NEWSFLASH: Posting auctions with crazy prices is ILLEGAL

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It's possible I've missed the point of this thread, if so put it down to tiredness. :zzz:


In the old, old past all auctions cost 1 ped to list whether you were listing:

Pixie shin for TT+1 (auction fee 1 ped)
Supremacy shin for TT+5000 (auction fee 1 ped)

Fair? No, so it was altered.


For the past 5+ years auction fee is a sliding scale so if you list things really expensive it'll cost up to 100 ped and not 1 ped (ESI sellers know this one only too well).


If you are asking for sanctions (temp bans of 1 month / 3 month / 6 month ... incrementing upwards) on the less than savoury scammers and chancers of our lovely universe, then I'm all for it.
 
Anybody selling anything with a value that exceeds the original price set by mindark or exceeds tt value is scamming and i encourage everybody to report these scammers.
 
MA will not ban people for this... Or anything really.. As shown in the past MA could give a shit less about scammers and exploiters. They only reason people have been banned is for buying/selling peds illegally, and for using 3rd party software.

They day MA starts banning players for something this trivial will be the death of EU. They are at the mercy of the players through decay and deposits. Banning a depositing player directly harms their bottom line.

I wish it could happen, but it just won't.. And so we have unwarranted exploitation and scams.
 
The example that's obvious is:

CLD x 10 - 15,000 PED
CLD x 10 - 15,000 PED
CLD x 01 - 15,000 PED

Still cant see it... I see there is "01" clearly written before 15 000.. Seller is not claiming that there are 10 deeds in this bulk. It is not against EULA to list something like this.

No item has written markup that must be followed. If seller somehow manages the bulk to show "10" over it, then yeah it is deceptive, but as long as there is clear "1" written in quantity box, there is nothing wrong.

Yes i also think it is not nice to do so, BUT even worse would be if MA started adding blockings to listing prices, as it would be the start of communism ingame. Why should regular sellers suffer from buyer mistakes?
 
Misleading sales price that is off a decimal point could be a mistake made by the seller. If it is someone that does it over and over then it is intentional. They should get temp ban then permanent ban if they do it again.

Problem though is if someone mistakenly purchases it at the high price the buyer could get a temp ban for market price manipulation.:dunce:


The moment MA steps in and starts to actually control the market that closely though it will no longer be an RCE. More like just RC with no real economy any more.
 
Misleading sales price that is off a decimal point could be a mistake made by the seller. If it is someone that does it over and over then it is intentional. They should get temp ban then permanent ban if they do it again.

Problem though is if someone mistakenly purchases it at the high price the buyer could get a temp ban for market price manipulation.:dunce:


The moment MA steps in and starts to actually control the market that closely though it will no longer be an RCE. More like just RC with no real economy any more.

Yup , and i think no buyer has ever gotten temp ban for buying something for too high price (unless he buys and gives back to seller, so they do it on purpose from MA point of view)
And i am sure if you list something at 10k and it sells, then it clearly shows that there is market for it, and seller can list it again at 10k. Yeah it is unethicla, but MA SHOULDNT do anything about that (atleast not like that)..

Maybe they should add start Auction fee based on BuyOut ? All fixed (on most of items, except deeds, which have max 10ped fee anyways)
 
For the auction part of the referenced EULA:

As I read this my interpretation is that it applies for systematic abuse of the auction, such as listing your stuff for high price and bidding or buying the item yourself or something.

I don't think we should have a "witch hunt" on people just listing their items for a high price, if the price is more than what people want to pay...then at least the seller have payed the auction fee and "support" the economy in one way.
 
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For the auction part of the referenced EULA:

As I read this my interpretation is that it applies for systematic abuse of the auction, such as listing your stuff for high price and bidding or buying the item yourself or something.

I don't think we should have a "witch hunt" on people just listing their items for a high price, if the price is more than what people want to pay...then at least the seller have payed the auction fee and "support" the economy in one way.

Listing for high price is not abuse. While buying your items yourself IS. (they are not the same thing)

Other than that i agree, witch hunt should stop, as it is bad for economy, and what is bad for economy is bad for MA, and what is bad for MA is bad for regular players.
 
Yea just now there was a gun i wanted in AH but the BO was above current market value.

Support case sent about the scammer.
 
By banning :censored: we would not interfere with the idea of a free market; we would protect it. The idea behind a free market stops working when people start to abuse it. By scamming for instance.

The market value on a free market is determined by the price where demand and supply meet. Pricing a CLD for 15000 is not about valuing it that high, but about either mistakes or scamming (which is the correct word based on dictionary definitions of scams). It is easy to separate between these two. There are even in real life limitations on how you may price or act on the market, it is called consumer protection.

Sure one could argue that people need to be careful: but :censored:!? Society takes care of all your asses outside the game, obviously there should be some safe guards inside it as well. Of course, everyone has a responsibility, but we dont want an environment where every player has to constantly be on his guard, where a scammer lurks behind every corner. Scamming should not be the norm. It should not be accepted in any form. What sort of impression do you guys think new players get? Evert attempt of a scam should result in a ban.

Regarding evidence; MA may, also per ToU which everyone accepted, at their sole discretion ban whoever they wish. A clearly abusive gameplay is easy to identify (and also breaks another part of the ToU). You can't easily prove stuff, but you don't need, as long as it is beyond reasonable doubt. Repedeatly baiting for mistakes is clearly abusive.

Regarding misleading; Our brains are fantastic creations but takes a lot of short cuts to be able to do what they do. That is why this sort of scam works.
 
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By banning cunts we would not interfere with the idea of a free market; we would protect it. The idea behind a free market stops working when people start to abuse it. By scamming for instance.

The market value on a free market is determined by the price where demand and supply meet. Pricing a CLD for 15000 is not about valuing it that high, but about either mistakes or scamming (which is the correct word based on dictionary definitions of scams). It is easy to separate between these two. There are even in real life limitations on how you may price or act on the market, it is called consumer protection.

Sure one could argue that people need to be careful: but fuck!? Society takes care of all your asses outside the game, obviously there should be some safe guards inside it as well. Of course, everyone has a responsibility, but we dont want an environment where every player has to constantly be on his guard, where a scammer lurks behind every corner. Scamming should not be the norm. It should not be accepted in any form. What sort of impression do you guys think new players get? Evert attempt of a scam should result in a ban.

Regarding evidence; MA may, also per ToU which everyone accepted, at their sole discretion ban whoever they wish. A clearly abusive gameplay is easy to identify (and also breaks another part of the ToU). You can't easily prove stuff, but you don't need, as long as it is beyond reasonable doubt. Repedeatly baiting for mistakes is clearly abusive.

Regarding misleading; Our brains are fantastic creations but takes a lot of short cuts to be able to do what they do. That is why this sort of scam works.

A fairly simple addition to the auction could help us not do mistakes like that:

- Upon executing a purchase, buyout or bid.
- Give the buyer a prompt or notice if bid is deviating X much from current market value (while still allowing you to place the bid of course if you want to)

And to make some new friends:)...if you accidentally buy something for 15k instead of 1.5k it kind of says allot about your ability to handle money.
 
A fairly simple addition to the auction could help us not do mistakes like that:

- Upon executing a purchase, buyout or bid.
- Give the buyer a prompt or notice if bid is deviating X much from current market value (while still allowing you to place the bid of course if you want to)

And to make some new friends:)...if you accidentally buy something for 15k instead of 1.5k it kind of says allot about your ability to handle money.

Making such an assumption tells more about your lack of knowledge in neurological processing rather than anyone's ability to handle money.

And that is still not the point; one should not allow abusive behavior. Baiting on auction is abusive behavior. It can be determined to such extent by analyzing patterns that more evidence is not needed. The behavior also breaks several rules.
 
The example that's obvious is:

CLD x 10 - 15,000 PED
CLD x 10 - 15,000 PED
CLD x 01 - 15,000 PED

I think this is a good example about the intention to deceive. Especially if you see this several times from the same person. So for me is very clear that I don't want to have anything to do with this type of character. It is my choice and therefore I put this type of user under my ignore avatar list. I don't know what else to do in order to avoid doing any kind of deal with them and I wish I had better options.
However due to reasons explained by many in here, I don't think there will be any kind of official regulation or official investigation about such cases.
The question from my side is how can i protect better from this type of person other than ignore avatar as this proves to be a tedious activity?
Thank you!
III Dusk MMM
 
u know what i hate? blind ppl who use auction.. then make threads like this on forums
 
You all keep talking about crazy prices, but can any of you please tell me how much can you sell gun for? Lets take something easy.

Igni 1010 and Igni 1011, IF Igni 1011 has markup 140% and igni 1010 has 120%, is it bad to list 1010 on auction at 140%? What if it is only one on auction? What if it has good tier rates? What if it has sentimental value?

The market value on a free market is determined by the price where demand and supply meet. Pricing a CLD for 15000 is not about valuing it that high, but about either mistakes or scamming
Where do you take this? Take for example real life. Two shops standing next to eachother, sell same producer Milk, one wants 1usd for gallon and other wants 10 usd for gallon. Maybe one has higher amounts in stock and needs to sell fast? Is the one who sells milk at 10 USD a scammer? I doubt.

And as you said price is determined by demand and supply, if auction is filled with lower prices, Surely no one can force buyer to buy at that crazy price.. BUT that does NOT force the seller to sell lower (just because everyone else does).

It is not how free economy works.. Free economy = Price is determined by seller, If buyer dont buy, Seller can reduce the price or increase the period of sale.

Easy example: i will start sellign sweat at 1ped per 10k , as it is the market price, should all the 1ped per 1k sellers be banned?

I have very often sold bps at 10 sometimes even 100 or 1000 times more than auction price. I determined that this bp is worth much more than previous sales, and buyer did so also. I am not scammer because i value my blueprint more than regular seller.

Or is what you all are trying to say is, that you cant sell CLD at 15 000 ped, but can sell at 14 000 and 16 000 ped, as it would be noticed by buyer more easiliy?
Buyer should always look at quantity and price, it is not the obligation of seller to double check if buyer wants to buy (quantity is clearly visible for all buyers)
 
Its a dick move, i don't think we need the EULA/TOS to explain that to us its blindingly obvious to most from the get go... besides MA is not gonna police the market either way so its a mute point anyway.
 
The example that's obvious is:

CLD x 10 - 15,000 PED
CLD x 10 - 15,000 PED
CLD x 01 - 14,950 PED

Fixed it for how the scam works.

Two above in auction are at normal market value and third one just under the other two is in appearance looking like it is a great offer so the player buys in a hurry before someone else does. Then they see it was 1 CLD not 10.:dunce:
So it is a scam based on how someone who resells will buy fast on what they see as a deal in auction.

This is not exact ped amounts but it is what I saw in auction when I was online last night. 10 CLD stacks being sold for 15k ped range and 1 CLD for 14.9k that listed right under the 10 CLD stacks.
 
Sceptic, you are wrong. EU is free market, and I can sell ML-35 for TT+20 PED or for TT+200000 PED.
Who can restrict me to do this? You? lol

So, I'm against any regulation of prices. Price is high for you? Do not buy. Stay away. And so on.
All others will sort out themselves.

All sales is legal and are no scam (except price manipulation between two or several players (re-selling with MU manipulation)), all other sales (fair sales) are no EULA violation and so on.

Just silly thread, my friend.
 
Sceptic, you are wrong. EU is free market, and I can sell ML-35 for TT+20 PED or for TT+200000 PED.
Who can restrict me to do this? You? lol

So, I'm against any regulation of prices. Price is high for you? Do not buy. Stay away. And so on.
All others will sort out themselves.

All sales is legal and are no scam (except price manipulation between two or several players (re-selling with MU manipulation)), all other sales (fair sales) are no EULA violation and so on.

Just silly thread, my friend.

NO!

You are allowed to sell me an item with a higher price, you are however not allowed to sell an item at a higher price with the sole intention to scam someone.

Example;

List CLD at 15k because you think that is what they are worth = Legit

List CLD at 15k hoping that someone will buy it by mistake = Not legit

Whichever it is can easily be determined by analyzing patterns in the sellers behavior.
 
NO!

You are allowed to sell me an item with a higher price, you are however not allowed to sell an item at a higher price with the sole intention to scam someone.

I do not see the difference.

Added: If I sell ML for 200k its a scam? If you answer YES, it is NOT a free market. Maybe someone wanted to get ML so much, that he paid 200 thousand. Why not?
 
I do not see the difference.

If I sell ML for 200k is a scam?

Check my post again, I added an example.

Edit:

The difference is the following - If you value your item very high and decide that is the price you want to sell for, you can do that in a free market. However, if a transaction takes place, that would be based on a mutual appraisal where the buyer would value the item just as high as you. However, you are not allowed to sell your item at that value with the intention to trick someone into buying it. That is NOT a condition for it to be a free market.
 
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Example;

List CLD at 15k because you think that is what they are worth = Legit

List CLD at 15k hoping that someone will buy it by mistake = Not legit

Whichever it is can easily be determined by analyzing patterns in the sellers behavior.

The basis, at which you form your conclusions, lies at the level of perception of the individual, rather than legal terms, and therefore can not be applied in this case about scam. 'Hoping' - is not a scam, and cannot be punished.
 
The basis, at which you form your conclusions, lies at the level of perception of the individual, rather than legal terms, and therefore can not be applied in this case about scam. 'Hoping' - is not a scam, and cannot be punished.

Yes, it is a scam. Because I looked up the definition before making an OP.

If your intention is to pray on someones mistake, you are playing dirty, which in turn means you violate all the three rules in the OP to some extent.
 
Yes, it is a scam. Because I looked up the definition before making an OP.

If your intention is to pray on someones mistake, you are playing dirty, which in turn means you violate all the three rules in the OP to some extent.

No, EULA will not help here.
Maybe I put the high BO price because I like to see this BO. I'm not going to deceive anyone. But suddenly something will change for the week and they will grow tenfold. You can guarantee that the price will not be changed? And I already foresaw the situation. All can be interpreted as I wish, and it will not be a scam. Just be careful when you make a purchase. Also, very few people will support you, because you're trying to thus limit the free market. All said.
 
No, EULA will not help here.
Maybe I put the high BO price because I like to see this BO. I'm not going to deceive anyone. But suddenly something will change for the week and they will grow tenfold. You can guarantee that the price will not be changed? And I already foresaw the situation. All can be interpreted as I wish, and it will not be a scam. Just be careful when you make a purchase. Also, very few people will support you, because you're trying to thus limit the free market. All said.

I'm not trying to limit the free market. I am trying to remove the scammers from it.

And in your example it would be alright, because you are worried price will inflate. But you DONT do it to scam someone which would be the difference.
 
@WhiningSkeptic

I do not support misleading auctions in any way but selling your interpretation of the eula as a newsflash is giving me giggles. Mindark does nothing against this kind of scams, why you declare something illegal that's not punished by mindark and where was the point it became the users responsibility to interpret the eula and declare something illegal ? I have the feeling you try to be more holy than the pope in that case. No offence meant
 
I'm not trying to limit the free market. I am trying to remove the scammers from it.

And in your example it would be alright, because you are worried price will inflate. But you DONT do it to scam someone which would be the difference.

If someone buys my lot, but the prices will not change, in your words this is a scam. But this is not scam, it is the buyer's choice. Free choice without coercion or manipulation.
 
If someone buys my lot, but the prices will not change, in your words this is a scam. But this is not scam, it is the buyer's choice. Free choice without coercion or manipulation.

The idea is based on manipulation; By praying on the fact that people do mistakes. And why do people do mistakes? Because they want to? No. Because brains are not perfect, and takes short cuts. It is 100% possible to read the initial 1 as a 10, on top of which the offered price usually is low enough to make people do things spontaneously, hence decreasing the accuracy of their brains interpretation of the surroundings. It is all dirty tricks. Mistakes are made, no matter how careful you are.

PEOPLE FORGET THEIR CHILDREN IN CARS OVER FULL DAYS BECAUSE OF BRAIN MALFUNCTIONS. THEN THE KIDS DIE. DO YOU THINK THIS IS DONE ON PURPOSE? IS IT ALLRIGHT!? CAN THE PARENT BLAME NOONE BUT HIM- OR HERSELF!? IS THE KID TO BLAME!?

If you forget your kid in a car so it dies, you can definitaley misinterpret such a situation no matter how careful you are and end up being scammed. Interesting fact; EVERYONE is capable of both during the right circumstances.

If you, aim to capitalize on someones mistake, you are a scammer and you are breaking the rules.
 
@WhiningSkeptic

I do not support misleading auctions in any way but selling your interpretation of the eula as a newsflash is giving me giggles. Mindark does nothing against this kind of scams, why you declare something illegal that's not punished by mindark and where was the point it became the users responsibility to interpret the eula and declare something illegal ? I have the feeling you try to be more holy than the pope in that case. No offence meant

Please explain how scamming does not interfere with anyones enjoyment of the game, their enjoyment of the trade functions and how it is not misleading.
 
By praying on the fact that people do mistakes.

Maybe good point. But...

Possible answers why the purchase was made at a higher price:
- The buyer was drunk
- The buyer was sniffing cocaine
- The buyer was slept
- The buyer was in a hurry
- The buyer is an idiot
- The buyer is spender
- The buyer loves me and would like to make a gift
- The buyer was (is) ... your option ...
... is not a prerequisite for the announcement of the transaction null and void or the recognition the seller as a scammer, or EULA violation. All trades is final.

But I wish you good luck in your crusade :laugh:

Added:
Mistakes are made, no matter how careful you are.

Well, then tell me why I did not do these mistakes? For 8 years?

And the example with the children even more stupid. I can not imagine those irresponsible people. They do not have to live amongst us, they must be isolated from normal people. But if these people have decided to play in the EU, then let him suffer and would pay for all. Hmm, also, from where these people taken their money for playing?
 
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