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What's Wrong with the Economy.

Gewitter said:
I'm just trying to explain to you that there are different opinions on this issue. I also love to play for fun. But I do some work (e.g. crafting) for the sole purpose to make a profit.
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I'm fully aware of this, and never attempted to presume everyone's motivation. I'm merely stating the fact that MindArk need to make a profit themselves and that their intention is that for the most part, participants need to not profit on day to day activities (Hunting, Mining, Crafting.)

You can be savvy enough to get around this with trades, picking the right BPs to craft with, selling mined resources for enough markup. All of this is NOT the intention of MindArk but what participants expect to be able to do, which is a maligned viewpoint.
 
Gewitter said:
Then it's just a casino for these people, and in this case, any talk about the economy or MU's does not make sense. We just have to enjoy and profit from the gambling players. :laugh:
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Players only make money off other players. YOu need gamblers, none gamblers, monthly subscription types, grinders, eco'ers, none eco'ers, traders.....we need all types for the economy to evolve.

Just because people don't record their every pec and where it goes, does not imply they are gamblers. (That was a sweeping comment from me before.)

As i originally said, it is a state of mind, people see cheap, they buy. Just like two for one offers, in the supermarket.

It doesnt change the fact, that more people are decaying. The reason behind this is reduced markup on metal residue. Everything else is a knock on effect.


Rgds

Ace

EDIT: talk of the market and economy is always worth while, without it there would be no game
 
Gewitter said:
Then it's just a casino for these people, and in this case, any talk about the economy or MU's does not make sense. We just have to enjoy and profit from the gambling players. :laugh:
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Fact is there exist a lot of gamblers in EU.
Fact is crafting gamblers switched from amp crafting to explo crafting, saving the markups for the resources needed to gamble.
Fact is, some serious crafters still craft amps using the oversupply of residue produced by the gamblers, what leads to lower prices of amps.
Fact is lower prices in amps, leads to more gamblers in mining (amped mining).
Fact is the more gamblers in EU the better for MA/PP and investors.

Call it a casino, hell yes if you play like in a casino it is a casino.
For those who don´t like gambling don´t play like casino, those players play smart, maybe operating a business with a well overthought business plan.

Last group is concerned about:
- markups
- ingame economy
- options to profit/break even at low risk
- eco and balancing
and some other thinks.

The first group, don´t care at all, they are just seeking the big hit, nothing more.

And your last statement is all the truth about EU, smart players profit on the loss of gamblers.

All said!
 
GoNi said:
Fact is there exist a lot of gamblers in EU.
Fact is crafting gamblers switched from amp crafting to explo crafting, saving the markups for the resources needed to gamble.
Fact is, some serious crafters still craft amps using the oversupply of residue produced by the gamblers, what leads to lower prices of amps.
Fact is lower prices in amps, leads to more gamblers in mining (amped mining).
Fact is the more gamblers in EU the better for MA/PP and investors.

Call it a casino, hell yes if you play like in a casino it is a casino.
For those who don´t like gambling don´t play like casino, those players play smart, maybe operating a business with a well overthought business plan.

Last group is concerned about:
- markups
- ingame economy
- options to profit/break even at low risk
- eco and balancing
and some other thinks.

The first group, don´t care at all, they are just seeking the big hit, nothing more.

And your last statement is all the truth about EU, smart players profit on the loss of gamblers.

All said!
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Nicely said!

Rgds

Ace
 
I have no doubt that competition between players is now just escalated. I'm just trying to show you the example of the miners that a normal player (not a gambler) will not use the amps just because they are cheap. And he still wrap is that he has on their PED-card. So for him, nothing will change, except that it will be difficult to recoup their activities. I do not divide all players to black and white, and I agree that when I win - it means someone else lose.
 
Gewitter said:
I have no doubt that competition between players is now just escalated. I'm just trying to show you the example of the miners that a normal player (not a gambler) will not use the amps just because they are cheap. And he still wrap is that he has on their PED-card. So for him, nothing will change, except that it will be difficult to recoup their activities. I do not divide all players to black and white, and I agree that when I win - it means someone else lose.
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Last post on this, but one very real example.

I now amp a LOT more than i did pre-exp bps. Why? cause i earn more peds per hour this way, yes i have less markup, less profit per click, but the increased turnover gives me more profit per hour.

Rgds

Ace
 
Ace Flyster said:
Last post on this, but one very real example.

I now amp a LOT more than i did pre-exp bps. Why? cause i earn more peds per hour this way, yes i have less markup, less profit per click, but the increased turnover gives me more profit per hour.

Rgds

Ace
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I agree, and I used the amplifiers in the past, and use now. But the player who operates with a small amount of PED's are at risk much greater. Final MU for these players is most important.

You may want to know who these players? It's almost all beginners! ;)
 
Gewitter said:
I agree, and I used the amplifiers in the past, and use now. But the player who operates with a small amount of PED's are at risk much greater. Final MU for these players is most important.

You may want to know who these players? It's almost all beginners! ;)
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I have to say, i have been going back and forth as to long term effects of the expl bps.

But one thing that stuck with me, with these reduced markups, first time miners are getting a really hard deal

Rgds

Ace
 
GoNi said:
Fact is there exist a lot of gamblers in EU.
Fact is crafting gamblers switched from amp crafting to explo crafting, saving the markups for the resources needed to gamble.
Fact is, some serious crafters still craft amps using the oversupply of residue produced by the gamblers, what leads to lower prices of amps.
Fact is lower prices in amps, leads to more gamblers in mining (amped mining).
Fact is the more gamblers in EU the better for MA/PP and investors.

Call it a casino, hell yes if you play like in a casino it is a casino.
For those who don´t like gambling don´t play like casino, those players play smart, maybe operating a business with a well overthought business plan.

Last group is concerned about:
- markups
- ingame economy
- options to profit/break even at low risk
- eco and balancing
and some other thinks.

The first group, don´t care at all, they are just seeking the big hit, nothing more.

And your last statement is all the truth about EU, smart players profit on the loss of gamblers.

All said!
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Good post, and well said :)

+rep
 
Ace Flyster said:
I have to say, i have been going back and forth as to long term effects of the expl bps.

But one thing that stuck with me, with these reduced markups, first time miners are getting a really hard deal

Rgds

Ace
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As a miner I can agree with this... I thought I had it hard trying to break 118% to mine with lvl 5 amps two years ago, but this is a whole other ball game.

The problem for me is the large loot swings... The "old time" mining system that was put back in place in January of 2013 took away consistent returns, and now we have average returns of 75% if you remove all claims above XIV. Normally this is fine because a miner can average enough in markup to turn that 75% into 90%. But now it takes a much larger ped card to be able to hold out until a string of hofs.

I'm fine with garbage markup, but the TT return swings need to be more evened out then. I should never be able to go below 80% return planet side on 300+ drops with this bad markup.
 
Rocket192 said:
As a miner I can agree with this... I thought I had it hard trying to break 118% to mine with lvl 5 amps two years ago, but this is a whole other ball game.

The problem for me is the large loot swings... The "old time" mining system that was put back in place in January of 2013 took away consistent returns, and now we have average returns of 75% if you remove all claims above XIV. Normally this is fine because a miner can average enough in markup to turn that 75% into 90%. But now it takes a much larger ped card to be able to hold out until a string of hofs.

I'm fine with garbage markup, but the TT return swings need to be more evened out then. I should never be able to go below 80% return planet side on 300+ drops with this bad markup.
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Why would you filter out above XIV? Surely all loot forms your ongoing average?
 
AkiranBlade said:
I think people need to take stock of that fact that primarily, you're not supposed to profit on everything you do!

Markup on low-end highly available resource should always be low. Markup should only be larger on resources that contribute to the manufacture of useful (L) and/or rare (UL) items. Everything else is skilling material.
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For many of us, the possibility of profit is the only driving force behind playing EU... Let's be honest, the content is pretty much garbage now, events every other week with no pertainence to what's going on in the universe, buggy gameplay, unoptomized graphics and servers, and uber shared loot mobs ruining the need to build skills.

EU has become a mess.. The only thing that keeps many of us from playing other games is the chance to profit.
Why pay out of my a$$ to play a game for its bad content and lack of developer creativity?
 
AkiranBlade said:
Why would you filter out above XIV? Surely all loot forms your ongoing average?
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When I look at my own logs and remove the runs where I found claims above XIV I get a running average of 75% TT return. Other miners have confirmed this and you're free to pick apart the logs of other miners posted on pcf if you wish.
 
Why i should remove my claims above XIV? If I dont remove them I still get more then 90 % return and I am happy :yay:
 
Rocket192 said:
When I look at my own logs and remove the runs where I found claims above XIV I get a running average of 75% TT return. Other miners have confirmed this and you're free to pick apart the logs of other miners posted on pcf if you wish.
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If you omitted XX and above, I'd probably say fair enough. I think omitting anything below that is wrong. That's just my opinion on the matter, regardless of how many miners have accepted to omit more than they should to make it seem like they are getting a more raw deal than they actually are.
 
AkiranBlade said:
If you omitted XX and above, I'd probably say fair enough. I think omitting anything below that is wrong. That's just my opinion on the matter, regardless of how many miners have accepted to omit more than they should to make it seem like they are getting a more raw deal than they actually are.
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It was also clear to me with the "Large Mining Find" mission that 'larger' finds (of 250PED) are expected in this system.
 
Gewitter said:
Although if MA will change the balance (for example, will always loot only oil or lyst when mining, and the rest is rarely), then everything may rise in price.
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Yay, look! The same shit MA said when they introduced shrapnel!

Kim|Calypso said:
I am of the same opinion that it will take some time before the market adjusts and we will see the true effect of these changes. The purpose of having a high portion of TT food like ammo or shrapnel is to increase the markup of the stackables so were no longer stuck at like 102%, the portion of TT food will likely be tweaked a lot depending on the effect we see.


Also, since the hard-cap on stackables is in place on all planets we will see a strong effect on other planets as well, no more 20 000 PED stacks of a single oil on uber loots.
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Seems you both didn't played lately maybe?
 
dr3w said:
Yay, look! The same shit MA said when they introduced shrapnel!



Seems you both didn't played lately maybe?
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Mining shrapnel is coming, prepare yourself. Something like "probe fragments" transformed at 102% TT value.
 
Rocket192 said:
Mining shrapnel is coming, prepare yourself. Something like "probe fragments" transformed at 102% TT value.
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"Mining shrapnel" existing since mining tool Great Separation™ (done by our beloved Kim, by the way).

Since there was great reduce in enmatter demand due to enmatt amps absence - we got nice amounts of crappage like melchi for 103% (I remember it was 130% or so) and so on.

And to be honest, with current markups - no one can mine in profit, or it will be just breakeven, or really small profit. Way more efficiency is to collect bottles IRL.

So, there is no need for mining shrapnel anyway.
 
A lot of posters brought up mining. The biggest disparity in this game was mining, between the L amp users and the ones with UL amps. MA's main purpose for the explosive bp was to make L amps cheaper. Now L5 amps are 102%. L13's are half what they once were.

Finding 300 ped of lyst at 108% with a L13 at 150% lost you way more ped than finding 300 ped of lyst at 103% with a L13 at 130%

Sure the unamped miners and new players might look like they are getting screwed on paper, or upon initial inspection, but I have a feeling that it is not drastically affecting any of them as much as some say.

The main purpose was to close the gap on the UL v L amp disparity, and to lessen the cartels control over amp mu.

Truly, the hardest hit people are the UL amp owners. The value on a UL L5 for example was cut by more than half when the mu of the L L5 went from 108-9% to 102-3% (if it stays that way).
 
dr3w said:
"Mining shrapnel" existing since mining tool Great Separation™ (done by our beloved Kim, by the way).

Since there was great reduce in enmatter demand due to enmatt amps absence - we got nice amounts of crappage like melchi for 103% (I remember it was 130% or so) and so on.

And to be honest, with current markups - no one can mine in profit, or it will be just breakeven, or really small profit. Way more efficiency is to collect bottles IRL.

So, there is no need for mining shrapnel anyway.
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I joined EU too late to personally see the effects of separating ore and enmatter, but it would probably help drive up markups if they were separated again.

That would also reduce turnover/hour which would piss MA off though
 
Sunsout Gunsout said:
A lot of posters brought up mining. The biggest disparity in this game was mining, between the L amp users and the ones with UL amps. MA's main purpose for the explosive bp was to make L amps cheaper. Now L5 amps are 102%. L13's are half what they once were.

Finding 300 ped of lyst at 108% with a L13 at 150% lost you way more ped than finding 300 ped of lyst at 103% with a L13 at 130%

Sure the unamped miners and new players might look like they are getting screwed on paper, or upon initial inspection, but I have a feeling that it is not drastically affecting any of them as much as some say.

The main purpose was to close the gap on the UL v L amp disparity, and to lessen the cartels control over amp mu.

Truly, the hardest hit people are the UL amp owners. The value on a UL L5 for example was cut by more than half when the mu of the L L5 went from 108-9% to 102-3% (if it stays that way).
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I understand what you're saying.. and it has screwed over the general population of miners, new players and UL amp owners alike, while rewarding big amp gamblers.. You could never break the markup of a lvl13 amp regardless of their price and the ore/enmatter markups.

In the glory days of gazzurdite 2 years ago (125-135%) before big bulks became "non-evet" mobs you were better off paying 150% for a lvl 13 amp than paying 130% and finding gazz now (112% markup). So it's subjective really..

The main point is that markup of huge amps cannot be broken no matter what you do, so those players will lose, over and over again, much like explosive bp users, but maybe they just can't see it? Or maybe they're just too rich/dumb.. there isn't a difference to me.

I say we bring back "claim size V" system for mining and remove "improved loot" for hunting.. Sure way to make markups go up and make people happier. No sense in using lvl 13 amps if you can't get a tower :tongue2:
 
Rocket192 said:
I joined EU too late to personally see the effects of separating ore and enmatter, but it would probably help drive up markups if they were separated again.

That would also reduce turnover/hour which would piss MA off though
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The thing is - MA doesn't need profitable players. Not because they "danger" or something like that, no. It's just one of the cheapest ways to reduce expenses, and thus make profit bigger for MindArk.

All those "State of the Universe" and other excuses is just bullshit.

Business, nothing personal.

NYSE, CME, FOREX? <-- you know difference between those?
 
MU on everything is gonna be 100%

GG :(
 
Victoria said:
MU on everything is gonna be 100%

GG :(
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There are always opportunities for markup.

Hunt something or mine somewhere unusual. Then keep a note for next time.
 
Victoria said:
MU on everything is gonna be 100%

GG :(
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Normal players would just cash out at that point. Gamblers who don't care about markup would stay around though.
 
Rocket192 said:
Normal players would just cash out at that point. Gamblers who don't care about markup would stay around though.
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Isn't that happening allready?
 
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