Bugged Deeds?

Just something about MA taking the deeds away:
They took them away so there would not be any more hassle with them, they may be still working to fix it, and may reverse the trade or compensate the parties later, for now they just removed them to not create any more shit with them.
 
Three possible outcomes here:

1. MA does nothing, doesn't return the deeds, doesn't make them functional, and doesn't compensate Fatal. This will cause a lot of people to lose faith, sell, and then withdraw. Do you want to pay for that MA? Actually, it will be the rest of us who remain who will pay for it, wont it?

2. MA compensates Fatal for the deeds with PED... this will indicate to me that MA does not intend to keep Next Island operational long term

3. MA returns the deeds and makes them functional.. this will indicate that MA intends to keep NI alive in some capacity long term.

there's should be only 1

reverse the trade back between narfi and fatal thats it!!
 
Regardless if there was or not, when NI gave those deeds to Marius, MindArk should have intervened then and sent Marius back to David Post and Meg for acceptable payment for services rendered.

But for whatever reason, MindArk did not do that.

I seriously can't believe the how blind some of you other people are. They took away an item that they allowed in game. Period. They broke their own rules and they lied about it. Nothing else fucking matters anymore, and so many people don't see the real issue.


What some of you don't seem to understand is those deeds were given to Marius for official PP use. Marius is probably tagged as an official avatar and as such subject to rules and regulations which disallow him to sell those deeds for personal profit. MA allow such deeds to exist for PP to hold events and there was no reason for MA to disallow those deeds at that point. Furthermore they are left tradeable so that they can be traded between other official avatars e.g. Marius is unable to hold an event on NI and can trade it with Meg so Meg can run that event.


As soon as Marius says they were payment for services he should have known that's not possible since his avatar can only be used for official business and those deeds were only for official business use so Marius should have taken that up with Meg/David Post.
 
As soon as Marius says they were payment for services he should have known that's not possible since his avatar can only be used for official business and those deeds were only for official business use so Marius should have taken that up with Meg/David Post.
Sadly, it is highly possible that it is possible. Without knowing exactly what Mindark and the Planet Partner in question's contract said, it's not possible to draw the conclusion that anything is not possible. Even with the word for word contract it's highly likely that it's possible due to mis-communication and different interpretations of what the wording says. That's where Lawyers, etc. enter the scene.

I suspect that there's probably a lot that the folks behind Next Island and the folks at Mindark disagree on in interpretation of contract and communications made, which is probably why Next Island is in the state that it is currently in. Just look at post 33 to see the type of miscommunication that Mindark can give out, (or just look at almost any support ticket posted about in these forums really... or look at any of the Planet Partner's forums other than Calypso and how the PPs tipytoe like walking on eggshells when saying anything about their control over the situation of things going on on their planet as Mindark controls it all, lol).

It's highly likely that that type of mis-interpretation and mis-communication is going on between PPs and MA all of time behind the scenes, which is why so many things take so long to be implemented, and when things do get implemented can be altered on the fly at any point in time along the timeline (which leads to missing systems, broken promises, items that don't work the way they were intended to work by the original planet partner that introduced them, etc.)

Hopefully Mindark does fix the estates in question on Next Island after this whole community outcry, but only time will tell. Mindark doesn't move too fast when these types of things are going on, unless maybe it's related to something they have complete control over such as Calypso, and that devs like Kim are watching the forums about daily...
 
What Ulf from Entropia Universe Support writes is a pure lie - see post 33
"However Mindarks policy is that all trades are final" he should say sometimes it is sometimes is is not that would be the truth.

Or do I need to remind the support of the "famous OreAmp-105 ul 'where the same rules applied but that MA rules changed immediately as soon as the mistake was made.

So I think they should look into this as well to the innocent Avatars advantage.:wise:

I also think in the future, I also think that the MA should speak in plain language and do not use mass synonyms that can be interpreted in different ways. That one thing was not intended for sale does not mean it can not be sold.

How hard is it to write these deeds may not be sold only be used on the following agreed terms.
 
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We all know MA's tough stance on these issues: "A lot of trades are final". And they will allow no exceptions to this rule!
 
What Ulf from Entropia Universe Support writes is a pure lie - see post 33
"However Mindarks policy is that all trades are final" he should say sometimes it is sometimes is is not that would be the truth.

Or do I need to remind the support of the "famous OreAmp-105 ul 'where the same rules applied but that MA rules changed immediately as soon as the mistake was made.

The rule is for players, not for the company. Remember that episode? You seriously believe that MA's official should have just walk away? Or that he would, had the "lucky" guy refused to return the deeds? :)
 
I wrote in support a question about my Shop on NI. If Shop also was not allowed to sell, and Deed will be also removed, I will seek compensation from MA, as the money paid for the shop to Narfi and Marius is not left out of the game, they also lie in a pocket of MA.
MA in this case have not lost anything except a handful of pixels (in my case also partially inoperative). I can lose real money invested in the game. If the rule is 'all trades are final' does not work for everyone, but work selectively, it is certainly undermine my confidence and trust of all whom I know, to the game.
I should note that despite the fact that I do not quite understand the actions of MA in the case with Fatal, I will not comment it more, until MA response to my support case (SC 285182). I will write here what will be the reaction of MA in my case.
 
My :twocents: (like we need another person buying into this but I'll do it anyway)

If the items were intended as 'Planet Partner Assets' as it appears they were by MA saying they were never intended to be traded or sold then it should have been picked up the moment they went from an 'official/PP' avatar to a private/personal avatar and reversed at that point.


The question for me is at which stage did this happen?

1. If we assume Marius was an 'official' avatar in the beginning then it would have been fine for him to hold those deeds but not trade them.

If this is the case then MA should have picked up on it and reversed the trade the moment it was made to Narfi.

2. If Marius was an 'Official' avatar but then was changed to a private/personal avatar then surely his inventory should have been checked to see if he was holding any 'Official/PP assets' and had them removed.

3. If Marius was never an 'Official' avatar and only ever privately owned for personal use(whilst doing some work for the PP) then MA should have picked up that 'PP assets' had gone to a private/personal avatar and reversed the trade between David Post and Marius.
Regardless of whether the LA's were given for services rendered the PP had no right to do so and PP assets should never be in the hands of private avatars even if they are working for the PP.

Lets not forget that MA was made aware of every single instance these deeds changed hands by the support cases made by subsequent owners and have had plenty of opportunity to remove/reverse/avoid this whole mess the moment they went from an 'official/PP' avatar to a personal/private avatar.


So who dropped the ball here?


Obviously all 'PP items' should be flagged as such and bells and whistles go off at MA when one of these items hits a private avatars inventory,it would appear that's not the case as the bells and whistles didn't even go off when MA was made aware of the whole mess 2years ago.

We can blame who ever we like along this whole messy chain but it could have and should have been nipped in the bud the moment 'Planet Partner' assets went into private avatars hands.
 
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So you feel the players should be held financial liable for internal MA<->PP politics??

Its a bad situation, and communication was lacking, but you involved yourself in the politics by purchasing PP deeds, which were knowingly not available to the general player base.

So yes, if someone actively gets in the middle and makes a transaction of PP assets exclusive from the other participants, I expect that player, whomever they are (even if it were myself), to be responsible.

If you walked away... I would see zero fault or liability, and this issue simply would not have been created.

Personally I don't know you, and it isn't a personal attack, but I am critical of the circumstances, and any instances where pp assets are trading hands between players who should not have them, are a cause for a major concern.

When trust is hard to guarantee in this game, all of us lose value.
 
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If Marius or Narfi really thought they were selling a gamble -- why did they first try to get the deed working? If you want to use Narfi's lottery ticket analogy -- they basically checked the ticket, found it was a losing ticket, and sold it to somebody claiming the lottery has not been drawn yet.


.

even if the deed didnt work at the time dont mean nothing its not like there not other item at certain time that didnt work that could be sold also

LIKE SOME SHOP THAT WERE BUG FOR CERTAIN PLAYER FOR YEARS
 
If they let the deeds remain in game, I have no issue with that. if they make something work just because it was sold after it was not supposed to be, well that's just bending to the will of the money. These were never meant to be player owned land areas. Fine, let fatal keep the deeds. But DO NOT make the land areas work as they were never intended to.

so i guest they made the deed for it to never work that could be right it wouldnt be the first time they made a item suppose to work properly
 
Yeah, pretty simple. MA shouldn't be removing items from participants' inventory just because they aren't functional. For example the bugged lysterium ingot with wrong TT is worth something simply for curiosity, not because it's functional. Items can have value for other reason than it's function. Didn't you ever feel awesome equipping the wrench? I (poor noob) certainly wouldn't mind owning a non-functional land area deed just for the fun of it, I could still say hey it's my land. :cool:

Exactly! Don't remove our items!
Its ok to temp ban us if we do some wrongful act and they have to investigate etc.

Nothing wrong was performed by the participants here.
MA and PP's have the power to create items from thin air, if they can't handle this GODly power then they shouldn't have that ability. But then what would happen to our universe? It would die, because we need a creator that can give us excitement...
 
The rule is for players, not for the company. Remember that episode? You seriously believe that MA's official should have just walk away? Or that he would, had the "lucky" guy refused to return the deeds? :)



You see an avatar with high morale but on reflection, what was his choice this is, after all MA's universe they had just to put his Avatar on lowest ability to loot and got their money back..

This avatar has really only two choices one to return it twice or to sell and stop playing the game.:wise:
 
Exactly! Don't remove our items!
Its ok to temp ban us if we do some wrongful act and they have to investigate etc.

Nothing wrong was performed by the participants here.
MA and PP's have the power to create items from thin air, if they can't handle this GODly power then they shouldn't have that ability. But then what would happen to our universe? It would die, because we need a creator that can give us excitement...

These items were not player property. Marius has muddied the water by saying they were given to him as payment, and using very suspect language otherwise. MA did not take away an item that was player property. They took away PP property that had made it in to player hands.

I agree with the people saying MA was too slow to act on this. I do not agree that just because these were traded and David post is not around to clear it up, they somehow changed from being defined as PP property to being defined as player property.
 
These items were not player property. Marius has muddied the water by saying they were given to him as payment, and using very suspect language otherwise. MA did not take away an item that was player property. They took away PP property that had made it in to player hands.

I agree with the people saying MA was too slow to act on this. I do not agree that just because these were traded and David post is not around to clear it up, they somehow changed from being defined as PP property to being defined as player property.

The deeds most certainly should never have entered into circulation.

I blame the Next Island staff, David Post and Meg for doing that.
 
The deeds most certainly should never have entered into circulation.

I blame the Next Island staff, David Post and Meg for doing that.

They entered in to circulation via Marius. they entered the game space on Marius' PP employee account via Meg. I do blame David post for not cleaning up loose ends when he left. But he's not here. He should have removed items from employee accounts. He should have done a lot of things though.

I blame Marius for entering them in to circulation. David Post is an entirely different type of negligent.
 
To be clear here, my main point is, while MA was slow to react. VERY slow even. And David Post was an awful planet partner and dumped his investment, that does not mean an item that entered the game should now be made in to a functional item just because someone bought it.
 
I do blame David post for not cleaning up loose ends when he left.

Loose ends like making sure NI has an owner?

Anyway, I hope his future business partners see how committed he is to finishing what he starts. Ofc MA is also to blame in not having a backup plan to deal with abandoned planets.
 
They entered in to circulation via Marius. they entered the game space on Marius' PP employee account via Meg. I do blame David post for not cleaning up loose ends when he left. But he's not here. He should have removed items from employee accounts. He should have done a lot of things though.

I blame Marius for entering them in to circulation. David Post is an entirely different type of negligent.

Back then, originally, things were less rigid and less structured for those who were helping a PP in a quasi-official capacity. From what I can tell, Marius didn't have an "employee account". He just had his avatar and that's it.

Maybe Marius deserves some of the blame, maybe not. We don't know.
 
My :twocents: (like we need another person buying into this but I'll do it anyway)

If the items were intended as 'Planet Partner Assets' as it appears they were by MA saying they were never intended to be traded or sold then it should have been picked up the moment they went from an 'official/PP' avatar to a private/personal avatar and reversed at that point.


The question for me is at which stage did this happen?

1. If we assume Marius was an 'official' avatar in the beginning then it would have been fine for him to hold those deeds but not trade them.

If this is the case then MA should have picked up on it and reversed the trade the moment it was made to Narfi.

2. If Marius was an 'Official' avatar but then was changed to a private/personal avatar then surely his inventory should have been checked to see if he was holding any 'Official/PP assets' and had them removed.

3. If Marius was never an 'Official' avatar and only ever privately owned for personal use(whilst doing some work for the PP) then MA should have picked up that 'PP assets' had gone to a private/personal avatar and reversed the trade between David Post and Marius.
Regardless of whether the LA's were given for services rendered the PP had no right to do so and PP assets should never be in the hands of private avatars even if they are working for the PP.

Lets not forget that MA was made aware of every single instance these deeds changed hands by the support cases made by subsequent owners and have had plenty of opportunity to remove/reverse/avoid this whole mess the moment they went from an 'official/PP' avatar to a personal/private avatar.


So who dropped the ball here?


Obviously all 'PP items' should be flagged as such and bells and whistles go off at MA when one of these items hits a private avatars inventory,it would appear that's not the case as the bells and whistles didn't even go off when MA was made aware of the whole mess 2years ago.

We can blame who ever we like along this whole messy chain but it could have and should have been nipped in the bud the moment 'Planet Partner' assets went into private avatars hands.
Which version of 'official' was Marius? Only Mindark can say... (and even they can't officially tell us that there are more than one version - an ex PP employee had to since Mindark didn't have the balls to even tell us that much)

The Official Avatar Guidelines lay out the rules for four different types of avatars and what they can and cannot do, but other than the regular EU avatar, which is your personal avatar that you started PE/EU with, all of the others are tagged through coding and activities monitored. The four avatars in question are Incognito (secret), Official (gold star over head), Role Playing (RX Units and any storyline character that will play a key role in the evolution of a planet), and Personal avatars which are not tagged unless there's a very good reason to be so.

There are also two types of Restricted Accounts ... Employee Accounts which are those who are employees of MA, PPs, Marketing Associates, etc., and Demo Accounts used for investors, journalists, and other such individuals in order to show them part, or all of EU during a limited period of time.

The Incognito accounts are used for testing and experiencing the EU platform without revealing they are controlled by an employee, whether it's MA, PP, Marketing Associates, or others. Also, the avatar name chosen can in no way be connected to MA, PPs, EU organizations or associations, or real life identity. This type of account cannot be used in any public events or anything similar.

The Official accounts are used to participate in game events or for official announcements.

The Role Playing accounts are used to participate in events and play a role, or a character that has significance to a planet's storyline (Cyrene will eventually do this, and it's brilliant), but then there are the RX Units on Calypso that interact with the players and get involved with events.

The Private accounts are personal accounts that are registered by the employee before employment. The rule is that once you become Official, or even before your Official avatar is created, you must freeze your personal account and not be able to use it until employment has ended. This is what happened to me, and MS9 was in a cryogenic state until I resigned my position with Cyrene, but then got her back with everything she had prior to being put on hold.
 
With the limited amount of information that all of us have, there is plenty of room for us to argue endlessly about who is to blame and why.... On a web forum, that discussion is to be expected.

The part that I'm focused on is trying to get an expedient resolution that's fair for Fatal, MindArk, and the community as a whole. My main concern is the stability of the EU economy. I don't want to see people selling out, or hesitant to make investments here, because of the poorly thought out actions by one Planet Partner that was on his way out.

Which version of 'official' was Marius? Only Mindark can say... (and even they can't officially tell us that there are more than one version - an ex PP employee had to since Mindark didn't have the balls to even tell us that much)

It's a valid point because it certainly seems that the rules in place now didn't apply to Marius for whatever reason... Perhaps because they weren't in place then?

Marius should elaborate further on that point.
 
even if the deed didnt work at the time dont mean nothing its not like there not other item at certain time that didnt work that could be sold also

LIKE SOME SHOP THAT WERE BUG FOR CERTAIN PLAYER FOR YEARS

This is something else entirely.

There is no issue with somebody selling a bugged shop as a bugged shop. The chance that a known bug will get fixed at some point down the line? Fairly good, debatable as a gamble.

These LA Deeds were not bugged. They were intentionally non-functioning and MA clearly indicated this to both parties, advising them to seek restitution from whomever sold it to them.

Narfi and Marius were not selling bugged LA Deeds, they were selling intentionally non-functioning deeds under the pretense that it was a bug. Both of them knew damn well that MA had no intention of getting involved with these unauthorized deeds. Narfi simply used semantics to coerce fatal into thinking he was buying something that could be fixed. Based on fatal's original post and the chat logs between him and Narfi, you can clearly see that he never once indicated that MA told him the LAs were not authorized.

Blaming MA, David, or anyone from NI is a fallacy here. Their inaction was merely a vehicle for Marius and Narfi's fraudulent sales. Scummy people will doing scummy things regardless of circumstance. Saying "its their fault because they let me do this" does not absolve you of anything.

Oversight exists everywhere, it's unavoidable in the development of anything. The situation was entirely fine until Marius/Narfi had the fine idea of misrepresenting the deed for profit. To me, this clearly indicates that the problem here is Marius and Narfi, not neglect from MA/David/NI.
 
But how do you know that they knew these Land Areas would never be operational? That email we saw was a recent one, not an old one. It was from after Fatal had already bought those deeds
 
But how do you know that they knew these Land Areas would never be operational? That email we saw was a recent one, not an old one. It was from after Fatal had already bought those deeds

firstcase.jpg

firstcaseanswer.jpg


It's pretty clear that MA indicated that the deeds were not working because they were not authorized, not because they were bugged. They even told him that Marius tried the same thing unsuccessfully.
 
I know the seller for very long time even before I started my adventures in Entropia and while I studied what is Entropia all about. I respect him and his opinion.
From the other hand I spoke with the buyer yesterday by coincidence! (didn't even knew about the whole situation).
Right now I realize that both are very upset and ready to quit from EU and I can understand how they feel.
What we have here?
We have a very depressing situation, with two very serious players and investors who are victims and they acted both in good faith!
All this caused by platform developer and planet partner. Their bad agreements and irresponsibility they indicated by their actions.
MA as a platform partner should act here and must get a decision to satisfy both parties, by replacing those deeds perhaps with others who can be legitimate in game. Since PP doesn't exist anymore at least officially.



PS. I hope my post (and my english!) can have a meaning, since I'm also pretty upset with this issue.
 
It says: "We have received a reply from our team regarding these land areas, and they have told us that these lands were never approved for sale"

That means the lands were never supposed to enter circulation in the first place... it does not say "you can not sell these".

It goes on to say:

"The avatar who previously owned them, had ongoing support cases and he was also informed about not being active"

That means that the land areas aren't active, which is the basis of why Narfi and Marius were sending support cases in the first place. It does not say "he was not authorized to sell those land areas to you"

Finally, it says:

"Please contact Marius to see if you guys can settle this with David Post."

...which is a bogus request because everyone knows that David Post can not be reached.

Now if I were MindArk, what I would have done after the very FIRST support case from Marius is send this:

Hello, we have received your request regarding the activation of Land Areas in your possession on Next Island. We are very sorry to inform you that Next Island staff were not authorized by MindArk to sell or transfer any Land Areas on Next Island to anyone in the player base for any reason. The Land Areas in question were created strictly for the purpose of facilitating official events on Next Island by the Planet Partner. They are not Land Areas that can be claimed or utilized by any player. Additionally, our records indicate that you did not pay for these Land Areas with any items or PED in-game. If you paid for these out of game in some way, the EULA strictly prohibits those kinds of transactions.

As a result of these Land Areas not being authorized for distribution and because they can not be utilized by a player in any way, we are removing those Land Areas from your inventory. Please contact David Post or Next Island staff immediately in order to seek clarification about this issue including any compensation that is due to you.

Thank You


Now if MA had done that, the this would not be a problem.
 
And to be fair....

Hindsight is 20/20 and it's very easy for all of us to sit here and say "coulda, woulda, shoulda"

Whenever you have a real money situation with this many partners, investors, player-investors, etc you inevitably will eventually wind up in this kind of situation where nothing is clear and no easy solution is available.

The difficult thing now for MindArk is figuring out what to do next. Regardless of who said what and who is at fault, with 11k+ thread views and hundreds of replies, this now is MindArk's problem to deal with.

Put yourself in their situation for a moment. How would you go forward?
 
And to be fair....

Hindsight is 20/20 and it's very easy for all of us to sit here and say "coulda, woulda, shoulda"

Whenever you have a real money situation with this many partners, investors, player-investors, etc you inevitably will eventually wind up in this kind of situation where nothing is clear and no easy solution is available.

The difficult thing now for MindArk is figuring out what to do next. Regardless of who said what and who is at fault, with 11k+ thread views and hundreds of replies, this now is MindArk's problem to deal with.

Put yourself in their situation for a moment. How would you go forward?


Donno about MA but I would simply put the deed back in fatal's inventory, make it locked to him if need be and wish him the best for the future :)
 
Donno about MA but I would simply put the deed back in fatal's inventory, make it locked to him if need be and wish him the best for the future :)

Yup, this is a completely fair outcome.
 
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