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How one small exploit ruined all Entropia market in 3 years.

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Sunsout Gunsout said:
Ok starting the stream...will get dropping in a bit

http://www.twitch.tv/tacotuesdaytv
Click to expand...

I just had to watch the whole stream. Look you did prove yourself wrong but at least you were honest when you were thinking you were getting smaller claim then usual. I mean why would you do a live stream if you didnt? +rep for this.

I dont think you need to apologize to anyone you did a big thing here and what i love about it is that you didnt give MA the time to fix it and go public with a statement "it didnt affect loot everyone is safe" bla bla bla and cover their asses.

You did what everyone else was just chatting about, respect for this.
 
StefanT said:
you didnt give MA the time to fix it and go public with a statement "it didnt affect loot everyone is safe" bla bla bla and cover their asses.

You did what everyone else was just chatting about, respect for this.
Click to expand...
first,the "didnt give ma time to fix?" if you dont believe they should fix it, then why say that?

second, it didnt effect everyones loot? YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT! thats not what he proved with the streaming today. he proved that the last drop (20 ped tt) left of a level 13 amp will produce same effect as lvl 13 amp that still has 3 drops, when triple dropping on arkadia for en mat, ores, treasure.

and we know you're full of sht because you fill your post with crap like blah bla bla..
for us who are concerned, this is a real problem, and MA needs to assure the players, by making a statement if it's legit or a bug that needs to be fixed.
 
Ok will post soon, i need to eat something...
 
infamousH4 said:
first,the "didnt give ma time to fix?" if you dont believe they should fix it, then why say that?

second, it didnt effect everyones loot? YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT! thats not what he proved with the streaming today. he proved that the last drop (20 ped tt) left of a level 13 amp will produce same effect as lvl 13 amp that still has 3 drops, when triple dropping on arkadia for en mat, ores, treasure.

and we know you're full of sht because you fill your post with crap like blah bla bla..
for us who are concerned, this is a real problem, and MA needs to assure the players, by making a statement if it's legit or a bug that needs to be fixed.
Click to expand...

I dont understand your attitude here really you must have some rl problems to be commenting like this. I think this should be fixed but now ppl know how their money is unsafe with MA. I guess a short answer for you would be, im just glad its not covered up and should be fixed. Get it now???

I do know that it effects everyones loot, where do you think money comes from when players use a bug like this and constantly profit??? Do you think aliens give MA money and they give it to players when they withdraw??? I wont. Reply to any more of your posts like this sorry but seems your iq is low.
 
+rep for kestukas for trying and +for sunsout that hopefully learned a lesson AND was open enough to test in public.

Maybe its supposed to work like this, then I wanna buy UL finder :D
 
StefanT said:
I just had to watch the whole stream. Look you did prove yourself wrong but at least you were honest when you were thinking you were getting smaller claim then usual. I mean why would you do a live stream if you didnt? +rep for this.

I dont think you need to apologize to anyone you did a big thing here and what i love about it is that you didnt give MA the time to fix it and go public with a statement "it didnt affect loot everyone is safe" bla bla bla and cover their asses.

You did what everyone else was just chatting about, respect for this.
Click to expand...

Damn this shi* was so hard to fix in 3 years time so we better wait another 3 :dunce:
 
Don't really think the stream proved an exploit. He lost a CONSIDERABLE amount of peds. I see this only being a problem if you are getting an overage hit rate (34% triple drops) or MAYBE catch a multiplier and hit a huge hof disproportionately to the amount of input on your alt (which is forbidden anyway) in indoor logic.. but we know that will likely end up in an NRF.

What was not proven (or maybe it was), is if the unbalance of the last drop is somehow offset from all the NRFs one might find. For all we know this is an intended mechanic. In most cases, people will end up paying for all the NRFs drawing the amps down to 20ped.

I would like to see Mindark's response to this but I am not worried about whatever impacts might have happened as a result.
 
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atomicstorm said:
Don't really think the stream proved an exploit. He lost a CONSIDERABLE amount of peds. I see this only being a problem if you are getting an overage hit rate (34% triple drops) or MAYBE catch a multiplier and hit a huge hof disproportionately to the amount of input on your alt (which is forbidden anyway) in indoor logic.. but we know that will likely end up in an NRF.

What was not proven (or maybe it was), is if the unbalance of the last drop is somehow offset from all the NRFs one might find. For all we know this is an intended mechanic. In most cases, people will end up paying for all the NRFs drawing the amps down to 20ped.
Click to expand...

What happens when a crafter gets a ton of this at 50 60 ped approx without using residue and just drops until 20 + ped and then trip drops them all?

To me this is a serious mistake on behalf of MA, idk i might be wrong but seems that way.
 
StefanT said:
What happens when a crafter gets a ton of this at 50 60 ped approx without using residue and just drops until 20 + ped and then trip drops them all?

To me this is a serious mistake on behalf of MA, idk i might be wrong but seems that way.
Click to expand...

Well, given the markup lost from the amp.. the crafter would be a fool. There are only a few people who can make level 13s anyway. They are easy to keep tabs on. Although, this mechanic is not isolated to level 13s.. it is on all amps. I just don't think it is one of those things that are allowing people to profit endlessly.
 
atomicstorm said:
Don't really think the stream proved an exploit. He lost a CONSIDERABLE amount of peds. I see this only being a problem if you are getting an overage hit rate (34% triple drops) or MAYBE catch a multiplier and hit a huge hof disproportionately to the amount of input on your alt (which is forbidden anyway) in indoor logic.. but we know that will likely end up in an NRF.

What was not proven (or maybe it was), is if the unbalance of the last drop is somehow offset from all the NRFs one might find. For all we know this is an intended mechanic. In most cases, people will end up paying for all the NRFs drawing the amps down to 20ped.

I would like to see Mindark's response to this but I am not worried about whatever impacts might have happened as a result.
Click to expand...

So if applied to an UL high level amp, repair enough for that magic last drop.......rinse and repeat?? Still not exploit??? Im not sure, none of us can be but it tickles a little to me and seems a tad bit strange.

Anyhow turned out pretty fun and I think its great with some transpiracy and an active community helping out to try and find faults, and hopefully next time spoken in better manners from all parts to make the reading less painfull.
 
atomicstorm said:
Well, given the markup lost from the amp.. the crafter would be a fool. There are only a few people who can make level 13s anyway. They are easy to keep tabs on. Although, this mechanic is not isolated to level 13s.. it is on all amps. I just don't think it is one of those things that are allowing people to profit endlessly.
Click to expand...

Very possible that you are right i cant know for sure. Well it needs a fix anyway and not to mention it should not have happened at all, especially with one of the most expensives clicks in game :S

Anyway im off to bed and sunsout did a big test today and it costed him some ped so enormous respect for this.
 
StefanT said:
What happens when a crafter gets a ton of this at 50 60 ped approx without using residue and just drops until 20 + ped and then trip drops them all?

To me this is a serious mistake on behalf of MA, idk i might be wrong but seems that way.
Click to expand...

I guess you are not a crafter... what FOOL would want to make partial TT amps? Residue is almost free, and you cannot get the right MU on an almost dead amp.

so... you think someone would spend 25+ ped per click to get an almost dead amp? ok, so lets say its a LvL 13 amp, lets call it 65 ped per click of materials to run said amp.... most crafting runs are bench marked at 30%... <below sux, above rox> so 65 x 3 = 195 peds to craft your "low tt" wonder...

Why spend time trying to start shit with a profession you guys know nothing about? Most of the posters in this thread are trolls, just fapping their ego's. As funny as it is, I don't think this thread really needed 40+ pages, It is just sad really...
 
Chuck Wholrey said:
I guess you are not a crafter... what FOOL would want to make partial TT amps? Residue is almost free, and you cannot get the right MU on an almost dead amp.

so... you think someone would spend 25+ ped per click to get an almost dead amp? ok, so lets say its a LvL 13 amp, lets call it 65 ped per click of materials to run said amp.... most crafting runs are bench marked at 30%... <below sux, above rox> so 65 x 3 = 195 peds to craft your "low tt" wonder...

Why spend time trying to start shit with a profession you guys know nothing about? Most of the posters in this thread are trolls, just fapping their ego's. As funny as it is, I don't think this thread really needed 40+ pages, It is just sad really...
Click to expand...

Sorry i could have made the wrong assumption here i never crafted lvl 13 offcourse you dont have to be rude.
 
StefanT said:
Sorry i could have made the wrong assumption here i never crafted lvl 13 offcourse you dont have to be rude.
Click to expand...

Not trying to be rude, but this whole thread is people posting about things they have no idea about...
 
krogfan said:
So if applied to an UL high level amp, repair enough for that magic last drop.......rinse and repeat?? Still not exploit??? Im not sure, none of us can be but it tickles a little to me and seems a tad bit strange.

Anyhow turned out pretty fun and I think its great with some transpiracy and an active community helping out to try and find faults, and hopefully next time spoken in better manners from all parts to make the reading less painfull.
Click to expand...

Well that certainly is both boring and possible. I don't have a UL amp to test. it would be interesting if we did a huge test with it.. seems like we could see if personal loot pools really exist with it. It would exist if the tt still balanced over say 1 million ped cycled. But it would take forever.
 
Ok, so here is what I saw.

Kestukis, was probably right. At least about the full ampage occurring. There I said it. I feel that it is still a function of tt in vs out, and in the end it won't provide much advantage. Heck, res is tt food now, and you get 100 ped mu if you craft it full tt in this current market. So making them at minimum condition is silly if you are only gaining 40 ped anyhow. I don't see this being an exploit. It might be to trade them to alts, because I think alts are, but I will not say this is an exploit for any of us to do it. Like I said I think the tt out is going to be what it is no matter what you do in this game. It takes what it wants no matter what you do.

I will say that it certainly doesn't seem to function like I thought it would. The amps I saw in the past always led me to believe that the last drop was lower, and therefore the game was giving back smaller amounts on those last drops. Perhaps this was a function of me not doing enough double or triple drops with L 13s in the past, and also likely getting the smaller half-claims coincidentally on the last drop. Either way, I never saw enough to believe what the OP said. But today I think I did. I won't apologize for saying what I saw in the past, because that's what I saw, wrong or right. Of course I apologize for swear words and the name calling, but it just pissed me off so much to be called an exploiter simply because I believed that the game was dealing with the low tt final drop in a proper way. I truly thought that. It seems I was probably wrong.

Also, I just lost a ton to test this, so I hope that shows that I do care about getting to the bottom of this issue and finding out the truth since MA refused to, and the OP didn't offer any.

Anyways here were the results:

10 L 13's full tt and 2 20 ped tt one I got from someone who wanted to help the test.
4550 amp cost and like 180 in probes and decay. ( I didn't watch these costs closely as I was too sidetracked and trying to get shit done)

So rough cost was 4730...I got back 2282 tt plus a 32 ped sword with around 520 mu. So about 2834 back plus the mu of the stones.

45 were regular size claims varying between 45 ped and 86, most were 55-60. 4 claims were the smaller than normal half-claims that we see occasionally. As I said in the thread earlier, I tend to see those half claims every 2-3 amps.

However, I fully expected much smaller drops to occur very commonly on the final drops. This didn't happen.

For the 12 amps that I triple dropped with 20 ped remaining tt, (done in 2 groups of 6) the results were:
1. NRF
2. 45 ped Angelic 48 Gang 65 chem
3. 63 ped chemset
4. 63 ped chemset
5. NRF
6. 66 Garcen
7. 33 Aarkan, 48 Garcen, and a Dehera Immolation with 32 tt...(this tt presumable comes from the aarkan find which explains why this one find was smaller.)
8. 66 Lida
9. NRF
10. 86 Khor
11. NRF
12. NRF

What this shows is exactly opposite of what I thought. They all seemed to be in the normal range of find size for a regular drop on that amp.

Yes it is still a small sample size...but tbh, it seems that the last drops are fully amping even when 20 tt remains.

The benefit to this...I doubt it is as great as OP claims. All you do with L13's is lose your ass. I think any avatars returns are still what they would be with that amp regardless. I have NEVER hit a big claim with a L13, and from all I see, most ATH's are with L5's 7's and stuff like that....Idk. Either way I think that there may be something that needs an explanation from MA and that's why I did this test.

L13's suck, and I would never use them again after this shit, even if there is extra drops there at the end. 40 ped isn't worth the 100 ped mu per amp. I have never got a good hit with them...maybe that's because the L13 loot pool is so sparse due to people crafting them at 50 tt and doing what the OP says. :)

Either way, that fucking sucked. I am tired and I will prob add more to this later, but for now I just want to go punch the wall.
 
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<removed>

On topic:

So unlimited amp + portable repair terminal = 2 free amperages on every drop? Or is more data needed.

It seems to me the only way to prove anything, you would need to disprove the exploit working by consistently getting lower than expected finds when you had multiple claims on triple drops (double drops would work too, if you want to test with less expense).

Taco's way of only taking into account big finds seems like you would need a much larger data set since luck can give you larger claims and make average finds look higher than expected.

Drop numbers 2 and 7 are an indicator that the exploit is true, but they don't prove it since they could just be lucky larger finds like drop number 10.

I think if you drop enough and never recieve a lower than expected find on a double or triple hit, that would prove it (mostly).

Of course just doing the drops is testing both ways and a fairly small sample size of multi-drops with multi-hits would make it easy to say that the exploit is probably true.

Oh, and I do believe that it is true just from Taco's small sample, but 2 multi-hits isn't a big enough sampling to prove it.
 
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Sunsout Gunsout said:
Ok, so here is what I saw.

Kestukis, was probably right. At least about the full ampage occurring. There I said it. I feel that it is still a function of tt in vs out, and in the end it won't provide much advantage. Heck, res is tt food now, and you get 100 ped mu if you craft it full tt in this current market. So making them at minimum condition is silly if you are only gaining 40 ped anyhow. I don't see this being an exploit. It might be to trade them to alts, because I think alts are, but I will not say this is an exploit for any of us to do it. Like I said I think the tt out is going to be what it is no matter what you do in this game. It takes what it wants no matter what you do.

I will say that it certainly doesn't seem to function like I thought it would. The amps I saw in the past always led me to believe that the last drop was lower, and therefore the game was giving back smaller amounts on those last drops. Perhaps this was a function of me not doing enough double or triple drops with L 13s in the past, and also likely getting the smaller half-claims coincidentally on the last drop. Either way, I never saw enough to believe what the OP said. But today I think I did. I won't apologize for saying what I saw in the past, because that's what I saw, wrong or right. Of course I apologize for swear words and the name calling, but it just pissed me off so much to be called an exploiter simply because I believed that the game was dealing with the low tt final drop in a proper way. I truly thought that. It seems I was probably wrong.

Also, I just lost a ton to test this, so I hope that shows that I do care about getting to the bottom of this issue and finding out the truth since MA refused to, and the OP didn't offer any.

Anyways here were the results:

10 L 13's full tt and 2 20 ped tt one I got from someone who wanted to help the test.
4550 amp cost and like 180 in probes and decay. ( I didn't watch these costs closely as I was too sidetracked and trying to get shit done)

So rough cost was 4730...I got back 2282 tt plus a 32 ped sword with around 520 mu. So about 2834 back plus the mu of the stones.

45 were regular size claims varying between 45 ped and 86, most were 55-60. 4 claims were the smaller than normal half-claims that we see occasionally. As I said in the thread earlier, I tend to see those half claims every 2-3 amps.

However, I fully expected much smaller drops to occur very commonly on the final drops. This didn't happen.

For the 12 amps that I triple dropped with 20 ped remaining tt, (done in 2 groups of 6) the results were:
1. NRF
2. 45 ped Angelic 48 Gang 65 chem
3. 63 ped chemset
4. 63 ped chemset
5. NRF
6. 66 Garcen
7. 33 Aarkan, 48 Garcen, and a Dehera Immolation with 32 tt...(this tt presumable comes from the aarkan find which explains why this one find was smaller.)
8. 66 Lida
9. NRF
10. 86 Khor
11. NRF
12. NRF

What this shows is exactly opposite of what I thought. They all seemed to be in the normal range of find size for a regular drop on that amp.

Yes it is still a small sample size...but tbh, it seems that the last drops are fully amping even when 20 tt remains.

The benefit to this...I doubt it is as great as OP claims. All you do with L13's is lose your ass. I think any avatars returns are still what they would be with that amp regardless. I have NEVER hit a big claim with a L13, and from all I see, most ATH's are with L5's 7's and stuff like that....Idk. Either way I think that there may be something that needs an explanation from MA and that's why I did this test.

L13's suck, and I would never use them again after this shit, even if there is extra drops there at the end. 40 ped isn't worth the 100 ped mu per amp. I have never got a good hit with them...maybe that's because the L13 loot pool is so sparse due to people crafting them at 50 tt and doing what the OP says. :)

Either way, that fucking sucked. I am tired and I will prob add more to this later, but for now I just want to go punch the wall.
Click to expand...

Very interesting. And you got 11 hits in 12 drops which is somewhat close to expected hitrate. We need more testing though.

If OP turns out to actually be right about the exploit, I'm surprised. Essentially, use any big enough UL amp and go to ark for break even mining. Perhaps this is why we don't have UL L13?

Well; Thanks to OP for providing the info (even though I'd happily something to back it up next time and not presenting ridiculous scenarios) and Taco for testing. Question is: Will everyone grab amps and try to exploit this now like with every other exploit?
 
When i got up today, first mind to my head was, i wish you was right, than i will receive a xxx -reps but game and community will be happy that exploit never happened.

second thought was - "since taco first post was how he hates me and call me an idiot" i wanted you to see in your eyes what is really happening.

this test was proven already 2 days ago , and 2 people done it and gived me results, but after you started to -rep all, they afraided to give public answer , because was afraid of people reaction , because was my friends.
and you still could say they idiots, like you did to tamossiunas+

to be more clear one my friend even repeated support in 2015.01.31 but got and answer only in 2015.03.01 that it was forwarded to repsonsable team.

imo this exploit was not fixed because mindark even not receive correct informtion from support.
Since support is responsable for information collecting and forwarding. could be that this exploit never reached real mindark emploees, and stuck in supports trash.

to Tacotuesday :

i hoped you recorded your video, maby i just dont find a link ?



this "Fairy tail" was actually not from my head, it contained maby alot of real facts, maby there is actually exploiters with not "lvl13" amps but with regular ones, including "ul amp users"

but your trolling and your friends like 'dr3w" who is actually has that 7 ul amp and could do it all time, and what you all do is tryed to punch me down to ground shouting how you are right.

I hope ma will fix it soon as possible now, since it received so many attention, and somehow forces to pay thoes "exploiters" and fix a problem.
than maby game will start to rize again.


Ofcourse this thread revealed more actions and unfair game styles by developing inside :


1. dr3w had lvl7 amp for example and knew this whole time, that shows that even he could exploit with ul amp , "100% thinking that i say bullhit" because he do it all time and get proffits "normally, because this is not exploiting"
that is why he started to sell out as fast as possible selling his ul amp for peds only in1 week.

2. it showed that from amp decayable to 0tt, it revealed unfair gameplay because miners can destroy amp unusable tt and hunters cannot. they have to TT all guns, faps with minimal tt losing mu on left tt, when miners can mine to 0tt almost all amps.


3. only for 5 lvl amp exploit is not working, all others can "take fantom tt" and no need using lvl 13 , since people mining anyway they just get an ADVANTAGE to do last drop from someones others money.


4. Mindarks CEO should meet support departament and talk ceriously about information they filter , and how this not made priority because only 2 people wrote about this ?


5. After this thread started i counted like 5 trolls that shoulnt been here, and exactly showed how low morality they are just by tryeing to troll all post, and unofficially trying to cover exploit existance.


Ending for now.
Thankyou tacotuesday for test, it ended endless bullshiting in this thread.
But i still not cappy by your post because when you "did not knew" you acted verry straight.
and now when you tested your self, you use "maby " word in every sentence trying to cover your bullshiting and using "big words", instead of normal human apolorgize for 30+ bullshit posts u made only lieing to people how it works.

and if you sayd you did not lied , than imagine how i feel when you call me a lier if we both was in same situation - believing in our words.
 
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ktpsmf said:
When i got up today, first mind to my head was, i wish you was right, than i will receive a xxx -reps but game and community will be happy that exploit never happened.

second thought was - "since taco first post was how he hates me and call me an idiot" i wanted you to see in your eyes what is really happening.

this test was proven already 2 days ago , and 2 people done it and gived me results, but after you started to -rep all, they afraided to give public answer , because was afraid of people reaction , because was my friends.
and you still could say they idiots, like you did to tamossiunas+

to be more clear one my friend eeven repeated support in 2015.01.31 but got and answer only in 2015.03.01 that it was forwarded to repsonsable team.

imo this exploit was not fixed because mindark even not receive correct informtion from support.
Since support is responsable for information collecting and forwarding. could be that this exploit never reached real mindark emploees, and stuck in supports trash.

to Tacotuesday :

i hoped you recorded your video, maby i just dont find a link ?
Click to expand...

I believe the video should be available at same link as the stream.
 
I still do not believe there is cause for concern but we all have different opinions of how the game works so I will not go to far in to it.
 
Taco lost because he droped quite a few full TT level 13 amps (which is still a big gamble). If he had droped ONLY the 20 PED TT he would have profited probably.

So I still think this is an exploit in all its glory. Don't discard it just because he had a bad run.

Thanks for doing this, and thanks for streaming it and being honest.
 
ktpsmf said:
1. dr3w had lvl7 amp for example and knew this whole time, that shows that even he could exploit with ul amp , "100% thinking that i say bullhit" because he do it all time and get proffits "normally, because this is not exploiting"
that is why he started to sell out as fast as possible selling his ul amp for peds only in1 week.

2. it showed that from amp decayable to 0tt, it revealed unfair gameplay because miners can destroy amp unusable tt and hunters cannot. they have to TT all guns, faps with minimal tt losing mu on left tt, when miners can mine to 0tt almost all amps.


3. only for 5 lvl amp exploit is not working, all others can "take fantom tt" and no need using lvl 13 , since people mining anyway they just get an ADVANTAGE to do last drop from someones others money.


4. Mindarks CEO should meet support departament and talk ceriously about information they filter , and how this not made priority because only 2 people wrote about this ?


5. After this thread started i counted like 5 trolls that shoulnt been here, and exactly showed how low morality they are just by tryeing to troll all post, and unofficially trying to cover exploit existance.
Click to expand...


While I appreciate that people found out there is in fact exploit, and I understand you were not in easy situation to fight with people here, few things are still not adding up, and the motivation behind you to go and make this thread is still pretty unknown.

For now, you forgot number 6 in your list

- WSS gang knowing this for 3 years and for some strange reason being silent about it :D


@Taco - Felt asleep yesterday during you stream, but thanks for doing this :)
 
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