Bugged Deeds?

And I did not get them for free. Yes no ped or money exchanged hands between myself and Meg (DP). But I was on contract with him providing other services of a Community Management nature. So as payment the deeds were also provided to me. Call it out of EU trade but then blame that on the PP for providing me with deeds for services rendered...

Well, those deeds look totally like work assets to me. Unless the contract specifies that the deeds are part of your retribution they are work assets, and you were not supposed to sell them.

What would happen if I sell the laptop I was given at my job, damn... I would probably get fired or worse.

But I don't know the whole story, that's for sure. I just feel super bad for the last guy to join the rodeo, who paid a ton and he is the only one left with nothing in his hands (for now atleast).

:(
 
A great big mess here from which all I can conclude is that everyone awaits MA's response.

Bugged illegal Land Areas on one side and players thinking said LA's are worth $ on the other side.

Further discussions on this subject until MA's response are pointless I believe..wait it out guys(yes I know MA's slow but MA doesn't read the forums much anyway... saying they've not responded in a week when they take 3 months to submit a withdrawal ...you get my point)
 
If those deeds are rendered useless by MA (remove planet) how will they reimburse a transaction made outside the game?

Still can't wrap my head around how this deal could have ever been made.

If i buy a broken tv and get told it will be fixed eventually, will i buy the tv and sit on it till then, or rather wait for the obvious.
 
If those deeds are rendered useless by MA (remove planet) how will they reimburse a transaction made outside the game?

Still can't wrap my head around how this deal could have ever been made.

If i buy a broken tv and get told it will be fixed eventually, will i buy the tv and sit on it till then, or rather wait for the obvious.

If the TV is worth 5000 dollar when working and you buy it for 50 dollar broken, you might wanna take the gamble, which is what Narfi and Fatal did, not knowing the TV would just vanish after a while.
 
If those deeds are rendered useless by MA (remove planet) how will they reimburse a transaction made outside the game?

Still can't wrap my head around how this deal could have ever been made.

If i buy a broken tv and get told it will be fixed eventually, will i buy the tv and sit on it till then, or rather wait for the obvious.

They don't have to reverse any transactions, all they have to do is make the land areas functional.

I really find it hard to believe that NI would have distributed these Land Areas knowing that they never could be used and were "unauthorized"

I suspect there was a breakdown in communication between MA and NI regarding these Land Areas
 
I really find it hard to believe that NI would have distributed these Land Areas knowing that they never could be used and were "unauthorized"
As i understood, it was either an old employee, or an old associate/partner, anyway, a person that was an affiliate of NI, who got the LA's as a payment (after they ran out of money and couldn't pay in cash anymore, or just as an an incentive.)
 
They don't have to reverse any transactions, all they have to do is make the land areas functional.

I really find it hard to believe that NI would have distributed these Land Areas knowing that they never could be used and were "unauthorized"

I suspect there was a breakdown in communication between MA and NI regarding these Land Areas

The thing is they can't reverse any transactions even if that would solve it because there were never any made inside the game. (beside the deeds being handed over between buyer and seller)

If they decide to shut down NI they can do that without any concequences for them.
 
These may be the best comments in the whole thread +rep.

thank you

And I did not get them for free. Yes no ped or money exchanged hands between myself and Meg (DP). But I was on contract with him providing other services of a Community Management nature. So as payment the deeds were also provided to me. Call it out of EU trade but then blame that on the PP for providing me with deeds for services rendered...

Just because you were allegedly unfairly treated by the PP regarding payment of your services to them, doesn't assume you can claim LA's as your own. Especially since these were provided as an employee trade in going about your duty for the benefit of the PP owner. Did make me smile though reading this, not a bad attempt at clutching at straws....lol.

"Tomorrow"? They pulled them over a week ago, according to the correspondence screenshots. Bet from MA's point of view the case is closed.

Worse communication than I thought then. MA probably a little pissed the trade took place, I wonder if stables will be implemented on RT last? On the other hand I can't blame Naf for unloading a risk. But it's all wrong and needs to be corrected. Maybe there was a reason Naf won that mothership, maybe recompense for paying for dead deeds. Or the reason MA allowed enough globals on an LA so he won that (nothing works by accident, any big investors is well aware of that).

MA works in mysterious ways.

Well the whole community is aware now, so I guess we should expect some answers pretty soon. I also expect Ma to behave in the manner and ethics of a global business. Which is the reason for the OP (JSM) posting in the place :p
 
And I did not get them for free. Yes no ped or money exchanged hands between myself and Meg (DP). But I was on contract with him providing other services of a Community Management nature. So as payment the deeds were also provided to me. Call it out of EU trade but then blame that on the PP for providing me with deeds for services rendered...

You point finger to blame PP but it was you who accepted that form of payment. Therefore you are guilty the same as PP.


Also you mentioned you don't play game, yet you rather quickly came here to write your side of story.

Where were you when MA told Narfi to contact you about those deeds?
Did he contacted you or just tried to find naive buyer to get rid of problem?
If he did contacted you after getting such instructions from MA's support, what was your reaction?
 
The thing is they can't reverse any transactions even if that would solve it because there were never any made inside the game. (beside the deeds being handed over between buyer and seller)

If they decide to shut down NI they can do that without any concequences for them.

As I said, there is no reason to reverse the transaction. Also, it would be foolish to shut down NI. It can easily be incorporated into the fold of existing planets and function as a simple "outpost" to Calypso. As it sits now, it's a functional planet and with minimal development, it can be revenue positive if it's not already.

Having active land area owners driving traffic and keeping people interested goes a long way.

Just return the deeds and activate them!!!
 
Well, those deeds look totally like work assets to me. Unless the contract specifies that the deeds are part of your retribution they are work assets, and you were not supposed to sell them.

What would happen if I sell the laptop I was given at my job, damn... I would probably get fired or worse.

But I don't know the whole story, that's for sure. I just feel super bad for the last guy to join the rodeo, who paid a ton and he is the only one left with nothing in his hands (for now atleast).

:(

In your job, you are paid a wage for the work you do and the laptop is provided to help you perform those duties. In Marius' case, his wage was the ownership of the deeds in question. That's how I see this.

MA had years to deal with these two deeds prior to them being bought by Narfi and then Fatal. If the deeds were illegal and shouldn't have been in game, MA should have dealt with it when NI was abandoned by the PP. The right thing for MA to do is fix the LA and give back the deeds to Fatal.
 
thank you

Just because you were allegedly unfairly treated by the PP regarding payment of your services to them, doesn't assume you can claim LA's as your own. Especially since these were provided as an employee trade in going about your duty for the benefit of the PP owner. Did make me smile though reading this, not a bad attempt at clutching at straws....lol.

Did I ever once mention that I was unfairly treated? In fact I was treated very well while helping out on NI. As it was my understanding yes they were given to me as payment for my services and I was happy to take them because it meant that I could have tried to get the ball rolling on NI and play more myself. And at that point they became mine. Like someone has said if someone you worked for paid you in an item like a watch or computer for your services then at that point does that item not become yours to do with as you please? If no then one day i would love to have you work for me so that I can pay you in something and then when our time together has ended I can get back everything I gave you. ;)
 
Also you mentioned you don't play game, yet you rather quickly came here to write your side of story.

Where were you when MA told Narfi to contact you about those deeds?
Did he contacted you or just tried to find naive buyer to get rid of problem?
If he did contacted you after getting such instructions from MA's support, what was your reaction?

Yes I do not play anymore but am still a part of this whole process. I saw this topic today and wanted to join in with my accounts of what took place from my end. Narfi and I have been in contact since in attempts to help MA get these LA's fixed when he still had the deeds. He then told me he sold them. Then all this stuff started happening and Narfi has come to me asking for details about my support cases with MA and what their responses were.
 
Thank you Marius for coming into the conversation and providing more information. I don't think we can do much more in this thread except to ask MA to s*it or get off the pot. We need to hear from MA.
 
Thank you Marius for coming into the conversation and providing more information. I don't think we can do much more in this thread except to ask MA to s*it or get off the pot. We need to hear from MA.
This!!:yup: ................
 
/mod note/ Up til now, this thread has been in the General Discussion section, but I think should be more correctly located in the Other Planets section, so I've moved it.

Despite receiving more than one request to delete this thread - due to its effect on Narfi's reputation - it will remain open for now as there are still matters being discussed about the trade of ingame items (particularly those from Next Island) that affect overall player confidence in the ingame economy.

I will however summarize the chain of events in this particular instance, so far as I understand them:

1. David Pope, or the NI dev team on his behalf, created land areas to be used for ingame promotional events. There is no suggestion at this point that the land areas would be sold to players in the future.

2. Two deeds for these LA's are apparently placed on Marius' account (MindArk has said there was no ingame trade), to enable him to carry out his contractual role of community development.
[Personal note: the same thing happened with the Calypso Community Adviser avatars who were given 'official clothing' by it being placed directly on the account. Although the adviser account was created in my name, at no time did I ever consider the items on that account to be personally 'mine', as it was created solely for a specific role on request of SDS. When the role ended, I left that account to be terminated and purged, including all items on it.]

3. Marius has said that he was told he could keep the deeds in exchange for services rendered, although there is no mention of the valuation of this transaction. From what he's posted, he appears to have continued to use his 'employee/contractor' account for personal use ingame, following the end of his contractual arrangement.

4. Marius, on winding up his avatar account, sold these deeds to Narfi. The support case shows that MindArk has said that the transaction between Marius and Narfi was carried out (ie the payment was made) outside the game. The value of this transaction has not been disclosed by either party.
The Terms of Use states:
You acknowledge that any transaction regarding Virtual Items, including PED, carried out using any service or system other than one of MindArk’s Approved Transaction systems is at Your own risk. MindArk reserves the right to take any reasonably necessary measures for the purpose of preventing and acting against frauds and non-Approved Transactions, including, but not limited to, making a reservation against a suspected Transaction, and Banning and/or Terminating a directly or indirectly involved Account, if MindArk determines that the transaction was not performed in compliance to this Agreement.
It is therefore a 'non-approved' transaction, and carried out at Narfi's own risk.

Narfi then spent some months trying to convince MindArk Support to legitimize these deeds, by changing their function from 'planet partner item created for community promotional events' to 'ingame asset'.
While MindArk never specifically stated he could not sell the deeds, I thought the support cases shown make it pretty clear that the deeds were never approved to be used as an ingame asset. They apparently allowed the deeds to remain on Narfi's account so that he could continue to negotiate some financial settlement with Marius and/or David Post.

5. Narfi sold the deeds to fatal in an ingame transaction, part of the balance of which is as yet unpaid. Although the deeds were known by fatal to be 'bugged', the chat shows that Narfi convinced fatal that it was a bug that could be fixed if fatal "filed enough support cases".

6. MindArk then removed the deed's from fatal's account - presumably to prevent further sales.


If the above is correct, then as I see it, there's issues appearing at several points:

1. If the deeds were to be 'a payment in lieu' to Marius, then the NI Dev Team had a responsibility to have this approved by MindArk before making the offer.

2. If Marius' account was an official PP employee one, then imho, it should have been kept separate from any personal account, and used only for official purposes. [Note: this may have predated the current understanding about the use of official accounts by PP employees.]

3. In agreeing to transfer funds to Marius outside the game, Narfi implicitly accepted the risk in participating in a 'non-approved transaction' under the Terms of Use. I don't see that he can legitimately pass on that risk to another player, nor can MindArk 'roll back' his transaction with Marius. If fatal can be reimbursed by Narfi (even if that occurs over a period of time for financial reasons), then that would at least reduce the collateral damage of this chain of events.

4. Underlying all this, is the apparent abandonment of Next Island by its Planet Partner (David Post), and the ambiguity this creates over the extent of MindArk's responsibility for the planet's status, assets and future.

Clarity of this final point would go some way to showing how this specific matter might be fully resolved.
 
The day MA ever shuts down a planet, failed or not, that day will be the tipping point for the collapse of this game.

I think it is clear that numerous posters including myself feel that the only viable solution is for MA to honor these deeds, since they knew about them, and didn't care to remove them.

As many other posters said, there is no harm with having some working LA's on a working, fully constructed planet that already exists in this universe. MA needs to decide what parameters those LA's will have, and needs to implement them. As I said before, you have a big beautiful planet ready-made, at your fingertips, and allowing active players to participate or manage LA's on that planet harms NOBODY.

ALL other solutions will not work. All these posts about reversing trades is ridiculous. MA caused it by leaving these unapproved deeds in the game. They need to solve it.

Taking them away is one of the most egregious acts I have ever seen them do. They should NOT be allowed to do that when for years, the turned the other cheek and left them in game.

NI will never disappear. If it does, it will signal the end, there will be a mass sell-off, the economy will collapse, and MA will fold as they are unable to satisfy all the withdrawals. The security of every other planet, and the players there, and the investments they made there, will all be at stake.

Sure, the never-leave-Caly-people might say "so what, what's one less planet...no big deal", but the effect it will have on all the players on other planets, particularly new or sparsely populated planets, will slowly spider-web throughout the universe and become irreversible. Stop saying MA can just shut down NI. They can't, and they know it.

Therefore it makes all the sense in the world to let these deeds exist, and let someone try to do something there that just might generate enough income to cover the planets server costs.


Edit: On another note, I know that pretty much every player that posted in this thread cares a hell of a lot about this game, and many are very substantial investors. I truly hope that MA reads it, and does whats right, understanding that there is a way out of this where nobody loses. I was glad to see Marius make his posts, and feel that almost every post made by everyone else was intelligent. (Except for me jumping the gun, and believing MA's response word for word....won't do that again)

Hell, for a thread to hit 17 pages in 24 hours and have only ONE stupid popcorn post...that in itself is probably an All-Time record. :)

I hope MA reads it and responds, and I will give them plenty of time to do so as I know this stuff takes time. I will be killing 30 hp mobs until then, so hurry up, MA!
 
Last edited:
Not only have MA done nothing wrong here (other than their usual poor communication), but arguably they could be the only party involved who have not committed a criminal offence.
 
Last edited:
I often want to poll people in irl and tell that about the situations we find ourselves involved in within the eu. the reaction I would get from them would tell me how fucking retarded we all are here.
 
Not only have MA done nothing wrong here, but arguably they could be the only party involved who have not committed a criminal offence.

Are you reading the same thread that the rest of us are. :scratch2:
 
mod typo...

just a little typo in the summary...
1. David Pope, or the NI dev team on his behalf, created land areas to be used for ingame promotional events.
 
3. In agreeing to transfer funds to Marius outside the game, Narfi implicitly accepted the risk in participating in a 'non-approved transaction' under the Terms of Use. I don't see that he can legitimately pass on that risk to another player, nor can MindArk 'roll back' his transaction with Marius. If fatal can be reimbursed by Narfi (even if that occurs over a period of time for financial reasons), then that would at least reduce the collateral damage of this chain of events.

Just to point out there was no exchange of funds outside the game. Everything took place inside the game and PED was not traded when I got the deeds from Meg. As for the amount agreed on with Narfi, I still find that to be irrelevant to the discussion.

need to edit this. just need to point out that when i got the deeds I did not pay for them in or out of game.
 
Last edited:
Just a quick question, Marius. Do you believe MA has bad management? :offtopic:

* insert that stupid evil face I can't find * :bomb:

(Just gotta here it from a PP dev lol)
 
Not only have MA done nothing wrong here (other than their usual poor communication), but arguably they could be the only party involved who have not committed a criminal offence.

Don't you think it is wrong that the Deeds has been removed from Fatals possession by MA?
 
Don't you think it is wrong that the Deeds has been removed from Fatals possession by MA?

Harsh, yes.

But wrong, no; as they were removed to the fact due that they had been traded despite the fact they shouldn't have. Even people who are "for" the trade says that the deeds shouln't have been ingame. So, in a way, having the deeds forcibly removed is a consequense of that.

MA caused it by leaving these unapproved deeds in the game

What would be the consequense of keeping and reinstating the land areas?

The sign would be: If you're friend of a planet partner, you're free to buy assets that the planet partner creates for use on the planet, and sell to the market; Land areas, other estates and official items. If you have an item that you are told you are not allowed to sell, and you sell it anyway, there will be no consequences.

For the development of NI, it might cause problem for development if there is a land area owner, if there aren't supposed to be any land area owners besides the "founder" (and possibly are locked due to agreements).
 
Last edited:
So as it stands right now MA putting back the deeds in Fatal's inventory is all that is needed. There was no commitment made by MA or Narfi or anyone that they will be worth anything in the future and as such the gamble that fatal took is his own to look out.
 
So as it stands right now MA putting back the deeds in Fatal's inventory is all that is needed. There was no commitment made by MA or Narfi or anyone that they will be worth anything in the future and as such the gamble that fatal took is his own to look out.

This would be the easiest solution.

Though, there will be the risk that the deeds are traded once again (to someone who doesn't know the story behind them). And, on the other hand, if they are set untradeable then it would not be possible for the involved to manually change it back.

There are solutions to this, but I guess it requires patience. Once solution could be, that the land area deeds are returned but the land areas are removed from map. If Next Island at a Point do get player owned land areas, then new land areas will be re-created matching these deeds. Possbly, that the size or other properties of the land areas will match what's been paid for them. But, again, this requires a firm security that the land area deeds will *not* be traded again until there is a balanced solution.
 
Just to point out there was no exchange of funds outside the game. Everything took place inside the game and PED was traded. As for the amount I still find that to be irrelevant to the discussion.

YAY, now MA has a reason to make the withdrawal time +1 year :yay:
I seriously doubt MA doesn't have specific rules & sanctions for PP's who do shady stuff.
I also believe Narfi & the other buyers should be happy they haven't been banned.
Just imagine getting your hands on marco's gun for a few months & what they would do when they found out..
 
At this moment here I was sitting with two Land Area deeds on a somewhat dead planet. I spent over a year sending in support cases to MA to try and get these working. (BTW from working in the game engine myself for a time the fix needed to make these work again would take less than 2 hours of actual work). I was always told to go speak to DP about getting them working since he was the planet partner. But this still did not work because there was no way to get in contact with DP anymore from my end. I was also NEVER told by MA in my support cases that the deeds were never intended for sale or trade… Just want to make that clear…

-Enzo Marius Romanus

I think after reading through all of this and losing more trust in MA than ever before... the above part of Marius's post is what speaks the most to me. He contacted support over and over???? Years ago??? They didn't remove the deeds then? If they were 'illegal' as they now contend them to be the ONLY question is why were they not removed back then????? MA has NO excuse for this, none, zero, zip, nada can't blame this on Marius, planet partner, Narfi or Fatal. They can only blame themselves. :wise:

I do think the ONLY solution is to return the deeds to Fatal and make the LA's active and Fatal and Narfi finish their deal. :wise::wise::wise::wise::wise:

/rant off
Casay
 
Back
Top