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Mob levels don't make sense

Rave

Rave

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I'm just curious if anyone else has noticed this: mobs levels don't seem comparable from mob to mob.

Example:

Mulaak'f Bandit (LV52): 1450 HP, 118 Damage (100% impact), 17110 Threat
Falxangius Stalker (LV48): 3560 HP, 260 Damage (10% Stab, 90% Impact), 92560 Threat
Big Bulk Gen 01 (LV39): 5600 HP, 103 Damage (100% impact), 68452 Threat

Okay, sure the Mulaak'f is pure impact, but even at 90%, the Falx does more impact damage. Other than that, the Falx hits a bit slower but its not a big difference. For me, they both hit me about the same (in terms of evasion), but the Falx is stronger in every other way. Now, the Big Bulk is nearly identical to the Mulaak'f in damage, but far more HP and threat. Yet, the Bulk hits me more often than either of the other two. If the level were merely meant to represent evasion opportunity for my avatar, it wouldn't make sense that the Bulk hits me much more often than the Falx or Mulaak'f.

Nothing about these stats can anyway be properly represented by their mob level, at least from what I can tell. Not to mention the kill points each is worth just doesn't make sense. Why should I get the same number of kill points from a Falx Stalker that I get from mid-maturity Mulaak'fs? The Falx mission chain just isn't worth a damn (bad skill rewards in bad TT value) when you consider how much more you have to spend (ammo and time wise) to finish any given iron mission.

Back in the day there were no visible mob levels, you just went after what you could kill and what you felt like grinding out. Since mob levels were implemented, I never paid much attention, until now. Could anyone offer any insight into this?

Cheers

Rave
 
How is regen on each of those? I know that regen plays a big part of the formula.
 
I can't find exact numbers for the regen on any of those, however, the Bulk and Falx seem to be fairly low (possibly because they have so much HP that its not noticeable with a decent DPS). The Mulaak'f doesn't seem to be very high in regen either.

But even so, the Falx is infinitely stronger than a Mulaak'f in all other regards so even with more regen, I can't imagine how the Mulaak'f is ranked higher.

These are 3 mobs I hunt often since I'm wearing RX, and I can just say that from experience, the Falx are absolutely tougher than most high-impact mobs.

EDIT: Most of my questions arise from curiosity about mission chains (kill point wise). Just seems like killing Falx for mission points is... pointless. I got .80 PED of Dodge for level 1 chain, and it's 4 PED of Dodge for level 2 chain. The other options are plasma tech and heavy weapons. It's possibly the worst mission rewards I have seen for a tough mob.
 
Good point, regen would act as a multiplier to effective hps(EHP) and added damage/armor costs to kill.


Based on that, It would seem a mulaak can regen 3 times its hps over the length of time to kill it?
But then we have attack rate, if it is faster making actual dps higher, fapping time increases giving more EHP to the mob via more regen time.

Still seems off to me, but those are two factors i can think of.
 
forgo said:
Good point, regen would act as a multiplier to effective hps(EHP) and added damage/armor costs to kill.


Based on that, It would seem a mulaak can regen 3 times its hps over the length of time to kill it?
But then we have attack rate, if it is faster making actual dps higher, fapping time increases giving more EHP to the mob via more regen time.

Still seems off to me, but those are two factors i can think of.
Click to expand...

Well, that's what I'm saying... there is no way that a Mulaak'f is regenerating an additional 2000 HP (to match the Falx total HP) in a matter of 16 seconds (I'm using my DPS count @ 90 DPS). That's 125 HP/second. Which is impossible. And that's assuming the Falx never regenerates. Otherwise the Mulaak'f would have to regen much more than 125 HP/second to match the Falx total damage requirement. At 125 HP/second, even with a Mod Fap on your back, most people would not even be able to kill a Mulaak'f simply because most people don't have such a DPS.

I do understand my calculations are based off of MY DPS, but seeing as how I have no trouble killing a Mulaak'f, it clearly can never be higher than any given DPS which it would have to do in order to equal Falx HP+regen.

As far as need to FAP goes, I have 62 impact protection which means a Muulak'f is probably going to average like 20-40 damage on me per hit. And with 42 evader, they don't hit me that often (the Bandit, as I have listed them above). Which means I will rarely need to FAP, and any additional regen for FAP time is negligible.

We also have to consider critical hits from the mobs... a Falx WILL kill me, whether its additional damage or armor penetration, because of its base damage. Even with my 62 impact protection, I get hit for upwards of 450 damage with critical hits. A Mulaak'f Bandit will never kill me with a critical (or hasn't yet).
 
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There are a number of factors that contribute to the L number. Regen, HP, aggressiveness, running speed, attack rate, damage, and probably some other factors I'm not aware of.
 
Neil Stockton said:
There are a number of factors that contribute to the L number. Regen, HP, aggressiveness, running speed, attack rate, damage, and probably some other factors I'm not aware of.
Click to expand...

If you look above, regeneration has been discussed (as well as attack rate). Running speed would hardly be a significant factor since all 3 mobs listed are fast and cannot be strafed (unlike Proteron, ie).

But at face value and from actual experience, Falx are easily the toughest of the three mobs highlighted, ESPECIALLY compared to Muulak'f. But if you can find someone who laughs at Falx but has issues with Muulak'f Bandits, I'll definitely listen to what they have to say.
 
Well, being on other planets since I started playing I found that the lvl of the mob is set as the static title of the mob and has no real link to the stats of the mob itself. Of course this would be great for MA to clean this up.
 
Neil Stockton said:
There are a number of factors that contribute to the L number. Regen, HP, aggressiveness, running speed, attack rate, damage, and probably some other factors I'm not aware of.
Click to expand...

That, plus quite likely mode of movement (flying creatures seem to have higher L numbers) and range of attack (shooting creatures have higher). Perhaps some differences can be explained by e.g. 3 m vs. 6 m attack range - this difference normally wouldn't even be noticed.
 
Haruto Rat said:
That, plus quite likely mode of movement (flying creatures seem to have higher L numbers) and range of attack (shooting creatures have higher). Perhaps some differences can be explained by e.g. 3 m vs. 6 m attack range - this difference normally wouldn't even be noticed.
Click to expand...

I'm curious about this as well, although when I looked closer... Big Bulks are considered 'Flying' :laugh: More like floating, but either way haha.

The attack range is certainly an interesting idea and makes sense. Bots seem to have less HP per their mob level, but they have range. Drone Exterminators, as an example, are problematic even in my RX Optac. They do significant damage at a far range (their range extends beyond mine :laugh:). But they are also level 92 :D

But again, the aforementioned mobs are very close combat. I would love some transparency from MA on the equation, because as of now, it seems wonky.

Again, my curiosity extends to the mission rewards, as they seem to be based off of mob level. And the Falx rewards are as bad as Legionaire and Trooper rewards (which have similar level to Falx at high Gen).
 
Honestly, I'd be surprised if they could provide any transparency, as it seems likely to me that the level system was added in more of subjective fashion than an objective one.
 
Neil Stockton said:
There are a number of factors that contribute to the L number. Regen, HP, aggressiveness, running speed, attack rate, damage, and probably some other factors I'm not aware of.
Click to expand...

My favorite (that I usually only told the disciples that I see with potential to endure the game):


(A) how hard is to get the right setup to break even on that mob.


So let me enumerate some of the conditions to get that setup

Your HP influences the ability of the mob to kill you with one hit

so things that influence the the capability for the mob to send to the revival terminal (with or without armor)
increase the Level


The bankroll necessary to get the law of large number to even out the spikes in the tt return vs tt input also is a factor for (A)


Another factor is what is the difference to hunt them in a team gives you

For example a mob with no regeneration, no running speed and no range of attack would not benefit from being hunted as part of a team, so it is easier for a single player, therefore lower Level.
Also must remember that mobs which move slowly are easier targets for a team if you wonder
 
It's not about the capability of efficiently hunting any given mob, it's about the actual level #s assigned to them and what goes into said formula, because this seems to correlate to mission rewards (and some missions seem to be below par for certain mobs). Of course slow and low-regen mobs are the easiest and most efficient for most players.
 
There is also the possibility of stamina as the basis.
Since maxloot can be coorelated by the stamina of a mob.

Formula I use for my Ap and site numbers, derived from this forum, is:
stamina*64*5 and fits every ath so far, with one or two being very near the max.

It would make sense that the level would follow the same linear pattern. Since stamina has very little to do with anything else it seems.

*edit I looked its not this
falx stalker has 356 stamina for Max Loot (approx): 113920
mulaak I dont have stamina figure
big bulk gen 1 has 560 stam and Max Loot of(approx): 179200

appears not even this matches....
 
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I started playing well before the L### designator and I too find it all confusing. When I ask someone nowadays what MATURITY the mob is they tell me the level when I want the stinking Young, Mature, Old etc.. I could give two squats what level a mob is because that in no way helps me at all.

Take for example Proteron Young and Aurli Young... No clue why their L's are so high I just disregard them.

~Danimal
 
I don´t get the level of traeskeron aswell, its that damn slow.
Easy to kill with a half decent mid level laser carbine, befor it reaches you.
Did it with 28 DPS :D
 
The level of a mob is calculated based on the parameters of each mob. This includes things like Max HP, Regeneration, Attack speed, Accuracy, Damage, Range, Speed etc, they don't all weigh as heavily in the calculation however. High regeneration adds a lot to the mobs level and used to add even more, until a patch about 1.5 years ago or so as some might remember where the levels of many mobs changed slightly towards higher levels on high damage creatures rather than high HP/regen creatures.

In the case of Falxangius vs Mulak'f it's partly based on the large regeneration difference with very high on Mulak'f to very low on Falxangius. There is however a big difference that isn't as easy to see between these mobs which is their attack speeds and accuracy. The Falxangius attacks quite a bit slower than Mulak'f and misses a lot more giving it perhaps a lower overall damage output (depending on evade levels).

However it is true that mobs that are generally considered more dangerous are the ones that hit hard enough to kill you in one or two hits. It's also harder to use armor to deal with such mobs while a monster like Aurli seems pretty easy because it hits super fast but not very hard making it easy to get an armor to absorb pretty much all the damage even though it might actually have higher DPS then a mob that feels tougher because it hits hard and with concentrated damage like the Falxangius.

Regarding mission rewards, they are not based on the mobs levels but another calculation. It usually correlates quite well with the mob levels anyway though.
 
Charlie|Calypso said:
The level of a mob is calculated based on the parameters of each mob. This includes things like Max HP, Regeneration, Attack speed, Accuracy, Damage, Range, Speed etc, they don't all weigh as heavily in the calculation however. High regeneration adds a lot to the mobs level and used to add even more, until a patch about 1.5 years ago or so as some might remember where the levels of many mobs changed slightly towards higher levels on high damage creatures rather than high HP/regen creatures.

In the case of Falxangius vs Mulak'f it's partly based on the large regeneration difference with very high on Mulak'f to very low on Falxangius. There is however a big difference that isn't as easy to see between these mobs which is their attack speeds and accuracy. The Falxangius attacks quite a bit slower than Mulak'f and misses a lot more giving it perhaps a lower overall damage output (depending on evade levels).

However it is true that mobs that are generally considered more dangerous are the ones that hit hard enough to kill you in one or two hits. It's also harder to use armor to deal with such mobs while a monster like Aurli seems pretty easy because it hits super fast but not very hard making it easy to get an armor to absorb pretty much all the damage even though it might actually have higher DPS then a mob that feels tougher because it hits hard and with concentrated damage like the Falxangius.

Regarding mission rewards, they are not based on the mobs levels but another calculation. It usually correlates quite well with the mob levels anyway though.
Click to expand...

Awesome, thanks for explanation!
 
Charlie|Calypso said:
In the case of Falxangius vs Mulak'f it's partly based on the large regeneration difference with very high on Mulak'f to very low on Falxangius. There is however a big difference that isn't as easy to see between these mobs which is their attack speeds and accuracy. The Falxangius attacks quite a bit slower than Mulak'f and misses a lot more giving it perhaps a lower overall damage output (depending on evade levels).
Click to expand...

Accuracy? Eureka! Somebody tell Doer and others there is new information for the "how evade works " Entropedia page! Would be interesting to see if we can work out the accuracy for some mobs :)
 
Charlie|Calypso said:
The level of a mob is calculated based on the parameters of each mob. This includes things like Max HP, Regeneration, Attack speed, Accuracy, Damage, Range, Speed etc, they don't all weigh as heavily in the calculation however. High regeneration adds a lot to the mobs level and used to add even more, until a patch about 1.5 years ago or so as some might remember where the levels of many mobs changed slightly towards higher levels on high damage creatures rather than high HP/regen creatures.

In the case of Falxangius vs Mulak'f it's partly based on the large regeneration difference with very high on Mulak'f to very low on Falxangius. There is however a big difference that isn't as easy to see between these mobs which is their attack speeds and accuracy. The Falxangius attacks quite a bit slower than Mulak'f and misses a lot more giving it perhaps a lower overall damage output (depending on evade levels).

However it is true that mobs that are generally considered more dangerous are the ones that hit hard enough to kill you in one or two hits. It's also harder to use armor to deal with such mobs while a monster like Aurli seems pretty easy because it hits super fast but not very hard making it easy to get an armor to absorb pretty much all the damage even though it might actually have higher DPS then a mob that feels tougher because it hits hard and with concentrated damage like the Falxangius.

Regarding mission rewards, they are not based on the mobs levels but another calculation. It usually correlates quite well with the mob levels anyway though.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the response and clarification, and so quickly too :yay:

However, it may seem that the equation may still need a bit of tweaking. I would still lean towards saying Falx Stalkers are much tougher than Muulak'f. True, higher level Muulak'fs are much tougher than Falx Stalkers because of regen and attack rate... but I don't think a Bandit is nearly as tough as a Falx Stalker.

Anyways, good to know it doesn't really relate to mission rewards. Can we have any clarification on how the rewards are calculated? I just don't have the desire to pump a ton of PED/time into Falx for a few measly PED of Dodge, Plasma, or Heavy Weapons (the last two being unused by most players, I'd imagine). Too be fair, however, there is no information on entropedia for the end stage of Falx (so maybe it's worth it to get that far?)
 
Rave said:
Thank you for the response and clarification, and so quickly too :yay:

However, it may seem that the equation may still need a bit of tweaking. I would still lean towards saying Falx Stalkers are much tougher than Muulak'f. True, higher level Muulak'fs are much tougher than Falx Stalkers because of regen and attack rate... but I don't think a Bandit is nearly as tough as a Falx Stalker.

Anyways, good to know it doesn't really relate to mission rewards. Can we have any clarification on how the rewards are calculated? I just don't have the desire to pump a ton of PED/time into Falx for a few measly PED of Dodge, Plasma, or Heavy Weapons (the last two being unused by most players, I'd imagine). Too be fair, however, there is no information on entropedia for the end stage of Falx (so maybe it's worth it to get that far?)
Click to expand...

Relax, he gave us a finger, lets not bite his arm off. ;)

By using an algorithm to decide the threat levels you are going to get a few that seem odd. I do not think that the threat levels are of such concern that MA is going to put endless amounts of resources to it. Perhaps such a tweak that you suggest would make 20 other mobs have misguiding levels when compared to each other?
 
I don't think I bit his finger off lol, in fact I thanked him for his quick response and insight:laugh:
 
Charlie|Calypso said:
The level of a mob is calculated based on the parameters of each mob. This includes things like Max HP, Regeneration, Attack speed, Accuracy, Damage, Range, Speed etc, they don't all weigh as heavily in the calculation however. High regeneration adds a lot to the mobs level and used to add even more, until a patch about 1.5 years ago or so as some might remember where the levels of many mobs changed slightly towards higher levels on high damage creatures rather than high HP/regen creatures.

In the case of Falxangius vs Mulak'f it's partly based on the large regeneration difference with very high on Mulak'f to very low on Falxangius. There is however a big difference that isn't as easy to see between these mobs which is their attack speeds and accuracy. The Falxangius attacks quite a bit slower than Mulak'f and misses a lot more giving it perhaps a lower overall damage output (depending on evade levels).

However it is true that mobs that are generally considered more dangerous are the ones that hit hard enough to kill you in one or two hits. It's also harder to use armor to deal with such mobs while a monster like Aurli seems pretty easy because it hits super fast but not very hard making it easy to get an armor to absorb pretty much all the damage even though it might actually have higher DPS then a mob that feels tougher because it hits hard and with concentrated damage like the Falxangius.

Regarding mission rewards, they are not based on the mobs levels but another calculation. It usually correlates quite well with the mob levels anyway though.
Click to expand...

Sometimes we see threads on this forum saying we dont get answers to our questions, that is a pretty comprehensive answer Charlie - thank you for that.

Interesting to know how many factors are taken into account into "The Equation"

:)
 
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