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Question: Mining same spot, How long to wait?

KiiNG--MATTY

KiiNG--MATTY

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KiiNG -- MATTY
I have been mining the same spot over and over planetside. It takes me about 1.5 - 2 Hours to mine the spot. How long should I leave it till I start mining it again?
 
I've been mining the same spots (exactly the same numerical coordinates) once every four hours up to three times a day for a week in a row without noticeable ill effects. In fact, the first few runs were not so good but later runs improved. (this however was for an experiment conducted ~five months ago)

Various theories put regeneration interval at either 90 or 120 minutes; there is also different opinions as to whether the whole area is regenerated at once in a while or a claim extracted in one place is instantly regenerated elsewhere on the server. Perhaps neither is possible to prove decisively but in any case three hours or more is pretty much on the safe side.
 
Thanks for your reply, I had the same effect my first run of 650 Drops in same area was 81% TT return and Im doing my second as we speak and its sitting at almost 200%. I also see other people mining like me in same area at same time and still get ok hit rate even after the same line they just done right before me. So I was wondering also if other people mining that area would effect my hit rate.
 
KiiNG--MATTY said:
Thanks for your reply, I had the same effect my first run of 650 Drops in same area was 81% TT return and Im doing my second as we speak and its sitting at almost 200%. I also see other people mining like me in same area at same time and still get ok hit rate even after the same line they just done right before me. So I was wondering also if other people mining that area would effect my hit rate.
Click to expand...

If the answer is yes, the resource spawns are predetermined at set locations.
If the answer is no, the tool is responsible for the generation of claims.

Interesting questions, would love to help out with regards to finding the answers.
 
Haruto Rat said:
I've been mining the same spots (exactly the same numerical coordinates) once every four hours up to three times a day for a week in a row without noticeable ill effects. In fact, the first few runs were not so good but later runs improved. (this however was for an experiment conducted ~five months ago)

Various theories put regeneration interval at either 90 or 120 minutes; there is also different opinions as to whether the whole area is regenerated at once in a while or a claim extracted in one place is instantly regenerated elsewhere on the server. Perhaps neither is possible to prove decisively but in any case three hours or more is pretty much on the safe side.
Click to expand...

Very interesting, how large are the "places" mentioned ?

You also mentioned theories, are there any links to any of these theories.... ?

I am in the middle of making a lovely little model myself
 
Haruto Rat said:
I've been mining the same spots (exactly the same numerical coordinates) once every four hours up to three times a day for a week in a row without noticeable ill effects. In fact, the first few runs were not so good but later runs improved. (this however was for an experiment conducted ~five months ago)

Various theories put regeneration interval at either 90 or 120 minutes; there is also different opinions as to whether the whole area is regenerated at once in a while or a claim extracted in one place is instantly regenerated elsewhere on the server. Perhaps neither is possible to prove decisively but in any case three hours or more is pretty much on the safe side.
Click to expand...

The later runs improved due to that you where probably there at the right time.
Also no need to wait because mining ie the claims work just as mobs, kill one another one spawn in the area. The area can be quite big though.
 
Thanks guys for all the comments :) I had a little read of that vein thing :p I dont know what to think about that as I have only been mining for about a week now so I am proper noob at this but I have an idea. My Idea is to get me and another miner, We drop 100 bombs each at the exact same cords one after the other and is the first guy gets a claim he do another to make sure that there are no more claims in that range Then the second guy drops, In theory the second guy should get zero claims for these 100 drops if the claims are generated by area and not personal or by tool. please correct me if I have not thought of anything but I think by doing this It will give some good insight. What you guys think?
 
KiiNG--MATTY said:
What you guys think?
Click to expand...
Did it in the past.

The mined area is empty for about 2 hours. This is server wide.
It could've been change though, although I doubt it, so feel free to give it a spin.
 
KiiNG--MATTY said:
Thanks guys for all the comments :) I had a little read of that vein thing :p I dont know what to think about that as I have only been mining for about a week now so I am proper noob at this but I have an idea. My Idea is to get me and another miner, We drop 100 bombs each at the exact same cords one after the other and is the first guy gets a claim he do another to make sure that there are no more claims in that range Then the second guy drops, In theory the second guy should get zero claims for these 100 drops if the claims are generated by area and not personal or by tool. please correct me if I have not thought of anything but I think by doing this It will give some good insight. What you guys think?
Click to expand...

As for the "veins" look at a spawn of some mob, look at it from above ie radar.. the mobs will be standing in "veins" and the same applies to mining. If you where here from the very start you would know that veins existed and went straight into nnw(i think?) direction but those where bugged ie they should not be completely straight. Probably nobody noticed it at first due to claims not being visible as mobs are.

And you would need more than one miner for that test, as a respawn can happen quite a bit away from you. I have done test running back and forth the exact same coords over roughly 1km stretch.. i found claims every pass on the stretch just as if i would just run over it once. Yes there might be a few less from time to time and this is due to that stuff doesnt spawn on exactly the same spot but in the average area that spawn is in.
 
I haven't done extensive testing but what I do know is that claims don't spawn immediately, there is some "empty" time before the area is "full" again. In my tests the respawn time was around 90 minutes. However.....

I believe the following points are true:

1) There are a total number of claims per server at any given time. When you mine out a claim, the claim will respawn (but probably not at your location... it will be anywhere on the server/planet)

2) If you go to an area that has not been mined for extremely long times, you don't get higher than normal hit rates, which tells me that claims also "despawn" after a short time (or they've got some kind of complex rules for density management)

To keep a healthy refresh rate, I think the typical lifetime of an (unclaimed) claim is somewhere on the order of 2-4 hours. But it is likely to be affected by the amount of activity in the region/server/planet.
 
KiiNG--MATTY said:
We drop 100 bombs each at the exact same cords one after the other and is the first guy gets a claim he do another to make sure that there are no more claims in that range Then the second guy drops, In theory the second guy should get zero claims for these 100 drops if the claims are generated by area and not personal or by tool. please correct me if I have not thought of anything but I think by doing this It will give some good insight. What you guys think?
Click to expand...

We've done that test, only the first one to drop gets the claim (excepting the rare re-spawn). Claims are in the ground, not generated by the tool.
 
UPdate - Claims can respawn in the same area after about 9 minutes ....
 
R4tt3xx said:
UPdate - Claims can respawn in the same area after about 9 minutes ....
Click to expand...

Actually it's 9.2 seconds. Im close to finish my tests, since there is still ~0.05 second deviation, so I am not sure yet - is it 9.15 or 9.25. Probably it's something with servers distance and the Speed of Light.

Will update later.
 
i don't think claims spawns like mobs.

if you drop a prob, it tell that to the server and start an algorythm.. maybe then you hit one claim or not.

why they should use a spawn system for invisible claims? Just more coding work. MA is to lazzy to code more as is need.
 
trance said:
i don't think claims spawns like mobs.

if you drop a prob, it tell that to the server and start an algorythm.. maybe then you hit one claim or not.

why they should use a spawn system for invisible claims? Just more coding work. MA is to lazzy to code more as is need.
Click to expand...

Exactly the opposite of what you say is why. It's more coding to do something unique then reusing the same code as mob spawns with a few minor tweaks.
 
Legion said:
Exactly the opposite of what you say is why. It's more coding to do something unique then reusing the same code as mob spawns with a few minor tweaks.
Click to expand...


No, I'll show you why with pseudo codw:

If (Probe_dropped=true) {
Function(run_the_lottery);
}

And that's about the additional coding they need while using the mob spawn code would need a lot of tweaking. On top of that the servers would need to store all the data.
 
WhiningSkeptic said:
No, I'll show you why with pseudo codw:

If (Probe_dropped=true) {
Function(run_the_lottery);
}

And that's about the additional coding they need while using the mob spawn code would need a lot of tweaking. On top of that the servers would need to store all the data.
Click to expand...

full agree ! let that say from a lead level designer :) But funny to see how ppl think that such things work.
 
trance said:
full agree ! let that say from a lead level designer :) But funny to see how ppl think that such things work.
Click to expand...

Well, I'm not saying it is like that, but it would be the easiest way. If it was, people would have noticed that and no one would run around bombing.

However, I do not think they are pre spawned.
 
WhiningSkeptic said:
No, I'll show you why with pseudo codw:

If (Probe_dropped=true) {
Function(run_the_lottery);
}

And that's about the additional coding they need while using the mob spawn code would need a lot of tweaking. On top of that the servers would need to store all the data.
Click to expand...

And as you say then we would have a lottery ie not allowed since MA is a swedish based company it doesn't matter where the servers are either as MA would still have to follow the rules
the swedish lottery inspection has.

trance said:
full agree ! let that say from a lead level designer :) But funny to see how ppl think that such things work.
Click to expand...
Aaw.. well i'm also a game designer (with my bachelor thesis about how to make an rce mmo loot system written) And I'll take up this with our lead designer Doru tommorow and see what he thinks. And here are a few articles by Doru in case anyone might be interested.
 
Legion said:
And as you say then we would have a lottery ie not allowed since MA is a swedish based company it doesn't matter where the servers are either as MA would still have to follow the rules
the swedish lottery inspection has.


Aaw.. well i'm also a game designer (with my bachelor thesis about how to make an rce mmo loot system written) And I'll take up this with our lead designer Doru tommorow and see what he thinks. And here are a few articles by Doru in case anyone might be interested.
Click to expand...

common, you really think they spawn hidden and invisible claims :)

its more like that:

Drop prob ---> call to server player x drop a prob --- server check your position, and a lot other parameters... then a algorythm calculate if you find some thing or not .. if you find some thing it will calculate more, about how large and such... and then it spawn a claim to the position.
 
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Legion said:
And as you say then we would have a lottery ie not allowed since MA is a swedish based company it doesn't matter where the servers are either as MA would still have to follow the rules
the swedish lottery inspection has.
Click to expand...

Read again. Everytime you claim loot there is lottery going on, or perharps we should call it running the "loot size determination algoritm" which would happen anyway. You are basically saying that all mobs have pre-determined loot as well as all blueprints. It wouldn't work.

However, I am thinking there is some sort of attributes added to the various areas which work together with other values when you mine. However, I do not think they are pre-spawned. That would take big chunks of resources.

And your lottery inspection reference is nonsense. The reason MA slips away is because they do not give out any money per se.
 
I have a feeling claims are already in the ground. My reason behind this is based on what happened with the underground, or maybe it was rocktropia.

Anyway, all the claims were bunched up, so people were going unamped untill they hit a claim. Then whacked on a big amp for the others. High hit rate = high tt return.

This is by no means proof claims are already in the ground. Just my two pecs

I don't believe anything else is known yet though. I think claim size and type is calculated after it has found the claim.

Right or wrong, Just my two pecs, which is probably completely wrong!

Rgds

Ace

EDIT: also with new planets, initially only oil and lyst, until it seems like it is cleared by people then other stuff appears. Again no proof of this
 
Ace Flyster said:
I have a feeling claims are already in the ground. My reason behind this is based on what happened with the underground, or maybe it was rocktropia.

Anyway, all the claims were bunched up, so people were going unamped untill they hit a claim. Then whacked on a big amp for the others. High hit rate = high tt return.

This is by no means proof claims are already in the ground. Just my two pecs

I don't believe anything else is known yet though. I think claim size and type is calculated after it has found the claim.

Right or wrong, Just my two pecs, which is probably completely wrong!

Rgds

Ace

EDIT: also with new planets, initially only oil and lyst, until it seems like it is cleared by people then other stuff appears. Again no proof of this
Click to expand...

Kim have stated loot is calculated when looted (this was in hunting though) but I guess this also is towards mining. Nothing is down there really.

Try for example 3 avas with same equipment dropping on the same spots after eachother. Go check if 2 first will miss and third will hit. Or first will miss, second will hit and 3rd will miss.

Cause if first get NRF. So should the second or third ava. But results is kinda funny ^^
 
trance said:
common, you really think they spawn hidden and invisible claims :)

its more like that:

Drop prob ---> call to server player x drop a prob --- server check your position, and a lot other parameters... then a algorythm calculate if you find some thing or not .. if you find some thing it will calculate more, about how large and such... and then it spawn a claim to the position.
Click to expand...

Yep, just like mobs but invisible. And nope not lottery, what defines a lottery in swedish term is if you win or does not win in this case if you find something or not. The only way to make it not a lottery is making it skillbased and just adding skills like geology to the system does not mean it's skillbased. It's how to find an actuall deposit at a certain spot which is the skill. Also the size of the win is also not the factor that determine if it's a lottery or not.

WhiningSkeptic said:
Read again. Everytime you claim loot there is lottery going on, or perharps we should call it running the "loot size determination algoritm" which would happen anyway. You are basically saying that all mobs have pre-determined loot as well as all blueprints. It wouldn't work.

However, I am thinking there is some sort of attributes added to the various areas which work together with other values when you mine. However, I do not think they are pre-spawned. That would take big chunks of resources.

And your lottery inspection reference is nonsense. The reason MA slips away is because they do not give out any money per se.
Click to expand...

See answer above. And again (as i have done my research for my bachelor thesis) IF a monetary value can be attributed to the win/loot then it's a lottery (unless it's skillbased as mentioned above)

Guarana said:
Kim have stated loot is calculated when looted (this was in hunting though) but I guess this also is towards mining. Nothing is down there really.

Try for example 3 avas with same equipment dropping on the same spots after eachother. Go check if 2 first will miss and third will hit. Or first will miss, second will hit and 3rd will miss.

Cause if first get NRF. So should the second or third ava. But results is kinda funny ^^
Click to expand...

Yes if the first one get an NRF so should all the rest, unless someone else is in the same area and found a deposit, then one could spawn right under their feet and the second or third could get a hit.
 
Legion said:
Yep, just like mobs but invisible. And nope not lottery, what defines a lottery in swedish term is if you win or does not win in this case if you find something or not. The only way to make it not a lottery is making it skillbased and just adding skills like geology to the system does not mean it's skillbased. It's how to find an actuall deposit at a certain spot which is the skill. Also the size of the win is also not the factor that determine if it's a lottery or not.



See answer above. And again (as i have done my research for my bachelor thesis) IF a monetary value can be attributed to the win/loot then it's a lottery (unless it's skillbased as mentioned above)



Yes if the first one get an NRF so should all the rest, unless someone else is in the same area and found a deposit, then one could spawn right under their feet and the second or third could get a hit.
Click to expand...

First of all, stop making reference to your bachelor thesis because it really doesn't prove anything except that you are mostly fond of convincing people you are correct rather than being so.

Second, your idea that claims must be spawned because of the gambling restrictions means that all types of loot must be pre-spawned. That would include all blueprints and mobs as well. I do believe that MA might have taken the laws into consideration, but not in the way you suppose.

E.g: Two players with various skill levels drop bombs. The more experience and knowledgable player will find more loot due to better gear, higher skills and a feel for the mining system. That should be enough to consider it skill-based.

On top of that, you actually do not loot anything. MA loots a lot of stuff and they let you play with their avatar. Whatever you find belongs to MA. Also, your idea should apply to all games because pretty much every large MMO gives players items that others are willing to pay real money for, therefore assigning them value.

Edit: To clarify, I am not saying you are wrong about the claims spawning like mobs. What I am saying is that your arguments for it are weak and that I myself do not believe in it.
 
WhiningSkeptic said:
First of all, stop making reference to your bachelor thesis because it really doesn't prove anything except that you are mostly fond of convincing people you are correct rather than being so.

Second, your idea that claims must be spawned because of the gambling restrictions means that all types of loot must be pre-spawned. That would include all blueprints and mobs as well. I do believe that MA might have taken the laws into consideration, but not in the way you suppose.

E.g: Two players with various skill levels drop bombs. The more experience and knowledgable player will find more loot due to better gear, higher skills and a feel for the mining system. That should be enough to consider it skill-based.

On top of that, you actually do not loot anything. MA loots a lot of stuff and they let you play with their avatar. Whatever you find belongs to MA. Also, your idea should apply to all games because pretty much every large MMO gives players items that others are willing to pay real money for, therefore assigning them value.

Edit: To clarify, I am not saying you are wrong about the claims spawning like mobs. What I am saying is that your arguments for it are weak and that I myself do not believe in it.
Click to expand...

True that my thesis doesn't prove anything, except i have put a lot of effort into researching how a system like this could be designed.

Yes all "loot" is pre-spawned, ie the location of the loot. Not what's in it, that is calculated upon actually finding it. And yes a more experienced player will find more because he know's where to drop a probe for example to find the loot.

Yes they let you play with their avatar and loot stuff, which can be turned into money. Similar to how a casino would lend you the deck of cards you play with and can turn that into money. But it's YOU who has the skills which makes it not a lottery. As for other MMO's nope. Since most other mmo's does not have an economy that is actually tied to a monetary value it doesn't apply to them even if a player can sell an item he loots.

But it's clear you wont be convinced so i'll stop trying to explain more now, lets agree to disagree.
 
Legion said:
True that my thesis doesn't prove anything, except i have put a lot of effort into researching how a system like this could be designed.

Yes all "loot" is pre-spawned, ie the location of the loot. Not what's in it, that is calculated upon actually finding it. And yes a more experienced player will find more because he know's where to drop a probe for example to find the loot.

Yes they let you play with their avatar and loot stuff, which can be turned into money. Similar to how a casino would lend you the deck of cards you play with and can turn that into money. But it's YOU who has the skills which makes it not a lottery. As for other MMO's nope. Since most other mmo's does not have an economy that is actually tied to a monetary value it doesn't apply to them even if a player can sell an item he loots.

But it's clear you wont be convinced so i'll stop trying to explain more now, lets agree to disagree.
Click to expand...

Would be nice to get the answere from MA, about the claims are prespawned or not.
I remember Marco said, that loot is generated when you hit the loot button.

The different there, it is need to see the creatures, and also to set a ton of spawn markers to the level as level designer. but im pretty sure the mining system work in an other matter. Not the lootsytem, the system how mining is done in the game, technicaly. It really don't need to be prespawned, or it need to set markers or anything.

All happens in the moment when you drop the prob and it say that to the server. But you easy can travel from new york to florida via europa. This would be the same to use prespawned invisible claims.

I work at a MMO, but we never would use a such system, to spawn invisible things, and set spawnmarkers and such in the level, when you just can make all that with code!

But ok, a lot ways going to Rom. But what is the easiest and cheapest way?
 
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I am going to be brutally honest here and say the following. Personally I think that the system is what the players make it out to be.

For the most part it's "random"

In the open beta of Project Entropia, I was informed of a very interesting glitch with regards to mining in that claims rendered on the over world map at the incorrect location.

Obviously this got me thinking and showed me proof of what I am going to suggest. What I found is that each km of terrain had the same claim locations as the "cell" next to it. If a scout found a deposit at x 250 y 375 for example, that claim would exist in all other cells.

It made sense, why seed all the areas when you could just seed one and replicate that to others. I have no idea if that is the way that it is now as personally I think Project was a test bed for Entropia Universe so the developers did not mind it going bankrupt.

About my statement above. I personally think that the "patterns" we see are generated by the play style of each player in the game.

Look at veins for example, most miners prospect in straight lines, if you spend ped in straight lines, others can reclaim that ped in straight lines, simple...

Till veins were removed...

Here is the next point. "Crack" a portion of the game and the devs will find a way to change it, always have, always will. They have to make it fair for everyone that plays, regardless of the players perceived intelligence.

I can post arrays and diagrams of systems that I have tested and none have worked, but none of these models can take into account the "random" movements of other players.

So ye, the game is what we make of it.
 
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