VU 15 - "improvement" to decrease the MU even more aka eat some shrapnel, suckers

I am of the same opinion that it will take some time before the market adjusts and we will see the true effect of these changes. The purpose of having a high portion of TT food like ammo or shrapnel is to increase the markup of the stackables so were no longer stuck at like 102%, the portion of TT food will likely be tweaked a lot depending on the effect we see.

Also, since the hard-cap on stackables is in place on all planets we will see a strong effect on other planets as well, no more 20 000 PED stacks of a single oil on uber loots.

I'm struggling to follow your logic..
Reduce decay on L guns so they last longer.. result, MU went down on them, including avg mu for hunters
result.. less drops of L guns & more oils. Resulting in a lower oil mu.. hunters fucked again.
Now, you replace some stuff with 101% crap (positive thing, no auction fee, instant sale
BUT you've messed with the type of oil maturities drop also
I did a hunt last night in d4.. all 101% crap (LUCKY ME) couse the rest was adr oil just like in dome 1
Where's the logic?
Why would any sane person hunt lvl 55-70 mobs witch requires a bigger ped cushion to loot the exact same stuff as in d1?
Also.. the 20k ped stack drops you talk about weren't that bad.. it just ment you had to wait & see when to sell your oils
Now you will get more instand cashouts imo & not like withdrawals are working that great.

& lastly.. why do you expect us to ride this out again for months till loot stabilizes so you can adjust it again?
Doin't you think avg hunting mu was bad enough for since you started the improved loot crap?
You can be very sure I'll be sitting out the time till everything balances out.. couise my pedcard doesn't like your changes
 
  1. Yes I recall the "several years ago", though I seem to also recall that there were more items with actual markup
  2. Other planets still have the old loot, time to change = unknown. Really fair, thank you...
    Guess planet calypso land owners and hunters are experiment rats see if they die off then react?
  3. Only "benefit" I see is that basically most of the MU from already low MU mobs has been reduced even more
  4. Seems that all the maturities are now same stackable loot, what is the point of the higher maturities now?
Osseocollum example below, of course I am really pissed because owning the 2 LAs with them, and hunting them daily.
It would have been fine to replace the items that had a MU of 101% to 103%, but you replaced much more than that it seems.
Will update the information as I gather more data.
Items haven't seen since release in red, new items blue and kept items in green.
  • Explosive Projectiles - 101%

Been looting this regularly and selling. Now at 103%



  • Animal Adrenal Oil - 101%

Been looting this regularly Selling it at 103%.

I dont hunt Osseo, so that's your problem. Although it may be annoying that currently your LA is not producing something, it is producing other things. You'll just need to decide if thats providing you the profit you need and either keep it or change it based on various factors that contribute to draw.

I however am discouraged to know that other planets distributions have not changed. If this is implemented it needs to be system wide. Otherwise folks just move their random hunting to planets that support it.
 
You're all talking about consequences of burning offices and the end of the МА company. But you have not offered anything to improve the situation with unused items. And when the developers are trying to improve the situation with their demand - you are not satisfied with it, too. This is wrong.

Well the problem with items is being adressed via upgrade paths, i think we will see more of them in the future. Another thing can be to add more powerful items in the future ( Already done see ModHedoc for example ). And i never said i am not satisfied with the approach the developers took. Personally i think it is a step in the right direction.

At the moment it is a painful transition phase that needs to be tweaked in order to be a balanced system, but at least now where not every mob drops almost everything the balancing can happen more easily.

But only tweaking the supply should not be the only step. It should also remove complety useless stuff ( Ancient Hangar parts anyone ? ). When this is done demand needs to raise on items which retains low MU after the change. This can simply be done by introducing useful blueprints people can use to craft USEFUL ( can't highlight that enough ) items and consumables. And this not by reintroducing new ingedients used in the blueprints, but by reusing the existing ones.

The point is, that the crafted items are desireable, so actually someone is willing to pay Markup for the item. Wit all these points i think the economy will be a good chunk better. That does not solve the "problem" of many UL items ingame.

Here i think it is not that bad to have a availability of the items, so it is not impossible to get one eventually, but it should not be taken for granted, but something worth to strife for someday. With weapons at the moment we might have an oversupply and this should be adressed by creating opportunities. Opportiunities to profit from RCE and from hunting, so the item can again become a profitmaker which in return derives value and when people write successstories they will attract new folks who are eager to step in their footprints.

Then the existing flood of items can be balanced again for the new and hopefully bigger playerbase.
 
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Well the problem with items is being adressed via upgrade paths, i think we will see more of them in the future. Another thing can be to add more powerful items in the future ( Already done see ModHedoc for example ). And i never said i am not satisfied with the approach the developers took. Personally i think it is a step in the right direction.

At the moment it is a painful transition phase that needs to be tweaked in order to be a balanced system, but at least now where not every mob drops almost everything the balancing can happen more easily.

I see your point and agree with you 100%.

However the playerbase and user base that generally populates this forum is mostly composed of whiners who cannot adapt to change because what they have done is gear their playstyles toward profit margin.

Any sort of change impacts that profit margin and forces them to research again. Time taken out of grinding to research is profit lost.

The folks here feel entitled to their profits, and when those profits are interrupted they complain like spoiled children.

Fact.
 

One of the possibilities to improve the situation - a complete cessation of drop UL items to achieve a more stable balance (start it again when a playerbase grows enough). In this case, the consumption of L items (and stackables) may increase. But ... players will not like this idea.

Actually it turns out that even the quests to improve items will harm the economy.
Explanation - when you bought/looted an UL item, you dont need any other similar crafted or looted items. Now around is too many UL items, they are killing the market of L, for hunters and crafters. The winners in this case, only the miners - their resources are always in demand, atleast from gamblers.
I know what I say.
 
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As said, osseo is an example which I used because I can be confident in and can describe the change well, the loot was changed in a similar fashion for all mobs. Thus the problem is for all the hunters, all la owners and everyone using the hunting stackables (so the entire ecosystem).
I dont hunt Osseo, so that's your problem.
 
One of the possibilities to improve the situation - a complete cessation of drop UL items to achieve a more stable balance (start it again when a playerbase grows enough). In this case, the consumption of L items (and stackables) may increase. But ... players will not like this idea.

Actually it turns out that even the quests to improve items will harm the economy.

In fact it is hard in the current grown ingame economy to draw the "master-plan" i guess this is the reason why Mindark struggles for years now to improve it. But one thing is clear, items are considered valuable and investment, when they yield the opportunity to generate profit. This is imho the reason why ModFaps are still > 150k in value, the reason why UL mining amps are go for high prices and most hunting gear took a good hit.

Yes of course availability is higher and prices for common items like p5a won't ever be again in the 40k region, but imho they should not have been there in the first place. Still people were paying the price, because they were able to generate profit in the game economy back then. Pair it with sparsity and a grain of speculation and you had the price level the items got.

Now all three factors are gone. UL items are not rare anymore ( which is good up to a certain point, because people know they can reach the goal to get one some day ). Speculation for these items is not that important anymore, because the trend is downwards AND the possibility to generate profit in hunting is mostly gone. People are not willing to pay more than 1000 USD to have the opportunity to pour their money away even faster. That is what upgrade mostly means as a hunter nowadays, to have gear which allows to cycle faster and to lose faster.

When opportunities are created, so people are able to make profit, then an item keeps value for the "moneymaker-factor". The current change should create opportunities. However as it is now it is obvious, that there is quite some finetuning neccessery, but i am confident this will take place, because a company wants people to use their product as it pays their bills usually,
 
Jensson,
Nevertheless, the change happened lopsided, to improve mining activity and decrease hunting activity. I seen increasing sales of mining tools this week in my shops. No, it's not bad for me, but now I have not enough incentive to continue the hunt.
 
Well while i'm at it, a direct Qustion towards Kim:
Are there plans to not only lower supply of the stackables, but also to raise demand ?

Thanks in advance
 
I hear your concerns - as a mob is something you have a large investment in. I hope ( and think) that interest in this mob will not change that much at all -it is still very elite and spawn is mostly rare. I however, don't understand some of what you are saying:

Light Metal Plating - 2500%
Paint Can (Black) - 400%
Basic Leather Extractor - 135%
Thin Wool - 103%
shrapnel - 101%
Explosive Projectiles - 101%
Animal Thyroid Oil - 101%
Liver Oil - 101%
Muscle Oil - 101%
Wool - 101%
Adrenal Oil - 101%
Animal Hide - 100.5%

So all that 101 and under crap is gone...? Sounds fine to me. Only thing is when/if we start to see those MUs rise because of overall shortage of supply. And then the top 3 on the list you say no longer drop. The plating is big deal, but IMO black paint and extractors aren't. Sure the MU is high but the TT is low.
What I can see is that it's a BIG change. I hope it works out well for everyone - you included. I am just confused about it - and don't have enough experience yet.
 
I am of the same opinion that it will take some time before the market adjusts and we will see the true effect of these changes. The purpose of having a high portion of TT food like ammo or shrapnel is to increase the markup of the stackables so were no longer stuck at like 102%, the portion of TT food will likely be tweaked a lot depending on the effect we see.

That's good in theory, but in practice there are two major problems with this thinking.

Firstly, at the moment it looks to me like a hunter will have to be almost completely reliant on animal oils for the bulk of the markup (excluding rare unlimited item drops etc). The other stackable items drop in too low quantities for any sensible amount of markup to be gained from them, unless they start to sell for several hundred or even thousand %, which is unlikely to happen on anything that's used in large volumes and is therefore easy to sell.

Secondly, as long as other planets continue to have a wider range of stackable items in loot, as they did before, the intended effects will be distorted, perhaps obliterated, by universal supply. It was my understanding that other planets loot will undergo a similar change in future, but your earlier comment seems to indicate that this won't be enforced:

4) There are now hard caps in place on all the "shared" stackables such as oils so in a way they are already affected. I expect they will adjust their loot lists accordingly in order to avoid spamming hunters with 30 small item stacks per mob.

If other planets have the option to retain their old loot tables (other than the addition of shrapnel and more ammo), they would be foolish not to take that option. I'd appreciate it if you could clarify the position here.
 
Well , I must say I am bit shocked with last 2 Kim's posts here.

It is indeed good change in loot model recently. Shrapnell is great idea too. Introduction MOd fap into game was mistake and removing such items from game on volountary basis must be performed and it's best for MA in current situation.

However, presumptions on which MA based their recent actions are worrying as they show they really lack some basic knowledge about functioning of market and competition. I am glad we got some good results, but i am sad at same time that they were achived rather accidentaly, without understanding of market mechanisms.

Dear MA... Increasing MU on some loot mean you made some of its componnets less common.But thats it. It will not help automaticaly help for example crafters make their life easier . They will not increase MU on produced stuff accordingly to such degree it will help them. Keynes thinking about markets was proven wrong some time ago already.

Also all economies ( including EU virtual one ) are supply driven , not demand. It is especialy visible in EU when new things/ items apear.
 
Firstly, at the moment it looks to me like a hunter will have to be almost completely reliant on animal oils for the bulk of the markup (excluding rare unlimited item drops etc).

How is this different than before the change? For the most part the items that drop now also dropped before the change, but more spread out.
 
The point is, that the crafted items are desireable, so actually someone is willing to pay Markup for the item. Wit all these points i think the economy will be a good chunk better. That does not solve the "problem" of many UL items ingame.

There is already a first step into that direction, the shroom guy.
You need to scramble 2 crafted FAPs to get on Adj FAP, then need 2 scrambled Adj FAP to get 1 Imp FAP, then need to scramble 2 Imp FAPs to get 1 Mod FAP.

That definately creates a demand on the original crafted FAPs

Bad thing is, another LOOT is introduced to do it, what imho is not needed.
It could also be done by using some rar existing resource, f.e. ruga or dunkle (from mining), or some crafted component that needs many resource from hunting or crafted component that uses rar material, or even better lets use crafted components that uses crafted components as resource (f.e. Galaxy Battery Series)
Another idea would have been that it uses a shitload of resource with no markup (101%), increase demand vs reduced supply :D
The idea with the regenerative gel, that needs to do missions is fine.
Good reason to do daily mission to be able to upgrade these FAPs.

Actually I am happy to see this first steps.
As I understand there are plans to introduce more of this upgrade things in the future, to get rid of huge number uL items.

Bring it on please
 
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Secondly, as long as other planets continue to have a wider range of stackable items in loot, as they did before, the intended effects will be distorted, perhaps obliterated, by universal supply. It was my understanding that other planets loot will undergo a similar change in future, but your earlier comment seems to indicate that this won't be enforced:

If other planets have the option to retain their old loot tables (other than the addition of shrapnel and more ammo), they would be foolish not to take that option. I'd appreciate it if you could clarify the position here.

Why would they want to retain the old system? Their players will not get a larger amount of stackable items like oils etc but more spread out across like 30 small stacks instead of 5-6.
 
There is already a first step into that direction, the shroom guy.
You need to scramble 2 crafted FAPs to get on Adj FAP, then need 2 scrambled Adj FAP to get 1 Imp FAP, then need to scramble 2 Imp FAPs to get 1 Mod FAP.

That definately creates a demand on the original crafted FAPs

Bad thing is, another LOOT is introduced to do it, what imho is not needed.
It could also be done by using some rar existing resource, f.e. ruga or dunkle (from mining), or some crafted component that needs many resource from hunting or crafted component that uses rar material, or even better lets use crafted components that uses crafted components as resource (f.e. Galaxy Battery Series)
Another idea would have been that it uses a shitload of resource with no markup (101%), increase demand vs reduced supply :D
The idea with the regenerative gel, that needs to do missions is fine.
Good reason to do daily mission to be able to upgrade these FAPs.

Actually I am happy to see this first steps.
As I understand there are plans to introduce more of this upgrade things in the future, to get rid of huge number uL items.

Bring it on please

Yeah that is why i wrote my initial statement :
Well the problem with items is being adressed via upgrade paths, i think we will see more of them in the future. Another thing can be to add more powerful items in the future ( Already done see ModHedoc for example ).

And also led to the question i directed towards Kim, as i also see the Shrooms could have been already existant loot and raise demand on those.
 
There is already a first step into that direction, the shroom guy.
You need to scramble 2 crafted FAPs to get on Adj FAP, then need 2 scrambled Adj FAP to get 1 Imp FAP, then need to scramble 2 Imp FAPs to get 1 Mod FAP.
Bring it on please

Its wrong. No huge demand will be created (only speculative in first 2 days), because here is not only FAP's in quest. I think by MA will be approved to upgrade with large mushrooms only maybe 100 faps to Adj, 30-50 to imp and several faps to Mod, because if mushrooms will drop very often, its fully kill all FAP's market. As I wrote above - its unacceptable. Best way IMO - to remove cheat items, not to add.

However, I agree that hunters during of these quests will require supply with L FAP's.
 
How is this different than before the change? For the most part the items that drop now also dropped before the change, but more spread out.

To choose a random example, last time I hunted Aurli in Dome 1 before the VU, 54.92% of my loot was materials other than ammo (including explosives) or animal oils. There were no large TT items (L guns etc) in that loot, and several of the items were a good source of markup.

After the VU, on a comparable hunt on the same mob in the same location, 6.44% of my loot was materials other than ammo (including shrapnel) or animal oil.

Just one example but it's indicative of the extent of the change.


Why would they want to retain the old system? Their players will not get a larger amount of stackable items like oils etc but more spread out across like 30 small stacks instead of 5-6.

Because if markup on resources genuinely does increase, but are more commonly found on, say, Cyrene mobs, more hunters will be attracted to that planet with the intention of farming those items to transport them back to Calypso. Thus they benefit from retaining their old loot tables (at the expense of the overall game economy in the long term, I would argue).
 
Its wrong. No huge demand will be created (only speculative in first 2 days), because here is not only FAP's in quest. I think by MA will be approved to upgrade with large mushrooms only maybe 100 faps to Adj, 30-50 to imp and several faps to Mod, because if mushrooms will drop very often, its fully kill all FAP's market. As I wrote above - its unacceptable. Best way IMO - to remove cheat items, not to add.

However, I agree that hunters during of these quests will require supply with L FAP's.

You are aware that the 2 faps in question are not economical, compared to others (not talking bout uber UL faps) and I´m sure that the new adj/imp/mod ones will not have their econess improved, only uses and heal range will be affected, probably their decay increase will be more than the benefits.
 
Kim ? So it is possible for some planet partners to keep old loot system over new one ? Or this change will be 100% for all.

I am asking becourse ,lets call it, "mixed" loot system is more harmfull for economy than old one alone. Especialy for PP's whose chose to pick new one ( I assume Callypso had no such choice )
 
You are aware that the 2 faps in question are not economical, compared to others (not talking bout uber UL faps) and I´m sure that the new adj/imp/mod ones will not have their econess improved, only uses and heal range will be affected, probably their decay increase will be more than the benefits.

As we haven't seen them ingame yet it is hard to say how the stats will be and based on wild guess. Seeing HOW uneco the original faps are it could very well be that eco is improved to align them somewhat more with the SIB ones. My guess would be along with Hedoc Mayhem around 7-8 hpp, but at the moment this guess is as good as any and based on pure speculation and gut feeling.
 
What we can do to limit the effect of such items on the economy as a whole is to do things like item upgrade quests where two items can make one better etc, but on a completely voluntary basis.
Speaking of, any plans for the FAP-90 here too? There has been an upgrade path added for EK-series, but the FAP-90 (that dropped like candy on a Longtooth migration a few years back - thereby driving MU down something silly, now making also it plausible to upgrade in this device-consuming manner) could perhaps also use some of this love?
 
So storage will still remain full with all extractors, all enchancer crafting resources, components ect.
On that matter palyers posted for years as a problem not much with economy but with massive quantity of different items for doing same thing.
If we are on so drastic changes MA could do universal extractors and universal crafting components, enhancer components ect.. and free our storage for at least 100 differen items.
 
So storage will still remain full with all extractors, all enchancer crafting resources, components ect.
On that matter palyers posted for years as a problem not much with economy but with massive quantity of different items for doing same thing.
If we are on so drastic changes MA could do universal extractors and universal crafting components, enhancer components ect.. and free our storage for at least 100 differen items.

If you really would like that, just TT it, because such a change would turn it into TT-food.
 
Why would they want to retain the old system? Their players will not get a larger amount of stackable items like oils etc but more spread out across like 30 small stacks instead of 5-6.

Because right now, on Calypso, we get in the area of 10-15% of loot with actual markup value. On other planets they are getting the old 50-60% worth of markupable loots. That's triple the markup return on other planets, who cares that it's broken up into different stacks when you're making three times as much in return.

At this point, there really hasn't been any change in markup on these loots, but once (if) it does, the other planets are going to be getting triple the amount of markup-worthy goods.

I'm also not sure if you realize how damaging it is to player confidence that an uber's markup loot is capped, what's the point now in hoping for an uber if it's going to be 95% ammo. Ammo return is only helpful if you actually have a reason to want to hunt, and if the big returns out there are just going to be more ammo, there's really nothing to hope for anymore, and thus no real reason to want to hunt.
 
If you really would like that, just TT it, because such a change would turn it into TT-food.

Nah, i used or consumed resources and materials i looted until now, producing items, tools and other for own use.
And i was happy to not have to pay MU to anyone because that could mean my game play cost go up.

TT game is what MA offer.
TT (MA) dont pay MU.

If anyone think that one item/resource on auction have too low bidout he can PM seller and offer him more and sponsorise that seller or reseller gameplay.
Any attempt to inflate prices mean someone will have to pay that inflated MU and that mean gameplay cost increase.
 
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Well while i'm at it, a direct Qustion towards Kim:
Are there plans to not only lower supply of the stackables, but also to raise demand ?

Thanks in advance

This.

Giving more TT food in order to create a higher MU due to scarcity of common items is just not a good plan. This is why some people want more advertising, as a larger player base should increase the demand.

Also on the topic of partial TT (L) items in loot. The MU on most of these items is based on the full TT value. I looted a pistol with a full TT value of 17 ped, the current MU on it is 111%. The one I looted is only 7 ped. So, it is already at 111% just from the auction fee and rounding.

I will TT that pistol and MA will lose the auction fee. since the beginning of the year the Calypso auction sale lost about 200 sales pages and 4 orders pages. I'm guessing revenues are way down.

Giving us more stuff to tt isn't gonna help that.
 
Summing up the information, I can say only one thing - very soon we can see on the auction and here in the forum many-many players will sell their armor/weapon/FAP's, as often happens in period of global changes.
Some players will sell also LA's :)
 
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