Support Reminder - Item Lending

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The Entropia Universe support team has experienced a recent increase in cases involving the lending of items to other avatars which are not returned, sometimes referred to as “trust scams”.

Please remember that the Entropia Universe official policy is that all trades between avatars are final. If you lend items to another participant, the Entropia Universe support team can offer no assistance in cases where the lent items are not returned. As such, it is recommended to never lend items without equivalent collateral.

Originally Posted Here
 
Oke, and if I read correctly 'between the lines' then MindArk will also put no effort in creating a system where items can be loaned and returned.

It doesn't have to be a very complicated system, just a little terminal will do. One player puts his 'Item A' in the terminal and sets the loaning conditions like max. duration and loancosts (per hour/ day/ click). The next player comes and wants to loan 'Item A', wich is only possible if he has the TT-value + max. loancosts + fee for MindArk (~1% of loancosts?) + 100PED collectoral on his PED-Card. He loans 'Item A' for one week and before the week is over he returns it. What he gets back is all his PEDs minus TT-value difference (when returned with lower TT-value) - used loancosts (depending of the loantime or clicks) - MindArk's fee. Become 'Item A' is returned in time, he also gets his 100 PED collectoral back.
Now comes another player who loans 'Item A', but who doesn't return it when the week is over. Before his time ran out, he got a message reminding him to return the loaned item ofcourse. Now with every passing hour he losses 5PED collectoral. When he still ignores the warning messages, 'Item A' will be locked for use when he has only 25PED collectoral left and he got one hour to return it or else he losses all his collectoral. Then 'Item A' is automaticly returned to the Loan-terminal to be picked up by the next player.
The collectoral is split between the owner of the item and MindArk when the item is not returned in time. During a loan the owner can tick an option that when the loanduration is over, the item is not loanable again. A loaned item is locked for all trade, dropping, taking of Planet, tiering, ... and what more is deemed neccesarry.
*** the 100PED collectoral depends on the (market-)value of the item. ***

Better then just let people get fouled by Trust-scams and MindArk to say "whoops, all trades are final, sucker", in fact MindArk even makes a bit of money with a system like this because of the fees. Or make it a building, a Loancenter if you will, wherefor the deeds can be sold by MindArk thus even more money first from the deed-selling, then from all the fees (cut between MindArk and the owner).

:scratch2::confused::scratch2:
 
In recent weeks there has been at least two cases (that I know about) that MA retrieved item from another avatar after it has been reported as a scam.

My question is: how do you qualify some cases to be dealt with and reverse trade while announcing that all trades are final and most likely ignoring most of scam cases?
Does one need to have special contacts to get help?
 
The Entropia Universe support team has experienced a recent increase in cases involving the lending of items to other avatars which are not returned, sometimes referred to as “trust scams”.

Please remember that the Entropia Universe official policy is that all trades between avatars are final. If you lend items to another participant, the Entropia Universe support team can offer no assistance in cases where the lent items are not returned. As such, it is recommended to never lend items without equivalent collateral.

Originally Posted Here

You already set a precedent of getting peoples items returned to them recently, or is it just who you know that gets things sorted.
 
This is about to blow up big.

To show favoritism to some and not to others, well, that is just about the worst thing in the world that they could ever do.

I don't know how they are going to overcome this one, unless they implement the goddamn item-loan interface that we asked for, which they should have done years ago...

But as far as I am concerned, the damage is done by this statement, and I am now FULLY 100% no-turning-back DISGUSTED at MA.

I honestly CANNOT believe that MA has the audacity to make a statement like this weeks after helping certain players get their items back.
 
This really is a crap ass double standard. I had an item stolen or we will call it forever borrowed by an unnamed. Punk ass........pm for name and the above announcement was basically what I got from support. While others had their items returned to them. I had proof of everything and ma didn't give a shit.

I was kind enough to let an ex socmate borrow a gun for almost a year, would pay and tier it when needed and lend back, so that person wouldn't have to pay much for a gun. Only 5 of this gun in game and this asshole sells my gun for a fifthof the value I had been offered for it by another avatar for over a year. When I finally decide to sell to the person who wanted it. I find it had been sold to someone else a couple weeks prior.

So, no more pedal shall I put into this shitty ass system
 
I agree that they could easily add a loan feature to the trade window similar to that used by the banks. Item to be loaned for time frame in one window, collateral in other window. Or arranged such that item is automatically returned at a certain time frame agreed upon and set.
 
wow that sucks, help some but middlefingers to others
 
MA, if there was a room with 10 dudes, and one girl, and that girl was only having sex with 1 of the 10 guys, how long do you think the other 9 are gonna stay in that room?
 
In recent weeks there has been at least two cases (that I know about) that MA retrieved item from another avatar after it has been reported as a scam.
?

There were 3 items scammed by the same avatar with 4 different accounts.
2 items were returned but mine ( the third) wasn't.

It just sucks that I had to be one of the "screwed" ones with my adjusted hedoc at tier 4.6 :(

Unfortunately for me, the wife warned me " if you dont get that healing thing back, i dont want you on the computer anymore"

So i guess this is it for me, just need to sell whats left
 
I only know what ive read on the forum from the two situations that were solved by support so i might be off base here but weren't both cases kinda lucky in the fact that the scammer TT'ed the objects? thus making the situation just leaps and bounds easier to solve. For them to just reiterate that the base line is non-interferance i don't think is double sided if the cases that were solved did not involve actually removing the item from someones inventory and placing it in someone elses.

The issues with a loan system have been discussed over and over in the past, the concern is not for technical implementation, but in the way such a system would be used by the player base. Wouldn't take long to come up with a list of 10 ways it could be abused... That being said it might be worth implementing such a system for a 6 month trial period and seeing how it goes.

Best regards
Zweshi
 
Reading between the lines... you only get things back if you have an "in" with MA?
 
I feel like someone has to defend MindArk, at least a little here. At a minimum try and see things from their point of view.

I'm not an attorney, but there's a major legal issue here. From what I understand, only Governments are legally allowed take property from an unwilling person - 'Self Help' is not a general right. If something has been stolen (or taken through fraud) from you, you are supposed to have the government take action. Legal issues get even more complicated since people are interacting with individuals in other countries.

MindArk is not a government. Items in EU have an actual real world value. MindArk, nor it's employees, are qualified to judge who should have possession of an asset. While it's probably not worth your time, or legal expenses, you do have a right to sue in a real world court. In either the ToU or the EULA, in the privacy clause MA states that any information they have will be given concerning relevant parties if legal action is taken. When people ask MindArk to get involved in a Fraud situation you are asking them to do something they (arguably) do not have a legal right to do.

In the fraud situation involving the FAP the Planet Calypso spokesman made it clear that because they item was TT'd they were able to recreate it and give it back to the victim. If you think about it, they did not say there was any action taken against the con-man! They created a new item (with the same stats) and gave it to the victim. In a very real sense it cost MA (or PlanetCalypso) the TT value of the item. That simple action got plenty of good will for very little cost.

With the whole Deed situation MA *took* the deed from a players inventory. This upset many players - it sounds like it upset some well known players enough to quit the game. It was seen as an example representing MA being able to take anything from any player at their sole discretion. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if that player has grounds to sue MA, in the real world. The player gave bargained for value to a third party in exchange for the property, and MA took the property without permission or compensation. (There are multiple types / definitions of property rights - And no, the EULA / TOS are not guaranteed to be perfect protection in legal situations.)

In the end, MA being a neutral party makes a lot of sense. Anything else and they are asking to get into trouble.


All that being said.... Put in a functional way to loan out items for heaven's sake! Currently MindArk's hand are tied and legal remedies are not a practical option when theft takes place. However, having Strong property rights are the foundation to economics! If there is one thing that separates EU from other MMO it is the economy. Anything that strengthens the economy should take first priority!
 
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MA, if there was a room with 10 dudes, and one girl, and that girl was only having sex with 1 of the 10 guys, how long do you think the other 9 are gonna stay in that room?

.... so like a live sex show? :whip:

They may stay in there for a while......:wtg:
 
As such, it is recommended to never lend items without equivalent collateral.
There currently is no such thing as collateral in the current system that exists in game as 'all trades are final'. Since all trades are final there is no such thing as collateral.
col·lat·er·al
kəˈlatərəl,kəˈlatrəl/Submit
noun
1.
something pledged as security for repayment of a loan, to be forfeited in the event of a default.
synonyms: security, surety, guarantee, guaranty, insurance, indemnity, indemnification; backing
"she put up her house as collateral for the loan"
It appears that Mindark is asking people to do things that they do not have a system in game for yet as there is no loaning system in game (unless maybe you count the banks, but that's a different type of thing than what they are suggesting here)?
 
There currently is no such thing as collateral in the current system that exists in game as 'all trades are final'. Since all trades are final there is no such thing as collateral. It appears that Mindark is asking people to do things that they do not have a system in game for yet?

It is collateral. It is a way for you to recover the peds you lost if they don't give you the item back, same as IRL. What they really mean though is treat all trades as if they're final... both parties should be happy if it were a simple sale rather than a loan.
 
MA, if there was a room with 10 dudes, and one girl, and that girl was only having sex with 1 of the 10 guys, how long do you think the other 9 are gonna stay in that room?


​Bad example....I'm guessing all, well except the gay ones.
 
Oke, and if I read correctly 'between the lines' then MindArk will also put no effort in creating a system where items can be loaned and returned.

It doesn't have to be a very complicated system, just a little terminal will do. One player puts his 'Item A' in the terminal and sets the loaning conditions like max. duration and loancosts (per hour/ day/ click). The next player comes and wants to loan 'Item A', wich is only possible if he has the TT-value + max. loancosts + fee for MindArk (~1% of loancosts?) + 100PED collectoral on his PED-Card. He loans 'Item A' for one week and before the week is over he returns it. What he gets back is all his PEDs minus TT-value difference (when returned with lower TT-value) - used loancosts (depending of the loantime or clicks) - MindArk's fee. Become 'Item A' is returned in time, he also gets his 100 PED collectoral back.
Now comes another player who loans 'Item A', but who doesn't return it when the week is over. Before his time ran out, he got a message reminding him to return the loaned item ofcourse. Now with every passing hour he losses 5PED collectoral. When he still ignores the warning messages, 'Item A' will be locked for use when he has only 25PED collectoral left and he got one hour to return it or else he losses all his collectoral. Then 'Item A' is automaticly returned to the Loan-terminal to be picked up by the next player.
The collectoral is split between the owner of the item and MindArk when the item is not returned in time. During a loan the owner can tick an option that when the loanduration is over, the item is not loanable again. A loaned item is locked for all trade, dropping, taking of Planet, tiering, ... and what more is deemed neccesarry.
*** the 100PED collectoral depends on the (market-)value of the item. ***

I asked for this feature a few years back, and the short answer was no, they will never make an option for a 'to be loaned' feature.
 
I find it really hard to have sympathy for those who would give out expensive virtual items that were purchased by real $ or the equivalent for nothing in return. It sucks, but you knew the risks.

As for the "double standard", some of the comments in this thread is why I never wanted any of them returned to begin with and why I think Dalas's system, while clever and beneficial, is extremely dangerous. Now that they opened this Pandora's Box, everyone is now bitching because they realized they made a mistake.

The answer isn't a loan system... so please stop using this as an echo chamber to get this going. it is a non-starter. If you are going to loan, loan with sufficient collateral to such a point that it would almost be worth that they don't return it. Otherwise, you take the risks.

I've had "friends" run off with $20.. sometimes your friendships aren't worth as much to them as they do to you and people will turn on you for a pack of smokes. I now even have my PARENTS sign a promissory note with the understanding that I will sue them if they don't pay it back.
 
Sounds like MA helped a few people then realised they'd be handling a dozen cases per week as players would just start loaning with the knowledge that they'll get the item back even if the guy screws them. So IMO, all is fine there.

Loan system, no thanks. You'll just end up with a few guys owning dozens of high end items and loaning them to player who would have been able to buy them if it wasn't for the loan system.

If you want to give someone $1000 and expect them to give you it back then fine, just don't expect nanny to help as they have other things to do.
 
I don't get it. What do I have to do in order to get support if I get scammed? because there has been people who have gotten things reversed, and now you say that "all trades are final and we can't do anything".

Well, for some? and not for others? how? and why? is this fair?
 
MA, if there was a room with 10 dudes, and one girl, and that girl was only having sex with 1 of the 10 guys, how long do you think the other 9 are gonna stay in that room?

Here is a better example...

if there was a room with 10 dudes, and a big tattooed naked dude walks in and starts F$&ing the $hit out of one guy, how long do you think the other 9 will stay around?
 
I find it really hard to have sympathy for those who would give out expensive virtual items that were purchased by real $ or the equivalent for nothing in return. It sucks, but you knew the risks.

As for the "double standard", some of the comments in this thread is why I never wanted any of them returned to begin with and why I think Dalas's system, while clever and beneficial, is extremely dangerous. Now that they opened this Pandora's Box, everyone is now bitching because they realized they made a mistake.

The answer isn't a loan system... so please stop using this as an echo chamber to get this going. it is a non-starter. If you are going to loan, loan with sufficient collateral to such a point that it would almost be worth that they don't return it. Otherwise, you take the risks.

I've had "friends" run off with $20.. sometimes your friendships aren't worth as much to them as they do to you and people will turn on you for a pack of smokes. I now even have my PARENTS sign a promissory note with the understanding that I will sue them if they don't pay it back.

Miss the point, much?

We all know how collateral works. We all know what assumption of risk means.

This thread exists because, knowing those things, we still loan stuff without collateral, and should be given a safe means of doing so if we want to.

A loan system without collateral is what benefits the game, though.

Loaning an Imp Fap to one of the few people with 120k free peds does not help much. Loaning great faps and other gear to newer players looking to skill by healing, or who CANT AFFORD certain gear, but want to use it, THAT is what helps the game.

THAT is what gets items gathering dust in storage out into circulation, and therefore inducing cycling, playing time, skill growth, and therefore player base.

Therefore, we need to discuss how that can be facilitated.


Your condescending and conceited (yes that's rude of me to say, but I still love you :) ) post misses the issue. How you lend shit or treat your family...that's not the point. We are not crying "why me", we all understand the risks...but the double standard, and the feasibility of introducing a loan system, should, can, and will be discussed, as it has been, and as it will be.

The point in this thread is: A) MA treating some players differently, and B) what alternatives (other than collateral) can be implemented to facilitate safe lending of items.

Now that you are back on point, what do you suggest?
 
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Here is a better example...

if there was a room with 10 dudes, and a big tattooed naked dude walks in and starts F$&ing the $hit out of one guy, how long do you think the other 9 will stay around?

Ok that one is much better...LMAO
 
Miss the point, much?

We all know how collateral works. We all know what assumption of risk means.

This thread exists because, knowing those things, we still loan stuff without collateral, and should be given a safe means of doing so if we want to.

A loan system without collateral is what benefits the game, though.

Loaning an Imp Fap to one of the few people with 120k free peds does not help much. Loaning great faps and other gear to newer players looking to skill by healing, or who CANT AFFORD certain gear, but want to use it, THAT is what helps the game.

THAT is what gets items gathering dust in storage out into circulation, and therefore inducing cycling, playing time, skill growth, and therefore player base.

Therefore, we need to discuss how that can be facilitated.


Your condescending and conceited (yes that's rude of me to say, but I still love you :) ) post misses the issue. How you lend shit or treat your family...that's not the point. We are not crying "why me", we all understand the risks...but the double standard, and the feasibility of introducing a loan system, should, can, and will be discussed, as it has been, and as it will be.

The point in this thread is: A) MA treating some players differently, and B) what alternatives (other than collateral) can be implemented to facilitate safe lending of items.

Now that you are back on point, what do you suggest?

Now who has the condescending tone (never mind the tantrum of yet another rage quit). You went right to my last paragraph and missed everything I said. I don't agree in a loan system like banks for all the reasons that were once discussed in the other dozen threads. I do however hope they could come up with a system that would make sense and not tarnish the game economy, but alas.. we have the monster pills debacle.. so I do not trust Mindark with those capabilities. Perhaps if one of you wants to actually PAY for such a system and own it, perhaps you can design it and they will build it. Until then, it will not happen.

I've learned that arguing with you about anything including the color of the sky is pointless when you have blood shooting out of your eyes... so I will spare myself the drama and not bother.

My comments were directed at those complaining about double standard and complaining that they didn't get their items back. You knew the risks, your items were stolen. The double standard is, as I said but perhaps you missed, the problem with opening the Pandora's Box and then trying to close it. You can't and if you recall the teamspeak discussions, where you also subsequently bit my head off again (like this thread), you would know that I already told you this would happen when they later would have to backtrack because people were only emboldened to recklessly take these risks thinking they could get their items back. Support time is limited never mind the fact that people complain they can't get a hold of support as it is and we want to bog them down with this.
 
Nothing to see here - just move on.
 
If you lend items to another participant, the Entropia Universe support team can offer no assistance in cases where the lent items are not returned.


What about when the loaned items are on an avatar that you locked for unknown reasons?

What then? Why should the person who loaned the item to the locked person have to suffer?
 
That's your opinion.

Right or wrong, not sure - my opinion is that a majority (>75% of population) would be in favor.

Find a suitable system that will reasonably not cause the game economy to have problems (item value), and I am for it. That has always been my stance (hence my reference to the other threads).

In the end, I hope they come up with something. My opinion is, make another thread and pitch the idea. Don't do it in this thread because it will get muddled with all the complaints and sort of is a bit off topic. It would be better organized. Maybe even one of the planet partners, Calypso or Arkadia, would pick it up to pitch to Mindark. Hell, I will even do one better and contact the Ark officials to get them to take a look.
 
Loan system, no thanks. You'll just end up with a few guys owning dozens of high end items and loaning them to player who would have been able to buy them if it wasn't for the loan system.

Although I'm not decided if loaning system would be good or bad for the game, issue that you mention could be easily solved by limiting number of items that could be loaned in this system at the same time. I doubt any would be daft enough to hoard 100 items and be able to loan only very few of them without collateral.
 
If we are going to ask MA to engineer out every single stupid thing that is possible in this game, then can I also add these to the list:

1. Write some code to stop me depositing
2. Write some more code to stop me shooting mobs that are too big for me
3. Write some code to stop me mining in PvP so I won't lose my finds
4. Write some code to stop me going on a hunt with the wrong ammo (am I the only one?)

and so on.

There are enough woeful threads and warnings from MA about trading yet people still ignore them and then demand a fix so that they can be lazy and avoid responsibility for their actions. Trade windows were turned into a 2 stage process to give us time to think....maybe we need a third window that says 'Do you think you are going to get this back?' Yes/No

Or, you could just take my approach....never own anything worth stealing.

Ff

Oh, and if there are double standards at play here, shame on you MA.
 
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