Bugged Deeds?

Fatal needs a champion in this, I hoped to be, but obviously that did not work out. It really is up to the community to come behind him now and hold MA responsible for what they took from him.

I agree, he does.

We can not allow MindArk to think it's ok to just remove items from player's inventory. It's completely unacceptable because it's not the players' fault that these deeds came into existence. Fast forward some years when MA has Next Island developed and it's time to sell land areas, the same land areas that they just involuntarily took from Fatal. Who will be considered the scammer then? Answer: MindArk

If MindArk keeps those deeds, they forever will forfeit the ability develop NI and sell land on that planet because the community won't forget and the negative backlash will be significant. Along with completely fucking Fatal over in this, MindArk is screwing themselves.... And for what? Because of principle? Because they are trying to make a point? Grow up.

Put the deeds back in Fatal's inventory, allow him to go claim the deeds and put some DNA on those lands if needed. Otherwise give him a natural spawn of something for now if it's not already there. In that scenario everyone wins and some valuable lessons will have been learned.
 
How Narfi got them is unimportant to me and others, now, because the real issue is how these were allowed to exist. We are talking about the fate of a planet.

It's so easy so that you probably didn't Think of it: When the land areas were created, there (probably) wasn't any concept of untradeable items, such as Arctic "medkit" and "universal weapon cells". Only untradable item I know about was mining deeds.

Again, I Think the land areas were created, probably as a "hack", so there would be possible to do things on NI that was availible on other planets that has land areas, like hunting events. As a "hack", it (probably) was only ment as a tool for the planet partner. Now there are a couple of land area deeds ingame, created as a hack by a planet partner. Now let's say you're in the market for land areas, you get land area deeds on a planet which aren't supposed to havel land areas. You wouldn't ask the seller, "are these land deeds legitemate for trading or are they supposed to be managed as a part of planet management?". At least on Narfi's position, getting the land area deed in in the first Place, it would be a very importent question.


A parallell:

Let's say you buy a car on the street. The seller says, "you get the car for half the price for a fast deal. Here are the keys, unfortunately the keys doesn't work to start the car with, but if you Contact the car manufacturer he'll give you a replacement lock so you can use the car". Would it be fishy or not?

The car manufacturer says, "the person you got the car from isn't the owner of the car, it's a rental car. The car has to go back to the rental firm".

Now what's the right option? For the buyer to go back to the seller and claim Money back; or to to the car manufacturer and say "it's mine! now fix the lock so I can drive away with it!".

If a player in underwear would hands you the marcogun or LA66, would you rush to put it in auction?
Or, would you keep it in storage and send a support ticket asking if it's legitemate to keep and/or trade?
 
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So you feel the players should be held financial liable for internal MA<->PP politics??
No, of course not, i think it SHOULD be settled so that the players are happy in the end, that'd be best for players and also for MA.
I'm only trying to look at this from their perspective a bit, and it's not looking good.

Just to be clear this isn't a recent transaction, it has been some two months or so since Fatal bought the deeds.
Yeah i figured these weren't very recent trades, that's why i was worried that the peds you paid to the original seller (if you paid, someone suggested otherwise, not sure, i thought you had handed in peds though).
So the peds you may have paid, are most likely gone, that was my point in my first post about the full reversal.

(which is the only reason I ever mentioned the 6k he owned me, as it had been due before MA decided to remove the deeds and he had not paid me) That is an eternity in here and those peds are long gone into the MA grinder.(only withdrawal I ever made was several years ago) You think it would be ethical to force me to depo against my family's wellbeing this winter because MA changed their tune 2 months after I made a trade, some 2+ years after the first guy had started filing support cases asking for them to be fixed?
Again, i am not here to blame anyones actions, i was just looking at what MA could do about it, since the main culprit is the original seller, and there for the PP (or the Planet owner) should be held responsible of his (current or former) employees/partners actions, who may have gotten the deeds from an outside trade in the first place.

What i'd like to see from this, is that all players (especially the players) will be compensated in the end for correct amount that they spent during this thing, but in this situation it just seems that MA has very little they can do straight ahead.
 
It's so easy so that you probably didn't Think of it: When the land areas were created, there (probably) wasn't any concept of untradeable items, such as Arctic "medkit" and "universal weapon cells".

Again, I Think the land areas were created, probably as a "hack", so there would be possible to do things on NI that was availible on other planets that has land areas, like hunting events. As a "hack", it (probably) was only ment as a tool for the planet partner. Now there are a couple of land area deeds ingame, created as a hack by a planet partner. Now let's say you're in the market for land areas, you get land area deeds on a planet which aren't supposed to havel land areas. You wouldn't ask the seller, "are these land deeds legitemate for trading or are they supposed to be managed as a part of planet management?". At least on Narfi's position, getting the land area deed in in the first Place, it would be a very importent question.


A parallell:

Let's say you buy a car on the street. The seller says, "you get the car for half the price for a fast deal. Here are the keys, unfortunately the keys doesn't work to start the car with, but if you Contact the car manufacturer he'll give you a replacement lock so you can use the car". Would it be fishy or not?

The car manufacturer says, "the person you got the car from isn't the owner of the car, it's a rental car. The car has to go back to the rental firm".

Now what's the right option? For the buyer to go back to the seller and claim Money back; or to to the car rental firm and say "it's mine! now fix the lock so I can drive away with it!".

If a player in underwear would hands you the marcogun or LA66, would you rush to put it in auction?
Or, would you keep it in storage and send a support ticket asking if it's legitemate to keep and/or trade?

I am not saying there is a right solution. I am saying the only reasonable solution is to just make the damn deeds work, since MA left them in game, it is their baby now, and they need to fix it.

You cannot force Narfi to return peds 2 months later, from what now seems to be a fully-informed, arms-length transaction between him and Fatal.

MA CAN, however, fix their error in not removing the unapproved deeds from game, by fixing NI, and fixing these deeds, and by taking responsibility for planets that they allowed into our universe, and THAT is what they should do.

This whole thing just stinks to me, and until MA makes a FAIR decision regarding the fate of these deeds that they allowed to remain in game AND, more importantly, the fate of NI, then I will not be playing, and only logging in to sell shit and manage my auctions.
 
MA should just deposit a nice fat ped settlement to fatal, and lower our HOF rate for a month or 2...its not like they haven't done this for lesser reasons. the only way this is not a valid solution would be if there are tons more of these deeds floating around.

:dear user, we are sorry your in ownership of invalid items, here have this stack of ped. direct from our MA rep avatars playing pocket.
 
This whole thing just stinks to me, and until MA makes a FAIR decision regarding the fate of these deeds that they allowed to remain in game AND, more importantly, the fate of NI, then I will not be playing, and only logging in to sell shit and manage my auctions.


According to this,
firstcaseanswer.jpg

in 23rd of April (4 months ago), at top of box "2014-04-23 15:27"
It says: "... regarding these land areas, and they have told us that these lands were never approved for sale". Also "The avatar who previously owned them ... was also informed about not being Active."

Now, the land areas that aren't approved for sale, were sold anyway. Two months after getting information from support. Would it be right *then* to suddently change the land area status from "not approved for sale" to "market value items"?
 
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According to this,
firstcaseanswer.jpg

in 23rd of April (4 months ago), at top of box "2014-04-23 15:27"
It says: "... regarding these land areas, and they have told us that these lands were never approved for sale". Also "The avatar who previously owned them ... was also informed about not being Active."

Now, the land areas that aren't approved for sale, were sold anyway. Two months after getting information from support. Would it be right *then* to suddently change the land area status from "not approved for sale" to "market value items"?

This was about the first sale (the deeds were never meant to be in circulation). They might have meant something else, but they should have been clear about it and have acted on it. If it was not allowed they should have done something about it when they first got sold (or given) to Neverdie and not now, years later. This is typical Mindark again and they do the same with bugs. Keeping bugs (or items that are not supposed to be in game anyway) in game and banning people that use them. Either fix your crap of let people use it. Goes for bugs and LA deeds.
 
MA should just deposit a nice fat ped settlement to fatal, and lower our HOF rate for a month or 2...its not like they haven't done this for lesser reasons. the only way this is not a valid solution would be if there are tons more of these deeds floating around.

:dear user, we are sorry your in ownership of invalid items, here have this stack of ped. direct from our MA rep avatars playing pocket.

No... There is no reason the player base as a whole should take on the burden of financial responsibility for this. Moreover, there is no reason for MindArk to pay Fatal anything. All that MA has to do is give Fatal his deeds back, allow him to go claim them, and then manage the land.

At this point, after all this time of these deeds existing, it's flat out wrong for MindArk to take them, and it's also wrong for them to continue to go unclaimed.
 
This was about the first sale (the deeds were never meant to be in circulation). They might have meant something else, but they should have been clear about it and have acted on it.

My guess is that after that Narfi got the response, that he would know they are not allowed to be traded, and not pass them on.

It's like, if you get to borrow a computer at your work (that you are allowed to bring home), despite the fact that you are holding the computer in your hand when you walk out the front door, you are not supposed to bring it to a pawn shop or a thrift store even though you technically could. You shouldn't need a nanny with you at any time saying "you are not allowed to sell *that* computer" every time you try something stupid. After all we're all supposed to take some responsibility about items we're supposed to be holding.

What's unclear with "these lands were never approved for sale"?
Something it *could* mean, "two years ago they weren't approved for sale but now it's ok to sell them"?
 
In this case, I think that the players are robbed by PP or by MA staff. Now I'm not sure that my shop on the Next Island (that I bought from Narfi) will not be withdrawn from my inventory, if MA will like that Shop or this Shop been a gift at holyday to PP staff person in the past. In any these case MA or PP MUST give compensation to player, in PED's or items or Deed's (or LA's).

My Shop on NI is partially broken (I cant put any item indoor), Support Cases updated about week ago, but still unanswered. Last reply from Ulf was in July. Last reply gave me hope that Shop will be repaired. But after seeing this thread, i doubt. Shop is claimed (here is a difference with Narfi's LA)

:scratch2:
 
According to this,
firstcaseanswer.jpg

in 23rd of April (4 months ago), at top of box "2014-04-23 15:27"
It says: "... regarding these land areas, and they have told us that these lands were never approved for sale". Also "The avatar who previously owned them ... was also informed about not being Active."

Now, the land areas that aren't approved for sale, were sold anyway. Two months after getting information from support. Would it be right *then* to suddently change the land area status from "not approved for sale" to "market value items"?

Yes, it is clear that Narfi was well aware that those deeds are not approved for sale.
He even got directions how to approach this issue to settle things with NI PP.

Despite that he decided to get rid of problem by selling them to other player
At the same time he misrepresented situation and told buyer that "if you bug MA enough they might fix those deeds", knowing that it would not happen, otherwise he would do that himself or sell deeds for much more.

Am I the only one not blinded by Narfi's reputation and seeing his ill will in this sale?
 
My guess is that after that Narfi got the response, that he would know they are not allowed to be traded, and not pass them on.

It's like, if you get to borrow a computer at your work (that you are allowed to bring home), despite the fact that you are holding the computer in your hand when you walk out the front door, you are not supposed to bring it to a pawn shop or a thrift store even though you technically could. You shouldn't need a nanny with you at any time saying "you are not allowed to sell *that* computer" every time you try something stupid. After all we're all supposed to take some responsibility about items we're supposed to be holding.

What's unclear with "these lands were never approved for sale"?
Something it *could* mean, "two years ago they weren't approved for sale but now it's ok to sell them"?


Well I see that message as "These deeds should not have been in game in the first place." it does not say that Narfi was not allowed to sell them, I mean how can anyone tell someone not to sell something he owns, unless they told them specifically BEFORE they bought it. The fact that after 2 years they still are in game and you are still able to sell them is confirmation that you can sell them. If Narfi was not supposed to sell them they should have put a flag on them making them unable to be sold. They should however never had come into Narfi's possession in the first place, MA should have removed then the minute that David Post gave them to Neverdie (still assuming that this is what happened).

Your analogy with the laptop is wrong, that laptop is not yours and the LA's were Narfi's, he payed for them and was owner for a substantial amount of time, during which he was able to sell them without trouble if he had tried.
 
In this case, I think that the players are robbed by PP or by MA staff. Now I'm not sure that my shop on the Next Island (that I bought from Narfi):scratch2:

Hard to say.

If you have been able to claim it it's probably (techically) legitemate.

But on the other hand, it would be nice to know, if Narfi has been Selling lots of estates on NI, from where they come.

I've seen some shopping booths on NI owned by different players, small houses outside crystal village(?) that has been sold in auction to different players. Then at Club Neverdie, some houses I Think were owned by Neverdie directly, and at Crystal Center and 1st gen arrival houses owned by Next Island Manager (or something like that).

For shops in areas with other shops I wouldn't be too worried. It would be odder if something like Buildings like "Caroline's" would suddently be sold by someone.
 
At this point, after all this time of these deeds existing, it's flat out wrong for MindArk to take them, and it's also wrong for them to continue to go unclaimed.

The reason Mindark takes them is easy, and you can read it here in this thread:

The deeds aren't allowed to be traded, but they got traded anyway. People here doesn't understand that there are items that you might hold on to, but you aren't allowed to trade. And because some people doesn't understand that, the "bugged" items are now removed from game. This way the "bugged" items won't get traded yet Another time by mistake.

It has happened Before MA have reclaimed items - you remeber the first repairable Korss400?

Pretty much the case is this: Narfi had an item, which he in April got informed that it wasn't allowed to be traded, and that it didn't work, and that the previous owner was informed that it didn't work. The item (estate) then, two monts later, was put up for sale, and within a very short time was sold. It was sold with a notice that it was "bugged", but no notice about the status of not being allowed to be traded. Buyer pays (roughly) 50k peds for it (two land areas). When new buyer Contacts support, the item is taken back by MA (because it wasn't ment to be sold in first Place).

Now, what could be done?
If sale is approved, afterwards, (ie enabling "fixing" the land area), it would open up a Pandoras box because of items that planet partners might have, but aren't allowed to sell. What would you say if a planet partner has bee equipping officisals with mod faps, intended for things like events, but suddently those "offical" mod faps will show up in auction sold by the officials?

Another way to see it, is to see at the value being transferred. Maybe not giving back two fully fledged land areas, but let's say two new shops, or something like that. Or two very small land areas. That is, if it is MA that's supposed to stand for the compensation.

Maybe MA needs to take an audit about (previously) offically owned items on Next Island, and check which of them were suposed to be for "offical use", and which of them that were ok to trade.

Again, it would be interesting from whom the items came, if it was "Marius". Or if it was a jumping guy in undies who were pushing stash.

Well I see that message as "These deeds should not have been in game in the first place."
It's not the same thing. For me it's clear that there can be items that are allowed to be ingame, but are not allowed to be sold.

If Narfi was not supposed to sell them they should have put a flag on them making them unable to be sold. They should however never had come into Narfi's possession in the first place, MA should have removed then the minute that David Post gave them to Neverdie (still assuming that this is what happened).

The thing with untradeable items is proabably pretty new. Though, maybe because of this, MA needs to be tougher on applying the "nontradeable" attribute even if it means more work for support. For instance, the "Adviser" vest on arkadia (where it says on description that if they are illegitemately traded MA will pull them back from buyer). There is also a remark on the offical heal chip, but maybe that's a joke.
 
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The main question here is: How do I know whether it is possible to buy?


without consequences....
 
The main question here is: How do I know whether it is possible to buy?


without consequences....

Easy, bomb support for every trade you do & don't do any trades till they explicitly confirm..
They might even do something about this :D
 
The car manufacturer says, "the person you got the car from isn't the owner of the car, it's a rental car. The car has to go back to the rental firm".
It's like, if you get to borrow a computer at your work
What would you say if a planet partner has bee equipping officisals with mod faps, intended for things like events, but suddently those "offical" mod faps will show up in auction sold by the officials?

Your parallels arise from your own assumption that LAs were made by MA as a "hack" for some MA's own purpose and PP was just a holder of deeds. For me much easier to assume that LAs were made a normal way through NI dev-team's request to MA but the dev-team ceased to exist before MA approved those for use. If it was a mere MA's tool like an "official modfap", MA would step in and removed it after the first support case from "Marius", of which he, according to MA, had sent many.

By the way, the concept of non-tradable items did exist back then, NI itself already had implemented items like NIP and other starters stuff.
 
The main question here is: How do I know whether it is possible to buy?


without consequences....
Well seems you can't, unless MA puts and OK TO SELL stamp on all items that are safe to sell


Easy, bomb support for every trade you do & don't do any trades till they explicitly confirm..
They might even do something about this :D

That would be fun for a while :)
 
The main question here is: How do I know whether it is possible to buy?


without consequences....

Suppose you buy an Archon Sword and can not fit an amplifier to it. You file a support case explaining how it is bugged and asking when it will be fixed. Support tells you that it is a Planet Partner issue and to contact them regarding this issue. Since it cant be used you sell the sword to Taco telling him what support told you. Taco files a support case asking for it to be fixed, and support says that NI is in limbo right now but there are plans for development in the near future. Two weeks later Taco discovers the sword has been removed from his inventory and has an email telling him to get his money back from you.....

That is exactly how safe the system is right now. This has deeply damaged my faith in MA, and I have always been one of their most vocal supporters.

How many of you have purchased or sold an Archon sword or similar in the last year?
MA needs to take responsibility for their actions and not drag their players though this.
 
Easy, bomb support for every trade you do & don't do any trades till they explicitly confirm..
They might even do something about this :D

LOL, support dies under SC massive DDOS attack
Seriously, support answer will come in 48 hours if you are lucky, if not - in 2-4 weeks. Your wanted item may be sold and re-sold several times ... without you :laugh:
 
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The main question here is: How do I know whether it is possible to buy?

without consequences....

Well, how would you do if you buy a house or a car from someone; or generally if you're offered a trade from a random person, how would you assess the risk of problem from the trade.

- 1: Be street smart. If someone in underwear and attributes 1,1,1 is Selling a hangar something might be fishy. An IRL car might be stolen and sold with erronous plates.

- 2: Try to check history of item. Try to figure out if previous trade was legitemate. A car that looks nice could have just had a crash and Before that driven 100 000 miles, had 38 owners in last 3 years but been fixed with paint and plastic padding.

- 3: Check if you can use it. (Well, generally.). Do the keys you get for the car fit in the lock. Are you allowed to drive the car or you need a truck permit?

- 4: Is the seller reliable or belong to a "chain" - ie, can you go back to the seller in case there is something wrong, or was the seller Selling from a tent on a parking lot.


Normally, in a case like this, I would say, it's not expected you don't know about the geography of Next Island. But someone who's interested in land areas should make a basic enquirey what land areas there are; and someone like Narfi should really know all the facts, not only by support Contact, but also possibly knowing lots of people ingame (like Neverdie, who owns land areas on NI, this "marius", and possibly also knowing David Post). Pretty much someone "higher up the food chain" could be expected to have more facts than a beginner.
 
give back 44k to fatal and take the money off the poeple pay check in ma office there to slow or dumb to fix things when it show to them there a problem

now every thing we buy we have to check if it a good item



the land deed if the first person that got it for work they did is not worst than people that won item in event

its only fake money they can make ped out of thin air 50k more fake peds are not going to hurt them

the problem they need to go after the rest of the other item that why maybe they took it whit out compasation

because if they give one to you the have to give it to evey one else opening a can of worms

what i can see a group of first graders would know better
 
I'd say, the best thing is to reverse the trades. Period. MA moves the deeds backwards until they end up at whoever created them, and the payment for the deeds is moved "forward".

Well you're not aware of the entire chain, then. At some point they were exchanged outside of EU. There's also the additional problem of the original exchange being in return for services, and the fact it ends with a PP that is defunct. No, there's no workable way to reverse the whole chain at this point.
 
Aia,
I found many pre, I bought from a respectable player with a reputation (not in underpants, lol), I saw the answer of support, with courtesy of the seller, that Shop will be corrected, but in the end he was not fully corrected, as I found. Yes, I know that the New Island is broken, but I hope that it will be repaired. And then I find out that two items (two LA) sold together with my Shop (which I bought) - taken away (read=stolen) by MA. Without compensation. What I must thinking?
 
If selling a deed that doesn't work is wrong, how about thousands of compet deeds that are currently in circulation. It addition to uncertainty that those really get a use one day, compet deed holders should start checking daily if their deeds are still in inventory.
 
How many of you have purchased or sold an Archon sword or similar in the last year?
MA needs to take responsibility for their actions and not drag their players though this.

As soon as I saw this thread I thought of the NI items!
I just tiered my Archon to Tier 6, and would be really, really pissed if ever was taken from me!
 
Suppose you buy an Archon Sword and can not fit an amplifier to it.

There are two Points, maybe:
1) Maybe archon Sword are considered "too eco" or "too fast" to allow an amp to be fitted on it. That it really should be NI only but as it's spread it's allowed globally as an exception

2) Before it can be enabled, a mechanism must be developed to check and properly handle attachments in restricted zones (ie Ancient Greece).


I haven't sent a support ticket for it yet, but I just notice that the enhanced vision goggles doesn't accept armor plates (never has) and this is despite the fact goggles doesn't work at all in AG. Hoplite armor doesn't take plates either. I Think hoplite did for a short period of time, maybe plates got entirely disabled because the attachment check wasn't completely done.

(I got an archon sword. A bit bad tier values, though.)

I could add, there are some non-melee weapons you can't put amplifiers on, for instance the Calypso Appg-1, so NI archon sword isn't the only one. Though, it's not unlikely archon sword will be fixed.
 
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MA needs to take responsibility for their actions and not drag their players though this.

Narfi, I love ya but you need to take a bit of your own advice here. This all started with a shady out of game trade. You should never have sold them even if you did pass the buck to another shady char.
 
And then I find out that two items (two LA) sold together with my Shop

I guess you saw the response: The land areas were (are) not allowed to be traded, and they got removed because they got traded anyway.
 
I guess you saw the response: The land areas were (are) not allowed to be traded, and they got removed because they got traded anyway.

Right, but it appears that MA did not clearly communicate that to Narfi
 
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