How long will Entropia be around for? Are there people who have invested a lot of money?
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sndlwood
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Didn't we already see one planet partner pack it in, terminate his development team and turn his investment attention towards other non-Entropia things? Didn't we see another significant investor back out of a deal to buy Planet Calypso and develop a whole bunch of entertainment related planets? And what the hell happened to China?
I don't think will happen any day soon, but some of the folks "investing" here are going to have a very rude awakening when one day the servers go down for scheduled maintenance and don't come back up.
I keep my inventory low, I liquidated mt CLD's when they were at 1500, I deposit very sparingly and play as frugally as possible in an effort to make my PED last as long as possible, so that when that day comes and there's no more Entropia I won't have lost anything but a few grand in skills and a decade of my life
I don't think will happen any day soon, but some of the folks "investing" here are going to have a very rude awakening when one day the servers go down for scheduled maintenance and don't come back up.
I keep my inventory low, I liquidated mt CLD's when they were at 1500, I deposit very sparingly and play as frugally as possible in an effort to make my PED last as long as possible, so that when that day comes and there's no more Entropia I won't have lost anything but a few grand in skills and a decade of my life
FauconIoji
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Lots of depression in this thread, lol.
I run a Society called "Entropia Revival project". Although there's a lot of uncontrollable factors mentioned her, we're on-world doing what we can to try and keep the game alive.
A few things to note:
1.) MA did substantially better this year than last year. They're getting more players and keeping more players. Although they're still operating a loss, it's at substantially LESS of a loss than last year, and this is a result of strong advertising. (Source, MinArk Financial Statement).
2.) MA is tossing around a lot of ideas to make up for the remainder of the operating loss and one of these includes premium accounts - yes, that's right, MA is gearing up to start charging for the game. Although not everyone will need to pay for the premium account, it will give additional benefits that will primarily be poised to help traders excel in the market (Source: MindArk State of the Universe 2013 and MindArk Financial Statement. The biggest cited reason for beginning to operate at a loss, from what I can tell, is the banks. As soon as the banks were implemented on world with the grand plan of allowing people to have a debit card out here in the real world, things began to go south. MA just bit off a little more than they could chew and had to backpedal. (Source: Wikipedia)
3.) Many planet partners backed out because of the cost it takes to develop a planet on world. Most potential planet partners have been companies not entirely prepared to live up to the task of creating the content they need to create. It's a massive undertaking. The only planet that doesn't fit into that schema is SEE, who had a financial falling out with mindArk after MindArk attempted to charge SEE 6 million dollars to acquire Calypso when the planet was, at the time, only worth about 1,7 million dollars. The reality was MindArk needed 6 million to stay in operation. They ended up getting it another way - the CLDs - and now Calypso is only work about 800k. That being said, MindArk has hinted that they have another potential buyer, but this time they've learned and they're keeping their mouth shut until the transaction is complete (Source: MindArk Financial statement. Not linking it again. lol).
4.) on world trade and expenditure are down substantially. There are a lot of factors involved in this and there isn't one specific answer on how to "fix" a broken system. however, there are things that can be done on-world to help bring up the overall value of the planet and it's partners. Seeing as that's the only thing we can control, my blog (which can be found here) has been focusing on these things to do what we can to help. We've been working on the price of sweat, and helping with the mall shops, among many other things.
My overall thoughts? Entropia isn't going anywhere. It, like every other country, experienced a bit of a depression. But it's coming back, and it will survive. The key is for two things to happen: The government to operate on a profit, and the privatized businesses to operate on a profit.
Of those things, the first is the responsibility of MindArk. The second is (as MindArk has said in the past) the responsibility of those players who have taken up that role.
So don't be depressed. We got this.
I run a Society called "Entropia Revival project". Although there's a lot of uncontrollable factors mentioned her, we're on-world doing what we can to try and keep the game alive.
A few things to note:
1.) MA did substantially better this year than last year. They're getting more players and keeping more players. Although they're still operating a loss, it's at substantially LESS of a loss than last year, and this is a result of strong advertising. (Source, MinArk Financial Statement).
2.) MA is tossing around a lot of ideas to make up for the remainder of the operating loss and one of these includes premium accounts - yes, that's right, MA is gearing up to start charging for the game. Although not everyone will need to pay for the premium account, it will give additional benefits that will primarily be poised to help traders excel in the market (Source: MindArk State of the Universe 2013 and MindArk Financial Statement. The biggest cited reason for beginning to operate at a loss, from what I can tell, is the banks. As soon as the banks were implemented on world with the grand plan of allowing people to have a debit card out here in the real world, things began to go south. MA just bit off a little more than they could chew and had to backpedal. (Source: Wikipedia)
3.) Many planet partners backed out because of the cost it takes to develop a planet on world. Most potential planet partners have been companies not entirely prepared to live up to the task of creating the content they need to create. It's a massive undertaking. The only planet that doesn't fit into that schema is SEE, who had a financial falling out with mindArk after MindArk attempted to charge SEE 6 million dollars to acquire Calypso when the planet was, at the time, only worth about 1,7 million dollars. The reality was MindArk needed 6 million to stay in operation. They ended up getting it another way - the CLDs - and now Calypso is only work about 800k. That being said, MindArk has hinted that they have another potential buyer, but this time they've learned and they're keeping their mouth shut until the transaction is complete (Source: MindArk Financial statement. Not linking it again. lol).
4.) on world trade and expenditure are down substantially. There are a lot of factors involved in this and there isn't one specific answer on how to "fix" a broken system. however, there are things that can be done on-world to help bring up the overall value of the planet and it's partners. Seeing as that's the only thing we can control, my blog (which can be found here) has been focusing on these things to do what we can to help. We've been working on the price of sweat, and helping with the mall shops, among many other things.
My overall thoughts? Entropia isn't going anywhere. It, like every other country, experienced a bit of a depression. But it's coming back, and it will survive. The key is for two things to happen: The government to operate on a profit, and the privatized businesses to operate on a profit.
Of those things, the first is the responsibility of MindArk. The second is (as MindArk has said in the past) the responsibility of those players who have taken up that role.
So don't be depressed. We got this.
According to available near-real-time data (CLD payouts), they are doing worse than last year; 14.5% worse if we compare the first 44 weeks of 2013 and 2014. In addition, CLD return over time has never been at a lower point. If we assume a strong correlation between Calypso (by far the strongest economy in Entropia) and MA revenue, that paints a rather pale picture that does not agree with your assertion.
Could you share the data, and sources of the data, making you think they are doing better, even substantially better 2014 than 2013?
AxeMurderer
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Sure but 'lower cost to play' and the fact that even when some players can play with CLD income the ROI is almost the same makes your conclusions invalid
How is that? Previous financial statements have displayed a strong correlation between Calypso income, and MA as a whole. If a company gets less revenue while keeping expenses, it's doing worse - not better, and most certainly not substantially better.
So what part of my conclusion do you claim is invalid? The only variable I see would be the correlation between Calypso revenue and MA. That seems to suggest you know something that I don't, that MA have magically detached its revenue from Calypso?
Please elaborate.
P.S. A 15% drop from one year to the next isn't "almost the same". Not even close.
AxeMurderer
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MA1: Cost to play 1$ per day + 20 000 players = 20 000 $ per day income - CLD ROI 20%
MA2: Cost to play 0,5$ per day + 30 000 players = 15 000 $ per day income - CLD ROI 15%
now what is better MA1 or MA2?
and not to mention that planet Arkadia and other planets also generate MA profit but less CLD ROI
Thanks for Clarifying Neil. These details are very useful to know. I'm glad I chose Calypso to create a Character on. I had no clue what to pick on character creation.
A bit off topic, but as you sound knowledgeable do you know or can link to information as to what is included in Calypso Revenue? I understand it to be money spent in TT (Is this net of selling stuff back to the TT?) and repairs in addition to Auction fees, crafting costs?
Magnus Mag
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you mean this guy?..no wonder he failed...
i always have to decide if i have to rofl or facepalm seeing this..
Is it possible if it became cheaper to play, that people could play for longer or place bigger bets, thus resulting in
MA3: Cost to play 2(0,5$ per day) + 30 000 players = 30 000 $ per day income
or
MA4: Cost to play 3(0,5$ per day) + 30 000 players = 45 000 $ per day income
Angel
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Why are people using CLDs as a means to measure revenue? It only counts for Calypso anyways. How about activity in Arkadia and other planets. It seems many players has been active else were reducing CLD revenue. I don't think CLD generate revenue from
Orotan events or other planets anyways.
Orotan events or other planets anyways.
Sunsout Gunsout
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You've stolen my lifelong plan, though in my version there was beer and/or Monster
Me too!
I plan on building retirement villas for aging EU players in a beautiful valley somewhere. There will be a big clubhouse for everyone to use with kegs of beer always on tap with hi-speed internet, stripper poles, and a free BBQ restaurant available. The valley will be gated so cops can't come in. Drugs are recommended, along with hippie clothes for comfortableness. We will grow fresh fruit in our massive greenhouse, have an unending supply of fresh water from an untapped aquifer I have discovered, and will spend our golden years shooting mobs. There will also be an altar where we sacrifice scammers, and if you are caught whining about loot, you have to clean the bathrooms that day.
There will also be dirt-bike tracks everywhere, and a huge airplane hanger that we can fill with cool cars, and someone who knows how to make feta cheese will be hired as our cook. Also, the fishing will be awesome there.
This community will also be marketed towards slightly aging strippers looking for a place to retire early.
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Kitty
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FauconIoji
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I did.
Read the financial statement, that I linked in the original post. It compares 2013 to 2012. You can see, in plain, straight numbers, that there is improvement of over 17 million SEK in revenue. As I said, they're still operating a loss - just not nearly as bad of one.
You have to remember that "MindArk" and "Calypso" are two different things. Calypso isn't doing as well this year than it has in previous years, but that's because it's still owned by MindArk, who is more focused on selling it than managing it.
You'll notice in the financial statement that Caly's net worth has gone down substantially. But again, despite this, MindArk as a whole is doing better.
The CLDs are only a snapshot of how Calypso is doing. They are *Calypso* Land Deeds.
Edit: I don't post the numbers here because I expect people to read the "Source" when I source something in the post and link it directly
For your convenience, I'll link it again. Here is the Financial statement outlining the improvement. This is the same link as the one you didn't read in my last post. Here is the proof you asked for that was already there. This is the proof. Proof. I'm making this link really long to make sure it's noticed this time. This is a link to proof.
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FauconIoji
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You are correct.
The people who post about CLDs being a good repsresntation of MA as a whole are just stuck in the old days when "MindArk" and "Calypso" were one and the same.
A lot of people make the argument that "Calypso is still owned my MindArk" and this is true but it is by no means their only source of revenue. If it were, MindArk wouldn't keep trying to sell it to a planet partner.
It is possible that Calypso can be on the decline while MindArk is on the way up. And that, according to the financial statement I linked in my first post, is exactly what's happening.
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I did - when it was released.
You might notice it refers to the year 2013. The annual report for 2014 won't be released until around end-of June 2015.
I guess we'll have to return to this subject in approx 8 months.
Speaking only for myself, it's due to Calypso historically has been the by far largest source of revenue for MA - even with other planets created. I believe this correlation has not changed in a massive way, despite other planet running events, but we'll have to wait until approx July 2015 to see whether or not I have to modify that standpoint. It's also the only reasonable (and hopefully 100% reliable) source of information available unless we always want to be 7 months behind the curve (and get info only once/year).
FauconIoji
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Eh, I should have said last year. I can go back and edit my post to change the date, but I won't really have to change anything else.
It doesn't change the fact that MA has grown based on what we currently know and that the CLDs therefore are a bad gauge of how MA is doing as a whole.
Edit: My reasoning to back this up is pretty simple: If you look at the CLD value during the period in which the financial statement is released, the trends don't match. I just thought I should point that out for clarity's sake.
On looking into CLD value, I actually stumbled across a few graphs that point to CLD's generally being on the incline - not decline anyway. Source: Entropia Planets
Although this is third party, so it's questionable as to exactly how much weight this holds.
There's a lot more that goes into a business than just revenue. There's operating costs and all that good stuff, of which MA has been making changes to since 2013.
That being said we'll see if the trend continues with this upcoming financial report in 8 months, but in the meantime I'm going by what I know, and what I know keeps me thinking positive because the numbers, according to everything I've read (on CLDs, the roadmap, the financial statements and the State of the UNiverse Address), are improving.
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billairboy
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I don't know what you are talking about, the net sell for 2013: 46 797 KSEK for 2012: 46 478 KSEK.
WhiningSkeptic
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I have not looked at the papers but revenue and net sells is not the same thing.
Edit: Aha. Sales doesn't even get to 10M USD.
FauconIoji
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I really wish people would read things...
But I guess I'll spell it out since no matter how many times I source things, no one ever reads through the entire thing
cash flow from investing activities Parent company(page 17):
2012: -4.2 million
2013: +7.8 million
(improvement)
Operating activities Parent Company (page 17):
Between 2012 and 2013, reduced costs by 18 million
(improvement, that isn't income / caly related)
Profit Statement of Parent Company (page 14):
For the record, this is the number that matters.
Net Profit 2012: -27 Million (operating at a loss, as I said)
Net Profit 2013: -9.3 Million (operating at LESS of a loss, as I said)
(improvement)
Total Operating Profit, parent company (page 14):
2012: -29 Million
2013: -8.7 Million
(Improvement)
Cash Flow for the Year (page 13):
2012: -6.9 Million
2013: +41 Thousand
(Improvement)
Can we all stop being debbie-downers now?
And please.. read the entire statement before posting.......
Wollongong
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Source please. Because last I heard, is that the sale to a PP would not go through, and instead, it would eb done through the cld. So CLD owners took the place of the pp (and some dev)
Right. Now we're making sense. Thanks.
Perhaps you should indeed edit that, else it could look like you may be posting today but from a year ago. Time paradoxes...What I study is (obviously) the payouts, which reflects Caplypso revenue, not the sales price of the CLD's, which only reflects what people are willing to pay for them (which seems to be the only graphs on the linked-to site - in-system market history). Those two numbers have pretty much no correlation.
Just for the record, I didn't intend to express neither pessimism nor optimism. It was just that the statement seemed to contradict data available, and as such I felt it prudent to question the claim. At the time of my initial comment, the claim referred to 2014 vs. 2013, which you now clarified should have been 2013 vs. 2012.
Anyway, let's come back to this in 8 months and see where it went.
Cheers!
billairboy
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Well hello mister nice guy!
I was answering to your statement:
"You can see, in plain, straight numbers, that there is improvement of over 10 million dollars in revenue."
The reallity is, for the parent company: 44 696 027 SEK 2013 42 396 303 SEK 2012:
That is an increase with 2.3 million SEK, not dollars. And if you look at the group, that is the more interesting thing to look at, I quote from page 6: "Group revenues amounted to SEK 50.1 million (previous year SEK 60.8 million)."
I can understand you did a mistake writing dollars instead of SEK, but it still not correct.
FauconIoji
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The last sale attempt was to SEE virtual studios - the price asked was 6 million. Which is insane, because of the noted current net worth of calypso (which hasn't crossed the 2 million mark in 2 financial statements now).
The CLDs came through and brought in a total of 6 million. The only thing we learned from that whole fiasco is that MindArk needed 6 million dollars, which, according to them, went to a lot of different places. There's tons of speculation on that and I can source where THEY say it went to, but there aren't any numbers to back that up. You can pretty much figure it out, though. The 2013 financial statement makes note of a series of infrastructure upgrades and marketing pushes.
It's also worth noting that MA sold off one of their buildings during this time. That can be noted in the financial statement. Building expenditures went from a few million right down to 0 and there's a line item "loss on sale of buding" on page 10. I also read it in one of the official announcements as well, but to be honest I'm getting tired of sourcing billions of things. It's in the financial statement so that should be sufficient. If I find it, i'll come back and source it. Or I just encourage people to read through the statements in entirety.
Anyway, MindArk hasn't officially come out and say "Yes We want to sell Caly again" but why wouldn't they? They're still operating at a loss and this is mostly due to personnel costs. Furthermore, as of 2013 Calypso is only worth around 840,000 dollars. The platform itself is worth over 3.5 million. Since MA is currently operating at a 9.3 Million dollar deficit and are currently operating a loss on their assets (including Calypso) I think the numbers speak for themselves. Said Numbers below.
For page numbers on these, please see my previous posts. I will number figures that I have not yet referenced.
Operating deficit: -9.3 Million
Net Worth of calypso (page 11):
2012: 1,126,495
2013: 838,879
(loss of 287,616)
Net worth of Entropia Platform:
2012: 8.85 Million
2013: 3.5 Million
(Loss of 5.35 Million - big number).
Selling calypso means operating costs go down and MA can retarget towards reducing planned amortization of the platform as a whole, resulting in greater profits across all planets and therefore a win-win for everyone.
Not to mention, they've already tried to dump the planet twice. Once, when they tried to split FPC from MA (in 2008. FPC acquired all rights to Calypso. Even though MA still owned FPC, the income and expenditure was separated) and again with SEE (which was essentially a merger of SEE and FPC).
This is just one of those things I sit back and say "well, they tried it twice. Must be a reason."
FauconIoji
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You're right. I made a concerted effort to leave the word "dollars" out of the numbers missed one. Woops. I'll go back and edit it at some point, I guess.
And I apologize for insisting that you read the statement... but I had good reason because I have to correct you again
:The number you're referring to there is just the amount of sales made. There was an increase of sales of the amount you quoted. Sales does not equal total profit. Profit is what you get after all income (which, in part, includes sales) - all expenses (including operating costs).
Total net Profit of parent company (which is at the bottom of page 14) has a difference of exactly 17,686,125 SEK in MindArk's favor between 2012 and 2013. So, thank you for making me do the math, because my rounding was horrible. its more like 17 million, not the 10 I originally noted.
billairboy
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You're right. I made a concerted effort to leave the word "dollars" out of the numbers missed one. Woops. I'll go back and edit it at some point, I guess.
And I apologize for insisting that you read the statement... but I had good reason because I have to correct you again
The number you're referring to there is just the amount of sales made. There was an increase of sales of the amount you quoted. Sales does not equal total profit. Profit is what you get after all income (which, in part, includes sales) - all expenses (including operating costs).
Total net Profit of parent company (which is at the bottom of page 14) has a difference of exactly 17,686,125 SEK in MindArk's favor between 2012 and 2013. So, thank you for making me do the math, because my rounding was horrible. its more like 17 million, not the 10 I originally noted.
I know how to read an annual report and what the different things means. Problem is that you are mixing up dollars and Sek, and change wording from "revenue" to "profit", which are two different things.
Klod
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Just a note...
Thinking about entropia as a magazine it got quite many long term subscribers. Some have life time sub, some keep buying loose numbers etc.
Well think of it as you like but I like it this way.
Well run, I believe entropia can have a long life, even if it perhaps never experience a huge boom. I hope it will but even if not, I will likely be around.
Thinking about entropia as a magazine it got quite many long term subscribers. Some have life time sub, some keep buying loose numbers etc.
Well think of it as you like but I like it this way.
Well run, I believe entropia can have a long life, even if it perhaps never experience a huge boom. I hope it will but even if not, I will likely be around.
i wish people woudl understand what they read before professing great insight, but hey, we can have everything. as billairboy has shown, sales roses only 2.3 million SEK and theres nothing in the "other income" income to account for an increase as there is clearly a ~11 m SEK drop. so the claim "You can see, in plain, straight numbers, that there is improvement of over 10 million dollars in revenue" is manifestly wrong. your subsequent follow up shows a stunning ability to cherry pick numbers to arrive a false conclusion.
looking properly through the numbers its clear that the improvment (reduction) in losses is from changes to expenses, but those expenses arent properly explained so its unclear if they where exceptional or the reduction is. (i believe they where exceptional cost in 2012, dont recall what though).
to claim that Calypso isnt Mindark's primary source of income is quite incredible when there is nothing in the numbers, notes or report to suggest where this revenue source is, i think we would have noticed. if there is another source of income buried in the net sales line, then Entropia platform is in an even worse shape, which is contrary to what you believe. MA isnt ever going to turn a profit from amortisation of the platform.
oh, and the graphs on Entropia Planets do not show what you think they show: the rising trend is % return against the average price the corresponding week. this would be mostly due to lowering CLD values, not increased weekly revenue, which is clearly trending downward.
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FauconIoji
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Yeah. My math was HORRIBLE. I looked at it and was like "oh. That looks like 10m. It was more like 17 @.@
Sorry about that. The number is on the bottom of page 14. for further clarification, it is the "net Profit" number and is exactly 17,686,125 SEK difference.
Right. Now we're making sense. Thanks.
What I study is (obviously) the payouts, which reflects Caplypso revenue, not the sales price of the CLD's, which only reflects what people are willing to pay for them (which seems to be the only graphs on the linked-to site - in-system market history). Those two numbers have pretty much no correlation.
Just for the record, I didn't intend to express neither pessimism nor optimism. It was just that the statement seemed to contradict data available, and as such I felt it prudent to question the claim. At the time of my initial comment, the claim referred to 2014 vs. 2013, which you now clarified should have been 2013 vs. 2012.
Anyway, let's come back to this in 8 months and see where it went.
Cheers!
Fixed. Sorry again about that. Good conversation though.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=revenue+definition
They actually aren't. Revenue is a pretty loose term, but is synonymous with profit. It is, ironically, also synonymous with sales. This is why I notated that the number was on the bottom of the page. "Net Profit" is roughly 17m better in 2013 than 2012. That's pretty much all there is to it.
As for the dollars and SEK thing, nomenclature doesn't mean that much to me when you could obviously tell my intention was to put SEK anyway, or else you wouldnt have pointed it out
If you knew what I meant to say, that's fine with me. 