Bugged Deeds?

Mercury

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I just read a thread about a guy who purchased some deeds that are bugged. From what I gathered on the thread, they were for Next Island. The thread was closed due to it being filed under the "personal dispute" rule. I have no interest in turning this into a personal dispute between the 2 players in question.

As I understand what happened:

Player A (buyer) & Player B (seller) meet
Player B explained to Player A that some deeds (presumably Next Island) were currently bugged.
Player A still bought the deeds.
*You can say this wasn't very intelligent of Player A

Shortly after, Player B claimed that MA wouldn't ever unbug them and that Player A was told not to sell them due to this fact.
Player A disputes the fact that he paid for worthless merchandise.
Player B claims MA never told him not to sell the deeds.

There were some other side notes to this (full payment still not entirely made, request of rest of funds, denial of rest of funds), but this is just what I gathered from the posts.

If Player A's story is indeed true, MA should indeed render all non-functional area deeds unable to be traded and compensate Player A with either a reversal or PEDS. If Player B's story is indeed true, MA should STILL render all non-functional area deeds to be not traded and compensate BOTH players.

I think this is a huge error in how to solve a bug that is inside of the Entropia Universe. Next Island clearly doesn't give a shit anymore about promoting the game - I know that a company like MindArk wouldn't forget to include a clause about upkeep of Planet Partner's lands. They need a plan in place if they did forget and letting players who don't know any better just waste money on items that are bugged is something they should safeguard against.

I must add to this post, I don't know the details exactly and am going by what I gathered via another thread. If I'm way off base here, please let me know what I've overlooked. Thanks and keep our universe happy!

We walk in the shadows...
 
Well, I guess the first thing is MA should have taken over NI a long time ago and we wouldn't have this problem... but yes if deeds are bugged and going to remain bugged, the owners should be compensated.

It's not just NI... I understand that certain caly shops have been bugged for years... why are these allowed to remain without being fixed/compensated?
 
I agree that the real issue is not about this one trade per se, but about the status of the items themselves - which appear to be just one part of the whole issue of the ongoing development and future of the Next Island PP project.

Clarification of this underlying issue by either the PP or MindArk would lead to more certainty and stability for the player community. With the return of staff from summer breaks, it would be helpful if we could see more communication about this.
 
'Personal disputes' aside, MA acted very unethically in this situation.
 
Just a note Serica, and I will make a note to stop championing it, this isn't a personal dispute at this point.

Someone sold deeds to Narfi and it was not approved or functional - problem #1, MA should have stepped in and took care of that. But they didnt.

Narfi knowing this sold them anyway (when he was told they weren't approved for sale) - problem #2 and illegal to the EULA. This is EXTREMELY suspect.

Fatal bought the deeds on the risk, which isn't smart - problem #3 (also illegal to the EULA because they weren't approved for sale).

The gentlemen's thing to do is for the trade to be reversed and Narfi compensated from the planet partner's violation. If you don't, this will backfire and I think Narfi's rep will be hurt the most.

Based on what I know and a copy of the support cases, there is a whole lot of shadyness, theft, and lack of business sense. I strongly suggest this get resolved appropriately before everyone gets tainted, quite possibly including those that wish to shut this up.
 
How is it that a failing planet partner (Next Island) managed to create and then sell unauthorized Land Area deeds to players fully knowing that MindArk did not support them, would not allow them, and would not make them functional?

Furthermore.. why didnt MindArk step in much sooner and take these deeds?
 
MA is negligent here, in allowing those deeds to remain in game.

Their negligence can be somewhat rebutted if they in fact told Narfi NOT to sell them, (why they left them in game after that is beyond me), however we dont know exactly what was said yet, and by leaving them in game, they opened the door for worthless items to be sold under the guise of "maybe someday being worth something".

Yes the risk is on buyer, but if affirmative statements were made by MA regarding these deeds being unsellable, worthless, and forever unusable, and MA still allowed those items to remain in game, then for them to escape culpability because the sale of said deeds occurred "outside of game and therefore all trades are final" is wrong. It is akin to knowing money is counterfeit, and giving it away. There is no reason whatsoever those deeds should have been in game the second after Narfi or anyone else notified them of such.

If MA and anyone else knew that these were NOT sellable, worth anything, and would not ever be, then there is a very high likelihood that this will become a very, very large fiasco...
 
Anyone have any info on when and how these deeds were issued? cant remember NI ever holding a auction for them.
 
MA is negligent here, in allowing those deeds to remain in game.

Their negligence can be somewhat rebutted if they in fact told Narfi NOT to sell them, (why they left them in game after that is beyond me), however we dont know exactly what was said yet, and by leaving them in game, they opened the door for worthless items to be sold under the guise of "maybe someday being worth something".

Yes the risk is on buyer, but if affirmative statements were made by MA regarding these deeds being unsellable, worthless, and forever unusable, and MA still allowed those items to remain in game, then for them to escape culpability because the sale of said deeds occurred "outside of game and therefore all trades are final" is wrong. It is akin to knowing money is counterfeit, and giving it away. There is no reason whatsoever those deeds should have been in game the second after Narfi or anyone else notified them of such.

If MA and anyone else knew that these were NOT sellable, worth anything, and would not ever be, then there is a very high likelihood that this will become a very, very large fiasco...

People have collected all sorts of things ingame that have no current use in the hope of them "maybe someday being worth something". Old hangar parts, current hangar deeds, just to name a couple.

But the thought that crossed my mind on reading this was about some similarities with The Egg.

At the time it was looted (2005?), there was no suggestion that it was more than a pretty 'trophy'.
Neverdie paid a large premium for it in the hope of it "maybe someday being worth something".
It was speculated about for years on forums that MA might create a further event from it, although they were under no obligation to do so. Finally Neverdie sold it via public auction to Deathifier for an even huger premium.
And in the end (given that the Feffox DNA remains unused, and Calypso PP have created huge untaxed spawns of all maturities), probably not worth the price paid.

I don't recall that anyone has ever suggested that the sale of the Egg in either instance was a scam or that MA should have prevented it though. :scratch2:
 
The main difference is that MA never removed the egg from the owners inventory without his permission.


.......or wait..... didn't they?
 
What I kind of found odd was that they were being sold again and that as soon as he posted the thread (https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?263328-Land-Shop-Ships-and-Items) selling the deeds that someone bought them in like a day's time? I was almost thinking something was going fishy here since I would have guessed that no one would have bought them so fast..but looking at this thread it seems that someone did. But then again, this is just a post from another thread so the question is..did someone actually buy them?
 
People have collected all sorts of things ingame that have no current use in the hope of them "maybe someday being worth something". Old hangar parts, current hangar deeds, just to name a couple.

But the thought that crossed my mind on reading this was about some similarities with The Egg.

At the time it was looted (2005?), there was no suggestion that it was more than a pretty 'trophy'.
Neverdie paid a large premium for it in the hope of it "maybe someday being worth something".
It was speculated about for years on forums that MA might create a further event from it, although they were under no obligation to do so. Finally Neverdie sold it via public auction to Deathifier for an even huger premium.
And in the end (given that the Feffox DNA remains unused, and Calypso PP have created huge untaxed spawns of all maturities), probably not worth the price paid.

I don't recall that anyone has ever suggested that the sale of the Egg in either instance was a scam or that MA should have prevented it though. :scratch2:



I have just reviewed a copy of the response from MA and if it is a true copy, and what MA says in this response purports to be true, then your analogy is wrong. There is a major difference between not knowing if someday "something may be worth something" and knowing for a FACT it is not worth anything, and yet still making it seem like it is "unclear" if they my be worth something in the future.

From MA's recent response...

MA clearly told Narfi the deeds were worthless AND were NOT to be sold.

Narfi did not seem to disclose this, and said simply they don't work as of now, and there is no guarantee they would be worth something in the future. It is VERY MISLEADING, to leave it open to future potential AFTER being CLEARLY told they are worth zero and are NOT to be sold.

I am still in the process of reviewing all the evidence, but as it sits, I believe MA is negligent in leaving the deeds in game, and the seller is on the hook for fraud. That being said, because the sale took place out of the game, MA is trying to wash their hands of it.

I considered Narfi a friend for a while now, and frankly I would be apt to defend him in this matter, but as much as I want to defend him, I cannot, after seeing the response from MA.

Unfortunately, I have seen enough at this point to make my decision on the matter as to who is at fault. It is NOT Fatal, (a person I do not know, and whom I do not think I have ever even spoken to) Regardless of whether Fatal did or did not do his due diligence, someone sold something that MA said NOT to sell. That itself is the only point that matters.

By doing this, I believe he acted in bad faith, NO MATTER WHAT STATEMENTS WERE MADE TO FATAL, and fraudulently, if he did not tell Fatal that these were indeed worthless and unusable per MA, and always would be, and per MA's request, not to be sold.

I wish this wasn't the case, because I respected him a lot, and would love to be proven to that MA is lying or misstating what they told Narfi, and/or would love to see that Narfi did in fact tell Fatal that MA said these deeds were worthless and unusable, would always be, and were NOT to be sold, but as of now, I don't think that has happened.

[editted pending the final outcome of this matter]
 
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Questions:

1. Who sold the deeds to Narfi?
2. How did these deeds get introduced into the game in the first place.

It really seems like a lot of dirty dealing has been done right down the chain of people here, starting with the PP. Someone had to create those deeds and introduce them. As far as I know, NI didnt have a Land Area sale. Where did they come from?
 
Questions:

1. Who sold the deeds to Narfi?
2. How did these deeds get introduced into the game in the first place.

It really seems like a lot of dirty dealing has been done right down the chain of people here, starting with the PP. Someone had to create those deeds and introduce them. As far as I know, NI didnt have a Land Area sale. Where did they come from?

Well, NI does have the land areas just that they were bugged and the NI team were taking their time working on them almost like with the apartments that never got built up till the last months they were let go.
 
MA has been negligent with their lack of communication on the state and future of NI... regardless of what went on behind the scenes in this particular case (we don't have the whole story there, no matter how it may look from a few clippings of support cases).

Let's have some improved communication and action from MA regarding bugged deeds, whether they are land areas or shops.

And let's also have more responsible actions from Planet Calypso regarding the investments they have offered... the egg/feffox DNA and Crystal Palace fiascos... this kind of undermining of investors/land owners does not promote the image of a PP that cares about its players.
 
Damn planet partner avatars acting as participants in the 'real cash economy' screwing things up again... sounds very similar to what happened on Rocktropia a while back with some booths...??? Hopefully Mindark will fix this up pretty soon since having bad deeds floating around in the RCE that should not be there is "just plain bad."

Only time will tell if this is another instance where Mindark broke the promise that, " Both Planet Partners and the participants on the planets should always feel safe in their endeavors in Entropia Universe."
 
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Well neverdie participating, looting mobs, playing as a regular user while ALL OTHER officials main accounts are frozen per PP agreement is a whole other story that needs further discussion but not on this thread.

Neverdie getting an ATH from his bananas is a major issue along with the looting of players in space some years back as a planet partner.
 
someone sold something that MA said NOT to sell. That itself is the only point that matters.

Lynch parties are always disgusting.

There is no reason this thread should have gone this far, and there is no reason I should have to explain myself.
You are taking one side of a story and 'passing judgment' Which is exactly the intent behind these series of threads. (Slander)

Months and months ago I filed support cases asking for the LAs to be fixed and explained in detail what was needed with each one. (which I also showed to Fatal)

Support hemmed and hawed for some time and then blew me off with the following statement,
We have received a reply from our team regarding these land areas, and they have told us that these lands were never approved for sale.

The avatar who previously owned them, had ongoing support cases and he was also informed about not being active. Please contact Marius to see if you guys can settle this with David Post.

I already knew that the previous owner had filed support cases and tried to get the bugs fixed without success.
I did not know that they were not originally intended for sale, but that did not change or effect their current status in the game.
I knew that Post was not actively doing anything with NI and that there was no team working on it and so it was 'in limbo'
They did NOT say that I should not have them, and they did NOT say I could not sell them.
All of this was shared with Fatal at the time of the sale(as well as in the sales thread when first posted)

Note: Support at this same time fixed the bugs to the Shop there which I purchased from the same person in the same deal and sold within a day or so of when I sold these deeds to fatal.

Fatal and I both knew that it was a long term (years) risk, and that many support cases would need to be filed over the years to patiently get the fixed done that needed for them to work.

2014-07-08 02:26:12 [FROM: fatall-fatal fatal fatal] you cant get them to help u out?
2014-07-08 02:26:24 [TO : fatall-fatal fatal fatal] well support said to contact the Planet Partner
2014-07-08 02:26:29 [TO : fatall-fatal fatal fatal] who is David Post
2014-07-08 02:26:35 [TO : fatall-fatal fatal fatal] so right now it is in limbo
2014-07-08 02:27:01 [FROM: fatall-fatal fatal fatal] not cool

2014-07-08 03:39:01 [FROM: fatall-fatal fatal fatal] for me they are both the same its a risk that you took and now its a risk that i will have to take and hope i make out or i will have to sell at a los

One of the first replies he received from support,
On 2014-07-23 13:46:28 SUPPORT replied:
Hi fatal,

Next Island is in a sort of limbo right now, however there are a lot of future plans for Next Island but that is also why things are going slow right now, they are not doing a lot of work before they can do all of it if you understand.

I will continue to push your issue forward.

Kind regards,
Ulf | Entropia Universe Support



I had already given Fatal all of this information, so he knows I didn't do anything wrong.
I had filed support cases on his behalf requesting they give him back his deeds and fix them, or refund him what he paid for them and bill Post directly for it. (Issues between MA and PPs should not involve the players)
I had also requested they retract the lie they were telling him about me but they did not.

Knowing I was trying to help him in support cases (I sent Fatal a copy each one I filed) he decided to get aggressive with me which took away my motivation to help him. And so I filed another response to my support case telling MA that they could close it, I no longer wished to Lobby for him.

My conscience is clear. If you wish to tacosmash someone, you should direct it towards MA who did in fact screw Fatal over.

I should not have to answer to you, and this thread should not even exist in the context it does.
You have dealt with me enough to know my character, and so has a majority of the people here, if you feel I did something wrong, then I have even less desire to interact with you than you may with me.

narfi
 
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for what its worth, I think the basic conceptual difference here is that narfi claims

"They did NOT say that I should not have them, and they did NOT say I could not sell them."

while MindArk says they have asked him not to sell it away.

To be fair Narfi, If MA tells me that they had asked you not to sell it , then I would be pretty pissed about it too. So technically, I cant find myself to blame fatal for losing it. He is getting to hear two opposite stories from people he thinks/thought were credible. I seriously doubt anyone else would react differently.

So as of now my opinion is , if Narfi was told not to sell then this was an extremely bad move from him. On the other end, if this was not communicated and the project was just in "limbo" state, then i cant really fault Narfi for the deal. Then it was a risk fatal took and lost and there are plenty of evidences of such risks we take both in game and in real life.

I have no clue how to determine who is at fault as i cant see how we can get the aforementioned information without MA coming out with a statement or something. Perhaps someone else has a better suggestion..

Also, I would like to know how did these deeds get to you Narfi, as i never saw anything come up for sale till i saw your thread. Took me a bit by surprise because the only LA i knew in NI belonged to Neverdie and if i remember correctly was part of agreement between ND and David Post with regards to the development of NI. Perhaps you can give more insight as to how the deeds got to u and which LA did it exactly entail ??

My 2 cents,

Divinity
 
taco i am not impressed at your conclusions in this case. Narfi told Fatal what the deal was with the deeds. Fatal made a conscience decision to buy the deeds knowing that they were bugged.

If he wishes to assume the risk, that is his business.

If the deeds shouldn't have been put out there, fine. Let MA own up to it.

Just like the stock market, you can bet the farm on a penny stock, and either you go boom or bust.
 
I agree Divinity except that Fatal and I have been in daily communication for more than a week, so he had copies of what MA had originally told me as well as my responses to them. I feel bad for him but I can't allow him to bully me.

I purchased them from someone that had done work for NI back when it was in development.
It was my understanding they had been given to him as payment for services rendered.
 
Sounds like mindark has some serious cleanup to do as well as decide the fate of NI.
 
Sounds like mindark has some serious cleanup to do as well as decide the fate of NI.

This isnt the first thing that MA screwed up and it sure as hell wont be the last...
 
In no way was I putting down Narfi about this just that I found it odd that someone would and did buy into this known risk.

At the end I know that these deeds will be fixed and working before we get our CLD and Compet projects completed.
 
Odd isnt the right word. Risky is.

Risk can give you a huge advantage or risk a huge loss.

For example people that swap cards for money buy cars all the time not knowing if they fire or not. Guess what, if they arent sure they fire, they pay less for em.

If they fire, hey good news. If it doesnt, well you have a car to scrap for parts.

Either way the point is, everyday on this planet someone takes a risk others are not willing to take.

However you need to have the balls to swallow a failure if the risk doesn't pan out. In this particular case thats not happening, and that sure as hell isnt Narfi's fault.

(For everyone else watching at home a little piece of advice... Just because you dont have the stones to do something in life, means the guy behind you just might.)
 
Lynch parties are always disgusting.

There is no reason this thread should have gone this far, and there is no reason I should have to explain myself.
You are taking one side of a story and 'passing judgment' Which is exactly the intent behind these series of threads. (Slander)

I do know your reputation, and I would never slander it. Slander is saying something that is a lie about someone, and the person saying it KNOWS its a lie. In this case, it would be called Libel actually, because it is written, not said, but the same rules apply.

Repeating what MA said about telling you not to sell those deeds is therefore not either slander or libel. I did not repeat something recklessly, something I knew was a lie, I simply repeated what was said in a document that you also possess.

If MA was unclear with you, and their recent response (that you were also sent a copy of) is a lie, then I will definitely retract my statement.

As of now, all I have seen is one copy of that statement. Seeing that you have the other copy, I would politely ask you to copy it into this thread, so I know that the one I read is authentic.

I would love to be wrong and eat my words...but afaic, MA is saying they said not to sell, and you are saying they didn't. MA knows their support cases can go public. I find it hard to believe they would risk their credibility by lying about what they told you.

You either need to prove what they said is a lie, or remain on the hook for selling a worthless item that you were told by MA not to sell. It is cut and dry what the issue is. Either show that they lied in their statement to you and Fatal, or admit you sold something that they told you not to sell.

I understand it is human nature to want to remove ones self from a bad business decision by any means possible, and that a good mans vision can get clouded during such an endeavor. And quite possibly MA did not help matters when you contacted them during your ownership by them being unclear, or non responsive, but as of now, MA made an affirmative statement that you were told not to sell them. And IF that is true, I truly do believe you acted in bad faith. I want you to prove me wrong, though.

I would much rather catch MA lying, than tarnish a good persons reputation.

Show me MA lied in that response. Please.
 
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"tacosmash post"

seems clear to me that the buyer was made aware of the problems with these deeds and decided to take the risk anyway. hoping as so many of us do that he found an opportunity or a break in this game to finally be successful monetarily in this game. if it had worked out and he could doubled his money on it, he would have been ecstatic and we would congratulate the hell out of him for taking the risk and winning.

however, as what happens 99% time in this game, all our dreams turn to crap

taco you have no moral high ground and no authority to judge this transaction. MA does and they have shown a startling amount of action recently to right what once went wrong. so, we will have to wait and see
 
As of now, all I have seen is one copy of that statement. Seeing that you have the other copy, I would politely ask you to copy it into this thread, so I know that the one I read is authentic.

I have also seen this communication from MindArk to Narfi and Fatal where MA specifically say that Narfi was told to not sell it. I would like to see your copy of that email Narfi.

I have a lot of respect for you and consider you a friend. I want to see this cleared up.

Who exactly did you get the NI Land Area deeds from in the first place?

I purchased them from someone that had done work for NI back when it was in development.
It was my understanding they had been given to him as payment for services rendered.
 
seems clear to me that the buyer was made aware of the problems with these deeds and decided to take the risk anyway. hoping as so many of us do that he found an opportunity or a break in this game to finally be successful monetarily in this game. if it had worked out and he could doubled his money on it, he would have been ecstatic and we would congratulate the hell out of him for taking the risk and winning.

however, as what happens 99% time in this game, all our dreams turn to crap

taco you have no moral high ground and no authority to judge this transaction. MA does and they have shown a startling amount of action recently to right what once went wrong. so, we will have to wait and see

You don't understand my point. And to be fair, you probably haven't read MA's response yet, because if you did, you would see that MA said they will do nothing because the sale took place outside of game. It is not about either person taking a risk. It is about what avatars were told or not told by MA.

That is where I am going with this whole thing.

In the end, it was solely MA's fault for leaving them in game, and expecting the holder of them to just hang them on the wall of their apartment and never sell them.

MA was the cause of this, and MA needs to be the solution.

If I believe Narfi, and he is right, then MA is about to be burdened with getting caught in a bold faced lie. I think they would rather choose to fix this situation (and maybe even NI too), than be proven to be a liar and therefore all parties win. And if they don't do anything, then this lie would be possibly the biggest breach of trust this game has ever endured.

If I believe MA, and MA is telling the truth, then we all get to see how MA will react when people sell property in this game that they did not have a right to sell (including a PP), and the legal ramifications and in-game ramifications of that are important. We will also get to see how MA handles themselves when faced with the fact that there are items in-game that "were not approved by MA and were not to be sold" (MA's exact words), and there too, the legal ramifications are massive. If MA is allowing items to be introduced that they will refuse to acknowledge, we, as players, need to know this.
 
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Questions:
1. Who sold the deeds to Narfi?
2. How did these deeds get introduced into the game in the first place.

I asked in the Selling thread, but I didn't get any answer there either. I just got told that they were sold already.

Edit: answer was here
I purchased them from someone that had done work for NI back when it was in development.
It was my understanding they had been given to him as payment for services rendered.

My guess of the original source would be NEVERDIE ,)

Who has them now?

Anyway, it was said in the Selling thread that the deeds *were* bugged, so the problem is beween the deed holder(s) and MA. Status of the deeds like like the "egg".

Edit: hm, thing might be hard to solve. If MA do fix this, it means that they will approve land areas that were created "without permissions".
 
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