Support Reminder - Item Lending

That ava who has the fap has been linked to be the alt of the scammer so it has been stolen/scammed. MA locked the ava because it was the scammer's alt as dalas confirms below.

It's quite a tentative link there, so it is not confirmed by anyone that the scammer IS Mr Adj Hedoc.



Quite honestly, I doubt anyone including myself would understand the complexity itself without reading this a couple times. Imagine the headache MA has to go through to get the desired result and avoid legal complications meanwhile ( banned ava's suing MA and all that) .

Understood and respected.



Yes, I am and from the way i see it they gave u an "inch" but u went for the "foot" and they said sorry , enough is enough and we all need to deal with our own problems.

Can you explain where the inch and foot are here? I see one case with two parts. Adapted T10 and Adjusted Hedoc Mayhem. They fixed one and halfway through the case decided to stop.

I take this as a slap on the wrist and a wagging finger from MA, telling me to be more careful.



Imagine they return one person ( not because of favorable individual but the situation was favorable) and they have to say no to others. That would likely cause a shit storm and and dare i say I totally agree with MA for now.

We don't need to imagine, they have done precisely that. Welcome to the shitstorm :D

If I was one of those who didn't have stuff returned after MA had returned two items, I'd be pretty damn pissed off I think.
 
The reason for that is because "All trades are final"... its a lawless environment that rewards the scammer, punishes the paying customer, and also hurts MindArk's bottom line long-term. Think about it: Why would you continue depositing at a high level after you get scammed and MA does nothing? Most wont and dont.

Thieves go unpunished as long as they dont break certain rules. Furthermore, earning someone's trust, getting them to loan you their item, and then keeping it apparently is not against the rules.

The policy of "All trades are final" results in a scammer's paradise and only perpetuates this ongoing problem that's plagued this game since the onset of Project Entropia.

Its not lawless, there is still the option to sue the scammers at RL court, what would be the right way.
Its normal internet business.

Example:
You buy something at EBay, and pay for it. Then you recive somthing wrong or even nothing.
Is it EBay that has to solve that problem, or is it a court that judges the thief/scammer ?

We got the same situation with EU. MA provides a plattform, that may be missused by criminals.
Its not MAs role to judge these criminals, therefor we got police and court.
MAs role is to hand out the needed data to the legal investigators, nothing more and nothing less.

Thats my 2 pec
 
Its not lawless, there is still the option to sue the scammers at RL court,

Why dont you try that option and see how far you get. The answer is that you will get no where. Keep in mind, you have to get a court thats willing to hear the case. When it comes to $500 or even $1000 items, the legal fees alone make even just exploring the option not worth it.
 
I thought i heard that the guy is getting back the deed coming VU.. I might be wrong but thats what i have heard... Personally, I totally disagree with MA taking the deed from his ava and I would always support any claim that brings the deed back to the guy. I guess we dint hear from MA and the avatar decided to remain quiet but then i cant be sure as this is info i have from a mutual friend of the avatar

It's the principal behind it, MA tells us to get collateral, but they themselves only pay TT, wich in most high value items is worth 0.000x% of that actual value..
Why should we trust them but not other ppl?
 
Why dont you try that option and see how far you get. The answer is that you will get no where. Keep in mind, you have to get a court thats willing to hear the case. When it comes to $500 or even $1000 items, the legal fees alone make even just exploring the option not worth it.

Nobody scammed me.
I avoid the risk of scams! I take colateral in case I lend out some of my items.

In Germany courts will listen, internet crime is a serious problem.
If it is worth or not should be everyones own decision.
 
Nobody scammed me.
I avoid the risk of scams! I take colateral in case I lend out some of my items.

In Germany courts will listen, internet crime is a serious problem.
If it is worth or not should be everyones own decision.

In Germany eh? And what can they do to someone in another country? NOTHING!!!
 
It's the principal behind it, MA tells us to get collateral, but they themselves only pay TT, wich in most high value items is worth 0.000x% of that actual value..
Why should we trust them but not other ppl?

Thats not the total truth.
Back the days when we had the bugged Thorkelds Cave Shops, MA took away the deeds aswell.
Later MA refunded the total price the buyers originally paid for the deeds (bugfix seemed not to work).
Again later, MA introduced New Oxford Mall and offered every original buyer of Thorkelds Cave Shop the option to buy one of the Mall Shops at same price they did pay for the Thorkelds Cave Shop. Most used it (me too) others kept their money.

Some things just take time, although I have to say, back that days it took way to long time. At the end I am happy with the solution MA found in that old case.

Anyways taking these deeds (obviously bugged/not functional) is something totally different.
 
Its not lawless, there is still the option to sue the scammers at RL court, what would be the right way.
Its normal internet business.

Example:
You buy something at EBay, and pay for it. Then you recive somthing wrong or even nothing.
Is it EBay that has to solve that problem, or is it a court that judges the thief/scammer ?

We got the same situation with EU. MA provides a plattform, that may be missused by criminals.
Its not MAs role to judge these criminals, therefor we got police and court.
MAs role is to hand out the needed data to the legal investigators, nothing more and nothing less.

Thats my 2 pec


Ebay DOES take care of the vast majority of shit storms that occur in their house!

And a legal avenue, though possible, is entirely unrealistic in an international game.

Jesus....why do people constantly have to play the role of contrarian, even when they make no sense at all?

I know, it's the forums...blah, blah, blah...what can I expect.
 
Here is a better example...

if there was a room with 10 dudes, and a big tattooed naked dude walks in and starts F$&ing the $hit out of one guy, how long do you think the other 9 will stay around?

The last time i had a fight the guys tattoos didn't jump off and start helping him so i would say the other 9 would kick his face in for being a huge tattooed homosexual rapist then call the police.

These analogies are a bit off the mark if you ask me you weird group sex orientated bastards :)
 
something to add to the wishlist.. a rental service thing.. kinda like the auction; people can rent out items from users.. then after time expires it automatically goes back to the owner...

but fat chance right.. probably a lot of
Code:
needed for that one..  (◔̯◔)
would allow people to collect small fees for renting gear without the need for massive collateral equivalent to item value.
 
Why dont they just make it (loan system)? Shouldnt be hard, banks working same principal, MA even could get some cut of rental fees n all happy
 
Why dont they just make it (loan system)? Shouldnt be hard, banks working same principal, MA even could get some cut of rental fees n all happy

you hear that MA.. you make more money!! :yay:
 
Its not lawless, there is still the option to sue the scammers at RL court, what would be the right way.
Its normal internet business.

Example:
You buy something at EBay, and pay for it. Then you recive somthing wrong or even nothing.
Is it EBay that has to solve that problem, or is it a court that judges the thief/scammer ?

We got the same situation with EU. MA provides a plattform, that may be missused by criminals.
Its not MAs role to judge these criminals, therefor we got police and court.
MAs role is to hand out the needed data to the legal investigators, nothing more and nothing less.

Thats my 2 pec

For your information, Yes, Ebay actually protects their sellers and customers. They will get it resolved where u r not fucked out of your money. You can bet your ass on that. Clearly you have never used ebay to buy or sell things or you wouldn't have picked the perfect example for exactly the opposite of your argument.

I think you dropped this---->:dunce: put it back on and stand in the corner and stfu if you have nothing of value to add to the discussion


LB
:wise:
 
For your information, Yes, Ebay actually protects their sellers and customers. They will get it resolved where u r not fucked out of your money. You can bet your ass on that. Clearly you have never used ebay to buy or sell things or you wouldn't have picked the perfect example for exactly the opposite of your argument.

I think you dropped this---->:dunce: put it back on and stand in the corner and stfu if you have nothing of value to add to the discussion


LB
:wise:

Yes Lunch is quite correct, i purchased a $400 audio recorder from ebay and it was a scam to which Paypal credited my account with $400 within 1 day of it occurring.

They do this to protect their reputation and to give customer confidence where money is concerned... the exact opposite of Mindark's way of doing business, perhaps Mindark fell for the illusion that ped isn't really real money.
 
It's all about who have the $$$$ to be heard in this game.

Think Squalls mistake by TTing a UL amp got us the 500 or 1k ped fee to get items back. Think so many people BEFORE that asked for the same. But it's not even close by money standards

And with these last "trust scams" that got taken from the "borrower" ( all trades are final ) back to the original owner. It's all about cash.

Does this mean Certain avas own so much ingame that they can overthrow the whole economy if choosing to quit and sell out?

So if u didn't get ur items back. Ur not rich enough for MA to care ^^
 
customer confidence

Whats this you speak of? Customer confidence?

I really have hard time staying out of this thread because EU is something I like a lot, I spend a lot of time here, its an escape for me, and my PED card continues to grow. Some of these latest clusterfucks really bother me.

The fact is that there are two things at the core of any healthy economy, they are Consumer Confidence and also Property Ownership. Without those things, you can not have a functioning economy. You just cant.

Property Ownership in EU has always been a problem, on numerous levels. Specifically the EULA makes it cloudy at best and as a result, it substantially inhibits any kind of real investment in EU. There is no shortage of well-to-do people in the current player base that would invest heavily if we had absolute unequivocal ownership over the pixels that we purchase in-game.

Consumer Confidence and overall faith in this game would increase substantially if MindArk produced a secure system that allowed for human nature (lending to friends) while safeguarding our investments from scammers.

If both of these things were in place, MindArk and it's investors would have more money then they know what to do with.
 
In another game someone came up with a good idea on how unique cases of virtual crime could be dealt with.

Maybe it would be a good idea to offer a ingame trust scam insurance that one could subscribe to paying a monthly fee and employ one member of staff from the subscription fees just for researching trade issues and solving them for the parties involved.

Mindark wouldnt need to change their policy but everyone who feels like loaning stuff at risk or dealing with high value items without being bothered to care about colateral could actually pay to get his issue solved. Might as well allow to purchase an investigation for single cases if being a non-subscriber, that way people who figured out to be scammed all by the same person could team up to fund an in depth investigation together.

Noone here wants mindark to spent all their time on solving trade issues and we all know they dont earn enough to keep additional staff just for that matter, so adding a system to fund such actions straight would be the best way to solve all kinds of matters until the system can be improved to avoid certain occassions.
 
here's my 2 pec :twocents:

I think it will be in the best interest for MA to explain what they will do in these loan/stolen matters.

Do they give back loaned items found on locked accounts, given enough proof?
Will they implement a loaning system?
Is MA planning to give an in-depth explanation as to why they stop helping to return items? (Another player has written a great understandable explanation that makes perfect sense. See page 2, Colbert Kal)

I think I have asked this in the past before, but MA communicate, or hire some one to do it for you.

The details on the loaning matter is not a thing that you should keep from us, considering your secrecy on the market that can result in market manipulation. That, most of us understand. This however, feels not as a thing that falls under those rules and should be explained.

Maybe, whenever you release a statement like this, or any other, to the player base, ask yourself. Do we need to ELI5 (Explain like I'm 5) to the playerbase, or are we not able to release details due to market manipulation?
 
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i heard ebay coming out whit something new

you can lend your stuff to other and if they dont return it back they try to get your item back lol

dont lend out what you dont want to loose problem solve


if they start the lending out stuff out now some item will be out of reach of the poeple that dont have hug money to buy it

and before they make it happen the loan system it will be like the other stuff they added whit out thinking there other poeple out here that can abuse the system


and for me it just another way that a certain bunch of poeple can rent out the item and take more money out of the game making it worst than it is now

i think no one out here goes out in town even if you seen the person on the street before or talk to them a bit if the person ask for a 1000 dollars loan he hand it to him
 
MindArk is not a government. Items in EU have an actual real world value. MindArk, nor it's employees, are qualified to judge who should have possession of an asset. While it's probably not worth your time, or legal expenses, you do have a right to sue in a real world court.

I just wanted to clarify, these items do not exist, technically there is nothing of value at all but the entertainment expenses we put into it.
We would still have a very hard time in court arguing that all of the entertainment money spent on an activity should be redeemable. They would argue that people don't get to redeem get cash back for all of the movies they watched, or similar examples.

Collectively the game has an economy we participate in, but it has no legal value or ownership outside of MA alone. IN EU, MA is the government and the authority.

The only time these assets return the value is when the peds are withdrawn, until then, it is simply an MA asset.

Peds hold all value, items do not.
 
In recent weeks there has been at least two cases (that I know about) that MA retrieved item from another avatar after it has been reported as a scam.

My question is: how do you qualify some cases to be dealt with and reverse trade while announcing that all trades are final and most likely ignoring most of scam cases?
Does one need to have special contacts to get help?

I guess official policy is that some trades are more final than others.
 
1st - Why the fck people still ask for lending system.. Nobody wants their items loosing drastically value and that's what would exactly happen. If that would not be the case MA would already implement it with % of peds going into their pocket. Rest assured about that.

2nd - Why the fck people complain about double edged sword. Be happy few people got an item back, but don't automatically expect this to be a new standard. MA must have "all trades are final" stand, else they would go crazy.

Do you understand you would need to have full department of people working on analysing logs and doing sherlock work just because people stupidly borrow items with real money value to each other without collateral?

Somebody in MA did a mistake helping out, even it was really obvious and easy to revert. Exactly because of people like you, that automatically now shout about double edged swords etc..

You are free to lend items, you know the risk, so stop complaining!!!

Man, I am so pissed from people way of thinking.
 
This is about to blow up big.

To show favoritism to some and not to others, well, that is just about the worst thing in the world that they could ever do.

*cough* Squalls amp case *cough*

how many had TTd something valuable while getting pee'd in the eye by MA before this one fellow lost his precious amp to the TT machine

i doubt i would get my items back on similar cases..

but yea i still think its their own fault who ever loan expensive shit around and should not get "refunded"
 
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*cough* Squalls amp case *cough*

how many had TTd something valuable while getting pee'd in the eye by MA before this one fellow lost his precious amp to the TT machine

i doubt i would get my items back on similar cases..

but yea i still think its their own fault who ever loan expensive shit around and should not get "refunded"

Its no problem with that... If you TT something valuable you pay MA 1000 peds for theres work and then are you getting back your item.

As you can see MA writes nowdays " Entropia Universe official policy is that all trades between avatars are final" Before it was " Entropia Universe official policy is that all trades are final" but we all knows the history about the Oreamp 105 (ul).
 
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Please remember that the Entropia Universe official policy is that all trades between avatars are final.

If thats the case, does this mean you shouldnt have locked the avatars that scammed such items?
I guess we just got a new profession to add to game " Scammer" i hope it gives good skills because we will have ubers in no time.
 
Its no problem with that... If you TT something valuable you pay MA 1000 peds for theres work and then are you getting back your item.

As you can see MA writes nowdays " Entropia Universe official policy is that all trades between avatars are final" Before it was " Entropia Universe official policy is that all trades are final" but we all knows the history about the Oreamp 105 (ul).

yes.. but that wasnt the case until squall TTd his amp.. so thats the problem
 
I just wanted to clarify, these items do not exist, technically there is nothing of value at all but the entertainment expenses we put into it.
We would still have a very hard time in court arguing that all of the entertainment money spent on an activity should be redeemable. They would argue that people don't get to redeem get cash back for all of the movies they watched, or similar examples.

Collectively the game has an economy we participate in, but it has no legal value or ownership outside of MA alone. IN EU, MA is the government and the authority.

The only time these assets return the value is when the peds are withdrawn, until then, it is simply an MA asset.

Peds hold all value, items do not.


If I bought a ticket to a sports event (Super Bowl or World Cup) and that ticket was taken through fraud I could sue the con-man. That it only cost cents to print the physical ticket does not mean I could only sue for cents, I could sue for the purchase price. The same could be said for works of art.

There are lots of assets that don't take up physical space. Value in a legal sense is very broad. It's easy to establish - if sometimes hard to find an exact number for. The simplest method is an arms length transaction; Person A exchanges item X to Person B for item Y. If either X or Y has a known value, then both X and Y are assumed to have approximately that value.
 
...from the way i see it they gave u an "inch" but u went for the "foot" and they said sorry , enough is enough and we all need to deal with our own problems.

Can you explain where the inch and foot are here? I see one case with two parts. Adapted T10 and Adjusted Hedoc Mayhem. They fixed one and halfway through the case decided to stop.

The inch is obvious you got back a fap that you owned and loaned out. The foot you tried to take is when you loaned out an item that did not belong to you. That turned the support case into a bigger mess since it was Quins fap that another avatar received without doing a trade with him.

If I borrow my brothers car for the day, I'm not going to hand the keys to some guy who I see walking down the street who offers to give me some money if I will let him drive it to the store.
 
MA, if there was a room with 10 dudes, and one girl, and that girl was only having sex with 1 of the 10 guys, how long do you think the other 9 are gonna stay in that room?


On the other hand, do you really want the girl to be with you for a few hours and just because you paid someone else for it and knowing she's not more faithful to you than anyone else in the room?

You don't want a faithful girl who will be by your side when you need it the most even the times you feel broke, and the COSTs you have is COSTs just to make the two of you have memorable moments together (or, well apart, if you give the girl a vacation on Hawaii while you Watch sports championship finals on TV).
 
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The inch is obvious you got back a fap that you owned and loaned out. The foot you tried to take is when you loaned out an item that did not belong to you. That turned the support case into a bigger mess since it was Quins fap that another avatar received without doing a trade with him.

If I borrow my brothers car for the day, I'm not going to hand the keys to some guy who I see walking down the street who offers to give me some money if I will let him drive it to the store.

If you look at the timeline I posted, you'll see that both tools were rented before any support contact was established. I could not have helped the Adj Hedoc being locked by being more careful after the first case, because it happened AT THE SAME TIME, AS A CONSEQUENCE of the first Adapted Vivo T10.

It's not two things, it's one thing with two parts.
 
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