I fear for the Survival of EU.

CozMoDan

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Herco Coz Mann
Before I start let me say this is not a whine or gripe or anything like that and I hope I can explain well enough so it doesn't sound like that. It is a honest fear.

Also let me say that of all the games I have played over the years (The first one I played was two space ship looking blips on a green screen around 1984) this is the very best, period. From interaction among players to graphics to the game play it is just the best ever for me. I have had the most fun and the frustration in the game. It is the game I love and love to hate(at times):). I am over 65 years old and once played 28 hours straight to finish a mission when the missions first came out. I am retired and this my fun, no wife and kids all grown and gone. I play it every day and have from 2007 (less about 1 year when I really got frustrated).

What got me to thinking this way is crafting most and mining somewhat also. I noticed the 51K HOF(maybe an ATH but didn't check) on a level II finder amp light and did some investigating. I looked at the crafting cost of the amp and, according to EP it was around 8 ped. I then looked at the top 100 crafters and the top one was over 7M ped, like in million. Now when a person crafts a 50 ped amp you do not get an amp worth 51K, you get tailings like the metal residue. You can sell them on the AU or just TT them but whatever you do the least you will get is 51K. This ped is paid by EU not another player if you TT them. You could also sell the amp at the TT if you wanted to. You use a BP that is UL and does not need to be repaired so basically EU gets nothing from you other than the cost of the ingredients, but those probably come from other players mostly except the survey probes and they are only 3 ped.

So lets compare crafting and mining to a lesser extent, to hunting. According to MA they make there money from decay only. Now correct me if I am wrong but I see little, if any, decay from crafters. The only decay I see is from the products they sell, like the amps if they are sold to other players. Likewise, to a lesser extent the same is true for miners. They have probes they must buy from MA and the amps and finders from the crafters but what I see is that most of the decay comes from hunter's weapons, armor, enhancers and amps. I think there is more decay for hunters than either of the other two professions. Moreover if you compare the top 100 hunters they are around half of the PED of the top 100 crafters. The top hunter is over 4M with the crafter the total is over 7M.

Here is the point I am trying to make. I do not think EU can survive without hunters and (this may sound like a whine or gripe but it really isn't) when was the last time, if ever, you saw a 50K HOF/ATH on a mob the cost 8 ped to kill. Even a 25K HOF ? But how many of them have you seen in crafting or mining(using 8 ped in cost or a single probe) get one? Quite a few. I looked up a miner that got a 88K (as I recall) and I didn't see another anything from him to speak of and as near as I could tell he took the money and ran. If a hunter gets 88K he buys equipment and guess what, it will not buy all the top equipment he would want. I am not sure you could spend 88K on crafting or mining equipment.

I love to hunt and crafting, to me, is just boring. But I am not in it for the money just the fun and hunting is the fun to me. I must say I would like to make enough from hunting to play for free but I really don't mind a depo, just not every other day :).

Here is what I am afraid of. When a new player comes in to the game and if he watches the globals/HOFs/ATHs I think he will see a lot more in the crafting and mining than in hunting. Moreover, to me and others on my FL, that have commented, it is depressing or madding, if you will, when you are busting you butt hunting and see a 51K crafting HOF when you can't even get a 100 ped global.

I know (or think I do) that it all has to do with the loot pools in the different professions and I know that crafters have a huge loot pool, of that I am sure, and that is why the get the nice ones. However how long will this game last if everyone was a crafter with no one to buy their products other than the TT ? I truly think it would end the game for the simple fact that, if what MA says it true about making money from decay only, there is not enough decay from crafters to fund this game.

I hope this all makes sense. I would prefer no bashing but if you must, I will not respond unless it makes sense and I really do hope someone can squelch my fears but just saying we will always have hunters won't do it.
 
If you craft on full condition you pretty much raise your bet 8x. The 8 PED amp turns to the equivalent of a 64 PED per click BP that is run on quantity, but with much lower successes.

Most likely it was someone gambling who hit the jackpot. To compare, this would be equal to killing 64 PED mobs or go mine indoors with a terra amp 9, but doing both with a horrible hit rate.

Unless I am mistaken and it was a quantity crafter.
 
Forget about MA making peds from decay only, it's an old myth and it's BS.

As for an 8ped click getting 50k, if he's on condition then he's averaging about 15 total losses between successes. Hunters don't get no loot 15 times in a row from an 8ped kill. Same goes for mining in foma/UG/hell, average of 15 no loots in a row before a hit (note. 15 is not scientific, just a number i pulled out of air)

It's true that a hunters gear will often be worth more than a miner or crafte but these guys still have things to spend peds on. A crafter could spend 100kped on blueprints and still be missing spots in his books. He'll probably want at least one shop too, which may go for up to 30kped. A miner will want a good driller (10kped) a U amp would be cool (anywhere from 10k to 300k or more)

So tbh, I'm not seeing where your complaint is. I'd like to see some bigger hof for hunters but it looks like they ironed them out so those massive shared mobs didn't give 10 million and bankupt them.
 
You've made a bit of a flaw in your train of thought. You've assumed that each craft is a success and each mining drop succeeds, but this isn't the case. Often probes are dropped and bp's are clicked and nothing is gained but the costs are swallowed. This is where mining and crafting 'decay' comes from, and trust me, sometimes a lot of peds are swallowed up in this way.
 
200000Ped Zombie Kong two days ago.

Don't stress about hunting. Generally a few 3000-4000PED HOFs every day from different planets. You have to target the right mob.
 
Crafting have condition bar which is not in hunting and mining..tahts why u cant simply say it was just 8 peds. Each crafting sucess is many lost attempts as soon as u just touch condition bar.

As for hunting indeed i liked more when there was 20 K trox every week rather than 200K kong every year
 
According to MA they make there money from decay only.
This is a very old statement, and I'm not sure it was accurate even when Marco said it. Not that I think he was lying, I just think MA has a different definition of decay than we do.

We define decay as the reduction in TT value of an item when we use it.

I suspect MA's definition of decay is something like this:A fixed percentage (I'm guessing 5-10%) of the sum of the total TT costs involved in any interaction with the system. This includes everything; clicking a BP; driving a vehicle; taking your pet for walkies; everything.

These all have some TT cost involved, and I believe MA takes their percentage as soon as you perform the activity. The remainder is entered into the lootpool and can be "won" back by performing certain activities, such as hunting, mining and crafting.For example; you shoot a mob. Your gun decays 2 pec, your amp 5 pec and you use 13 pec ammo for 20 pec total. MA takes 2 pec as "payment" and the rest is returned to the lootpool.The same goes for crafting. You click a L BP with a 1 pec BP cost and 19 ped materials. MA takes 2 pec and the remainder goes into the crafting lootpool.

Personally I suspect that activities such as TP costs, healing, vehicle costs etc, which are not directly attached to hunting, mining or crafting go into a general rolling lootpool which helps fund the big ATH type loots from all three professions. Or perhaps MA takes it all, IDK. It is pure speculation on my part.

Using the player definition of "decay" does not allow for any rational models, how would melee hunting be explained? Are we to believe that 100% of our melee hunting costs goes to MA? If this mmodel was true, dpp would mean nothing, the most eco guns would be those that have the least gun decay and the most ammo usage.
 
As for hunting indeed i liked more when there was 20 K trox every week rather than 200K kong every year
I preferred this too :(
 
I preferred this too :(


Decay is simply tt cost of click...therefore cost of one click hunting, mining, crafting. If it costs 10ped tt of one click on crafting machine then it is 10 cost in decay.

MA then pay out a percentage of this click. (or however you believe loot to work)

Same with everything you do in PE. Every decay goes directly to MA

EG everytime your armour decays, gun, fap, melee weapon, click on craft, cost of mining drop (bomb + probe), extract something out of the ground......all is decay and goes to MA

Rgds

Ace
 
EU is getting to big anyway, I would have preferred if Sweden never joined it :silly2:

On topic, crafting just have a higher stake, higher stake means higher HOFs and it's also much faster. Crafters can craft a lot more faster than a hunter can kill a big hp mob, so they can have a bigger turnover for every hour they play.

If you want to make it more equal to hunting they need to change the success-ratio, increasing the numbers of success and decreasing the numbers and value of globals/hofs. But in the end, the problem is mostly only for new players, older players who understands the difference between the professions also understands why crafting have more Hofs.

I also think that "MA makes their money from decay" (and fees) actually could be true. Crafters don't decay, but that don't mean they keep all tt input anyway. I think the system is set up so each profession keeps an average around 95% of the tt input for each action, the rest goes to the "pool". MA takes their share from the pool using decay and some fees. For the players and MA it don't matter from where MA takes it share of the peds, because all professions still loose around 5 % of their input to the pool. The melee weapons could have a set up so only 30% of the decay goes to MA, they never said they took all decay, only that they made their money from decay.
 
How do companies make money? People pay them money for a product of a service.

You have to understand that Mindark (and partners) is a company like any other company. They provide a service to it's customers. The service is exclusively consisted of access to the game world of Entropia. So far so good, we all knew this already. But how do people pay for their product? With deposits of course.

Every time you deposit, you're paying for access to the Entropia service. :wise:

This means that MA makes money from deposits, not "from decay". At the end of the year MA will summarize their net deposit flow over the year (ie deposits minus withdrawals). This number represents their net sales of the year. Mindarks profit in any year can thus be said to be (simplified): profit=deposits-withdrawals-other costs. "Decay" doesn't enter into this discussion.

The total TT-value inside Entropia at any given moment is not represented by money on MA's bankaccount. If everyone tried to withdraw at the same time, the amount of money requested would vastly exceed the amount of funds MA has available. Withdrawals only function because people continuously deposit funds into the system.:wise:

At the end of 2013 MA had 2 million SEK in their bank account. At the same time the amount of unconsumed PED inside the system was "worth" 74.5 million SEK. (A bit over 10 million USD, or 100 million PED.) :wise:

Mindark makes money from net deposits, nothing else. Average returns of 95 %, decay, auction fees, estate rent etc. etc. is just ways of decreasing the risk of someone making a withdrawal.

From this point of view OPs statement is still true. Any player scoring a high TT-value loot (such as a crafting ATH) is a walking hazard for MA, because that same player is likely to withdraw at least some of it. On the other hand without those few big ATHs fewer people would be crafting in the first place. And an ATH is rare. It's very possible one 100k loot generates much, much more than that from people depositing in hopes of getting their own ATH.
 
Crafting have condition bar which is not in hunting and mining..tahts why u cant simply say it was just 8 peds. Each crafting sucess is many lost attempts as soon as u just touch condition bar.

As for hunting indeed i liked more when there was 20 K trox every week rather than 200K kong every year

AGREE AGREE AGREE 100000% :wtg::yay:
 
I think MA always said their revenue stream was from decay, not their income. ;)
Decay is only a tool (among others) to increase the need for depos.
 
MA make money from selling peds (deposits).
Oce they sold peds - decay is just one of many methods as how to make you spend it and then buy more peds.
But MA is not gredy as it look somethimes.
Once they have seen that players like to burn 70 + ped/hour when relaxing in between other activities like hunting, crafting and mining.
So MA decided to generously save players from that enourmus decay wich accumulated trought the years and fucked up entire investigator professions.
All to make their customers happy...
 
The 51k ath is not that guys first.

But...even with the multiple ATH's....there is a good chance he is not ahead overall considering the volume of condition crafting he does.

Cycle 200k+ ped in hunting or mining as fast as your highest cost weapons can spend....many times over the a year....ATH chances are way up.
And on top of that...not so big looking considering the output/return.


Its all relative...its just crafting can throw the output up to ridiculous amounts in short order if one chooses.

To keep some perspective:
You can easily cycle 2k+ ped in 5 minutes crafting on many things.

To cycle that much as fast in hunting you need many people shooting at a mob (like a Kong, Ark shared ect) to compete.

Mining cannot drop fast enough to compete with that volume of PED per hour.

Hunting and mining is a slower build. Perhaps there is a favor to crafting if there is any kind of building mechanism at the cost of much higher risk, but in the end... I would guess, that 2m PED cycled in crafting vs 2m PED cycled in hunting , the odds are roughly the same for ATH.
 
Don't forget to figure into calculations that hunters have around 95% of monsters provide a return (even if it is less than cost of kill), whereas crafters and miners get a much higher chance of failure with each attempt.
 
Solo Kunrad is the guy most deserving this hof... the amounts of clicks he does is unholy.
The bp he used for this hof was Limited. (so about 20ped per click for crafter... (as bp markup is about 100k%) and also clicked on condition..)

About your question about same money to kill pets.. i dont think there are many mobs at 180ped(20ped per click on condition works out at about 180ped) per kill, which you kill hundreds with one hour. But surely they have been hoffed and even higher loots.

I am sure if you spent 8M peds on killing some even 100ped per kill mobs, you will end up with some nice 50k hofs.

I am on the opposite opinion.. i think gambler crafters are paying for big portion of MA´s income and they deserve big hofs (even bigger than now)
 
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Forget about MA making peds from decay only, it's an old myth and it's BS.

As for an 8ped click getting 50k, if he's on condition then he's averaging about 15 total losses between successes. Hunters don't get no loot 15 times in a row from an 8ped kill. Same goes for mining in foma/UG/hell, average of 15 no loots in a row before a hit (note. 15 is not scientific, just a number i pulled out of air)

It's true that a hunters gear will often be worth more than a miner or crafte but these guys still have things to spend peds on. A crafter could spend 100kped on blueprints and still be missing spots in his books. He'll probably want at least one shop too, which may go for up to 30kped. A miner will want a good driller (10kped) a U amp would be cool (anywhere from 10k to 300k or more)

So tbh, I'm not seeing where your complaint is. I'd like to see some bigger hof for hunters but it looks like they ironed them out so those massive shared mobs didn't give 10 million and bankupt them.

As I said this is a concern not a complaint. The cost of the things mention is all true but MA makes nothing from those purchases as they do not make anything from the hunter purchases, but my point is more things from hunters decay than from crafters.

BTW I am not bashing crafters at all.
 
Solo Kunrad is the guy most deserving this hof... the amounts of clicks he does is unholy.
The bp he used for this hof was Limited. (so about 20ped per click for crafter... (as bp markup is about 100k%) and also clicked on condition..)

About your question about same money to kill pets.. i dont think there are many mobs at 180ped(20ped per click on condition works out at about 180ped) per kill, which you kill hundreds with one hour. But surely they have been hoffed and even higher loots.

I am sure if you spent 8M peds on killing some even 100ped per kill mobs, you will end up with some nice 50k hofs.

I am on the opposite opinion.. i think gambler crafters are paying for big portion of MA´s income and they deserve big hofs (even bigger than now)

I have no complaint with Solo getting the HOF at all and I wish I could do the same and GZ to him:).
 
All of the replies are good and mostly thoughtful. However I still wonder if EU could survive if the were only crafters.
 
It's true that a hunters gear will often be worth more than a miner or crafte but these guys still have things to spend peds on. A crafter could spend 100kped on blueprints and still be missing spots in his books. He'll probably want at least one shop too, which may go for up to 30kped. A miner will want a good driller (10kped) a U amp would be cool (anywhere from 10k to 300k or more)
.

With the prices of amps going down (the L amps), you really don't need to purchase a UL amp. And the Imp driller really doesn't add much to a miners capabilities. True, the Imp Excavator has 1/2 the decay of like the ME05, but even then the ME05 hardly decays. Mining requires the least investment, in my eyes.

True, crafting can use up a lot of resources on BPs... but that 100k PED worth of BPs is spread out over hundreds of BPs, which are easily sell-able. It's a lot harder for a hunter to sell a few big-ticket items. And shops are really unnecessary. You can just use forums, trade chat in game, or trade channel in game. You can also use the auction. I have about 400,000 PED in crafting globals, and all it cost me was a cheap Amp 2 BP and its resources. Amp 2 BPs cost 8 PED per click, and require no additional investment other than the "ammo". Most 8 PED mobs on Caly require substantial skills and items to kill, on top of the ammo cost.

I have done a significant amount of all three professions, and I found that hunting has always required the deepest investment for me, and it has given me the least back. Mining has always been a go-to for me when my PED card is dropping.
 
All of the replies are good and mostly thoughtful. However I still wonder if EU could survive if the were only crafters.

It's a symbiotic relationship. Crafters, hunters and miners are all tied together. So, the answer is no, EU could not survive with just crafters, as the crafters could not survive without hunters and miners.

Yes, I know your thread is about "HOW" Mindark makes money, but I am quite certain that it's not only decay that they receive. I mean, where do you suppose the auction fees go? IMO, crafters, especially condition crafters, and the biggest auction patrons. Therefore, if those auction fees go into MA's pocket, they are, indeed, contributing to the bottom line.

As far as those 8 ped ATHs, hunters have, indeed, gotten ATHs from mobs that require 8 ped or less to kill. Proterons and leviathans come to mind right off.

Yes, lately it seems that the hunting ATHs have been shared loot, but again, as it's been pointed out, before that ATH hits, hunters generally get something back from each mob, whereas crafters and miners, not so much. Those condition crafters lose a whole lot before they win, and those miners lose a whole lot before they win. Hunters, we tend to lose far less before we win. Difference is, our wins come in smaller doses, but they happen.
 
With the prices of amps going down (the L amps), you really don't need to purchase a UL amp. And the Imp driller really doesn't add much to a miners capabilities. True, the Imp Excavator has 1/2 the decay of like the ME05, but even then the ME05 hardly decays. Mining requires the least investment, in my eyes.

True, crafting can use up a lot of resources on BPs... but that 100k PED worth of BPs is spread out over hundreds of BPs, which are easily sell-able. It's a lot harder for a hunter to sell a few big-ticket items. And shops are really unnecessary. You can just use forums, trade chat in game, or trade channel in game. You can also use the auction. I have about 400,000 PED in crafting globals, and all it cost me was a cheap Amp 2 BP and its resources. Amp 2 BPs cost 8 PED per click, and require no additional investment other than the "ammo". Most 8 PED mobs on Caly require substantial skills and items to kill, on top of the ammo cost.

I have done a significant amount of all three professions, and I found that hunting has always required the deepest investment for me, and it has given me the least back. Mining has always been a go-to for me when my PED card is dropping.
Well said.
 
It's a symbiotic relationship. Crafters, hunters and miners are all tied together. So, the answer is no, EU could not survive with just crafters, as the crafters could not survive without hunters and miners.

Yes, I know your thread is about "HOW" Mindark makes money, but I am quite certain that it's not only decay that they receive. I mean, where do you suppose the auction fees go? IMO, crafters, especially condition crafters, and the biggest auction patrons. Therefore, if those auction fees go into MA's pocket, they are, indeed, contributing to the bottom line.

As far as those 8 ped ATHs, hunters have, indeed, gotten ATHs from mobs that require 8 ped or less to kill. Proterons and leviathans come to mind right off.

Yes, lately it seems that the hunting ATHs have been shared loot, but again, as it's been pointed out, before that ATH hits, hunters generally get something back from each mob, whereas crafters and miners, not so much. Those condition crafters lose a whole lot before they win, and those miners lose a whole lot before they win. Hunters, we tend to lose far less before we win. Difference is, our wins come in smaller doses, but they happen.

I agree about the AU fees and some of the ways MA gets other money, like the depo percent but the thread is really more about the survival of EU not about how much they make but could they survive with mostly crafters.
Here again this is not to be confused with a slam against crafters, just what would happen if there were only crafters.
 
It's a symbiotic relationship. Crafters, hunters and miners are all tied together. So, the answer is no, EU could not survive with just crafters, as the crafters could not survive without hunters and miners.

Yes, I know your thread is about "HOW" Mindark makes money, but I am quite certain that it's not only decay that they receive. I mean, where do you suppose the auction fees go? IMO, crafters, especially condition crafters, and the biggest auction patrons. Therefore, if those auction fees go into MA's pocket, they are, indeed, contributing to the bottom line.

As far as those 8 ped ATHs, hunters have, indeed, gotten ATHs from mobs that require 8 ped or less to kill. Proterons and leviathans come to mind right off.

Yes, lately it seems that the hunting ATHs have been shared loot, but again, as it's been pointed out, before that ATH hits, hunters generally get something back from each mob, whereas crafters and miners, not so much. Those condition crafters lose a whole lot before they win, and those miners lose a whole lot before they win. Hunters, we tend to lose far less before we win. Difference is, our wins come in smaller doses, but they happen.

I have to agree with most of what you say but we are talking about 50K HOFs which have diminished greatly since around 2010 IMO. I don't remember hardly any HOFs since then but have seen many for crafters. I believe there was a 35K on explosives just after the BP came out. I do have a question, would you set the quality up on that BP ? I don't know how that would work. Ofc there was the 330K in recent memory in hunting which was great but it seems that the 50K is had to crack. I hope I can be the first one:wtg:
 
I preferred this too :(

I will second this. It all changed when people came on here to complain about things. Now you rarely see a hint of a 10k loot in a single month via hunting. Crafting and mining though, they don't have to "shared loot" their loots with anybody else.

~Danimal
 
I will second this. It all changed when people came on here to complain about things. Now you rarely see a hint of a 10k loot in a single month via hunting. Crafting and mining though, they don't have to "shared loot" their loots with anybody else.

~Danimal

I agree, the shared loot has been a problem for a long time. It was okay years ago when it was just during events and it was the highest level boss mob. But now shared loot is a constant, and it seems like a lot of the higher loots come from shared loot on all planets, such as the Oratans or the Smuggler Droids (or Kong on occasion). Then again, I don't really like the large ATHs in general. The average player's cost to play has gone up significantly, limiting a lot of players to time in game.
 
As for hunting indeed i liked more when there was 20 K trox every week rather than 200K kong every year

I agree, the shared loot has been a problem for a long time. It was okay years ago when it was just during events and it was the highest level boss mob. But now shared loot is a constant, and it seems like a lot of the higher loots come from shared loot on all planets, such as the Oratans or the Smuggler Droids (or Kong on occasion). Then again, I don't really like the large ATHs in general. The average player's cost to play has gone up significantly, limiting a lot of players to time in game.

Agree and yes :yup:
 
I agree, the shared loot has been a problem for a long time. It was okay years ago when it was just during events and it was the highest level boss mob. But now shared loot is a constant, and it seems like a lot of the higher loots come from shared loot on all planets, such as the Oratans or the Smuggler Droids (or Kong on occasion). Then again, I don't really like the large ATHs in general. The average player's cost to play has gone up significantly, limiting a lot of players to time in game.

When shared loot was only on big mobs or mobs most people couldn't solo or team with 12, it was okay. But now that shared loot is all over the place, even with mobs that avatars can comfortably solo; it is getting ridiculous. No SOLO avatar can beat any of the HoF's on the HoF list at this rate and all of the HoF's on there will be "Shared Loot" in years to come. What's the point of even trying to solo or hunt .... or dare I say... play anymore when there is nothing to aspire to anymore?

~Danimal
 
We as players invoke the fear..But the only thing to fear is fear itself

It's a symbiotic relationship. Crafters, hunters and miners are all tied together. So, the answer is no, EU could not survive with just crafters, as the crafters could not survive without hunters and miners.

Yes, I know your thread is about "HOW" Mindark makes money, but I am quite certain that it's not only decay that they receive. I mean, where do you suppose the auction fees go? IMO, crafters, especially condition crafters, and the biggest auction patrons. Therefore, if those auction fees go into MA's pocket, they are, indeed, contributing to the bottom line.

As far as those 8 ped ATHs, hunters have, indeed, gotten ATHs from mobs that require 8 ped or less to kill. Proterons and leviathans come to mind right off.

Yes, lately it seems that the hunting ATHs have been shared loot, but again, as it's been pointed out, before that ATH hits, hunters generally get something back from each mob, whereas crafters and miners, not so much. Those condition crafters lose a whole lot before they win, and those miners lose a whole lot before they win. Hunters, we tend to lose far less before we win. Difference is, our wins come in smaller doses, but they happen.

I'm going to back you up on this one Coz as I can and have keet statistical fact about each of the professions and in fact I would like to point out that Coz is right in one aspect..

Without hunters, miners, and yes even star ship owners (A little bit on taht one in a moment) then the crafters themselves would be out of a job.

LEt's start off with Hunting and while some people ramble off random figures for hunting the reality of this is that for every 100 or so mobs you hunt the number of no looters vary on the loot pool for any given day.. So on some days when the loot pool is good, the returns can be as high as 95%, while on bad days we're talking as low as 75%. Furthermore everyoone complains about the "Misses' in hunting but the reality is this . When you start skilling into a gun or a weapon be it BLP or laser, Melee or powerfist, the reality is that you're starting at a base 80% hit to miss ratio. Yet eveyone thinks that when you max out a gun or a weapon and it says that it's 10.0 out of 10.0 that you're going to hit for 100%. Now that is NOT true.. The most you'll hit for is about 90% of the time (the other 10% are in fact misses.. and when you critical on a mob the end base chance starts at about 65% and goes up to 81 % whne maxed.. Yet the returns on hunting can be good (and while the actual physical loot has gone down recently due to the addition of shrapnel (which in actuality extends the game play of a player (Players in the past have actually complained about spending just 30 minutes and blowing 300 ped on atrox which in actuality cost anywhere or 3 to 9 ped depending on the maturity. so the players complained, MA listend and they're still not happy?.. why? Because now their precious returns have been taken aay or so they think. (The reality is this. Now because of the shorter supplies, the loot has become more valuable MU wise. but rather than keeping it and waiting for items to sell the hunter in some ways does one of three things..

1. They TT it.. Bad idea.. some player can lose upwards of 20, 30, even 50% MU due to the fact that they are impatient, and in fact it's their impatience that gets the best of them.
By TT'ing the loot, you are taking less ammo in for the next run.. Now with Shrapnel you actually are extending your game play.. and even Selling that is a blessing or a curse.. depending if you are greedy or not. Personally, I never TT stuff anymore and in fact sure I got a locker of loot that no one wants to buy but so what? The reality is that if a crafter is desperate enough they'll pay any price to get what they want. oh and for the sweaters, don't sell yourselves short, cause you're always setting yourself up for failure.. Paitience is a virtue and in the end you might find somene to pay you good ped..(That's why you shop around and ask a lot In short, Negotiate.)

2. Moving onto mining, the reality and stats are as follows and this goes for this lot and if you think Miners are going to hit it big, it's the ones who buy the amps who make the most or lose the most.. Why?

again let's look at Statistics.. Mst miners thing that they're going to hit the same rate as hunters or even crafters, the reality is they're not. According to sources I have, the actual return rate on a good day might be in the 30-35% range.. on a bad day? Maybe 20 %.. The Average is about 1 in 4 or 25%.

Now while this sounds dismal the rreturn on each hit however is significantly higher than for a hunting loot. Where a hunter might be able to get a hit that might be able to cover their huntig cost the miner gets a better return for each hit (An unskilled miiner or one that has low skills (those under say Level 12.5) actually can be more than the probes.. The reality here again is the players and what they sell at to other players..

For I've asked a lot aobut ore buyers and from ore buyers, and while some buyers actually give good rates offering anywhere from -3 to -5 % ( I remember a player who was so gracious she offered -1%!), some of the more unscrupulous buyers buy at -7 to -11 %.. and in the end it's these that put themselves out of business or prey upon the desperate selling miners. but by offering some horrible rates like those the buyers who do this are literally slicing their own throats. Why? Because now you got miners who get less from teh buyer and who can only buy less probes.. Repeat this a few dozen times and soon the buyer won't have people to buy from? Why? Cause they all will either go to a buyer who offers better prices or who will even take what some consider "Junk Loot" (Sweetstuff/Growth Molecules). In fact during october, I made a small killing and left a lot of miners who had that junk loot in their lockers when I offered ia price that was even less than -1%. and you're saying, "Ben how can this be? The reality is that while I was buying the growth at 102, the Fertilzer i was cranking out was selling at 104. even 103 was viable price.. so in the end I walked off planet after filling an order 3 times with about 500 ped.. and all the ore buyers in twin that day got very few sales.. why? Cause most of the miners they had pilfered with bad rates actually got rid of their junk loot and I turned it into instant cash which I then went back into the crowd and asked others if they had that junk lmining loot. More and more sales while the greedy ones ended up ticked off at me..

(So yeah ore buyers pay attention, get competitive and don't screw the miners, they're your bread and butter too..)

Now let's move on to crafting and in fact this is where the crafter is the lyunchpin of the entire works.. without the first two they would be out of a job..

Now I myself craft welding wire, and why is that/ It's because I sell to the people who need it the most, the ship owners who want to be fair and have good reputations (So Pirates, take note, you're out of luck.. go make it youselfves!)

Bu tthen I take that wire metal and energy residues combine it with the animal oil residues I make with things like Conductors and in fact it's this fact that I state when it comes to crafting stats..

Crating on average when you run it on condition is about a 1 in 12 chance Or about 8%, now granted while running on condition makes your pay out 8 to 12 times bigger withou tmetal residue or any residues for thtat matter the losses add up in a hurry (Oh and if you think that crafters don't have decay, they do, they're the ones trying to craft those full TT Amps for the miners (and the L guns and UL scoped for the hunters) that make up the bulk of the decay by removing all the residues from the game y using them in crafting..

But the point is this, When you run on Quantiy and make an item that is full TT and you use up the residue your odds actually improve to around 40%. and in fact since welding wire is a item that produces metal res and energy res but consumed none, this is how I use these materials to my full adantage by pumping them back into the guns and tools I make (and yes I have guns, faps and even finders and extractors, that are availabe for sale at reasonable prices.)

The poiint is this. This game has some of the best and worst odds iin game, while hunters have a good hit rate they do have poorer returns, conversely Miners have poor hit raates but better returns. So where do es this put crafters? Between the two. and this is why without crafters the loot huntes and miners get end up in the TT (Though I will admit that some people are resellers and while total reselling isn't bad, the sweat resellers are the worst.. and it's their reselling tactics that hurt the starting players and keep them from making the choice to depo or not.. (Sure an some folks can't depo so by selling them short, you're just forcing yourself out of business. jst for the sake of a ped.

So in the end, the fats are clear, if people should be worried aobut players taking the money and running is true then the best example of this was a Gentleman from Russia (Which shall remain nameless as per the rules dictated in tis game. ) Now this guy used a bugged item an this is why MA had to revamp the amps the crafters made.. cause this one amp is really what almost killed this game some 3 years ago..

and you know how we all know this?> Cause the guy actually bragged on the forums.. these very forums We're posting on.. (If he had kept his mouth sut, well he could have made those fears a very well founded reality..

Oh and for thoe of you who think that 1 or even 2 plaeyrs can't get a large hof on an 8 ped or less mob? I will give you a case in point.. Back in 2009, I and a noob were out hunting Daikiba after a TP run, and our kill teate intiially was bad, we moved to a different locaiton, found a diakiba provider which cost I might add just a total of about 50 pec, looted both of us 4,378 ped of loot (only 2 items but one of it was in a massive amount of muscle oil. The end of this lesson is this.. between the two of us our cost was just 25 pec each.. and our return well over 4700 ped.. that's a whoppping 9400+ % return.. on one mob. (So Cos there's your proof that it is possible for a less than 8 ped kill to loot a high return )

In the end I have to say this: Par of the fear and worry is that some people think that MA is going bankrupt doue to the crafters who craft the amps.. the reality is this.. for every crafter who putake sthe money and cuts and runs, there's a hunter who's got a lot of time on his hands and a lot of ped on his ped card who wants to hunt.. and even sweaters who finally get paid a decent wage by fair and honest traders actually help increase the loot pool evne if they don't depo..

but in the end, greed, Jealousy and just downright stupidity helps feed the fear.. and as a great president once said, "The nly thing we hae to fear is fear itself..

yet in the end , we've met the enemy and they are us.. we're our worst way of making this game work.. or not.. we're the ones who should be helping t grow, but the end result is that it's only growing by word of mouth and bad mouths usually mean that player will leave hearing all the gripes and complaints..

so in the end, you want a better game? You want better Loot? you want to be happy? Do us a all a favor, help a new plyer, pay him a fair wage, hunt smarter not harder, and do the same with mining, and with Crafting/ Know how to do math and stas in your head.. cause if you don't then teh fear does become a reality..

that's allI have to say about this.. Coyote over and out.

Benjamin Ben Coyote (Space Pilot Call sign "Coyote")
a.k.a' The Blind Sniper (and) "His_Dog_Spot"
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