess to sort out.
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If that is indeed the case (and it could very well be) it would have been nice if they would have told both Narfi and Fatal about their plan to solve it all.
 
aia said:
Any trades doing outside of the trading window, are at "your" own risk.
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Yes at your own risk, not illegal or against the EULA. So still a proper sale (even thought on the EU logs is shows as a gift) and still no reason to take them away from Fatal.
 
Haruto Rat said:
So were you given the deeds to perform a specific function (as the bolded part obviously implies) or as a payment for services rendered (as some people on this thread have optimistically assumed)?
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Yes I was given the deeds to provide a service once they worked and for my assistance in the early stages of NI's birth. To help promote the planet and myself for that matter as I would have been the owner and investing in the LA's. They became mine.

If only I still had communication from in game and email all those years ago between Meg and myself about the deeds. But that email is long gone and no chat log anymore from in game since I have gone thru a few computers since then.
 
aia said:
Any trades doing outside of the trading window, are at "your" own risk.
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You completely took that out of context.
Not what either of us meant.
 
aia said:
Practically, let's say a shop sells a not-for-sale prototype laptop by mistake.

What happens next depends on agreements and who's the owner of it. Let's say every store got one of those, and they were going to be sold after Campaign, anyway: The store would probably take the loss for the property of it.

On the other hand, let's say the prototype computer is really valuable, and in fact is owned by the manuafacturer and onlt lent out to the shop. Then, probably, the shop will get sued by the manufacturer. The store will probably having some kind of Insurance (covering eployees neglects), though the manufacturer will claim the value of the computer, including value for intellectual property.

Let's assume case two; the shop didn't have permission to sell the computer, but it got in the hands of a customer who don't want to return it, and apply it on this case.

Then, MA will say to fatal: "We will enable the land areas". To Narfi, "You sold land areas you didn't have right to. We have re-instated these and as compensation we want a sum that correspons to recently created land areas, 100k ped/each, unless you can convince your customer to surrender the land areas voluntarily"
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You are right, but in this case the shop owner is David Post and not Narfi and the manufacturer of the laptop is MindArk.
 
HardWrath said:
Did MindArk tell you that they were unauthorized and that you could not sell them? MindArk seems pretty adamant that they told someone.
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I was never told by MA support over the countless support cases I submitted that they were unauthorized and I could not sell them.

I was only told to contact DP about them because they showed now record of a transaction in the game for them and that I had to go to him to get them fixed...
 
RickEngland said:
MA have never been the best communicators, although I can understand why they pulled the LA deeds. By pulling them it stops the issue growing any worse. This stops more re-sales and more mess to sort out.

They (MA) probably intend to sort out the finances too, once they have all the facts. It sounds to me a senior MA manager gave a member of staff authority to pull the deeds from inventory, whilst facts are collected.

I would not be surprised if MA will contact those involved in the morning, although it probably would have been wise to send a comfort message to the current deed holder explaining why the deeds were removed.

Point is we don't know what MA's plans are for NI. If they choose to shut down the planet, having active LA's will give them a massive headache. Also they might intend to sell the planet, again having active LA's might create sales problems for future PP owner.

Not to mention players have bought expensive LA's for unrealistic prices, all of it is spells trouble.

So I would say, calm down and see what Ma says tomorrow.

NN

Rick
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These may be the best comments in the whole thread +rep.
 
Angel O2 Mercer said:
Well, since you got them for free. An honest person would work to reverse all the trades, narfi to fatal, you to narfi, and nobody looses anything.

That was my point.

An honest person, of course.
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And I did not get them for free. Yes no ped or money exchanged hands between myself and Meg (DP). But I was on contract with him providing other services of a Community Management nature. So as payment the deeds were also provided to me. Call it out of EU trade but then blame that on the PP for providing me with deeds for services rendered...
 
Svarog said:
the case is closed.
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There is a parable I always think about when dealing with MindArk.....

“In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor respected people. 3 And there was a widow in that same town who kept coming to him and pleading for her rights, saying, ‘Help me against my opponent!’ 4 For a long time the judge refused to act, but at last he said to himself, ‘Even though I don't fear God or respect people, 5 yet because of all the trouble this widow is giving me, I will see to it that she gets her rights. If I don't, she will keep on coming and finally wear me out!’”
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apologizes to those offended by religion, but it is very applicable to the situation.
 
Svarog said:
"Tomorrow"? They pulled them over a week ago, according to the correspondence screenshots. Bet from MA's point of view the case is closed.
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Knowing MA they probably really think that... :/
 
Cail said:
You completely took that out of context.
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I ment in a general sense, not spefically in this case.

Razer said:
Yes at your own risk, not illegal or against the EULA. So still a proper sale (even thought on the EU logs is shows as a gift) and still no reason to take them away from Fatal.
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It's two completely different things.

a) Trade could be considered a gift or a loan. If your avatar gets locked because the item received was part of a scam, or if MA in a rare case do reverse the trade, you shouln't complain.

b) Reason it got taken from Fatal was becase it was not allowed to be traded, it got traded anyhow, and a supportcase was raised about it. It doesn't have anything (directly) to do with any previous out-of-game trade. (And the deal with fatal was a legitemate trade, with item and PEDs changing hands.)
 
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