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Question: Does letting a mob hit you affect returns?

Tycoon

Tycoon

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GenX000 Caveman Tycoon
Some mobs I can kill before they reach me if I walk/swim backwards while I fire...

It seems like I get better returns when I stand in front of them and let them hit me though...

Does it matter whether they hit you or not? or are my seemingly better returns to balance for armor/fap decay? :dunno:

maybe it's coincidence, or maybe it's all in my head?
 
I don't know the answer, but I've had a number of very experienced hunters tell me a sizeable % of armor decay is returned.
 
I prefer to take hits so I get some armor decay loss of hp. I've been grinding with powerful long range guns a lot ( mod mk2,mod ml++) and I've done enough backward walking taking no decay to realize that it doesn't do it.

I know the Eco guys will laugh off me and refer to some dev note but that's my humble opinion about it.
 
I remember having quite a great time loot-wise doing Traeskeron iron chain, while they hardly ever did reach me (except for ninjas perhaps).
 
minim said:
I prefer to take hits so I get some armor decay loss of hp. I've been grinding with powerful long range guns a lot ( mod mk2,mod ml++) and I've done enough backward walking taking no decay to realize that it doesn't do it.

I know the Eco guys will laugh off me and refer to some dev note but that's my humble opinion about it.
Click to expand...
I've noticed a vast difference between taking hits and not taking hits...

True, I have gotten some of my biggest HoFs not taking hits... but the vast majority of my experience is that my loot is better taking the hits...

I always attribute that to the difference in decay, but it doesn't seem to even out... not taking the hits feels much more "gambly" overall, with either much bigger losses, or gains (generally bigger losses, with the occasional large "lucky" gain)...

not to mention the lack of skill gain... still, I try my hand at no-hits until I feel I need to hunt something that will decay me to recover losses... sounds crazy, but that's EU for ya!

And even still, sometimes when my loot is bad on mobs that hit, I fall back on mobs that don't just to try to stretch my peds... and sometimes it pays off with a big HoF...

So hard to tell if taking the hits or not is what pays off or not... Loot works in mysterious ways! :wise:
 
Perhaps it parallels mining amps... since you spend more in decay per kill/bomb, the loot return has a stronger possibility of being larger. :cool:
 
I see a benefit in taking hits... gained skills, & armor/fap tiers (if using UL)

also, benefit in not taking hits... less decay costs...

question is, whether general returns % is = or not either way?... hard to say! :scratch2:
 
In my opinion there are some safeguards in this game against people who play 'stupid'.
So if you are using a very uneco gun or have a lot of armor decay then the game compensates you with a bit of extra loot.
Not enough extra loot to get the same return as normal players though, but is certainly noticable.
 
Harmony. said:
In my opinion there are some safeguards in this game against people who play 'stupid'.
So if you are using a very uneco gun or have a lot of armor decay then the game compensates you with a bit of extra loot.
Not enough extra loot to get the same return as normal players though, but is certainly noticable.
Click to expand...
well, I don't think hunting mobs that hit you is considered "playing stupid"... nor do I even think standing still to let mobs hit you that you could kill without being hit would be considered "playing stupid"...

my gun is maxed on SIB, and one of the most eco SIB guns at that! so that is really beside the point that this thread is aimed at! I don't even think the term "normal players" is really applicable in this comparison to hunting styles! maybe it is though? who's to say?!

damn loot dynamics! :scratch2:
 
That's one of my fav "conspiracy theories" as well.
I like to believe that is possible, but so far there is no proof to me.
When I focus to that I think quite the opposite is happening to me lol
But I have another "theory", that is related with the gear you have (weapon/amp/armor) and I found it related to the final result of my hunting logs. No 100% proved to that either.
I think those "conspiracy theories" are good and make you to be "on the edge" - sharp and it is funny also.
Τhere is a piece of truth in Harmony's post about that safety net of the game for those who playing without eco considetation!
But I disagree with that "unfortunate" comment! There is no "stupid" play in a game!
Playing the game might consider as a stupid action perhaps.
 
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Billy Jean Ruby said:
But I disagree with that "unfortunate" comment! There is no "stupid" play in a game!
Playing the game might consider as a stupid action perhaps.
Click to expand...

let's see:
-shooting a mob and not looting it
-weaing supremacy armor to hunt atrox with rocket launchers
-hunting araneatrox with tt weapons
-hunting 10 health mobs with 200 damage guns

maybe you wouln't call it stupid, but i wouldn't call it smart neither.
 
Harmony. said:
let's see:
-shooting a mob and not looting it
-weaing supremacy armor to hunt atrox with rocket launchers
-hunting araneatrox with tt weapons
-hunting 10 health mobs with 200 damage guns

maybe you wouln't call it stupid, but i wouldn't call it smart neither.
Click to expand...

A person with common sence (mental health) wouldn't do anything of the above,
because after 5' minutes it will be obvious something is going wrong.
But if someone like to spend, you couldn't call him "stupid" because of it.
As I say it is a game and in a game you play with efficiency or non-efficient, never "stupid".
That is a principle at least for me.

/OP Ark guns are Piron not Pirion, maybe you should correct it for someone who might dont know and get a mislead (btw great guns that I use too).
 
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I don't know if decay directly gives you better loot, my personal feeling is that is have no direct effect, but I hunt to little and don't keep track on my looting so what I think is not worth much. :silly2:

But, it's possible it have an indirect effect. If the loot comes from the area server you are on and the "loot-pool" on that server is "filled up" from the decay and ammo spent by players on the server, higher decay could have an indirect effect that makes the loot higher for you because you are filling up the loot-pool.
 
Hunting mobs without taking decay in theory should yield better returns then if you stand and take damage. At least this is what my logic dictates.

On the mobs which allow this I found out that it's different.

I think MA has a safeguard for this. It's very hard to distinguish between a real scenario and an exploiter so they probably consider this as an undesired hunting behavior. This means if you somehow discover a way to do it on a mob, you will soon be discouraged to do it because the returns will not be as expected.
 
if taking damage affect loot, this requires that each mob loot event is calculated on the very precise details of the immediate inputs. i.e. mob one you shoot before it gets to you and mob two you miss a few and it chews you a bit, each mob then calculates loot return seperately. every single mob calculating every single input to arrive at each loot output individually. doesnt seem entirely effifient or likely.

consider impact on loot of being swarmed. you'd get more loot on mobs when being swarmed and taking lots of hits. i think it would be pretty obvious difference if you measured returns on say atrox young killed at range and engaging 5x atrox young which you kill up close.

also, it would lead to the conclusion that loot returns would reflect decay. in which case, would it matter as you just get back in loot what you decay? getting swarmed or killing at range would have no affect at all on overall loot. of course, this could be the case with backend adjustments to personal loot return, so hiding the short term negative effects of mob hits by allow you to have a higher than typical return to compensate. (theories of whether assume 90% return are absolute over time, relative, or a baseline for loot return, can begin here...)
 
I think we have to look at what really happens, all we do are interactions with system that
create values, these values are used to build up loot.
If you shoot with a gun, taking hits from mobs, fap, scan or any similar action, you create
values that are used.
Some interactions produce better values, but my guess is that all kind of interactions
create at least some values for the loot calculation.
Just as with skillgain, some values might be reduced so it can't be abused or exploited,
when doing certain interactions for a certain amount of time.
 
Rave said:
Perhaps it parallels mining amps... since you spend more in decay per kill/bomb, the loot return has a stronger possibility of being larger. :cool:
Click to expand...

The basics of this game is exactly the same in mining/hunting/crafting if you look into it. There is no magic in higher return for higher input ^^ level 12 amps, crafting modified blueprints or hunting big cost-to-kill mobs isn't very far from each other if you think about it.
 
I make it a point to decay things because I see it directly in my returns.

Eco is misleading, and something I do not follow or even bother to care about....ever.
I will often go the uneco route on purpose.

Harmony. said:
let's see:
-shooting a mob and not looting it
-weaing supremacy armor to hunt atrox with rocket launchers
-hunting araneatrox with tt weapons
-hunting 10 health mobs with 200 damage guns

maybe you wouln't call it stupid, but i wouldn't call it smart neither.
Click to expand...

Not sure how many times you tried these "supposedly" dumb ideas... but,

Returns from deliberately wearing overkill armor and even killing mobs with overpowered weapons hasn't stopped me from doing either.


Keep in mind the entire game is one big formula. In order to have balance, loot distribution must happen. In order to comply with legalities, loot distribution must happen. MA takes a slice off the top of a self contained finite system, anything more and it would be quite clear to the auditors and all of our general returns. In order to comply with investigations from years ago, they had to prove somehow that this is a firm formula.


In short, all use(decay) must return some %(100%-MA cut(10%approx)=90%), split among skills which hold value and loot.
 
I think it is very simple to test. Just go with high-end armour to low level mobs and take a few hits before killing them. If cost of kill is 10 pec without armour, and defence cost is 30 pec, it should have a big affect on the loot.
 
Northberg said:
I think it is very simple to test. Just go with high-end armour to low level mobs and take a few hits before killing them. If cost of kill is 10 pec without armour, and defence cost is 30 pec, it should have a big affect on the loot.
Click to expand...

It's not that easy anymore. There's a idiot-cap to it now.
 
Northberg said:
I think it is very simple to test. Just go with high-end armour to low level mobs and take a few hits before killing them. If cost of kill is 10 pec without armour, and defence cost is 30 pec, it should have a big affect on the loot.
Click to expand...

I was thinking something more like 10K cycled on Prots without being hit, then 10K cycled on Prots standing still...

I don't log my hunts though, and I don't even really follow other players logs closely, or look too deep into the best way to track a loot trend like this...

For the most part, I just kinda wing it and feel it out, go on instinct and trust my gut! :lolup:
 
billairboy said:
I don't know if decay directly gives you better loot, my personal feeling is that is have no direct effect, but I hunt to little and don't keep track on my looting so what I think is not worth much. :silly2:

But, it's possible it have an indirect effect. If the loot comes from the area server you are on and the "loot-pool" on that server is "filled up" from the decay and ammo spent by players on the server, higher decay could have an indirect effect that makes the loot higher for you because you are filling up the loot-pool.
Click to expand...

Sorry I'm a new player. But what is this "loot pool" you refer to? Are their any references made by mind ark regarding this or testing to prove this is the case.

I've assumed that each mob kill is a mutually exclusive event that would give the same chance off loot at any time of day in any location.

If this is not the case I need to know, as it would change the whole game and how you target mobs to hunt.
 
Starbuckx said:
Sorry I'm a new player. But what is this "loot pool" you refer to? Are their any references made by mind ark regarding this or testing to prove this is the case.

I've assumed that each mob kill is a mutually exclusive event that would give the same chance off loot at any time of day in any location.

If this is not the case I need to know, as it would change the whole game and how you target mobs to hunt.
Click to expand...

Loot is a mystery!

if you figure it out, let us all know! :yup:

(here's some reading or ya)...
'Loot Theories' section of forums
 
I don't see why it would make a difference whether the mob hits you or not. To my knowledge, armor decay has never (objectively) been shown to affect loot.

We can't be objective about this because whenever we get a lot of armor decay, we also tend to get bigger hofs. Thus in our mind, a big armor bill makes a difference. But this, of course, is merely because bigger, meaner mobs Hof better than little ones we can kill without armor. It doesn't have anything to do with the armor, per se.
 
Neil Stockton said:
We can't be objective about this because whenever we get a lot of armor decay, we also tend to get bigger hofs. Thus in our mind, a big armor bill makes a difference. But this, of course, is merely because bigger, meaner mobs Hof better than little ones we can kill without armor. It doesn't have anything to do with the armor, per se.
Click to expand...

I get what you mean... basically decay is accounted for in loot... more decay 'appears' to yield more loot, but really it's payback that might break even with a non-decaying hunting style...

but, by that logic, seems one could make the argument that using decay to inspire HoFs could increase the odds of getting a really fat one! More HoFs you get, more likely one of them is going to be bigger than the others?

maybe, maybe not? :scratch2:
 
Tycoon said:
I get what you mean... basically decay is accounted for in loot... more decay 'appears' to yield more loot, but really it's payback that might break even with a non-decaying hunting style...

but, by that logic, seems one could make the argument that using decay to inspire HoFs could increase the odds of getting a really fat one! More HoFs you get, more likely one of them is going to be bigger than the others?

maybe, maybe not? :scratch2:
Click to expand...


What about the following:

skills gains are dependent on the decay attributed to that activity.

You spend more PED to kill a bigger mob and it will in average generate more overall skills (and I mean it can be hidden parameters not the actual skills that you have acess when pressing K), so the loot of that mob will be larger that from a smaller mob.


In some activities you can gain skills without spending PED (defense and sweat gathering)

Since you accumulate those skills it would be fair that further along the line such progress to be paid back.


But the defense skill gains is small,

to give you an idea geting hit 200 times by a L60 mob will usuall grant you with an increase on the tt value of your skills of arround 20 pec (~5 pec evade + 15pec of others related)

I can accept that such ammount would be enough to pay the defense cost if you are using a Mod FAP and no armor, using a "regular armor" I assume that the payback process must be a little different from the above
 
Tycoon said:
I get what you mean... basically decay is accounted for in loot... more decay 'appears' to yield more loot, but really it's payback that might break even with a non-decaying hunting style...

but, by that logic, seems one could make the argument that using decay to inspire HoFs could increase the odds of getting a really fat one! More HoFs you get, more likely one of them is going to be bigger than the others?

maybe, maybe not? :scratch2:
Click to expand...

Nah, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. Armor decay is NOT returned to you in loot, but it just SEEMS that way because when you hunt big aggressive mobs with armor, it's more exciting than when you hunt small mobs naked. It's not about the armor at all, it's about the mob, it's levels, and the damage you do to it that determines your loot. If your armor decay is 30% of your cost, you'll be getting (long term) 30% less TT value loot than someone else hunting naked. I haven't done a proper test though, so this is just theory based on logic.

Armor costs (for the kind of people who keep logs!) are rarely more than 5-10%, so it's not going to be easy to see any effect armor decay might give. That's why the first place to look would be on small mobs like punies... if you can get 50% of your cost in armor decay you'd have a better chance of seeing an effect.

A proper test, I would say, would be to use a coin toss to decide whether or not you're going to wear armor for that mob, then record the value of each individual loot (probably want to record the items & their TT for each). You'd probably want to record the armor decay for each mob too, and skill gains while you're at it. Then analyse the two groups of results to see if there's any difference. Not sure how many mobs you'd need to kill to see a difference, if one exists (it would depend on the magnitude of the effect).
 
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Neil Stockton said:
Nah, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. Armor decay is NOT returned to you in loot, but it just SEEMS that way because when you hunt big aggressive mobs with armor, it's more exciting than when you hunt small mobs naked. It's not about the armor at all, it's about the mob, it's levels, and the damage you do to it that determines your loot. If your armor decay is 30% of your cost, you'll be getting (long term) 30% less TT value loot than someone else hunting naked. I haven't done a proper test though, so this is just theory based on logic.
Click to expand...
maybe I did misunderstand you... and maybe I'm misunderstanding the quote above as well...

not really talking about the difference between shooting punies in no armor vs. big mobs that require armor... talking mainly about big mobs, and the differences between the methods of killing a particular mob, standing still and taking hits while killing it vs. moving backwards and killing it before it reaches you (Prots, Levi, Osseo, Malcs, Spiders, etc.)

I've hunted enough Prots & Levi in armor letting them hit me, and in no armor walking/swimming backwards killing them before they reach me, to know that defense decays are not straight loss in the long run (no tests needed for that)! That's not really the question, this thread is more about the following phenomena...
minim said:
I prefer to take hits so I get some armor decay loss of hp. I've been grinding with powerful long range guns a lot ( mod mk2,mod ml++) and I've done enough backward walking taking no decay to realize that it doesn't do it.

I know the Eco guys will laugh off me and refer to some dev note but that's my humble opinion about it.
Click to expand...
Harmony. said:
In my opinion there are some safeguards in this game against people who play 'stupid'.
So if you are using a very uneco gun or have a lot of armor decay then the game compensates you with a bit of extra loot.
Not enough extra loot to get the same return as normal players though, but is certainly noticable.
Click to expand...
Are there safeguards in the loot distribution system to discourage using no-defense-decay hunting styles long term?

To me... using such a method feels like it holds up for only so long before the loot starts getting cold... it feels like when you're shooting a mob that's stuck until it finally goes unreachable... like the loot goes unreachable until you take some hits, earn back that right to loot!...

Then again, sometimes it's not like that... but that's 'sometimes'!

wish there was a sure-fire way to test it, and someone willing to do it! :sniper:
 
Can't you run the following test.

Kill 10k Creatures of the same maturity without armor, check loot which should be averaged out after 10k mobs

Kill 10k of the same Creatures with armor, check the loot which should be averaged out after 10k mobs

The two tests should be

  • In the same location, to ensure there are no differences in loot in different areas. I'm not sure if this is true at all, but as its not known (by me at least) it needs to be eliminated.
  • Ensure the armor blocks as much dmg as possible, this should make any effect more noticeable.
  • Hunt in an area where you are alone, avoid any possible shared pools if they exists...again would be nice to know if this is true or now.
  • Obviously use exactly the same weapons.
  • Any others?

I think this is one of many fundamental questions in hunting that should be known. As a community we need to determine this if MA won't tell us. Personally I feel they should layout general principles such as this.

Is armor in the game to just let you hunt higher level mobs, in the hope to get better items dropping.

or

Is armor in the game to add to the stakes of the gamble. Assuming it pays out the same amount of loots as dealing dmg to mobs.

If the later were true I for one would always look to max my armor....it would be like a side bet. But I'd want proof that the odds were the same as killing the mobs.

If this isn't true then I would probably use armor rarely.
 
letting mob hit you affects skill gains if you fap. :)
 
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