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Support Reminder - Item Lending

This thread amazes me. Reminds me of why we have so many problems with our country these days. We need new social programs, safety nets, new laws when only the existing need enforced to solve every incident that ever happens. Except that people choose to stay poor, ignore education or do not seek it (we are in an information age), choose never to safe, choose to take unnecessary risk.. but when the risk isn't migrated and it comes due.. we look for the government to bail out and cry foul that it could have ever been possible. And for optics politicians swoop in as champions of the people and create laws to solve said problem never mind the fact that it can have devastating consequences if it were to be enacted. (Social security, nonaffordable healthcare act, etc).

Many will miss my analogy and well.. that just proves my point. People built business practices around an unmitigated risk event and got stung. I hope we are more careful in the future. I'd love to see the items returned but in the end.. even if accounts were locked and not necessarily scammed.. it was still done without collateral and you then have no recourse except beg and plead to mindark.

I realize I am taking an unfavorable stance in this thread but not all favorable stances are the right ones when emotion is involved.
 
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atomicstorm said:
This thread amazes me. Reminds me of why we have so many problems with our country these days. We need new social programs, safety nets, new laws when only the existing need enforced to solve every incident that ever happens. Except that people choose to stay poor, ignore education or do not seek it (we are in an information age), choose never to safe, choose to take unnecessary risk.. but when the risk isn't migrated and it comes due.. we look for the government to bail out and cry foul that it could have ever been possible. And for optics politicians swoop in as champions of the people and create laws to solve said problem never mind the fact that it can have devastating consequences if it were to be enacted. (Social security, nonaffordable healthcare act, etc).
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Omg...you really just went there. :rolleyes:

A hard-working, successful, educated white man watching Fox News just made this political.

I would listen, but I am on my way to go get a housing voucher for an elderly client with no family that lost her home she had lived in for 45 years due to being misled with a reverse mortgage and having to spend all the money she worked her whole life for on her dead husbands cancer treatments and funeral. I will be bringing her some food too, since her $250/month food stipend ran out, and there is still 2 weeks left in the month.

:topic:

Btw, asking for a item-lending interface, or equal treatment from MA, is hardly looking for a handout. It's looking for an answer. There's a difference, my love. :girl:
 
First, I don't have TV and for many reasons.

Two, I did say some people would miss the anology.. and I guess that includes you. Thanks for not critically thinking I guess.

As for the lending interface, I stated that needs to be in a separate thread because much of this thread has been about double standard etc. It does however fall in the disaster consequences. In the anology, the bailout in the equation is not the lending interface.

Come on taco. Put that thinking hat on. (And make a lending interface thread and talk about it there for the 4th time).

And don't give me the elderly bullcrap.. we know you are picking up some coke. ;)
 
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atomicstorm said:
First, I don't have TV and for many reasons.

Two, I did say some people would miss the anology.. and I guess that includes you. Thanks for not critically thinking I guess.

As for the lending interface, I stated that needs to be in a separate thread because much of this thread has been about double standard etc. It does however fall in the disaster consequences. In the anology, the bailout in the equation is not the lending interface.

Come on taco. Put that thinking hat on. (And make a lending interface thread and talk about it there for the 4th time).

And don't give me the elderly bullcrap.. we know you are picking up some coke. ;)
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That's true, I know you don't watch tv, so the Fox News thing was a lie.

I probably did miss the analogy, but I was in a hurry because my drug de...um, I mean the little old lady needing assistance was on a tight schedule...:pimp:
 
I remember a while ago a weapon was borrowed through several avatars to win prizes for an event, isn't that a reason enough for MA to not implement it?
 
Sunsout Gunsout said:
That's true, I know you don't watch tv, so the Fox News thing was a lie.

I probably did miss the analogy, but I was in a hurry because my drug de...um, I mean the little old lady needing assistance was on a tight schedule...:pimp:
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Lol at least your honest! :laugh:
 

No really. I'm not. I can deal with this shit.
 
Let us say that an avatar (A) is scammed by another avatar (B) of a valuable gun, and we say that the value of the gun is 90k peds ( A fraud has been worth 90k peds its about 9k Dollars, In other words, a criminal offense at 9k Dollar ).

Later, Avatar (B):s Avatar account gets locked of MA and he stops to play. Avatar (B) notifies the police.
Will one distinguish between what the law says and what the policy says.


What will happend.!!!!
 
I can tell you what happened because I did do this 13 years ago in my very naive days.

I used to buy and sell SOJs in Diablo 2. Well, I bought some very cheap and sold them to a guy for three times the value. In 48 hours, the transaction was reversed in paypal (because that's what people do). This not only is theft but also fraud. Naturally as it was credit card fraud, I went to my local police station and explained the situation.. because as a merchant, that's what I thought was the best action.. somehow I didn't think to call paypal but I digress.

When i explained the situation and he asked what was bought and sold, he promptly told me to get the fuck out (in those words). Being stunned (and almost in tears), I asked why he felt to take this tone with me. He said get out or I will arrest you. Needless to say, I was far more careful in my virtual item ventures and interactions with police. Selling virtual items was very foreign concept in the world at this time too. Pre-9/11.

Never got the cash or items as it was against the eula and I was out $300.. which was a lot for me at the time.

So there is your answer valetine.
 
atomicstorm said:
I can tell you what happened because I did do this 13 years ago in my very naive days.

I used to buy and sell SOJs in Diablo 2. Well, I bought some very cheap and sold them to a guy for three times the value. In 48 hours, the transaction was reversed in paypal (because that's what people do). This not only is theft but also fraud. Naturally as it was credit card fraud, I went to my local police station and explained the situation.. because as a merchant, that's what I thought was the best action.. somehow I didn't think to call paypal but I digress.

When i explained the situation and he asked what was bought and sold, he promptly told me to get the fuck out (in those words). Being stunned (and almost in tears), I asked why he felt to take this tone with me. He said get out or I will arrest you. Needless to say, I was far more careful in my virtual item ventures and interactions with police. Selling virtual items was very foreign concept in the world at this time too. Pre-9/11.

Never got the cash or items as it was against the eula and I was out $300.. which was a lot for me at the time.

So there is your answer valetine.
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Arrest you on what charge? Somehow I don't think I would have stood for that if I had been in your situation. Not in the US anyways.
 
The way he said was wasting his time and arresting for trespassing as I was asked to leave.

In different circumstances, I would have definitely not stood for it but in the end, I had no more to talk to him about.
 
I'd skip the cops at first honestly. Their job is to arrest criminals and protect people - they wear bullet-proof vests and carry guns for a reason.

What I personally would do is contact an attorney. (Ideally, ask one that I know as friends for the most basic advice)
I'd ask them for an estimate on the overall expected fees to pursue the case. If it's worth the effort I'd pay them to send an easy form letter to MA (or in your case ebay) requesting the user details of the account in question. At that point, if they lived somewhere else I'd figure out if it's worth pursuing further. if the person lived in the same country as me I'd have the attorney file civil suit. Or, after asking a lawyer, once you have the real life name and address of the criminal getting in contact with the correct prosecutor (Either local or international - possibly through your own lawyer) should have better results than talking to the local cop. (it should be an easy win for a prosecuting attorney, and be a change from the normal charges they're going after.)

I have no estimate on how much this would cost. I'm guessing the thief won't be hiring their own attorney so yours won't have to do 'that' much work. If nothing else I'd have fun with the process.... but I may be a little odd :laugh:
 
Colbey Kal said:
I'd skip the cops at first honestly. Their job is to arrest criminals and protect people - they wear bullet-proof vests and carry guns for a reason.
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Never Heard of "White collar crimes"? ;) The type of crime that iname scammers typically do, is "fraud". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-collar_crime

Colbey Kal said:
What I personally would do is contact an attorney. (Ideally, ask one that I know as friends for the most basic advice) (...) I have no estimate on how much this would cost. I'm guessing the thief won't be hiring their own attorney so yours won't have to do 'that' much work. If nothing else I'd have fun with the process.... but I may be a little odd :laugh:
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In Sweden, civil lawsuits can be expensive.

Hiring a lawyer COSTs say around ~2500 PED/hour (well in local currency then). And for a civil lawsuit or a "private" prosecution, the losing side pays all COSTs. Losing a civil lawsuit can easily cost 100 000 "PEDs" (and up) unless it's a trivial case.
 
aia said:
In Sweden, civil lawsuits can be expensive.

Hiring a lawyer COSTs say around ~2500 PED/hour (well in local currency then). And for a civil lawsuit or a "private" prosecution, the losing side pays all COSTs. Losing a civil lawsuit can easily cost 100 000 "PEDs" (and up) unless it's a trivial case.
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Different lawyers charge different rates . . someone has to graduate last in every law-school class. There's also a glut of attorneys in the USA.:wise:

Civil cases can get very, very, very expensive. They can also be cheap. I know an auto-repair shop owner / mechanic that goes to small claims court a few times each year representing himself. This isn't a situation where either the legal issues or the facts are really in question.
 
Colbey Kal said:
Civil cases can get very, very, very expensive. They can also be cheap. I know an auto-repair shop owner / mechanic that goes to small claims court a few times each year representing himself. This isn't a situation where either the legal issues or the facts are really in question.
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Again, here in Sweden the loser pays both sides, which means that it can be expensive if the "other" side have layers who had spent lots of time. Though, as private person there is some protection in the "home Insurance".

Usually, if there is a complaint against a car repair shop for instance, instead of taking it to Court you first try to talk to something like the community's consumer counsellor, or the "public reclammation board". Decisions made by "public reclammation board" isn't legally binding, but most serious businesses follow their decision (and if they don't, they get listed on their "black list"). ( http://www.radron.se/svarta-listan/ ).

Ah, right, there seems to be a special easier Court ruling system for cases regarding sums less than a certain amount.
 
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You guys are just nuts. You're mad that you got some of your items back, you're mad that the scammers got banned and you want to make sure nobody else can get anything back from a scammer. Just a couple weeks ago you were talking about how great it was that MA was finally trying to help people that got scammed. Now the very same people singing their praises are stamping their feet and wanting to burn the whole thing down because they didn't get everything they wanted immediately.
 
Karmic said:
You guys are just nuts. You're mad that you got some of your items back, you're mad that the scammers got banned and you want to make sure nobody else can get anything back from a scammer. Just a couple weeks ago you were talking about how great it was that MA was finally trying to help people that got scammed. Now the very same people singing their praises are stamping their feet and wanting to burn the whole thing down because they didn't get everything they wanted immediately.
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I am going to ask you this one time....

WHAT THE FUCK THREAD WERE YOU READING?

Let me explain something to you about "generalizations": They are for idiots.

"A couple weeks ago" most were happy with what MA was trying to do...some were wary of it, and some didn't like it.

Nothing has changed among our own opinions. What changed was MA's stance on the issue.

Nowhere did "the very same people" flip sides, or change their stance.

You are calling people "nuts", yet your version of what has happened is such a nonsensical, twisted, unsubstantiated fantasy of what was said or not said, and by whom, that you are probably the only one in here that is certifiably "nuts".

Find one person who has completely and clearly shifted their opinion on this matter in the thread a few weeks ago, and this one, before this post, and I will donate $100 to the licensed charity of your choice (a charity that helps people who are "nuts" even). Ones edited after this post don't count.

I will prove you wrong in any example you try to feebly piece together, and if I were you I wouldn't even bother trying, because then you might actually have to read the fucking threads and god forbid, realize that different people post, some on one side of an issue, and some on the other side, usually..

I am sorry, but I see these, "OMG you all said one thing, now you're all saying another" posts, constantly. It is the most ignorant generalization. There are different people in this forum, and we have opinions, usually on both sides...to read one guys opinion, and then a week later, read a different mans opposite opinion does NOT mean we, us, "you ALL" keep changing our minds. Jesus. Learn to identify the fact that different people are posting.
 
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Tacosmash :yay:
 
Sunsout Gunsout said:
I am going to ask you this one time....

WHAT THE FUCK THREAD WERE YOU READING?

Let me explain something to you about "generalizations": They are for idiots.

"A couple weeks ago" most were happy with what MA was trying to do...some were wary of it, and some didn't like it.

Nothing has changed among our own opinions. What changed was MA's stance on the issue.

Nowhere did "the very same people" flip sides, or change their stance.

You are calling people "nuts", yet your version of what has happened is such a nonsensical, twisted, unsubstantiated fantasy of what was said or not said, and by whom, that you are probably the only one in here that is certifiably "nuts".

Find one person who has completely and clearly shifted their opinion on this matter in the thread a few weeks ago, and this one, before this post, and I will donate $100 to the licensed charity of your choice (a charity that helps people who are "nuts" even). Ones edited after this post don't count.

I will prove you wrong in any example you try to feebly piece together, and if I we're you I wouldn't even bother trying, because then you might actually have to read the fucking threads and god forbid, realize that different people post, some on one side of an issue, and some on the other side, usually..

I am sorry, but I see these, "OMG you all said one thing, now you're all saying another" posts, constantly. It is the most ignorant generalization. There are different people in this forum, and we have opinions, usually on both sides...to read one guys opinion, and then a week later, read a different mans opposite opinion does NOT mean we, us, "you ALL" keep changing our minds. Jesus. Learn to identify the fact that different people are posting.
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Epic!:laugh::laugh::lolup::lolup::lolup::lolup::cool::cool::cool::yay::yay::wise:
 
Shame people forget one accident which MA is fully to blame unless matters got settled after.

Dethifier got his egg stolen, for this he was supposed to get ownership over the Feffox DNA.

But last time I checked MA had his LA bugged and no feffox would spawn. And it didn't seem MA cared. So they put non taxed spawns on Eudoria instead ^^. Did not follow up on the case on what happend if he got a portion back or what happend.

But yea. There u go ^^
 
Hey Taco, everything isn't about you. At no point did I refer to you, in fact, it looks like we might even agree that MA should be trying to return scammed items whenever possible. I apologize for the generalization and you are correct, I mistakenly thought Dalas was the one involved in the previous incident rather than Divinity. Let me be more clear for the ego maniacs.

Dalas, I think you are wrong.
 
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Karmic said:
Hey Taco, everything isn't about you. At no point did I refer to you, in fact, it looks like we might even agree that MA should be trying to return scammed items whenever possible. I apologize for the generalization and you are correct, I mistakenly thought Dalas was the one involved in the previous incident rather than Divinity. Let me be more clear for the ego maniacs.

Dalas, I think you are wrong.
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I know it wasn't directed at me :)

And now my statement is no longer directed at you because you clarified yours :)

Now it is directed at everyone else who makes generalizations... I am coming...

(That's an "o" in there, atomic/5$, not a "u"...I know what you're gonna say before I even hit submit :p )
 
I believe MA should attempt to return items when possible even if they are unable to return items in all instances. Yes, that does open them up to some liability and yes, some people will call favoritism but they should try and do right when they can.

In your specific case, I don't know if they can return the fap yet, I don't know if the player was permanently locked or locked pending an investigation. None of us, including, I believe, you know all the details yet. If money was exchanged for items or ped outside of game then that makes it a whole lot harder and may be a situation that can't be reversed. I think you should be at least a little happy that your relatively valueless item was returned and hope that the more valuable one can be returned rather than pushing for no items to be returned to anyone.

Personally you share some of the blame for this mess, and potentially for MA reversing their decision to start trying to unravel these scams. I don't believe you are a scammer and I believe you acted in good faith, however, someone could easily be a part of a scam when they lend someone else's items out and exchange ped and/or items for cash outside of game. This incident is clearly more complicated than one where items were taken and TT'd and you should recognize that.

Qamori's statement that MA shouldn't even lock scammers then is just being absurd imo.
 
qamori said:
Just for the record about my fap.

My fap wasn't stoled or scammed.
Ma locked the account of the guy that has mine!

I dont have any problem with Dalas, and was told by Dalas that he will fully refund me if I dont get it back. But i was avoiding that because i dont want peds, i prefer my fap.
I have been asking MA to please return my fap, since the reason I dont have it is because MA locked the avatar
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Just wounder whay MA dont look in the log files,sure they can see that this fap belong to you its a bit of work but MA should do that.
 
Karmic said:
I believe MA should attempt to return items when possible even if they are unable to return items in all instances. Yes, that does open them up to some liability and yes, some people will call favoritism but they should try and do right when they can.

In your specific case, I don't know if they can return the fap yet, I don't know if the player was permanently locked or locked pending an investigation. None of us, including, I believe, you know all the details yet. If money was exchanged for items or ped outside of game then that makes it a whole lot harder and may be a situation that can't be reversed. I think you should be at least a little happy that your relatively valueless item was returned and hope that the more valuable one can be returned rather than pushing for no items to be returned to anyone.

Personally you share some of the blame for this mess, and potentially for MA reversing their decision to start trying to unravel these scams. I don't believe you are a scammer and I believe you acted in good faith, however, someone could easily be a part of a scam when they lend someone else's items out and exchange ped and/or items for cash outside of game. This incident is clearly more complicated than one where items were taken and TT'd and you should recognize that.

Qamori's statement that MA shouldn't even lock scammers then is just being absurd imo.
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Actually, I think you're talking sense here.

Of course I hope the Adj Hedoc can be returned eventually, so I don't think I'm pushing for NO returning or unravelling really. I think it's a nice thing they did and of course I feel extremely lucky and privileged to be one of the few they decided to try it on. I'm grateful for what I get, don't get me wrong.

What I object to is MA not being "consequent" in the way that they have a case involving two FAPs and while they quickly and easily return one, they seem to have difficulty in doing the same with the other. This seems more to do with their whim than any calculated decision about how difficult it would be to trace or how much work it would be. I mean it took them no time to lock the account of Mr Adj Hedoc before I could get it back.

Rather than this situation where we have one tool recovered and one locked because of the first one, I would rather they didn't bother with the first one, and at least the other one would still have a chance of returning.

Does that clear anything up or am I still stamping my feet and wanting to burn things down because I didn't get it immediately?
 
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