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Discussion: The price of range

Hypnotyk

Hypnotyk

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As many of you know, I am in the market for an UL SIB weapon. Having surveyed the market, I am finding it rather interesting and am quite shocked by the price difference between equivalent weapons (in terms of eco/dps) when they are a rifle vs handgun.

A typical example can be the spirit MK 1 (lvl 35 SIB blp rifle) vs enigma L2(Level 33 SIB blp handgun) both equipped with a dante amp and no enhancers. Although these guns are a bit different, I find these two guns to be very close to each other in terms of eco/dps/SIB level.

GunECODPSRange
CalyTrek CR Spirit MK.I2.94754.9472.6
Emik Enigma L22.93756.0238.5

As you can see, the spirit MK1 is without a doubt a better weapon from a range and eco (not by that much) standpoint, but falls short in the DPS when comparing against an enigma L2. However when you look at prices, you will see that the spirit MK I starts around 17k for a tier 0 and an enigma L2 would probably fetch somewhere in the price range of 9k. So what I really want to know is this.. does the 34.1 meters (188% increase of range from enigma L2) really valued at 8k price difference? Of course the price values are subjective (I am using what I remember from sales threads and previously owning an L2/shopped for an spirit mkI before), but this trend seems to hold true.

Even when looking at guns such as the Vincent DPS LR 37 TEN EDITION or other rifles, their pistol counterparts (or close competitors in dps/eco) are substantially cheaper in price. Is range really worth that much? I mean how many shots can you get in on average using a rifle before the mob is in pistol range or hitting you? How long would it take to make back the saved peds of less armor/fap decay?

Just curious as I find the prices difference to be large, so I wanted to see what others thought. Range may not be the only factor at play here.. maybe there are just more rifle hunters than pistoleers... I know that is the case as to why melee is so cheap (very small population of players whom are dedicated solely to melee as far as I know).

Anywho, looking forward to your response(s)!

Cheers.
-Hyp
 
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Well the increased eco duo to getting hit less is one thing. There is also the hidden increased DPS due to spending less time between mobs. With a short range weapon you have to tag, then switch to your main weapon. With enough range and the right spawn you never need to switch weapons or even stop shooting.

This is coming from a mainly melee hunter. There are definitely benefits to having range, especially in team hunts. Even if I have twice your dps on paper, if I spend lots of time between mobs, its seriously limited.
 
Hijacker27 said:
Well the increased eco duo to getting hit less is one thing. There is also the hidden increased DPS due to spending less time between mobs. With a short range weapon you have to tag, then switch to your main weapon. With enough range and the right spawn you never need to switch weapons or even stop shooting.

This is coming from a mainly melee hunter. There are definitely benefits to having range, especially in team hunts. Even if I have twice your dps on paper, if I spend lots of time between mobs, its seriously limited.
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True, I never thought of the increased 'hidden' DPS due to not having to run around as much with a rifle vs melee/hg. I guess I am so used to it by now since I've used HG for most of my EU career :p That being said, would you agree that the price difference is in-line with these benefits? Or do you find them to be a bit too high/low?

Edit: Come to think of it, I realized this is why I hate hunting Big Bulks with a large amount of people with my ranked scorpion. My range sucked compared to others. The mob was halfway or close to half dead by the time I ran up to it with my ranked scorp..
 
Personally i would make three range categries: 0-40m, 40-70m, 70-...m

From my hunting experience having +70m range means you have zero or almost zero (0.1%) heal/armor costs.

While having <40m range means you have minimum 1% and usually around 2-3% heal/armor costs.

If you cycle 200k peds yearly this means you will save roughly 4k peds on armor/heal costs.

Now consider this: 4k peds during 1 year equal to having about 17 CLDs wort roughly 23k peds. So paying +10k for exactly same weapon but with 50m more range is definelty worth the saveings.

Falagor
:bandit:
 
Falagor said:
Personally i would make three range categries: 0-40m, 40-70m, 70-...m

From my hunting experience having +70m range means you have zero or almost zero (0.1%) heal/armor costs.

While having <40m range means you have minimum 1% and usually around 2-3% heal/armor costs.

If you cycle 200k peds yearly this means you will save roughly 4k peds on armor/heal costs.

Now consider this: 4k peds during 1 year equal to having about 17 CLDs wort roughly 23k peds. So paying +10k for exactly same weapon but with 50m more range is definelty worth the saveings.

Falagor
:bandit:
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Another good observation, but I guess I don't really agree with the CLD revenue comparison. You only save 4K ped, so the difference is really 4K. I understand you are trying to show the amount of CLD needed to passively make that money back and the cost of said CLDs, but really it is a 4k ped difference in the end. However, its 4k every year assuming you only cycle 200K ped a year every year. It can be higher or lower of course, depending on how much you hunt :)
 
I think the gigantic price difference comes from the current status of the armor market.

As you have probably noticed anything bigger than Gremlin/Ghost/Jarhead jumps in price to a point where the majority of the population just sticks to them and doesn't even consider upgrading armor. Not even going to some mid-uber (L) set. Price is high, and so are the repair bills.

In that situation the range is even more important than it is normally, more range means more eco, more dps and also a wider variety of what you can hunt for those with shitty armor.

I would like to see the total number of armor sets with an average imp/cut/stb protection below 18 versus those above 18. I bet it's some ridiculous ratio like 1.000 to 1.

The same applies to the fap market, but that one is being slowly fixed by MA :)
 
Angel O2 Mercer said:
I think the gigantic price difference comes from the current status of the armor market.

As you have probably noticed anything bigger than Gremlin/Ghost/Jarhead jumps in price to a point where the majority of the population just sticks to them and doesn't even consider upgrading armor. Not even going to some mid-uber (L) set. Price is high, and so are the repair bills.

In that situation the range is even more important than it is normally, more range means more eco, more dps and also a wider variety of what you can hunt for those with shitty armor.

I would like to see the total number of armor sets with an average imp/cut/stb protection below 18 versus those above 18. I bet it's some ridiculous ratio like 1.000 to 1.

The same applies to the fap market, but that one is being slowly fixed by MA :)
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Great observation!
I recently sold my liakon set and went to Jarhead because of it's better price point because it is very similar in protection for a fraction of the cost. I wanted to move to angel/tiger/dune rider but paying over 20k for an armor is not something I want to do.. I'd rather buy a gun as I'm doing now. I think that definitely has something to do in the price difference, but I can't imagine that being the only driver in this drastic price difference..
 
GunECODPSRange
CalyTrek CR Spirit MK.I2.94754.9472.6
Emik Enigma L22.93756.0238.5
Ranked Combat Knife + IV amp2.92654.334

This is one reason the jump between handgun and rifle has gotten bigger, its not the rifle that has increased in price, its the handgun that has been falling, due to the introduction of melee amps, taking some of the users who would have bought handguns from the potential market.

The knife + amp example i used could be bought for below 5k, wich indeed steals a few buyers from handgun market.
 
ermik said:
GunECODPSRange
CalyTrek CR Spirit MK.I2.94754.9472.6
Emik Enigma L22.93756.0238.5
Ranked Combat Knife + IV amp2.92654.334

This is one reason the jump between handgun and rifle has gotten bigger, its not the rifle that has increased in price, its the handgun that has been falling, due to the introduction of melee amps, taking some of the users who would have bought handguns from the potential market.

The knife + amp example i used could be bought for below 5k, wich indeed steals a few buyers from handgun market.
Click to expand...

This is true, but this assumes the player has the same skill level in melee and ranged weapons. Rifle and HG share many skills whereas ranged and melee only share a few. So swapping between the two ranged weapons rifle <-> hg is typically easier than ranged <-> melee IMO.
 
Hypnotyk said:
This is true, but this assumes the player has the same skill level in melee and ranged weapons. Rifle and HG share many skills whereas ranged and melee only share a few. So swapping between the two ranged weapons rifle <-> hg is typically easier than ranged <-> melee IMO.
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Ofc, this is just a matter of time though, when melee is a real proffession the skills will build.

SIB on the knife in the example is 35, thats why i choose it :)
 
ermik said:
Ofc, this is just a matter of time though, when melee is a real proffession the skills will build.

SIB on the knife in the example is 35, thats why i choose it :)
Click to expand...

Yep yep, even I am enticed to go the melee route myself now.. much higher cost savings and allows me to have more liquid ped. I already own a tier 3 mace mk II and I drool about being able to use and own a mk V for about 10k ped.. the dps and eco on that mace alone surpasses any gun I've owned today at half the price. It's just the climb in skills that is stopping me today :S
 
Hypnotyk said:
Yep yep, even I am enticed to go the melee route myself now.. much higher cost savings and allows me to have more liquid ped. I already own a tier 3 mace mk II and I drool about being able to use and own a mk V for about 10k ped.. the dps and eco on that mace alone surpasses any gun I've owned today at half the price. It's just the climb in skills that is stopping me today :S
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Don't ignore the power and comfort of range, that's the point of this thread. I moved to melee after all the fuzz and propaganda with the new melee amps and it was bad, really bad. At least if you are used to having a decent range that's what I can tell you.

Melee weapons didn't boom, and melee amps keep falling in price. I wonder why :)
 
Angel O2 Mercer said:
Don't ignore the power and comfort of range, that's the point of this thread. I moved to melee after all the fuzz and propaganda with the new melee amps and it was bad, really bad. At least if you are used to having a decent range that's what I can tell you.

Melee weapons didn't boom, and melee amps keep falling in price. I wonder why :)
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melee amps falling in price because of the huge influx of melee amps hitting the market now after MM. I was stupid and bought a trauma amp IV and am paying the price for it. But I don't think people are losing faith in melee.. especially not nowadays.

However, I do enjoy the slight benefit of range that I get with my handgun. However.. I am used to short range combat, so shifting to melee won't be that big of a difference for me. I will still be tagging with my Imp ARR8k rifle.
 
The difference is because it brings with it opportunities, convenience and improved eco ( for the eco fags)

This comparison between melee vs handguns vs rifles is a question i get asked every other day.

Its really simple if u think of it

Melee : +ve : Good dps at cheap price. Works great for people hunting much below there professional level as then your defense cost is not high. Also works great if you are gaming on a budget.

-ve : Can't participate in team hunts or shared event spawns under most circumstances. Is a pain in ass to switch/wait and hunt , lowers turnover significantly and for those like me who hunt mostly above my level, it simply becomes too expensive in defense cost.


Handgun : +ve : Avg dps at avg cost with avg benefits ( Holds true for mid level gear). The comparison u made between calytrek MKI vs enigma L2 or similarly between asi ten and calytrek mk.II ten. The handgun is much cheaper at same or near dps and eco. The other very often ignored point is that long term plans. Some people would like to aim for mod merc/xanthi/mod rip and as such skilling with a handgun makes it much easier for them then a rifle.

-ve : Depending on mob, you might find yourself in aggro range of the mob in which case u need tagger. In shared spawns depending on speed of mob and the spread of the crowd, it can be a pain in the ass to hunt. Your defense cost will be higher compared to rifle but of course much better then melee. The defense cost variation will be neglible for mobs like (atrax) and much higher for those like proteron. Overall, it occupies a space between melee and rifles.

Rifles : +ve : Best eco ( in terms of totality of it and not just dpp) with biggest convenience.

-ve : Price is highest , all good things in life are expensive. Also, if u'r long term plan is to mod merc/xanthi/mod rip for the dps this will take a bit longer.


Eventually its a tradeoff between affordability, eco and convenience. Melee is gr8 for a secondary weapon to skill hp etc, but personally i cant think of keeping it as main weapon based on how i hunt. I do want to max mod merc someday, so i do use handguns but my heart is with rifles. However, if on a budget, I would go with pistol these days compared to rifle simply because the difference between the prices might not be justified for a mid level user.
 
Divinity said:
The difference is because it brings with it opportunities, convenience and improved eco ( for the eco fags)

This comparison between melee vs handguns vs rifles is a question i get asked every other day.

Its really simple if u think of it

Melee : +ve : Good dps at cheap price. Works great for people hunting much below there professional level as then your defense cost is not high. Also works great if you are gaming on a budget.

-ve : Can't participate in team hunts or shared event spawns under most circumstances. Is a pain in ass to switch/wait and hunt , lowers turnover significantly and for those like me who hunt mostly above my level, it simply becomes too expensive in defense cost.


Handgun : +ve : Avg dps at avg cost with avg benefits ( Holds true for mid level gear). The comparison u made between calytrek MKI vs enigma L2 or similarly between asi ten and calytrek mk.II ten. The handgun is much cheaper at same or near dps and eco. The other very often ignored point is that long term plans. Some people would like to aim for mod merc/xanthi/mod rip and as such skilling with a handgun makes it much easier for them then a rifle.

-ve : Depending on mob, you might find yourself in aggro range of the mob in which case u need tagger. In shared spawns depending on speed of mob and the spread of the crowd, it can be a pain in the ass to hunt. Your defense cost will be higher compared to rifle but of course much better then melee. The defense cost variation will be neglible for mobs like (atrax) and much higher for those like proteron. Overall, it occupies a space between melee and rifles.

Rifles : +ve : Best eco ( in terms of totality of it and not just dpp) with biggest convenience.

-ve : Price is highest , all good things in life are expensive. Also, if u'r long term plan is to mod merc/xanthi/mod rip for the dps this will take a bit longer.


Eventually its a tradeoff between affordability, eco and convenience. Melee is gr8 for a secondary weapon to skill hp etc, but personally i cant think of keeping it as main weapon based on how i hunt. I do want to max mod merc someday, so i do use handguns but my heart is with rifles. However, if on a budget, I would go with pistol these days compared to rifle simply because the difference between the prices might not be justified for a mid level user.
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Awesome answer. and I agree with pretty much everything you said... I guess since I've hunted with HG for so long I rarely think/see the other benefits that rifles can bring. However, I guess will still stick to my HGs simply because I can't shell out the extra PED for a lower DPS weapon.. I'm a DPS fag and I'll pay for the extra costs if I have to dammit! :p

That being said, I still want your ASI TEN, but can't afford it :( I can however, order you a pizza to convince you to lower your price haha
 
Excellent thread with some very good points. For my first year I primarily hunted with (L) BLP Rifles, but the cost really started to catch up as I gained levels. It is simply far cheaper for me to cycle through (L) Pistols. Of course I only hunt on Arkadia where the mobs get within striking distance after a shot or two (with rifle at range) anyway, making the PED saved on pistols worth the small increase in defensive costs.

Of course I am a glass half full hunter. Damage to my armor allows me to tier it and damage to my avatar just gains me skill levels in bioregenesis! :D
 
Arch Angel said:
Of course I am a glass half full hunter. Damage to my armor allows me to tier it and damage to my avatar just gains me skill levels in bioregenesis! :D
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Thank you for your kind words and glad you're enjoying the thread as I am! I'm quoting your last point because that is pretty much my mentality when it comes to hunting (although it has changed slightly after this thread). I always see that the few extra shots from a rifle that save me those few pecs on defense costs will take forever to cover the cost difference in rifle/hg. However, after reading these posts I have learned that there are other factors that favor rifle such as the increased TRUE dps on a mob (because you can shoot from a farther distance) along with other things that I am not going to repeat. But in the end, I am just a senile person it seems as I love HG no matter what.

In my mind.. Are Rifles better than HG?
tumblr_myjh9pI1Sd1rsa6iwo2_500.gif
 
Long range, IMO is for people who either lack or are unwilling to obtain stronger/better armor or heal devices.
 
sidxx said:
Long range, IMO is for people who either lack or are unwilling to obtain stronger/better armor or heal devices.
Click to expand...

that or not enough HP to take some hits :p
 
Range is overrated. For fast mobs range is almost useless.

Handguns are like melee but little more range. But way cheaper than rifles.

Melee is underrated considering how cheap one can get UL sib at 50+ dps below 3k ped.

Melee can be adapted, you are not forced to only use melee. You can use a tagger, pre dmg gun and so on.

If you hunt at or below your evader lvl you can do melee np as long as you use a tagger. And have below 3% defense cost. If you hunt above your evader lvl (which I don't recommend to anyone unless slow mob). You will need pre dmg gun ofc.

Remember that it ain't your skills that decides what your hunt. But your PED CARD.

1k ped budget and you hunt aurli's at cp. Don't blame MA when your peds are gone the next day.
 
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Sub-Zero said:
Range is overrated. For fast mobs range is almost useless.

Handguns are like melee but little more range. But way cheaper than rifles.

Melee is underrated considering how cheap one can get UL sib at 50+ dps below 3k ped.

Melee can be adapted, you are not forced to only use melee. You can use a tagger, pre dmg gun and so on.

If you hunt at or below your evader lvl you can do melee np as long as you use a tagger. And have below 3% defense cost. If you hunt above your evader lvl (which I don't recommend to anyone unless slow mob). You will need pre dmg gun ofc.

Remember that it ain't your skills that decides what your hunt. But your PED CARD.

1k ped budget and you hunt aurli's at cp. Don't blame MA when your peds are gone the next day.
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Yea I hear ya.. I'm really considering the change over to melee.. my cousin is in the same dps range with his zero-three E.L.M. as I am with my mace mk II + trauma IV. We can team hunt quite a bit with this combo and it will allow me to grow in hp and club skills till I can eventually take on bigger mobs with more hp/evade and a bigger mace..

I found the mace mk II + trauma IV to be a nice combo on small aliens in CP when using imp ARR8k to tag.
 
Hypnotyk said:
Yea I hear ya.. I'm really considering the change over to melee.. my cousin is in the same dps range with his zero-three E.L.M. as I am with my mace mk II + trauma IV. We can team hunt quite a bit with this combo and it will allow me to grow in hp and club skills till I can eventually take on bigger mobs with more hp/evade and a bigger mace..

I found the mace mk II + trauma IV to be a nice combo on small aliens in CP when using imp ARR8k to tag.
Click to expand...

Personally I like shortblades, since it has faster attacks and lower dmg thus less overkill and rarely need finisher depending on mob you hunting.

My current setup is Manta K-5 Smuggler + Trauma IV which gives me 50 dps and 2.944 dpp and maxed at lvl 26. I'll use it most likely till i can use songkra dagger at least or maybe even till i can get myself arcspark.
 
The low relative price of melee plus the HP gains I get from skilling it are why I chose melee

Mid tier ArcSpark + Trauma VI = 17K-18K / ~100 DPS

Mid tier Calytrek MkII TEN Edition + Dante = 41K to 43K / ~100 DPS
 
bump to hopefully inspire more discussion :)
 
If you can find a mob/range weapon setup that means no armor decay, then you can use earth shocker armor for extra eco and not get it decayed. Plus you can then add accuracy enhancers and get 60% extra crit damage from them, making the enhancers far cheaper. Range also has the crit scope and sights, which can't be added to a melee weapon. Therefore, when it comes to buffing up a hunting setup, range has more options, and the ability to be more efficient with those buffs.
 
There are pro's and con's both. What you should consider is what level are you at? I like hunting proteron, levi, etc, and they are slow. Having range adds a whole lot more dps than it would, say, aurli. And, these mobs do high lvl dmg. I'm biased, I love using range weapons, and after grinding protes, it's hard for me to consider going to anything else. Especially having a long range UL SIB gun that you can tier. Adding more range (if hunting weaker mobs) instead of damage would increase the benefit of not getting touched.

I also like the piece of mind during shared events. My gun isn't a high end uber gun, but I start shooting before many others (its funny seeing handguns at these events, running to and fro trying to do dmg).

I've tried the handgun (skilling up in the past) and melee (recently with amps) and I don't care much for either. Range is the way to go for me :wtg:.
 
i had a good think and went the pistol route

not really got many regrets but i used to hunt on auto (select next mob/auto tool) and having a pistol i wander into spawns quite a lot. its not too much of a prob but does raise the old armor cost and really slows down my shooting

I started off being a dps junkie, i kinda think there are a few benefits to having a high cost/click, but thats another story :) but now i am much more into the effective dps, for example the thorio hats i dislike, i take a couple more heavy hits and spend more time fapping and thus lowering my overall dps.

I guess the real change to my hunting is how i now try to manoeuvre around the fields ... like chess u gotta think a couple of mobs ahead ;)
 
TheLastKnight said:
There are pro's and con's both. What you should consider is what level are you at? I like hunting proteron, levi, etc, and they are slow. Having range adds a whole lot more dps than it would, say, aurli. And, these mobs do high lvl dmg. I'm biased, I love using range weapons, and after grinding protes, it's hard for me to consider going to anything else. Especially having a long range UL SIB gun that you can tier. Adding more range (if hunting weaker mobs) instead of damage would increase the benefit of not getting touched.

I also like the piece of mind during shared events. My gun isn't a high end uber gun, but I start shooting before many others (its funny seeing handguns at these events, running to and fro trying to do dmg).

I've tried the handgun (skilling up in the past) and melee (recently with amps) and I don't care much for either. Range is the way to go for me :wtg:.
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Luckily prot are slow in both attack and movement speed so I do OK with hg on those.. Levi's however are a whole other story. I need a fapper to keep me up on those because not only do they hit hard as hell, they hit often and quickly too.. What gun do you use?


Lighterthief said:
i had a good think and went the pistol route

not really got many regrets but i used to hunt on auto (select next mob/auto tool) and having a pistol i wander into spawns quite a lot. its not too much of a prob but does raise the old armor cost and really slows down my shooting

I started off being a dps junkie, i kinda think there are a few benefits to having a high cost/click, but thats another story :) but now i am much more into the effective dps, for example the thorio hats i dislike, i take a couple more heavy hits and spend more time fapping and thus lowering my overall dps.

I guess the real change to my hunting is how i now try to manoeuvre around the fields ... like chess u gotta think a couple of mobs ahead ;)
Click to expand...

DPS junkie... I say you and I are the same type of people, my friend.
 
Hypnotyk said:
Luckily prot are slow in both attack and movement speed so I do OK with hg on those.. Levi's however are a whole other story. I need a fapper to keep me up on those because not only do they hit hard as hell, they hit often and quickly too.. What gun do you use?
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I used to use L guns, back in the day I used the LR guns, 53/59/63 etc. Recently it was LC-60 or M83 predator L, but I bought myself the Ozpyn H1X1. It not by any means a high end gun, but it's T6 and comparable to the guns mentioned above without the L MU, and I can untier to hunt smaller mobs from range.
 
TheLastKnight said:
I used to use L guns, back in the day I used the LR guns, 53/59/63 etc. Recently it was LC-60 or M83 predator L, but I bought myself the Ozpyn H1X1. It not by any means a high end gun, but it's T6 and comparable to the guns mentioned above without the L MU, and I can untier to hunt smaller mobs from range.
Click to expand...

oz.jpg


With MU.
 
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