Bugged Deeds?

So as it stands right now MA putting back the deeds in Fatal's inventory is all that is needed. There was no commitment made by MA or Narfi or anyone that they will be worth anything in the future and as such the gamble that fatal took is his own to look out.

Yeah, pretty simple. MA shouldn't be removing items from participants' inventory just because they aren't functional. For example the bugged lysterium ingot with wrong TT is worth something simply for curiosity, not because it's functional. Items can have value for other reason than it's function. Didn't you ever feel awesome equipping the wrench? I (poor noob) certainly wouldn't mind owning a non-functional land area deed just for the fun of it, I could still say hey it's my land. :cool:
 
I think after reading through all of this and losing more trust in MA than ever before... the above part of Marius's post is what speaks the most to me. He contacted support over and over???? Years ago??? They didn't remove the deeds then? If they were 'illegal' as they now contend them to be the ONLY question is why were they not removed back then????? MA has NO excuse for this, none, zero, zip, nada can't blame this on Marius, planet partner, Narfi or Fatal. They can only blame themselves. :wise:

I do think the ONLY solution is to return the deeds to Fatal and make the LA's active and Fatal and Narfi finish their deal. :wise::wise::wise::wise::wise:

/rant off
Casay

Back then Support was in Mexico, now is in Sweden. Maybe back then this SC didn't came high enough.

Those LA's were never intended for sale to player's, why MA should make them functional now and allow them to remain in hands of player who illegally got them in his possession? (Two illegal sales Marius-Narfi and then Narfi-Fatal, both sellers were well aware about how stinky that rotten eggs were.).

I like Das' example about Marco's gun.
If Marco 'sold' his gun to some player before losing job and then gun surfaced couple years later after another change of hands, should MA suddenly legalize it's existence in player's hands?
No, they should remove it from game and reverse transactions they had in their system. (Meaning that probably they would not have first transaction in logs, Marco-Player A, just like they don't have logs with NI's PP-Marius.
 
We are missing info from David post, we have no idea why these deeds where handed to Marius, if it was handed to an official ava etc
Marius clearly said I assumed they where payment..

As it was my understanding yes they were given to me as payment for my services and I was happy to take them because it meant that I could have tried to get the ball rolling on NI and play more myself. And at that point they became mine. Like someone has said if someone you worked for paid you in an item like a watch or computer for your services then at that point does that item not become yours to do with as you please? If no then one day i would love to have you work for me so that I can pay you in something and then when our time together has ended I can get back everything I gave you. ;)

Few more things jump out here..

He was not sure it was payment.. could've been given to indeed make events on the LA & promote NI.
His payment could've been the income from the LA at that time..

He compares it to a watch or a computer wich doesn't generate an income, compare it to stock dividends..
The deal might have been that you get a share of the profit but when the deal ends, the dividends stay property of the company.

I do wonder why Post never asked them back after giving up on NI.., then again, I only went there once & never really followed him so no idea how he left his project behind.

I also seriously wonder what checking MA does on withdrawals, IF Narfi paid the deeds in peds & they where then taken out of the game.. someone should've noticed where those "~50k" ped came from..

Was Narfi wrong in selling them.. I think so
Should Narfi take the financial loss? I don't think so..
& The last buyer is royally screwed while he had the least to do with this..

I also believe MA doesn't wonna activate the LA's as they have internal rules of how much items there can be per active playerbase.
 
What puzzles me most after this issue is public for more than 24h now is that not a single word from Mindark appears, not even an "We are looking into the issue" ... Hmmm


edit: lol fixed a funny typo
 
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How i see it.

used for ingame promotional events. and the deeds status was to not hand the deeds to some other or to sell the deeds. The intention was only for NI dev team to have for be used for promotional events and nothing more.

# Everyone knows that MA is principal in game and everything that is created in the game, with their approval.

So my opinion is that the result should be....

# All Avatars that brought the deeds further and know the truth about these deeds should be banned and pay back everything they earned on this.

# All avatars that did not know about the history behind these deeds should be fully reimbursed.

# The MA is responsible for all costs because they are the principal and nothing exists in the game except for their approval, They should also learn once and for all to stop with all these secret and shady contracts with different avatars in the game where these avatars are able to get benefits in the game, but do you now any service or a job, the payment shall be outside the game and not have anything to do with the game.

# and all Avatars who had done a job for MA in this game and dont belong to MA stab or some planet partner stab should be banned.
 
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...

used for ingame promotional events. and the deeds status was to not hand the deeds to some other or to sell the deeds. The intention was only for NI dev team to have for be used for promotional events and nothing more.

...

So my opinion is that the result should be....

# All Avatars that brought the deeds further and know the truth about these deeds should be banned and pay back everything they earned on this.

# All avatars that did not know about the history behind these deeds should be fully reimbursed.


That sounds about right.

I would add Marius received these deeds as an official planet partner avatar i.e. his avatar would have not been for personal use. Marius should therefore be aware of the rules and regulations imposed on official avatars. Hence the reason no one at support told him not to sell those deeds because as an official he already knows that. At some stage Marius has decided to start using his avatar as a personal avatar. This is simply not allowed and he can't just start using an official avatar for personal use.

So where Marius tries to muddy the waters by saying the deeds were as payment that is astonishing how can it be payment onto an official avatar it would have to be to a new for personal use avatar if he were to receive them as payment. Or his avatar status would have to have been changed to for personal use and not official, it's clear this never happened therefore Marius is guilty of using an official avatar for personal profit. This is something that is simply not allowed.

Narfi may also be an official avatar. I'm not too sure what the status of his avatar is. He appears to work for ND. If Narfi is also an official avatar MA would know about that. However, he may be some kind of semi-official or possibly even for personal use but illegally used for some official business i.e. not officially tagged as an official avatar but used for some of those purposes. For us it's very difficult to be certain what his status is.

Anyway the point is if he is an official avatar or semi-official avatar he would also be bound by official avatar rules and regulations and as such support does not need to state to him don't sell those deeds. If he is a for personal use avatar he still had plenty of information to know that those deeds he should not sell on which he did anyway...

Fatal seems to be innocent and seems to have bought the bullshit Narfi told him about those deeds being bugged and can be fixed by talking to support. Something which Narfi knew to be untrue. Fatal so far seems to be the one who has been wronged in all this and lost out i.e. loss of peds and deeds.
 
Narfi isn't an official avatar but neverdie is and actively participates in the game including at one time long ago being a space pirate. I will leave the details of the latter to those who know more about it.

Narfi is just invested in rocktropia just as I am heavily invested in arkadia.
 
Skywalker, you are the one that's trying to muddy the water here... Narfi does not work for Neverdie, Rocktropia, or MindArk and he has already clearly explained that. I have had ongoing dialog with Narfi for an extended period of time and have done enough trade deals with him to be certain that he isn't an employee of some kind.

Moreover, Narfi (and also Marius) both claim that MindArk never once told them that they can not sell those Land Area deeds. Marius is not a person I know, but Narfi has a better rep then you, me, and possibly even MindArk.

It's no secret that I like to crucify scammers and I've been widely criticized (and praised) over the years for taking things too far with them sometimes... Regardless if you are friend or foe, if you scam, I'll see to it that you burn. Narfi is not exempt from that.

With that said, I have not seen evidence that Narfi scammed or mislead here. From what I have seen, he told Fatal 100% of what he knew about those deeds. I'd like to also believe that Marius didn't mislead Narfi but I don't know Marius... So far I don't see any holes in what he is saying.

Please don't use this topic as personal entertainment by stirring up the pot.
 
most entertaining thread in months :popcorn:
 
most entertaining thread in months :popcorn:

I know but it's also sad that it's come to this and affected so many people. It kinda seems like this is communication breakdown on top of communication breakdown compounding on top of each other. Who knows how many different employees in MindArk and MA support have interacted with Marius, Narfi, and now Fatal on this subject and in any company when that happens, it's a big mess.

No doubt MindArk is aware of this thread and getting to the bottom of this is a big cluster fuck for them. Hopefully they do what's right, and in their own best interest, which is to return the deeds to Fatal and let him claim those land areas.
 
Skywalker, you are the one that's trying to muddy the water here... Narfi does not work for Neverdie, Rocktropia, or MindArk and he has already clearly explained that. I have had ongoing dialog with Narfi for an extended period of time and have done enough trade deals with him to be certain that he isn't an employee of some kind.

Moreover, Narfi (and also Marius) both claim that MindArk never once told them that they can not sell those Land Area deeds. Marius is not a person I know, but Narfi has a better rep then you, me, and possibly even MindArk.

It's no secret that I like to crucify scammers and I've been widely criticized (and praised) over the years for taking things too far with them sometimes... Regardless if you are friend or foe, if you scam, I'll see to it that you burn. Narfi is not exempt from that.

With that said, I have not seen evidence that Narfi scammed or mislead here. From what I have seen, he told Fatal 100% of what he knew about those deeds. I'd like to also believe that Marius didn't mislead Narfi but I don't know Marius... So far I don't see any holes in what he is saying.

Please don't use this topic as personal entertainment by stirring up the pot.

I strongly agree. I like how Max HardWrath and Divinity try to offer solutions to this mess. I dislike how George Ace Skywalker is useing this as a stage for a vendetta he has against Narfi.
 
how many people here have had support cases over the years, where they have used lose wording to evade issues? I have seen it myself on just low lvl tickets.

obviously MA told narfi (these deeds were never supposed to be sold). (ok fair enough, so they weren't supposed to be sold, but they WERE. at no point did MA say we need to take these back from you soon, nor did they ever say DO NOT RE SELL THESE. they simply said 1 time that it was an error for them to be sold the first time.

Then after the fact they want to word play and act like he was told not to sell them? When has MA EVER told someone not to sell an item? hell even the egg got passed around.

If MA was in fact trying to order narfi not to sell the item, they once again did a very piss poor job at communication with the customer.

this whole situation is 100% MA's fault. if they had just ignored the situation then the buyer would have his worthless items and would be satisfied. Or if they took them from the owner (narfi, who contacted them many times to sort the item issue out) then it would never have escalated. Im sure we can think of 20 ways it could have been handled different.

Instead in typical MA fashion they wait til the absolute worst time to do anything, and then do the wrong thing. this is typical, this is historically the way they operate. How the hell is this narfis fault, 99% of the people in the game wouldn't even talk to you after the sale, much less try to sort it out with support with/for you. Sure at worst he sold a item he believed may never be worth anything. (don't we do this every day in game? or at least the speculators do), want to scalp me for selling a hanger? because MA never made it work?

Easy to put emotions in this but if we step back and look objectively at it is very hard not to come away with a bad taste for MA from this.
 
Easy to put emotions in this but if we step back and look objectively at it is very hard not to come away with a bad taste for MA from this.

Well, if they resolve the problem in a way that's satisfactory for Fatal, then all will be good.

You have to acknowledge that Fatal has backed MindArk into a corner here... And you can't really blame him for doing it either because none of this is his fault. If I were in his situation, the outburst from me likely would have been even larger, and the same would be true for a lot of you.

Whether there was a communication breakdown in MA, a poor judgement call by someone in MA, or a combination of both really doesn't matter. What does matter is that through these independently owned forums, the community as a whole is able to hold MindArk accountable and cause a satisfactory solution. After all, these forums are the last line of reasonable recourse for all of us.

The cause doesn't matter as much as the final outcome.
 
If they werent to be sold, then ma should have taken them when narfi sent the request or make them avatar bound.

They didnt but narfi sold them anyway (also a problem and shady if ma told.him not to sell). This triggers ma to take action before this.creates more drama. Rather than.fix the problem.with the estate, they confiscate an item where money exchanged hands (shady).

Fatal could.have done research but honestly.I have no idea where he would look. Reminds me a little.of.lillianes scams.

Regardless, the estates need fixed or trades reversed. Anything other than that is just bullshit.
 
Only Mindark knows the truth because they can viev all support tickets but of course they wont make them public.

Support always try to evade harsh statments and pack them in "flowers". They are slippery like a fresh waxed floor sometimes. I think it is very possible that the support meant to tell narfi "dont sell this deeds" but used some phrases and beat around the bush in a way that can interpreted that its still ok to sell them.

Sometimes i wish the support would use a more neutral language and not being overly friendly. If you ever got a reply from support (any support) and still dont got your awnser from the question you asked you might know what i mean.
 
I am usually one to jump on the bashing Mindark bandwagon, but not in this case. It seems to me the original holder of these deeds was supposed to use them for events. They were intended to become a PP owned event area. When the PP shut down, he took advantage and stole the really expensive stapler off his desk so to speak.

He then sold the stapler (illegal land areas) to Narfi. This should never have occurred. I'll keep my opinions of everything that happened after to myself so as not to offend, but the first issue is the thieving ex-employee who now says they were intended as payment (although they were given a different name than other land deeds).

MA should absolutely not activate land areas for a player who bought these since the land areas were never meant to exist as an in game item.

Read between the lines here folks. The holder of these deeds was an employee account, not a participant until NI went under. At that point he used this account to continue playing. His access to those deeds was as an employee, not as a participant.
 
Hopefully they do what's right, and in their own best interest, which is to return the deeds to Fatal and let him claim those land areas.

So you want the guy who originally sold the items that didn't belong to him to keep his money and remain unpunished.

Then you want the guy who bought and subsequently sold those stolen items to keep his money and remain unpunished.

Then you want the guy who finally bought the stolen items to not only keep them but also to reap a huge reward by having them made into standard income-generating land areas.

You're a real pillar of the community.

Has it occurred to any of you hysterical clowns that MA may have reclaimed the deeds in order to restore them to their rightful owner?
 
I am usually one to jump on the bashing Mindark bandwagon, but not in this case. It seems to me the original holder of these deeds was supposed to use them for events. They were intended to become a PP owned event area. When the PP shut down, he took advantage and stole the really expensive stapler off his desk so to speak.

He then sold the stapler (illegal land areas) to Narfi. This should never have occurred. I'll keep my opinions of everything that happened after to myself so as not to offend, but the first issue is the thieving ex-employee who now says they were intended as payment (although they were given a different name than other land deeds).

MA should absolutely not activate land areas for a player who bought these since the land areas were never meant to exist as an in game item.

Read between the lines here folks. The holder of these deeds was an employee account, not a participant until NI went under. At that point he used this account to continue playing. His access to those deeds was as an employee, not as a participant.



Who was the chief manager of this employee would surely be PP or NI but their decision has to wait for MA:s approval so it all falls back on MA.
All final responsibility always falls on top manager that's why he or she should make the reasons for his salary that is why there are managers to take responsibility and not just blame the responsibility on others and maintain their salary even he or she does not take responsibility over bad decision.


I wish now that MA putting all the cards on the table and tells the truth.

:twocents:
 
Who was the chief manager of this employee would surely be PP or NI but their decision has to wait for MA:s approval so it all falls back on MA.
All final responsibility always falls on top manager that's why he or she should make the reasons for his salary that is why there are managers to take responsibility and not just blame the responsibility on others and maintain their salary even he or she does not take responsibility over bad decision.


I wish now that MA putting all the cards on the table and tells the truth.

:twocents:

NI made a deed for a land area to be used for event by an employee. MA probably approved that, and there is no reason they should not have. NI nor MA approved Marius turning his employee account in to a player account and selling the property of NI.

End of story.
 
Sometimes i wish the support would use a more neutral language and not being overly friendly. If you ever got a reply from support (any support) and still dont got your awnser from the question you asked you might know what i mean.

Something in the line of:

"Don't sell the deeds.
We mean it.

If you so much as mention the land area names, Everything you say ingame will be replaced with a link to entrupiapartners with a random referral link, from the second you Think the thought until there are no more Words in the universe.

If you so much as have your deeds in a currently open window when you have an Active trade window, we will first cut your fingers one by one with a rusty hair stylist toolkit, after which we will send you to our penal camp, where you in daytime will do nothing but sweating snables, and in the night you will spend your time in a barn with not less than 147 recently waked berycleds; and if you do sell the deeds, we will take your family as collateral and sell them in ingame auction.

Beleive us, if you trespass upon us, we will make you beg for a one-way trip to Rura Penthe. And remember, if you are waiting for Death as a deliberator, remember that there are revival terminals ready to bring your soul back into the pity existance.

Have a nice day in entropia, Support."

? :laugh:
 
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Sorry, off-topic.
how many people here have had support cases over the years, where they have used lose wording to evade issues?

I just laughed a bit, possibly the first time i see the word "lose" written on EF (EVERYONE writes it as "loose"), and now that i've seen this "lose" word, it is being used in place of "loose", just funny.
Carry on :yup:
 
So you want the guy who originally sold the items that didn't belong to him to keep his money and remain unpunished.

Punished for what? The land areas were sold (given as payment for services) to Marius by the planet partner (Next Island) to do with as he pleases... Which includes selling them.

Seeing as how Next Island gave them to Marius directly, it would be very easy to assume that the land areas were legitimate. Any of us in his position would have assumed the same. Marius pointed out that he tried and tried to get MindArk to allow him to claim the deeds. Marius says that he was never told to not sell them.

Next Island should have known that those Land Areas were not to be put into circulation and as far as why they put them into circulation is unknown. The question there is: Did MindArk clearly communicate to Next Island that those deeds were never supposed to be transferred to anyone in the player base? If they did, then the perpetrator of a scam here is Next Island but then everyone else thereafter in the chain of ownership is a victim.


Then you want the guy who bought and subsequently sold those stolen items to keep his money and remain unpunished.

Stolen? Now you are just making up your own sequence of events. If you read the thread, especially posts which include email correspondence from MindArk to Narfi and Fatal, you will understand this better.

Then you want the guy who finally bought the stolen items to not only keep them but also to reap a huge reward by having them made into standard income-generating land areas..

They aren't stolen deeds.

Next Island created those land areas on their own planet for use on their own planet. If anyone had "ownership" of them, it would be Next Island, who's financially strapped owners decided to use them as payment for services rendered to Marius for him to do with as he pleases. Marius then sold to Narfi, who sold to Fatal.

I'm sure that it's a surprise to a lot of people that MindArk can and does dictate what parts of a Planet Partner's own planet can be sold by the Planet Partner. My guess is that back in those early days, when those deeds originated, the ground rules for such things were not clearly established or communicated, and may have even come into existence after the fact. If you recall, back then there were some outbursts on the forum by frustrated Calypso Land owners who were pissed about the Land Area market becoming so diluted with so many new lands everywhere.


<removed>

The rightful owner of those Deeds is Fatal and that's because he bought them from Narfi, who bought them from Marius, who received them from the Next Island owners as payment for services rendered. Because Fatal is the owner, and because he had enough balls and faith in this game to invest in it then yes, he should be the one who reaps the rewards and I hope those rewards are enormous. Frankly, he should be commended for having enough gumption to bring this to the forum instead of rolling over and allowing himself to get fucked over by the circumstance of the situation.
 
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Marius provides no proof that they were given as a payment for services rendered. Further the name of the deeds being different from all other land deeds would seem to indicate they are meant as an internal item. Sorry Hardwrath, I do not buy that these deeds were not willfully stolen by the original holder.
 
Marius provides no proof that they were given as a payment for services rendered. Further the name of the deeds being different from all other land deeds would seem to indicate they are meant as an internal item. Sorry Hardwrath, I do not buy that these deeds were not willfully stolen by the original holder.

Ok... Then how did he steal them from Next Island? Did he fly to New York, break into their offices into the middle of the night, log into their computers, and then transfer them to his avatar?

Marius wasn't a planet partner, his role seemed to have been more on the community side of things. It would be nice if he elaborated more on that point but right now the fact remains that there is a sum total of ZERO evidence that even hints at a theft of these deeds by Marius from Next Island.

It's very important that we don't start lobbing unsubstantiated, unfounded, and baseless accusations around at each other in the forums.
 
Like a lot of you, I very much want for there to be a simple black-and-white villain here, someone we can blame, a player who fucked this all up for everyone by scamming someone but things aren't always black-and white and things aren't always simple. Somewhere someone screwed up over these years, no doubt, but that doesn't mean someone mislead someone else and completed a trade based on a deceptive premise.

So far, based on the information that's been made available, it seems more and more like a series of failures in communication from the developer's side that have compounded on top of each other... Maybe that's what actually happened, maybe not. As of right now, we simply do not have enough information to us to know exactly what caused this.

My most immediate concern is the outcome of this for Fatal. He is just a guy that bought a Land Area, nothing more and nothing less.
 
This thread really does show which avatars are incapable of critically thinking. Additionally, Chinese whisper comes to mind.
 
The rightful owner of those Deeds is Fatal and that's because he bought them from Narfi, who bought them from Marius, who received them from the Next Island owners as payment for services rendered. Because Fatal is the owner, and because he had enough balls and faith in this game to invest in it then yes, he should be the one who reaps the rewards and I hope those rewards are enormous. Frankly, he should be commended for having enough gumption to bring this to the forum instead of rolling over and allowing himself to get fucked over by the circumstance of the situation.

Dude i agree with you on a lot of other issues but i think you are dead wrong here. In Sweden if you buy even without knowing that a item is stolen gods/sale was never approved by the owner then that item will be returned to the owner and you are shit out of luck and need to take it up with the seller. Thats how it works over here and MAs actions i think reflect this point of view almost to the letter.

We can argue forever about the wording of MAs support cases, to me they are crystal clear in there meaning to you they aren't. In my eyes Fatal isent the rightful owner of the deeds, he bought something that was not allowed to be sold thus the items were confiscated, simple. Should it have been done sooner? yes of course, probably the moment they landed in Marious inventory there should have been a red flag. Why they chose to wait this long to step in i do not know and would fault them for.

I don't think Inaction can be construde to mean legitimacy though, thats a route that none of us want to walk down.

Best regards
Zweshi
 
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one thing also hardwrath you may have posted before not sure but marius also said he sent a support ticket that the land bug and trying to get it in working order over a year ago so it been out in public hand for over a year maybe even 2

if it was not suppose to be sold to anyone why they didnt take it back then


the first person to blame is the person that made it and the person looking over the game that MA
 
Well both parties are selling out now. So good job MA.

Good direction... we need less people in this game.. way too many.........
 
Dude i agree with you on a lot of other issues but i think you are dead wrong here. In Sweden if you buy even without knowing that a item is stolen gods/sale was never approved by the owner then that item will be returned to the owner and you are shit out of luck and need to take it up with the seller. Thats how it works over here and MAs actions i think reflect this point of view almost to the letter.


Best regards
Zweshi

The thing of it is that this land deed was never stolen.

If you create a company and file the necessary paperwork to incorporate it, then that company is yours along with any physical, virtual, or intellectual property created by your company. That's exactly what this land area is. It was the property of Next Island.

If as a company, you enter into an agreement/partnership with another company to bring your planet online and into their virtual universe, they then can limit your ability to sell/transfer your property and items into their virtual universe so as not to disrupt and undermine the economic balance in their virtual economy, which you now are a part of. If you sell/gift/distribute your items without permission, it is not theft, it is however a breach of contract. MindArk, the only entity in a position to enforce the contract would have needed to immediately step in... But they didn't.

A planet partner can create as many land areas and items as they want, and they do, but they can not freely distribute them. If and when they do make an unauthorized sale/transfer of an unapproved item, MindArk needs to immediately step in and remove that item because if they allow it to exist, and especially to be sold from person to person, they then legitimize the existence of that item.

Once MA was put on notice that these deeds (unapproved items) were in the game, I feel it is their responsibility at that point to remove them, plain and simple. And their failure to remove them actually ratified their existence...once they knew unapproved items were in game, by not removing them, they created the problem, became the proximate cause of the events that transpired, and now have an affirmative duty to fix what they caused, or risk losing the most important thing of ours that MA has....trust.
 
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