What's Wrong with the Economy.

Rocket192

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While sales have indeed steadily decreased since the 2008-09 peak of Entropia, people complaining about bad markups need to educate themselves...

Resource consumption is at an all-time low thanks to the disaster of explosive bps.. but that doesn't mean undercutting every auction to force faster turnover is the best decision for the economy.

The players set markups, not Mindark. Mindark may directly influence demand, but it's the responsibility of the players to preserve their loot markups...

While this is just one example, the same is seen for a variety of resources/oils/hides/enmatters across the board.

Regardless of who is at fault, things need to turn around, and fast.
 
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Resource consumption is at an all-time low thanks to the disaster of explosive bps.. but that doesn't mean undercutting every auction to force faster turnover is the best decision for the economy.

Well I hear where you are coming from but I have to say a lot has to do with the nerfs MA has put into place. One of the biggest has been with crafting. I am not a crafter myself other than crafting hides here and there...but I have felt the hit and am guessing this, along with mining has slowed the economy down to a crawl along of course with the new BP. It is plan to see that we have had new management running EU for the last few years..it's just interested to see where it goes. Sad to say I feel subscription based game is coming soon.

But hey I'm all for it. If we do remove the RCE from the game I wouldn't have any problems with pirates at all.
 
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Well I hear where you are coming from but I have to say a lot has to do with the nerfs MA has put into place. One of the biggest has been with crafting. I am not a crafter myself other than crafting hides here and there...but I have felt the hit and am guessing this, along with mining has slowed the economy down to a crawl along of course with the new BP. It is plan to see that we have had new management running EU for the last few years..it's just interested to see where it goes. Sad to say I feel subscription based game is coming soon.

But hey I'm all for it. If we do remove the RCE from the game I wouldn't have any problems with pirates at all.

If something like that happens I feel like MA would have a legal obligation to inform investors (players) to remove funds before the RCE aspect of the game is removed. I feel like this is quite "out there" but with the lack of communication from leadership and developers I wouldn't be surprised to see them try something this foolish.
 
They don't have to warn to anything. Tomorrow, all these people who have "invested" tens of thousands, into this game, could be out of luck. They could simply say " The game is closed, company is bankrupt" Or anything can happen.

The same can happen in real life. Stocks fall, crash and burn all the time.
People have careers, they invested years in, schooling, etc. And one day, go to work, and find out, they have no more job, and have a police escort them, and hundreds others off the premises.

Now, does that make it fair? Or right? Or reasonable? Probably not. But anyone that thinks its impossible, and that it wont happen, is delusional. Sure, you could try and sue them, but again, if they are bankrupt, they are free from any legal and financial obligation. ( Hence the reason for a bankruptcy)

Whatever you put, or will put into this game, is for your own amusement, and risk. If you enjoyed your time, great. If you think that you deserve some sort of a payoff, for the years, and thousands you put in this game, you should call this number, right now: 1-800-ADMIT-IT

And, I am sure, in the TOS, they have their butts covered anyhow.
 
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It's dying.

MA had a beautiful vision, and created a beautiful world.

But that peaceful world was slowly corrupted.

Along the way, MA made a few mistakes: allowing constant exploits, balancing, unique, rare or ancient items and one-of-a-kind bps, allowing scammers, not creating an item loan system, space with its cheating pirates...the list goes on and on...

Before long, those exploiters that were allowed to continue, those scammers refused to return items, those rare, ancient and unique items and bp's, they became the tools of ped-sucking vultures.

As the vultures lied and tried to cover up their acts to make us all feel it was a fair game, the withdrawals kept coming.

MA tried to make it last, so rare events became common events, new events sprang forth, big HOF's belonged to shared mobs as they tried to please more people at once, but despite all it's efforts, the will of the average player grew weaker.

Deposits became rarer, and withdrawal times were extended.

And the greedy men just kept withdrawing and withdrawing, and there was nothing MA could do to stop them, because if they tried, the game was dead, once the vultures sang unto the forums.

So MA's house crumbled, and it became a mere shell of it's once great glory.

And in it's last gasps, MA fought with everything it had left....CLD's, shrapnel, equus, and finally, explosives.

It will be too late when MA realizes their mistake: They kept feeding the vultures. They ignored the scammers, they were blind to the exploiters, and they tried to survive off the average player, instead of fixing what truly mattered.

Will is destroyed by letting the elite, the vultures, the scammers, and the exploiters, prey upon the general population. And existence is doomed if you destroy the will of the your population.

And so, the story of the the bright star that was will be told years from now, by the players that once lived and loved and played this game, with the occasional fond memory, but more commonly, with endless rivers of heartbreak over the failure of MA to sustain the body by cutting off the snake-bit, poisoned hand.
 
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Whats wrong?

Well to all this whinners who think markups are way to low, and all these whinners calling ExploBP unbalanced.

Grab some BPs, doesn´t matter what! Stop hunting, stop mining and start crafting for a week or two.

Then come back here again, and still tell us markup on this and that is to low.

Start seeing things how a crafter sees the things and not only your hunter/miner view of things.

And as OP already said, its not MAs fault that players oversupply the market with resources and undercut each others offers.
Its mainly playermade problem.

A crafter who is playing on a 5k PED purse never ever can consume all the resources gained by a miner playing on a 20k PED purse.

To many miners, to many hunters only a small number of real crafters (I don´t speak about the gamblers that actually click the ExploBPs).

What did MA wrong?

Nearly no market for anything else than crafted mining amps/finders, as nearly every hunter already owns his uL SIB guns for different level mobs. This made weapon crafting obsolete, same counts for armor crafting (well a few high end L armors like Lich not counted).

When MA introduced a lot of L things like weapons, armors the idea was to create a larger demand for crafted items.
Then MA started to drop this things as uL SIB and completely killed the demand for crafting.

Thats what happend!
I already said it when first uL SIB guns dropped, that this is definately biggest mistake MA ever did and will lead to death of crafting over time.
 
Whats wrong?

Well to all this whinners who think markups are way to low, and all these whinners calling ExploBP unbalanced.

Grab some BPs, doesn´t matter what! Stop hunting, stop mining and start crafting for a week or two.

Then come back here again, and still tell us markup on this and that is to low.

Start seeing things how a crafter sees the things and not only your hunter/miner view of things.

And as OP already said, its not MAs fault that players oversupply the market with resources and undercut each others offers.
Its mainly playermade problem.

A crafter who is playing on a 5k PED purse never ever can consume all the resources gained by a miner playing on a 20k PED purse.

To many miners, to many hunters only a small number of real crafters (I don´t speak about the gamblers that actually click the ExploBPs).

What did MA wrong?

Nearly no market for anything else than crafted mining amps/finders, as nearly every hunter already owns his uL SIB guns for different level mobs. This made weapon crafting obsolete, same counts for armor crafting (well a few high end L armors like Lich not counted).

When MA introduced a lot of L things like weapons, armors the idea was to create a larger demand for crafted items.
Then MA started to drop this things as uL SIB and completely killed the demand for crafting.

Thats what happend!
I already said it when first uL SIB guns dropped, that this is definately biggest mistake MA ever did and will lead to death of crafting over time.


"What did MA wrong?" ---> this time....


The economy is not retained on the planet between the players like with the syntetic mindforce stuff we are forced to buy from TT and now all components for crafting in the explo BPs these materials would we buy from other players do not from MA.

So this means that the new trend is that we started buying everything we need from MA directly and not from other players like miners,hunters and sweaters and i do not call this for a real economy.

I will not have go and buy things from God to be able to eat only to the farmer quite logical.
 
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What did MA wrong?

They significantly increased a drop of new weapons and armor, which is better, than crafted.
The problem of crafter is not an explosives, but that the crafted products are not competitive with looted. They require more money from buyer, and frozen in weapons, they are more expensive (e.g. 25% MU from 400 PED (100 PED) or 40% from 135 PED (54 PED), feel the difference). And it's all almost completely negates the market production of weapons or armor (except several items). The market of crafted weapons or armors works only in the absence of the required items from loot, but now it is solved with 2 or 6 ped (transport fee).
Given that there is now a considerable surplus of weapons and armor, looted on the hunt, when it largely absent demand on crafted items, made by players (which are more expensive). Now, there are only a few positions that pay off (like Perseus Armor). I think if MA remove all BP's, weapons and armor, all rest which looted from the hunt - will be enough for everyone. And if the crafter does not make weapons (or any other items), which nobody buys, in turn, it does not consume resources which mine too many people (with level 13 amps lol), and as a result - MU falls on all that is possible. In this case, the chain stops. However, the miners do not stops, and hunters too. And the market is stagnating.

Nothing special, ordinary economy and the crisis of overproduction.

The decision - to improve stats crafted weapons and armor. Actually lead to increased production and consumption.
The second solution - to increase the number of players. In several times.

This is only an example in one area of crafting. In general, the situation is typical for all industries of EU, except maybe tools (which consumed too long before player must do a next purchase!) and vehicles (Which, incidentally, also should decay when moving!).

But we do not complain. We are coping. Producing nothing or burning resources in the gambling.
 
I don't think Markups being low is necessarily a problem, if the resources drop often enough. I don't get to participate long enough but whenever I mine the amount I get back in TT is not a huge amount different to what I put in, in TT value (looking at 1000PED runs.)

This whole concept really hinges on people feeling like they are not being ripped off. That they lose no more then 10% of what the put in, provided they are doing things at their level. Do stupid things like be a level 10-15 in hunting professions and then hunt level 30 mobs, you're asking for a 30% return!

If resources are picked up easily, and they are not getting munched quickly enough by crafters, then of course the markup is going to decrease.

I think what would help balance is the ability to run significant amounts of materials through crafting as a low-level, whith a fair chance of good reward, but with a half decent return rate. I think this will help pick the economy up. You kind of have this with the explosives, it is, as a concept for what I've just described, working very well, relatively low levels of skill needed to run high amounts of low-cost materials with decent chance of reward. What I don't know about the explosive BP at the moment is the return rate as I've not managed to finish a run as yet. If you had similar BPs with lower level requirements on common materials, that on average only saw you lose between 5%-15% with a chance of a good size HoF, I think the gears would be well oiled.

With the gears well oiled, people are more likely to feel comfortable with a flutter on more risky activities every now and then, providing a healthy balance.
 
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i think a forth profession is needed.

No, just some overly active miners and hunters should stop (or decrease) their activity.
Because they either play with TT, or they can not sell what they loot or mine, or can sell, but cheap.
Although if MA will change the balance (for example, will always loot only oil or lyst when mining, and the rest is rarely), then everything may rise in price.

PS Whatever happens, there will always be unhappy players, and they will whine :)
 
Just picking up on one thing you said

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Resource consumption is at an all-time low thanks to the disaster of explosive bps.. but that doesn't mean undercutting every auction to force faster turnover is the best decision for the economy.

I would say resource consumption is at an ATH because of the expl bp

With the reduced markup on amps for mining, people are finding more resources than ever.

People are crafting more than ever because residue is at an All time low.

So i would say that resource consumption has massively increased since the introduction of expl bp.


Whether this is good or bad, is another discussion.

Just my :twocents:

Rgds

Ace
 
With the reduced markup on amps for mining, people are finding more resources than ever.

I have just one question.

I'd really like to know where these people have extra money to increase their turnover (If you mean more resources = more turnover)?
These 5-7% - a drop in the ocean. But overall MU on resources decreased much more.
Which undoubtedly affected to the turnover of these people .. towards its reduction.
And it became more difficult to get a profit (maybe not for you or me, but for most other players)
 
I have just one question.

I'd really like to know where these people have extra money to increase their turnover (If you mean more resources = more turnover)?
These 5-7% - a drop in the ocean. But overall MU on resources decreased much more.
Which undoubtedly affected to the turnover of these people .. towards its reduction.
And it became more difficult to get a profit (maybe not for you or me, but for most other players)

Its purely a state of mind, people don't like to pay high markup for stuff, so less markup means more people are willing to use them. Don't believe me? Look at every single graph for ores and enmatters, all of which have steadily be declining in markup, because of one reason only, increased supply. More supply because more people are amping, more people are amping because markup on amps has massively come down.

Rgds

Ace
 
I think, explosive bp was a good move by MA, as low MU residue increases other items' markup. Removing UL TT weapons was also a good first step. If there would be better crafted end products, which wouldn't require tons of different shit as the new bp's have lately done, this economy balancing could work.
 
Has been mentioned earlier in thread but crafted weapons/armours need a rebalance to compete with looted in my humble opinion. Especially Calypso ones which most are from old times, also BTAU and ATUA drops ceased making it impossible to craft some prints. From a players perspective it feels like an arms race has been ongoing between planet partners -

Arkadian crafted were good

Then came Cyrene with new ul weaps with good eco, gauss

In response came new better eco Calypso looted weapons

To counter Arkadian looted weaps were improved eco...

All this left the crafted market behind somewhat as pp's contended for the hunters market.

All these moves ofc affect amount of stuff being crafted and so demand for resources/components. Add to this increased ore/enmatter supply do to mining amps at a record low % and we have oversupply eating mark ups also from other side.

I think perhaps we are in a transition period at the moment, i remember reading a roadmap that all the professions are being reworked/rebalanced and perhaps crafting and old armours/weaps are in the pipeline. The weapons that used to be the backbone of crafting economy are no longer viable due to better eco of looted, P-series, breer, apis etc...

Perhaps the flood of residue from the expl ammo prints is in preparation for new or rebalanced weapons/armours from old prints. I think start of rebalancing has already been done with trade terminal equipment over the planets.

Just my take on things, maybe i'm wrong but am sure other more experienced and established crafters can expand on what i've posted.
 
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Its purely a state of mind, people don't like to pay high markup for stuff, so less markup means more people are willing to use them. Don't believe me? Look at every single graph for ores and enmatters, all of which have steadily be declining in markup, because of one reason only, increased supply. More supply because more people are amping, more people are amping because markup on amps has massively come down.

Rgds

Ace

Thank you, I understand your point of view. Yes, everything is reduced. I agree. But what about 10% costs, which takes a MA? Thereby when cutting out the markup you lose the same amount as before. I think that it will be difficult to recoup these costs without increase turnover. Not all players have the money for it.
 
Thank you, I understand your point of view. Yes, everything is reduced. I agree. But what about 10% costs, which takes a MA? Thereby when cutting out the markup you lose the same amount as before. I think that it will be difficult to recoup these costs without increase turnover. Not all players have the money for it.


I agree it will be more difficult to recoup cost, in fact in the long run it will be VERY difficult.

Not sure what you mean about costs, but MA's cut of 10%, they get more money from us players now, as we are decaying more.

Or did you mean something else?

Rgds

Ace
 
I agree it will be more difficult to recoup cost, in fact in the long run it will be VERY difficult.

Not sure what you mean about costs, but MA's cut of 10%, they get more money from us players now, as we are decaying more.

Or did you mean something else?

Rgds

Ace

Normal return in mining (TT) - about 90%. The rest 10% - is MA tax.
You think that reducing MU in mining will help to players to break this tax?
Therefore - less MU - less money - less possibility to use amps. The same situation as before. But a little more players can't break taxes now.
So why you think that overall turnover is increased? This will require more money which will not take out of nothing. Something I do not think that here become more deposits.
 
I think people need to take stock of that fact that primarily, you're not supposed to profit on everything you do!

Markup on low-end highly available resource should always be low. Markup should only be larger on resources that contribute to the manufacture of useful (L) and/or rare (UL) items. Everything else is skilling material.
 
I think people need to take stock of that fact that primarily, you're not supposed to profit on everything you do!

Here I disagree. Your work should pay off, unless of course it's not just for fun.
And I do not like deposits, so all I do - makes a profit.
 
Normal return in mining (TT) - about 90%. The rest 10% - is MA tax.
You think that reducing MU in mining will help to players to break this tax?
Therefore - less MU - less money - less possibility to use amps. The same situation as before. But a little more players can't break taxes now.
So why you think that overall turnover is increased? This will require more money which will not take out of nothing. Something I do not think that here become more deposits.


K i see what you mean, my apologies, i must need more coffee.

I think of it like this, (just as an example):

Player A has 5k peds, which means he can turnover 5k peds at anyone time.
He can either do this with 5k bombs, or with amps and a lot less bombs.
Pre expl bp, he/she didnt use amps because didn't like markup on them.
So they got 5k bombs and turned those over.
Since reduced markup on amps, they like to amp now
So they turnover 5k on bombs and amps
Instead of just on amps

That is how i see it, so they are now turning over more peds per bomb, but still have the same amount on ped card.

Rgds

Ace

EDIT: more turnover for exactly the same reason people gamble on expl bps, they want teh big win
 
Normal return in mining (TT) - about 90%. The rest 10% - is MA tax.
You think that reducing MU in mining will help to players to break this tax?
Therefore - less MU - less money - less possibility to use amps. The same situation as before. But a little more players can't break taxes now.
So why you think that overall turnover is increased? This will require more money which will not take out of nothing. Something I do not think that here become more deposits.


In all honesty, if you arguing "if" turnover has increased. The simple answer is yes.

CLD payments for the last 4 weeks is higher than it has been since last august.

CLD payments are directly related to the amount that is decayed. So higher cld payment = more decay.

Rgds

Ace
 
Oh and i wouldnt bet my life on it, but i wouldnt be surprised if the increased cld payments started just after expl bps were introduced.

Rgds

Ace
 
K i see what you mean, my apologies, i must need more coffee.

I think of it like this, (just as an example):

Player A has 5k peds, which means he can turnover 5k peds at anyone time.
He can either do this with 5k bombs, or with amps and a lot less bombs.
Pre expl bp, he/she didnt use amps because didn't like markup on them.
So they got 5k bombs and turned those over.
Since reduced markup on amps, they like to amp now
So they turnover 5k on bombs and amps
Instead of just on amps

That is how i see it, so they are now turning over more peds per bomb, but still have the same amount on ped card.

Rgds

Ace

EDIT: more turnover for exactly the same reason people gamble on expl bps, they want teh big win

The fact of the matter is that amps only reduce the time for session, but did not give a chance to break tax. In addition, long session is always more profitable than short (IMO), and at a short distance mining is no longer a resource extraction, and more akin to gambling. Chance of loss increases at a short session (with amps). And in order to keep the duration of the session you need more money.
You are afraid that your losses will increase. Ok, and you involve more money - then you oversaturate the market, driving down all MU's.
 
Here I disagree. Your work should pay off, unless of course it's not just for fun.
And I do not like deposits, so all I do - makes a profit.

I think you'll find the statement I made was from MindArk's perspective. They wouldn't have a business if they expected everyone to profit!
 
I think you'll find the statement I made was from MindArk's perspective. They wouldn't have a business if they expected everyone to profit!

I'm just trying to explain to you that there are different opinions on this issue. I also love to play for fun. But I do some work (e.g. crafting) for the sole purpose to make a profit.
 
UL sib ..... Too short.
 
The fact of the matter is that amps only reduce the time for session, but did not give a chance to break tax. In addition, long session is always more profitable than short (IMO), and at a short distance mining is no longer a resource extraction, and more akin to gambling. Chance of loss increases at a short session (with amps). And in order to keep the duration of the session you need more money.
You are afraid that your losses will increase. Ok, and you involve more money - then you oversaturate the market, driving down all MU's.


I wasnt talking about how much people lose, i was saying why people have increased turnover.

You might as well argue, why do people craft exp bp's?

Why do people hunt uneco....

Its all kind of irrelevant.

People see cheaper amps, people buy them, it is that simple.

Most people don't even know how much they decay, how much anything costs them in game. They see their ped card and how much it goes up and down, how doesnt matter to most.

Just like all the threads where people complain about <50% tt returns, it is all a load of bullshit, the reality is, they don't know where their money goes.




Rgds

Ace
 
I wasnt talking about how much people lose, i was saying why people have increased turnover.

You might as well argue, why do people craft exp bp's?

Why do people hunt uneco....

Its all kind of irrelevant.

People see cheaper amps, people buy them, it is that simple.

Most people don't even know how much they decay, how much anything costs them in game. They see their ped card and how much it goes up and down, how doesnt matter to most.

Just like all the threads where people complain about <50% tt returns, it is all a load of bullshit, the reality is, they don't know where their money goes.




Rgds

Ace

Then it's just a casino for these people, and in this case, any talk about the economy or MU's does not make sense. We just have to enjoy and profit from the gambling players. :laugh:
 
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