Bugged Deeds?

Doer said:

It was a very, very close contest and Narfi went "all in" by hiring a whole army of mercenaries to shoot with him. It wouldn't surprise me if ND adjusted the spawns during the contest, as the higher-level THINGs didn't spawn enough for either of the two finalists' tastes and I think requests were made to make them more common. If so, this would hardly constitute "help" or be unfair, as it was available to (and as i said, i think requested by) both the final competitors.

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Oh come on! You got to be kidding me? You know how hard I had to work, on video also, to get those big mobs to him? Spent a lot of time searching for those big mobs to bring back to him as others were as well. So no, they were not just magically spawning next to us. I even went through 2 Arkadia Hoverpods MK.III that mission.

I am usually quick to attack MA at its faults, but I don't see they have any choice here.
There is surely a legal basis for the actions MA took, and did not take.

Planet partner assets are owned by the partners, not MA. I assume the most they could legally do is inform the owner that they had no function, as the Planet partner probably never did any of the work to make them active.

Just like the SEE assets that were tied up for years...MA couldn't touch those either until it was legally resolved.

I would hope they have had in place some sort of clause to take control of and lock items that are not owned by MA in the event of issues like this, but it appears they did not.
I would guess that in the end, the Planet partner might be the liable party (and ones who should have disabled it) before MA is in this case.

That said:

If MA informed the player that they were not to be sold, then the player should never have sold them.

If the player knew they had no actual value and sold them....at an insanely inflated value, then while technically legal in the game, it is highly unethical and suspect, and in many jurisdictions basis for criminal charges. (especially at that value)

It would be a different deal entirely if he sold them for TT value, which is what they are exactly worth.

Either way sounds like the player sold them knowing the bad deal that it was, betting on the naivety of another more inexperienced and un-informed player. There is no way to ice that cake or make it look prettier than it is.

OZtwo said:

Oh come on! You got to be kidding me? You know how hard I had to work, on video also, to get those big mobs to him? Spent a lot of time searching for those big mobs to bring back to him as others were as well. So no, they were not just magically spawning next to us. I even went through 2 Arkadia Hoverpods MK.III that mission.

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Um, i was there, too... remember? Yes, i know the big ones were hard to find and herd back to the team. I was simply addressing the apparently wrong accusations with what i knew. I don't know if the spawn of big THINGs was increased but i heard the possibility being discussed at some point. One should only report what one knows, and that's what I know.

I have nothing to hide and allowed the chats to be published

/mod note/
narfi, you'll recall that this forum has a rule about posting private communications:
2.6 - Private Communication
Posting the content from a private communication in a publicly viewable area of PlanetCalypsoForum is NOT permitted. Private communications include any medium where the involved parties have a reasonable expectation of privacy, such as: emails, chat logs, instant messenger logs, private messages, private society forum posts, private social group posts, reputation comments, etc. Such private communications are to remain private, not shared with third parties. Any such private communication content posted on PlanetCalypsoForum will be deleted without notice.
I will therefore be removing the text of the private chat between you and fatal.

As this is a somewhat unusual situation though, I'll be sending a pm to fatal asking if he would agree with that text being posted. If he does agree, I'll restore the posts.


in all fairness narfi did not give me or show me his support tickets he said it was bugged I took his word for it at that. trusting his good name.
I bought them in game off narfi i did not buy them out of game I followed the eula narfi never disclosed that he bought them out of eula I had no idea of this.

I bought the deeds off narfi the same day they went on sale that was the only communication we had at that time.

narfi said they were bugged and that i may be able to get it fixed if I bug them enough I was not told by him that they are no good and that he was informed of this by MA

not knowing that narfi bought them out of eula and not knowing that the deeds should have never been sold.I bought them my thought if i cant get them to fix the la they are still good deeds so how can I loose?.I am buying them from a well known and trusted player of the game if i knew that they were bought out of game by narfi and that they are worthless .I would never have bought them

The only thing i did wrong was trusting someone and trusting the game.it never came to my mind that the deeds are no good? why would they be in game then? after all MA/pp supply the content.

Doer said:

It seems the only appropriate resolution to this is for MA to fix the LAs, giving a disclaimer as they do so that the areas in question are subject to change in size and/or content in some future VU due to their unsupported and unapproved origins. Then the current owner gets working LAs, MA keeps the right-of-way to modify NI as they wish if/when the time arises, and the whole mess is resolved by the party who is ultimately responsible: the platform operator who has to approve all new developments.

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I'd say, the best thing is to reverse the trades. Period. MA moves the deeds backwards until they end up at whoever created them, and the payment for the deeds is moved "forward".

One thing to consider, is that the land areas Went for let's say a 5th of their running price on Calypso. Buying them was a chance taken by the buyer, and Selling them was a chance taken by the seller. As it didn't work out; buyer and seller was told land area deeds weren't ment to be sold, just put it back as it were.

To keep the land-areas and make them operational "as-is" will cause a problem further on. Let's say the deeds are sold once again, to yet a new owner in a year from now, and then MA decides to implement restriction, then the new owner will complain "why has my land area been changed? I was not told anything!". Consider the small shops in Thorkil's Cave, which originally actually had something like 5+5 item Points when released. Then, because some people paid more than expected for those huts, MA increased the limit, but the new limit became bugged and nothing worked. And later on when the Cave was replaced with a mall it was an injustice why some shops had 25 item Points while others of same size had 150.

One solution could be: Implement the land areas; but design them with a market value of 25k+25k in sight. First, make them like two farms. Let's say change them from normal size to two areas 50mx100m, two small fenced areas next to eachother. And include one Booth/stall each. Nove move this chunk from the landscape to closer to civlized land.

fatal said:

I bought them in game off narfi i did not buy them out of game

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Thaks for telling! Then this part of the trade could be reversed.

Doer said:

Um, i was there, too... remember? Yes, i know the big ones were hard to find and herd back to the team. I was simply addressing the apparently wrong accusations with what i knew. I don't know if the spawn of big THINGs was increased but i heard the possibility being discussed at some point. One should only report what one knows, and that's what I know.

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heh yes, sorry, quoted the wrong post I see..morning coffee does that to a person...but still for this to start up again as if we just sat back and feed the mobs to us.

MindArk can easily solve this by returning the deeds to Fatal and then allowing him to claim the landarea

Yes MA should assume command at NI and put things as should be and sell it like it did with Calypso!

HardWrath said:

MindArk can easily solve this by returning the deeds to Fatal and then allowing him to claim the landarea

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Yes, that is the only easy solution.

MA stated in the response Narfi linked on page 4 of this thread: "You got to keep the deeds to be able to show that you still had them as proof against the form holder of them and David Post" They also stated that these deeds were unapproved.

By deliberately leaving something in game that was unapproved, MA reasonably could have expected this would happen.

MA's only recourse, (the only one really that would restore trust in MA) would be to make these LA's claimable.

Now, more than ever, it is MA's duty to take control of NI, show us all they are the boss that gets stuff done, and takes care of the players. There is a LOT of good that can come from MA fixing a huge, beautiful, defunct planet, (it is already there...would take minimal effort), and it is time for MA to step up and show us that they care about the long-term stability of our universe.

Sunsout Gunsout said:

By deliberately leaving something in game that was unapproved, MA reasonably could have expected this would happen.

[/B]

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Ever since planet partners were Introduced, MA has had to constantly balance what to allow planet partners to implement. At first, this was slow, we all saw some ridiculous shit happen when the system was new.

My guess, these deeds were developed a long time ago, before MA enacted more strict development regulations on planet partners since some decided to take advantage of the situation for personal gain. If I'm indeed correct, the fault would ultimately be with the planet partner who developed them / the person hired to develop that planet.

Good luck to you both in sorting this out.

Meculus said:

Ever since planet partners were Introduced, MA has had to constantly balance what to allow planet partners to implement. At first, this was slow, we all saw some ridiculous shit happen when the system was new.

My guess, these deeds were developed a long time ago, before MA enacted more strict development regulations on planet partners since some decided to take advantage of the situation for personal gain. If I'm indeed correct, the fault would ultimately be with the planet partner who developed them / the person hired to develop that planet.

Good luck to you both in sorting this out.

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I agree, however, once MA was put on notice that these deeds (unapproved items) were in the game, I feel it is their responsibility at that point to remove them, plain and simple. And their failure to remove them actually ratified their existence...once they knew unapproved items were in game, by not removing them, they created the problem, became the proximate cause of the events that transpired, and now have an affirmative duty to fix what they caused, or risk losing the most important thing of ours that MA has....trust.

Everyone that cares about this universe needs to bother MA with emails, support cases, and phone calls as much as possible, until MA makes an official statement, and takes official action regarding defunct PP's, because there can be no trust in the universal model MA created until MA steps up and protects it.

We have received a reply from our team regarding these land areas, and they have told us that these lands were never approved for sale.

The avatar who previously owned them, had ongoing support cases and he was also informed about not being active. Please contact Marius to see if you guys can settle this with David Post.

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I am sorry but to construde from this that its all fine and dandy to sell the deeds is just avoiding the substance of what they are saying. To me what they said is clear as the blue sky, these items should never have been sold/traded to anyone period. If you read that as "Well they never used my specific name and "Don't sell them" in the same sentence so it must be fine then" then quite frankly i think you were willfully ignorant.

They did not tell you to contact the PP to get it fixed, they told you to go back through the transaction chain and settle the deal between the three parties in question.

What MA could have done is one of two things:

1. Let the parties invloved work it out on there own, trusting them to do so.

2. Lock all the accounts that have ever spoken or layed eyes on any avatar who ever held the deeds and work it back the transaction chain(which would not go further back then Narfi as the payment was outside of the game and thus outside of MA's control).


Did MA handle this matter perfectly? definitly not, these deeds were probably a over sight from the good old shit storm days of NI/RT that should have been corrected long ago. But to absolve all blame from one party simply because the other have a greater responsibility in the matter i think is incorrect MA, PP and the chain of sellers have responsibility in this in my eyes.

To sell something that is known not to be approved is at the very least a shady thing to do.


Best regards

A really honest player would have not sold these unusable deeds in the first place. And if Narfi still has some ethics, he will reverse the trade.

If not....

MA should enforce the reversal.

Sunsout Gunsout said:

I agree, however, once MA was put on notice that these deeds (unapproved items) were in the game, I feel it is their responsibility at that point to remove them, plain and simple. And their failure to remove them actually ratified their existence...once they knew unapproved items were in game, by not removing them, they created the problem, became the proximate cause of the events that transpired, and now have an affirmative duty to fix what they caused, or risk losing the most important thing of ours that MA has....trust.

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I agree 100% and anyone with a dispassionate unbiased view likely can also see how MA has culpability in this. I really don't see what's so hard about simply making the LandAreas claimable and simply incorporating them into whatever future development plans are in store for Next Island.

It's no secret that David Post doesn't do anything to develop NI anymore. That planet's failure is his own fault because he failed to secure adequate funding. I really don't know what we are waiting for here... It's time for David Post to shit or get off the pot, and if he won't do either, then MA needs to remove him.

That planet is a open wound that's now getting infected... This deed problem is only a symptom of that.

HardWrath said:

I agree 100% and anyone with a dispassionate unbiased view likely can also see how MA has culpability in this. I really don't see what's so hard about simply making the LandAreas claimable and simply incorporating them into whatever future development plans are in store for Next Island.

It's no secret that David Post doesn't do anything to develop NI anymore. That planet's failure is his own fault because he failed to secure adequate funding. I really don't know what we are waiting for here... It's time for David Post to shit or get off the pot, and if he won't do either, then MA needs to remove him.

That planet is a open wound that's now getting infected... This deed problem is only a symptom of that.

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Well, good news last I looked MA took over ownership of the NI websites a while back and did do a few posts on Facebook about NI being the vacation spot for all to visit.

WangXiang said:

A really honest player would have not sold these unusable deeds in the first place. And if Narfi still has some ethics, he will reverse the trade.

If not....

MA should enforce the reversal.

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Spot on.

Once reversed MA should make the deeds avatar bound so they can't cause anymore drama. Narfi should then sort out the original issue with the deeds being unapproved and get them aproved or that issue resolved.

Valdes said:

To me, MA clearly indicated that they will not be involved with these deeds because the land areas were never approved.

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You don't see a problem with MA leting PP put things ingame that they don't approve ?

Either the PP deceived MA and fall for it
or
MA let PP do whatever they wanted and only afterward tried to fix the broken stuff

neither looked good.

It is MA task to enforce some rules on what is possible to do in this virtual universe.

Neil Stockton said:

Points:
4) Narfi and Fatal both, for making a trade outside of the game

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Pretty sure it is not the Narfi/Fatal trade that was outside the game, but the David Post/Neverdie one (or whoever it was). Meaning that ND (or whoever it was) got the LA's for doing real life work, so no PED's or items have been exchanged for the LA's.

And looking at the data we are presented with, there is now way either Narfi or Fatal are to blame for this all. Like mentioned before the message from MA does not tell Narfi not to sell them, just that it was not supposed to be sold by the original owner in the first place. As it was still in game after the first sale, you may assume that from then on it was OK to be sold or the item would have been made unable to sell or removed altogether.

It is also clear from communication between Narfi and Fatal that the items had issues and both parties were aware of that. If there were no issues the price on the deeds would have been 10x higher at least.

To me this is an example of MindArk breaking their own rules (all trades are final) clearly showing they don't give a crap about the players and try to cover up their own mistakes by spreading lies about long time, well know and respected players who have done much more then MA themselves in promoting the game and helping out people both ingame and outside of the game.

Razer said:

To me this is an example of MindArk breaking their own rules (all trades are final) (...)

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Or it's a good thing: Reversing trades when something have gone terribly wrong can be a good thing; for instance if there is a scam involved or the trade shouldn't had taken Place in the first Place.

Am I the only one who Think it's weird that suddently a "normal" (non-official, non-planet partner representative) wants to sell land areas on a planet where land areas never has been sold publicly, and (at first) doesn't state clearly from where the land area deeds come?

MG Mighty said:

You don't see a problem with MA leting PP put things ingame that they don't approve ?

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My guess: MA let ND (or whoever) create these land areas, so it would be possible to host regular hunting events, with the understanding they would be used by the planet partner (like LA66), not to be given away to 3rd party.

My question about how MA would reverse these trades though...

If it goes like this:
1) Someone who was involved with NI got these deeds for some work they did (considered as an outside of EU trade)
2) This person sells them to Narfi for an amount of peds (in-game trade)
3) Narfi sells it forwards (in-game trade)

So now then... the original person who got the deed from an outside trade, who isn't active, very likely has already taken the peds out, or is in process of doing so, or has already thrown it all away.
So MA can reverse it like this:
1) Give LA deeds back to Fatal
2) Transfer LA deeds from Fatal to Narfi and at the same peds from Narfi to Fatal
3) Transfer LA deeds from Narfi to the original seller aaaaaand...

Welp, where are the peds to give back to Narfi from the original deal, very likely gone, what are they gonna do then? Surely they won't give it out of their own pockets.

Cail said:

Welp, where are the peds

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The responsible and fair thing would be for MA (who is ultimately responsible) to return and fix the deeds or pay Fatal for the deeds they removed from his inventory and bill David Post (who is the one who is Internally responsible for their release)

Fatal needs a champion in this, I hoped to be, but obviously that did not work out. It really is up to the community to come behind him now and hold MA responsible for what they took from him.

aia said:

Am I the only one who Think it's weird that suddently a "normal" (non-official, non-planet partner representative) wants to sell land areas on a planet where land areas never has been sold publicly, and (at first) doesn't state clearly from where the land area deeds come?

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Yes, now that we see the whole story, you are probably the only only still wondering that. Because the rest of us figured out what happened by reading the thread.

We are now focusing on the bigger picture.

The trade itself is what it is...and in all truthfulness, is much less important than what was discovered here, and that is that MA, upon adequate notice, has allowed unapproved items to remain in game, then tried to cover their tracks, and wash their hands of it all, while twisting the truth.

How Narfi got them is unimportant to me and others, now, because the real issue is how these were allowed to exist. We are talking about the fate of a planet. We are talking about what, in my mind, amounts to negligence and a cover-up by MA, an issue with unapproved items being introduced, and what MA will do about these things. These issues affect us all much more deeply.

MA NEEDS to take a stance on its obligation to protect us from unapproved items being introduced, and it needs to tell us what they will do about NI, and other planets, in the event this same thing happens again in the future.

Cail said:

My question about how MA would reverse these trades though...
So now then... the original person who got the deed from an outside trade, who isn't active, very likely has already taken the peds out, or is in process of doing so, or has already thrown it all away.
So MA can reverse it like this:
1) Give LA deeds back to Fatal
2) Transfer LA deeds from Fatal to Narfi and at the same peds from Narfi to Fatal
3) Transfer LA deeds from Narfi to the original seller aaaaaand...

Welp, where are the peds to give back to Narfi from the original deal, very likely gone, what are they gonna do then? Surely they won't give it out of their own pockets.

Click to expand...

If there is a "reversal chain" it goes back as long as needed, it doesn't have to go bach to initial owner if it's not needed.

In the case of scamming, there is one apparent thing: To, as fast as possible, add a temp-lock to the people involved, to make sure not too many other trades are done during investigation.

In this case, it's tecnically easy in a way: When Narfi got the deed, there was nothing in the other half of the trade window. Practically, it's a gift (or a loan). In that case, the deed can be passed "back". If on the other hand the deed was paid for with PEDs, it would be interesting with whom the trade was done; if it was a planet partner Selling off Equity "under the table", or if it was some sort of scammer who had gotten the deed in a illegitemate way (like the trading booths on RT).

Now, if there aren't supposed to be land areas on a planet except officially owned, should it be ok to "free" a land area by giving it to a "friend" and then sell it to a 3rd party, and then require MA to "free" it?

narfi said:

The responsible and fair thing would be for MA (who is ultimately responsible) to return and fix the deeds or pay Fatal for the deeds they removed from his inventory and bill David Post (who is the one who is Internally responsible for their release)

Fatal needs a champion in this, I hoped to be, but obviously that did not work out. It really is up to the community to come behind him now and hold MA responsible for what they took from him.

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Yes, ultimately it would be ideal to replace this seller with the owner of the planet, since this avatar apparently had been working for/under him, and leave it up to him to deal with the situation... buuuuut in this case that would be rather difficult.

I'm not here to cast blame or praise, just trying to look what MA/PP could even do about it, atm. it seems like MA really couldn't do much at this point (well, they could, but if they should, is another thing), as the whole situation of this planet, and their devs, is a bit of a questionmark to us players (surely there's a lot more complex stuff that MA is, or will have to deal with regarding this issue).

A MA public clarification would be most welcome.

aia said:

If there is a "reversal chain" it goes back as long as needed, it doesn't have to go bach to initial owner if it's not needed.

In the case of scamming, there is one apparent thing: To, as fast as possible, add a temp-lock to the people involved, to make sure not too many other trades are done during investigation.

In this case, it's tecnically easy in a way: When Narfi got the deed, there was nothing in the other half of the trade window. Practically, it's a gift (or a loan). In that case, the deed can be passed "back". If on the other hand the deed was paid for with PEDs, it would be interesting with whom the trade was done; if it was a planet partner Selling off Equity "under the table", or if it was some sort of scammer who had gotten the deed in a illegitemate way (like the trading booths on RT).

Now, if there aren't supposed to be land areas on a planet except officially owned, should it be ok to "free" a land area by giving it to a "friend" and then sell it to a 3rd party, and then require MA to "free" it?

Click to expand...

As i understood, Narfi paid for it, though? Or did i miss something?
Wasn't the "outside of game trade" done between the original seller and PP?
If Narfi did pay in peds for the deeds, and the original seller's avatar is gone, or the peds from this avatar are gone, and you trade the deeds all the way back to that ava, Narfi will leave without peds (if he did, in fact pay for them within the game).
And this would leave MA once again in an awkward position.

Cail said:

Yes, ultimately it would be ideal to replace this seller with the owner of the planet, since this avatar apparently had been working for/under him, and leave it up to him to deal with the situation... buuuuut in this case that would be rather difficult.

I'm not here to cast blame or praise, just trying to look what MA/PP could even do about it, atm. it seems like MA really couldn't do much at this point (well, they could, but if they should, is another thing), as the whole situation of this planet, and their devs, is a bit of a questionmark to us players (surely there's a lot more complex stuff that MA is, or will have to deal with regarding this issue).

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So you feel the players should be held financial liable for internal MA<->PP politics??

Just to be clear this isn't a recent transaction, it has been some two months or so since Fatal bought the deeds. (which is the only reason I ever mentioned the 6k he owned me, as it had been due before MA decided to remove the deeds and he had not paid me) That is an eternity in here and those peds are long gone into the MA grinder.(only withdrawal I ever made was several years ago) You think it would be ethical to force me to depo against my family's wellbeing this winter because MA changed their tune 2 months after I made a trade, some 2+ years after the first guy had started filing support cases asking for them to be fixed?

aia said:

Or it's a good thing: Reversing trades when something have gone terribly wrong can be a good thing; for instance if there is a scam involved or the trade shouldn't had taken Place in the first Place.

Am I the only one who Think it's weird that suddently a "normal" (non-official, non-planet partner representative) wants to sell land areas on a planet where land areas never has been sold publicly, and (at first) doesn't state clearly from where the land area deeds come?

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Yes it is a good thing, but ONLY if it applies to everyone. I do understand whey MA has the 'all trades are final' policy. If they did not have that, everyone would go to MA asking to revert a trade because they were drunk or have regrets of selling something and that would be a nightmare to manage. The problem is that this rule does not seem to apply to MA themselves if they screwed up (some MA employee being drunk and approving the release of the deeds, hypothetically of course).

This could potentially mean that MindArk can withdraw and remove every item in game if they just tell us that is was not meant to be in the game anyway. "Oh Aia, that Mod Fap and Mod Merc you just bought were not supposed to be in game, so we removed them from your inventory, we are sorry about that."

I see a big issue with that to be honest. It is not about this sale specific but about what it means in the long run in general.