How to implement no-logging correctly

mitsuwa said:

I have additional questions now.
Your system allows the contingency of logging off still. The loot is just kicked back to a safe station and you have to try again later. Mine means that the crew have to do what they were already doin, which is get from A to B without dying, and if they can, you are dumped to station with your loot.

Given that this is the sole difference, which it is, what about your system makes it more fair and favorable vs mine?


Kratt, please hang yourself at your earliest convenience.

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Mainly the reason i fielded earlier that lootable stuff from planets can get sealed in containers and hunting loot can stay on person, so that hunting loot doesnt get relocated to safety.
Both types of loot origin need to be treated differently to allow life in space and hunts over many days to stay possible and convenient without being exploitable.

Ooh, so you want to be able to poof your passengers shit back to safety if need be, but not have to deal with your own system during your week long lacousta hunts. Got it, thanks.

mitsuwa said:

Ooh, so you want to be able to poof your passengers shit back to safety if need be, but not have to deal with your own system during your week long lacousta hunts. Got it, thanks.

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I dont get you, how could it be in my favour to be against a safe way to sent hunting loot to a storage ?
Im asking this because it would be exploitable - people could go hunting and still secure their loot just by logging out if it were the way you suggested.
What i suggest is actually leaving me at the risk to deal with my hunting loot, but thats why its lootable pvp in the first place.

Because with you, it's about face. If your crew gets fragged, that's one thing, but to have a customer get looted is unacceptable and wwould cost you face. You seem to want to leave a loophole that still allows you to kick back a passengers stuff, but while hunting not have to deal with DCs kicking your loot to the station near NI while hunting

Under my system, no one gets anything kicked back for any reason. If you're on the ship, logged in or not, you're vulnerable for the entire haul. No exception. If you DC unexpectedly, you will be moved to the next station the ship you are on docks with. If it was a planned log off, and you want it, you are not moved to the station and stay with the ship. I honestly don't know from where you are getting the idea that this is exploitable, while also neglecting the face that I already know exactly how to exploit yours, and have detailed how twice already.

mitsuwa said:

Kratt, please hang yourself at your earliest convenience.

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Sorry, sometimes I just think funny things.

mitsuwa said:

Because with you, it's about face. If your crew gets fragged, that's one thing, but to have a customer get looted is unacceptable and wwould cost you face. You seem to want to leave a loophole that still allows you to kick back a passengers stuff, but while hunting not have to deal with DCs kicking your loot to the station near NI while hunting

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Don't be daft, the crew does not get "fragged" ( what on earth even is that!) portable tt machines are epic, and there's a whole herd of angry beasts just waiting for a would be attacker to munch on! ( the new space taming )
As crew, I can answer that one

mitsuwa said:

Under my system, no one gets anything kicked back for any reason. If you're on the ship, logged in or not, you're vulnerable for the entire haul. No exception. If you DC unexpectedly, you will be moved to the next station the ship you are on docks with. If it was a planned log off, and you want it, you are not moved to the station and stay with the ship. I honestly don't know from where you are getting the idea that this is exploitable, while also neglecting the face that I already know exactly how to exploit yours, and have detailed how twice already.

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Under your system, if the pilot dcs, and half the crew! as often can happen. They are all sent packing to where exactly? The next station it docks with? It can't dock, all the crew are kicked off it! It's a bit daft.

A few years back there was a bug like this, mass disconnect across space, and avatars being relocated all over the place. It was a blooming nightmare. Trying to re-collect your crew and worse still locate and fly to your blooming ship! Never minding throwing into the equation what if you get a mass dc mid battle! Would just be completely impractical.

We can't stop disconnects, we can't stop log outs, we can still make it possible for avatars to be looted whilst not being online, by having their loot disconnected from their avatar in some form or another. If you wish for everyone's loot to be loot able, no matter what, then instead of throwing avatars (and crew) to far flung reaches of the galaxy, simply say that they either all stay onbaord as some kind of ghost ( like your cyro idea) or that they can leave, but their loot can't until the ship docks again.

It could all be so simple!

mitsuwa said:

Because with you, it's about face. If your crew gets fragged, that's one thing, but to have a customer get looted is unacceptable and wwould cost you face. You seem to want to leave a loophole that still allows you to kick back a passengers stuff, but while hunting not have to deal with DCs kicking your loot to the station near NI while hunting

Under my system, no one gets anything kicked back for any reason. If you're on the ship, logged in or not, you're vulnerable for the entire haul. No exception. If you DC unexpectedly, you will be moved to the next station the ship you are on docks with. If it was a planned log off, and you want it, you are not moved to the station and stay with the ship. I honestly don't know from where you are getting the idea that this is exploitable, while also neglecting the face that I already know exactly how to exploit yours, and have detailed how twice already.

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Under your system since the system doesnt know who is crew and who is passenger the whole spaceship crew will get spread out over the universe to various destinations as the ship moves along.
Aside from how unlogical and inconvenient this for all spacecraft owners would be do you realize that all spacecrafts do have their interior on a different server ?
Are you aware that if someone disconnects inside, that it can take different amounts of time for the system to register this and react on it ?
If this happens during warp while jumping several space servers, this person could end up just about anywhere.

Lets assume the ship makes the flight successfully as it should be in most cases then the loot should arrive at the ships target location but the passenger is somewhere completely different.
Now imagine the ship goes on warp and has one of those 'rare' synchonisation issues leading to interior server and exterior server having to resync again causing a disconnect of all crew inside or all crew outside - they log back in to find themself dropped off at some spacestation without spaceship while there ship now partially uncrewed is attacked elsewhere.

Or even worse imagine a privateer with low crew and only one pilot - the pilot gets disconnected while in pilot seat and dropped at the next spacestation stranding the privateers in outer space vulnerable with noone onboard to fly it to fly it back to safety.

Regardless if the player goes in cryo or just afk he should always stay with the ship that he joined with a purpose and intentional - just because he has some real issues shouldnt cause him thrown offboard.
Actually if at all after a ships destruction, the ship should get moved to the last spacestation it was docked to and everyone should revive right back onboard instead of the spacestation itself - that would help alot to not loose afk people behind.

mitsuwa: first of all, I expect John's fleet to remain very highly protected whatever happens and that passengers will remain highly safe as well anyway!

I also agree with keeping loot brought onto the ship distinct from space loot, which on bigger ships could be tt-ed, for example, while the passenger loot stored in containers could not. Isn't that a disadvantage for passengers in the event of impending doom, mitsuwa? Where do you get your attitude that everything John thinks is about his own gain?

Anyway, I've also already posted that I believe loot should stay on board until a future safe stop and not be sent back into the past if someone logs or crashes out. So I'm more with mitsuwa on that one - except I'd like the option b-e-f-o-r-e a potential crash of how I am treated: as crew staying with the ship, as a passenger to be dropped at a destination, or as someone who wants to be dropped at the first safe haven if I am not in the game for some reason.

Let me come at this another way.


Under my system

there are two ways you can disconnect.
1) Go to a nearby terminal/bed, and log off manually.
2) You are forced out of game by a DC or CTD.

under option one, the following will occur.
Your avatar vanishes, and still has your loot.
If the ship goes down, your avatar will appear in space with the dead ship, and you are lootable.
Logging back in will place you on the ship regardless of past events.

Under option two, the following will occur.
Your avatar does not vanish, and still has your loot
If the ship goes down, your avatar will appear in space with the dead ship, and you are lootable.
Logging in will place you at the first station the ship docked with after you disconnected, or if you have never docked, back on the ship.

The intent is to allow crew to stay with the ship while logged off, but to allow people that DC unexpectedly to not stay with the ship after their leg is complete. If they stay with the ship, their loot is in danger until you can get control of your avatar again, and that could take any amount of time.

Our systems are essentially the same, the only difference is that I'm treating avatars differently, instead of treating loot differently.


OR to address losing DCing crew, make it a simple check box when you get to the ship.
Would you like to stay with the ship in the event of a disconnect, or be dumped on the next station after your disconnect. Check one and move on.
Hell, you can even let them pick what planet they want dumped at in the event of a disconnect, assuming the ship has visited it. Otherwise, you appear back on the ship as normal.

jetsina said:

Where do you get your attitude that everything John thinks is about his own gain?

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I got it from being unable to make myself clear to the extent that I felt my points were being ignored or twisted, which is why I'm trying this from a different angle. I have a habit of being really wordy at times and expecting everyone to be able to keep up with me. I'm a writer on the side, I'm used to dealing with native english speakers, which allows me free use of metephors and other indirect forms of language. This is my error. Sorry about getting frustrated and assuming things.

just make it so you log off, whether intentional or unintentional, your avatar is stuck at the coordinates that it was last at when the log off occurred, much like the way wandering around in a quad type vehicle works now. In 'game terms' you basically ejected your avatar from the vehicle in an escape pod type of thing, but since those type of pods don't really exist in game yet, your avatar will die since it can't breathe in space (even though it has no problems breathing under water?) . Along with this, increase the amount of revives in space. Put a bunch of little asteroids all over the map, much like the outpost revives all over the planets to ensure logoff is not a shortcut. Be sure to put an auction in most of them so that you can buy a ship to get out of there if you need to. Maybe even add visuals on the map indicating where avatars logged off in case pirates want to sit and wait for logon to happen again.

kk mitsuwa
If we have the checkbox option, then that keeps a lot of potential problems away in my opinion.

Edit: no, the options I would have would not "remove the crews [sic] ability to stay with the ship in the event of a disconnect". Sorry for spoiler on the comment below - but it's easier to answer by edit as I'm just above...
(it would be an option you can change at any time, not a fixed thing you only decide when boarding...)

that will remove the crews ability to stay with the ship in the event of a disconnect. It isn't that simple unfortunately.

mitsuwa said:

Logging in will place you at the first station the ship docked with after you disconnected.

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What if they log back in before the ship has docked yet? Or if it was the pilot & crew who dc'd would it never get docked?

mitsuwa said:

The intent is to allow crew to stay with the ship while logged off, but to allow people that DC unexpectedly to not stay with the ship after their leg is complete.

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BUt crew also dc unfortunaltey, and this more than anything would cause a right headache for them!

mitsuwa said:

Our systems are essentially the same, the only difference is that I'm treating avatars differently, instead of treating loot differently.

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There are some similarities, when they are all thrashed out to the bare bones

mitsuwa said:

OR to address losing DCing crew, make it a simple check box when you get to the ship.
Would you like to stay with the ship in the event of a disconnect,

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Now the Brain storming is getting somewhere, to a complicated place but still somewhere!

mitsuwa said:

or be dumped on the next station after your disconnect. Check one and move on.
Hell, you can even let them pick what planet they want dumped at in the event of a disconnect.

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Oo careful with that one. Who would need to warp at all if you can be summoned to a hangar, click a box for ark, then "accidenlty" dc. You'd have to put another system in place to stop that, then its getting real complex.

mitsuwa said:

I got it from being unable to make myself clear to the extent that I felt my points were being ignored or twisted, which is why I'm trying this from a different angle. I have a habit of being really wordy at times and expecting everyone to be able to keep up with me. I'm a writer on the side, I'm used to dealing with native english speakers. This is my error. Sorry about getting frustrated and assuming things.

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Just a tad condescending don't you think? You don't know whom among you have degrees in English or even best selling authors

I doubt there has been a language barrier here, more a set of complex ideas and a proposal which needed thrashed out. In order to show both any weaknesses and the strengths. There is absolutely nothing wrong with defending your idea, and it is commendable to even have the courage to post one in the first place. The getting personal is wrong, however if you are putting that down to your frustration then it can be understandable and hopefully manageable

Progress is made on such things when one can approach with the ability to not only take reference from your own experience and opinions, but also from those around, draw on the experience of others in the area. Imagine a new scientific theory where not one single other reference was collected.

We all know that's the basis of so many new discoveries in science, medicine and more! You have a theory, you open it to your peers, and they review, pointing out what won't work and the result is giving you the opportunity to make changes to the better. Such free, diverse, and often highly experienced peer review like we have here and now in this very thread, should never been seen as an attack or smirked at, surely always with an open mind and encouragement for change

We all want the same thing, there are just many ways to ( I won't say skin a cat, and I love cats!)... There are many ways to achieve the same goal. It should never come to an argument, or as low as personal insults being thrown around - but a healthy civilised debate with ideas and theories being cherished, recycled and re-worked

Here is a suggestion...
keep all avatars on ship whether logged in or not and give the pilots the ability to "boot" offline avatars to current SS.

Alainax said:

Snip~

Oo careful with that one. Who would need to warp at all if you can be summoned to a hangar, click a box for ark, then "accidenlty" dc. You'd have to put another system in place to stop that, then its getting real complex.

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you started writing before i finished my edit

Mitsuwa said:

Logging in will place you at the first station the ship docked with after you disconnected, or if you have never docked, back on the ship.

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It's implied that you have to dock with the station you've selected to get dumped in that manner.

mastermesh said:

your avatar will die since it can't breathe in space (even though it has no problems breathing under water?) .

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Now this.... is an excellent point!

jetsina said:

kk mitsuwa
If we have the checkbox option, then that keeps a lot of potential problems away in my opinion.

Edit: no, the options I would have would not "remove the crews [sic] ability to stay with the ship in the event of a disconnect". Sorry for spoiler on the comment below - but it's easier to answer by edit as I'm just above...
(it would be an option you can change at any time, not a fixed thing you only decide when boarding...)

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I was speaking to the person that posted before you

I like to gift pirates 1 dung in a case of shoot down. they l be realy happy after they ported to Space Station revi when they where shooten down for owning 1 piece freshly looted dung