The real estate bubble

Just like the real estate prices were artificially high, so they are in Entropia. Don't believe me? Look at the amount of appartments and shops/booths owned by the EstateBroker. This is "limiting supply" in a way that OPEC wished they'd control oil prices. (Just look around in Minopolis)

But, what about our investments, is the common response when someone questions the housing prices.

I was thinking about this. And yes, I do own some small estate, so I too would be hurt if prices would drop. But... as things are now, there is little demand for the estates anyway. So chances of selling aren't as good as onemight hope.

And if the market price would be adjusted to the real value, this would imply we are forced to take our loss. But this loss is actually already implicitely present. I mean, how many people actually believe an appartment is worth US$ 40-50? Sure, there are some people. But look around and you see most estates... unsold. So there are many people who do not own an appartment, but who might otherwise.

Look at the amount of shops and booths which stand empty. I cannot help but wonder, would it not be best if we get the "correction", which many of us know is inevitable, done with? That we take our loss, but in return, get larger occupancy rates?

More people furnishing appartments, for the fun of it, thus boosting the crafting market, thus boosting hunting and mining? More people owning and managing shops, thus increasing trade and improving our economy?

Or alternatively, how about a lease option? You own a shop, and you rent it out for an agreed price. It works in SecondLife, why would it not work here? And if there were such a lease, would this not encourage people to open up a shop temporarily? They might love it, and end up buying afterwards!

All in all, I think our Real Estate market is gridlocked right now. And it needs to be fixed.

Furthermore, I am still waiting for my landclaiming rights, which would come with my CLD.

Nice to buy in

I would love to be able to buy an estate - but the prices I have seen on the ones that have been for sale are way out of my price range..... I left Entropia and have just recently came back but when I left I did have a few land deeds I sold but don't even have those anymore... Estate prices here seem to be MUCH higher then buying a land mass in Secondlife.. own land in Secondlife as well...

This appartments you see Markus Challander Estate Broker (MA avatar) as owner, are already sold.
The buyer just didn´t claim it, as he bought as speculation object. Hope for rising prices, and sell for profit.
Obviously prices went down instead raising, it was fail speculation and now someone sits on many estate deeds he refuses to sell at a loss, speak this estates are off the market untill price will raise again.
Very unlikely this will happen, due to new implemented appartment complexes by PP.

Actually I got one appartment myself, not used atm, and if used just as additional storage for a hand full collectors items and/or some speculative objects owned by myself, I am waiting for time to sell.

One good reason to buy at least one appartment, is that you need to be estate owner to use ingame addscreen terminal for global advertising.

GoNi said:

This appartments you see Markus Challander Estate Broker (MA avatar) as owner, are already sold.
The buyer just didn´t claim it, as he bought as speculation object. Hope for rising prices, and sell for profit.
Obviously prices went down instead raising, it was fail speculation and now someone sits on many estate deeds he refuses to sell at a loss, speak this estates are off the market untill price will raise again.
Very unlikely this will happen, due to new implemented appartment complexes by PP.

Actually I got one appartment myself, not used atm, and if used just as additional storage for a hand full collectors items and/or some speculative objects owned by myself, I am waiting for time to sell.

One good reason to buy at least one appartment, is that you need to be estate owner to use ingame addscreen terminal for global advertising.

Click to expand...

And you get an extra present during holidays!

MA found magic way to fix prices.
They practice it right now on mobs loot.
All inactive estsaste owners and aslo those who dont use it often will get shrapnel in ammount equal to deed TT wich will turn back to estate broker.

GoNi said:

This appartments you see Markus Challander Estate Broker (MA avatar) as owner, are already sold.
The buyer just didn´t claim it, as he bought as speculation object. Hope for rising prices, and sell for profit.
Obviously prices went down instead raising, it was fail speculation and now someone sits on many estate deeds he refuses to sell at a loss, speak this estates are off the market untill price will raise again.
Very unlikely this will happen, due to new implemented appartment complexes by PP.

Actually I got one appartment myself, not used atm, and if used just as additional storage for a hand full collectors items and/or some speculative objects owned by myself, I am waiting for time to sell.

One good reason to buy at least one appartment, is that you need to be estate owner to use ingame addscreen terminal for global advertising.

Click to expand...

How long can a person sit on an "fictional loss", before he has to accept that the loss is real? Take the loss, get the money out that you CAN get out, and move on...

Wollongong said:

How long can a person sit on an "fictional loss", before he has to accept that the loss is real? Take the loss, get the money out that you CAN get out, and move on...

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Some people have patience and hope.
If he/she doesn´t need to liquidize the money locked to the deeds, there is no need to sell (accept the loss).

Personaly I did invest into some items myself, and refuse selling at loss, keep the items.
This always reminds me that investment is never without a risk, when I see that items.

GoNi said:

This appartments you see Markus Challander Estate Broker (MA avatar) as owner, are already sold.
The buyer just didn´t claim it, as he bought as speculation object. Hope for rising prices, and sell for profit.
Obviously prices went down instead raising, it was fail speculation and now someone sits on many estate deeds he refuses to sell at a loss, speak this estates are off the market untill price will raise again.
Very unlikely this will happen, due to new implemented appartment complexes by PP.

Actually I got one appartment myself, not used atm, and if used just as additional storage for a hand full collectors items and/or some speculative objects owned by myself, I am waiting for time to sell.

One good reason to buy at least one appartment, is that you need to be estate owner to use ingame addscreen terminal for global advertising.

Click to expand...

First time I had heard this, I was under the impression MA just decided to stop releasing them. Marcus Callendar did actually release a few over the years from what I recall. I cant imagine MA would sell off "reserved" units. Perhaps this was the case with FOMA apts, certainly interested if this is the case.

GoNi said:

Some people have patience and hope.
If he/she doesn´t need to liquidize the money locked to the deeds, there is no need to sell (accept the loss).

Personaly I did invest into some items myself, and refuse selling at loss, keep the items.
This always reminds me that investment is never without a risk, when I see that items.

Click to expand...

But...but...
by not selling... you are basically accepting a full loss of "investment".

Corinth Market Place - 20 odd booths, 3 operating, 17 unclaimed. A success story!

Wollongong said:

How long can a person sit on an "fictional loss", before he has to accept that the loss is real? Take the loss, get the money out that you CAN get out, and move on...

Click to expand...

A very long time. Kind of an odd question here really.

Wollongong said:

But...but...
by not selling... you are basically accepting a full loss of "investment".

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If people are as stubborn as me , i rather tt my stuff therein raising the value for others instead of selling it with 60% or more loss. Yes, I know its not ideal but then its also about what i can afford and what i cannot. Most people do not invest in a game what they cannot afford to lose, at least i don't. Also sentiments get in the way of rationality at some point and while not ideal, it is how things unfold.

As for the real estate bubble, that's indicative of a growing economy in most countries.. Its when the bubble bursts which we need to be worried about as that would mean a stagnant or declining economy and in EU's case the shutting down of more servers.

I have to disagree with you on the claim that the bubble is indicative of a growing economy.

After the RL bubble burst, there have been a lot of homes not being sold because the owners refused to lower their prices to the new equilibrium price. That is not a sign of economic progress, it is gridlocking the market because people continue to live in the past economic reality, and somehow hope that -for whatever reason- people will return to paying inflated prices.

Look at Few Scars' remark about the 17 unclaimed booths. I really cannot imagine how you would try to convince me that this is the sign of a growing economy. In my view, that is either MA refusing to sell stuff, or -indeed- unclaimed estates of which the owner is stubbornly holding on to some outdated economic expectation.

But, Divinity, I sure wouldn't mind if all those people would tt their deeds. At least that would enable MA to put them on the market again, perhaps some real players can then obtain them. I sure wouldn't mind owning a booth. I wouldn't be able to fill it with upmarket stuff, but even a booth filled with low end items is better than an entirely empty booth.

Every sale is one, after all...

Wollongong said:

I have to disagree with you on the claim that the bubble is indicative of a growing economy.

After the RL bubble burst, there have been a lot of homes not being sold because the owners refused to lower their prices to the new equilibrium price. That is not a sign of economic progress, it is gridlocking the market because people continue to live in the past economic reality, and somehow hope that -for whatever reason- people will return to paying inflated prices.

Look at Few Scars' remark about the 17 unclaimed booths. I really cannot imagine how you would try to convince me that this is the sign of a growing economy. In my view, that is either MA refusing to sell stuff, or -indeed- unclaimed estates of which the owner is stubbornly holding on to some outdated economic expectation.

But, Divinity, I sure wouldn't mind if all those people would tt their deeds. At least that would enable MA to put them on the market again, perhaps some real players can then obtain them. I sure wouldn't mind owning a booth. I wouldn't be able to fill it with upmarket stuff, but even a booth filled with low end items is better than an entirely empty booth.

Every sale is one, after all...

Click to expand...

I never said we were in a bubble in the first place. You have to first understand what constituted the bubble in real estate in real life. It was financing and refinancing of the same property by the banks which caused it. In entropia, i have not come across any person who has taken loans out to buy apartments and shops. So the monetary implications along with the stress is very different then in real life.

Try getting a shop in twin peaks and you will see that the demand is still high. When i had one, I was offered multiple deals all in the vicinity of what I wanted and i obviously took the highest one. Eventually it is about effectiveness and not every thing in EU is the same. The good stuff still sells, albeit at times with some patience whereas the less useful ones drop to affordable levels. I don't think MA will ever interfere with the free market that is here and if they do, they will be pissing on there own grave.

As for tt'ing deeds considering the fact that the deeds have 0 tt value the owner might as well just leave it in his storage. People can be irrational at times but that would be plain stupidity. My comment on that was basically aimed at a stackable which dropped big time and i did tt it instead of selling for the 5-10% mu that i could have made otherwise.

If you are committed there are plenty of ways to get your purpose solved , ranging from converting a cheap appartment and having shopkeepers or getting one of the less used booths which go for 2-3k peds. Granted they wont have the best of locations, but if u are low on peds you have to be high on ideas to make the best of what you have.

Instead of trying to get EU to adapt to you, try adapting to the game as that is what it is about.

Divinity said:

Instead of trying to get EU to adapt to you, try adapting to the game as that is what it is about.

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You seem to be misinterpreting my intention with this thread. This is not a make-things-cheaper-so-I-can-own-one-too. This is mainly about wanting the real estate to work, to be used the way it is meant to.

No, MA should not take away deeds from people who purchased them, of course not. But something needs to be done to get the real estate going again. Appartments are a nice way to express yourself, and furnishing helps the economy. Shops and booths are great, but running between deserted places is a drag, and it also isn't advertising to newcomers that the game is strong. In other games, there is business on every corner. Here, most corners are empty.

Wollongong said:

You seem to be misinterpreting my intention with this thread. This is not a make-things-cheaper-so-I-can-own-one-too. This is mainly about wanting the real estate to work, to be used the way it is meant to.

No, MA should not take away deeds from people who purchased them, of course not. But something needs to be done to get the real estate going again. Appartments are a nice way to express yourself, and furnishing helps the economy. Shops and booths are great, but running between deserted places is a drag, and it also isn't advertising to newcomers that the game is strong. In other games, there is business on every corner. Here, most corners are empty.

Click to expand...

I am totally with you that MA need to redefine and scope out the purpose and effectiveness of shops. With the presence of auction, they are rendered almost obsolete. Most people including myself are lazy and to be honest, finding which shop has which item is a complete pain in the ass. Add to that the archaic system where if someone wants to put the same item for sale in a shop multiple times, its a pain for the shopkeeper too. So yes, MA need to address this system with some major overhaul if they plan to make it an effective piece of real estate.

A few suggestions

1. I personally dislike running around waiting for stuff to load and then crashing half the time. I would like a terminal at every mall where i can browse what is being sold and at what price. I don't mind running to the shop once i know that the item i want is there but going through all shops to find one item is so not a future thing

2. From shopkeeper front, I would like to be able to create templates and then assign same/similar item to the template thereby reducing the number of clicks needed to list similar items.

There is no real advantage in owning an apartment in EU so how we can even think of a bubble? It's not like the avatar needs a house to stay over night.

I don't understand why MA doesn't develop this system further and create incentive for players to own an apartment. It's all nice and cute to hang useless crap all over your apartment but what's the gain? It's not like this thing is cheap.

If MA would add a storage terminal in every apartment, making so that you can have access to an extra 100 slots in storage from your apartment. Add the possibility to buy terminals or customize the apartment with your own custom global message for crafting. Such features will create a reason for people to invest time and money to turn an apartment into something more then what it is now.

Ah well... one can only dream

sitram said:

There is no real advantage in owning an apartment in EU so how we can even think of a bubble? It's not like the avatar needs a house to stay over night.

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Simple. An item without clear benefit costing about $40... that's a bubble, if you ask me.

If MA would add a storage terminal in every apartment, making so that you can have access to an extra 100 slots in storage from your apartment. Add the possibility to buy terminals or customize the apartment with your own custom global message for crafting. Such features will create a reason for people to invest time and money to turn an apartment into something more then what it is now.

Ah well... one can only dream

Click to expand...

Good idea, actually.

Divinity:
your first idea was suggested many times, I think. I totally agree with that idea.
The second, I don't get. Maybe because I am not a shopowner.

Divinity said:

I never said we were in a bubble in the first place. You have to first understand what constituted the bubble in real estate in real life. It was financing and refinancing of the same property by the banks which caused it. In entropia, i have not come across any person who has taken loans out to buy apartments and shops. So the monetary implications along with the stress is very different then in real life.

Click to expand...

While I have no concrete evidence of it, except for the big ones like ND, I do believe that a lot of the money in game is loaned. Just do a search here on PCF for "credit cards" and you'll find a ton of complaints about things like the five card limit.

In fact, I do believe that's a big reason for inflated prices in game (not so much anymore): a lot of people play with money they never had. The in game banks confirm this to a certain extent: Why would these be introduced if there wasn't an ongoing loaning culture among players?

WhiningSkeptic said:

a lot of people play with money they never had. The in game banks confirm this to a certain extent: Why would these be introduced if there wasn't an ongoing loaning culture among players?

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The few times I've used "banks" myself here in Entropia, it has been for the purpose of freeing up money for perhaps 10-15 minutes, without the risk of losing the items you pawned.

Had the banks instead worked like actual banks and not pawnshops, I wouldn't hesitate a second depositing serious cash - provided I did get ~80%-95% (based on 99% interest when you pawn something).

Not saying I'm representative in any way (I'm not), just that it's possible to use the pawnshops in a non-loaning-culture way. You may very well be correct in your assessment.

sitram said:

Add the possibility to buy terminals or customize the apartment with your own custom global message for crafting. Such features will create a reason for people to invest time and money to turn an apartment into something more then what it is now.

Click to expand...

I like that idea

Beside that, appartment itself is already additional storage.

Actual advantage of owning one is, a free gift to christmas, halloween.
Ability to use ingame add screen terminal (you need to be estate owner).

In the past some players used appartments as containers for sales of various items in one go.
You can sell an appartment together with all items in it.

What is needed is new reasons to own estates... Wish list type stuff.... Free tp from any planet to your apartment once weekly, buffs related to furniture/collections in apt - all duchev logs gets you free access to a new orb instance, all parts of a certain skull collection gives you one free auto revive a month, fishing pole opens new fishing instance, throne opens up a royalty buff, shower gets you a sanitary buff, etc.

It would be really nice to have option to rent out apartment or shop for specific amount of time without having to lend or sell the deed of ownership.

At end of lease and it not renewed all items just get pushed into renters inventory automatically, if not on planet at the time or in pvp lootable have it only pop in when they arrive on planet or leave the pvp lootable areas as loot, so it is visibly show you got stuff added to your inventory.

But then again that would take a competent coder to implement without completely screwing it up and causing things to get lost forever.

So guess I understand why it is not an option.

K-Max said:

It would be really nice to have option to rent out apartment or shop for specific amount of time without having to lend or sell the deed of ownership.

At end of lease and it not renewed all items just get pushed into renters inventory automatically, if not on planet at the time or in pvp lootable have it only pop in when they arrive on planet or leave the pvp lootable areas as loot, so it is visibly show you got stuff added to your inventory.

But then again that would take a competent coder to implement without completely screwing it up and causing things to get lost forever.

So guess I understand why it is not an option.

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"When storage units are abandoned the treasures within are put up on auction"

Skip the back to inventory part and we could have "Storage Wars: Calypso"

sitram said:

There is no real advantage in owning an apartment in EU so how we can even think of a bubble? It's not like the avatar needs a house to stay over night.

I don't understand why MA doesn't develop this system further and create incentive for players to own an apartment. It's all nice and cute to hang useless crap all over your apartment but what's the gain? It's not like this thing is cheap.

If MA would add a storage terminal in every apartment, making so that you can have access to an extra 100 slots in storage from your apartment. Add the possibility to buy terminals or customize the apartment with your own custom global message for crafting. Such features will create a reason for people to invest time and money to turn an apartment into something more then what it is now.

Ah well... one can only dream

Click to expand...

If it doesnt make MA money theres no reason to spend time improving it! Apartments/shops were introduced into the game for one reason and one reason only->money for them! They will never spend one minute trying to improve the experience of owning said apartment/shop because that doesnt make them money.If you can prove it will make them more money then they might do it.

Naithen said:

If it doesnt make MA money theres no reason to spend time improving it! Apartments/shops were introduced into the game for one reason and one reason only->money for them! They will never spend one minute trying to improve the experience of owning said apartment/shop because that doesnt make them money.If you can prove it will make them more money then they might do it.

Click to expand...

Allowing people to paint the walls would actually make MA money.

Naithen said:

If it doesnt make MA money theres no reason to spend time improving it! Apartments/shops were introduced into the game for one reason and one reason only->money for them! They will never spend one minute trying to improve the experience of owning said apartment/shop because that doesnt make them money.If you can prove it will make them more money then they might do it.

Click to expand...

Every trade at a shop makes MA money! Improve Shops improve income for MA.

Often suggested never implemented (read wishlist), shopregister, shop browsing terminals.

Appartments, more options to customize. Wall painting, Wall paper (texture) - would make MA money.

GoNi said:

Every trade at a shop makes MA money! Improve Shops improve income for MA.

Often suggested never implemented (read wishlist), shopregister, shop browsing terminals.

Appartments, more options to customize. Wall painting, Wall paper (texture) - would make MA money.

Click to expand...

Yes please!
Add: maybe when the new parts of the CLD options (housing) are added this would be too?!

GoNi said:

Every trade at a shop makes MA money! Improve Shops improve income for MA.

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How?? The tax goes to the Mall Owner or the Land Owner and not to MA as far as i know..

Irrespective of that MA should improve it because it brings a whole new level of depth to the game and the social architecture..

I don't see a rise of value in any of the current (future) items or property, i do see a decline in value.