Petition to remove Explosive BPs (or change them)

Moonbiter said:

Agreed, you can go after rares. But realistically how many areas contain something like gold or redu? And meanwhile fresh miner starting out, has no chance for break even (let alone profit) while still exploring areas and skilling up to level high enough to use deep finders for rares.

Click to expand...

A new hunter starting with Daiki youngs steping up to Berycleds then some Argos, got a chance to break even on MUs looted ?

A new crafter starting with Basic Filters (or Explo I) to unlock BPC then starts to craft other things like F-101, Alekz Precision, Arber Sights, ManMPH, Settler Armor, L2 amps and so on to get skills in a crafting field that offers some option for profit/break even, can profit from MU while skilling to his goal ?

Come on!

Experienced Miners, can go for rars, they know where it is in the grounds, and they know what gear is needed to find it.
New miners need to learn, where to find what, and they have to learn what gear to use to find what.

We all had to learn how EU works, how we should do things.
We all had to pay in that learning process and even as medium/high skilled player, we still have to learn and adapt to actual changes.

There exist a lot of guides new players can use, for every proffession.
If new players are to lazy to look into this guides, and to lazy to look for a mentor with knowledge, well very like will lose more than needed.
It is an RCE everybody needs to do his homework and learn to survive in this 90% return universe.
Its hard to survive, very challanging, thats why I am still here, I like challange.
If I would prefer all easy UBER in 14 days, I would play WoW

Signed, Jerry Wollongong

Sign me on, too. (Keztrell Kez Aviade)

I only started playing again in Nov last year (I played for a little bit in late 2010 on a different account, but left due to RL), so I guess I'm a relative noob now, but I still have a stake in this debate, as it affects me, too. I have deposited twice this year, but I'm already regretting that second one, and won't be again until I can see things improving.

I play almost every day and often for many hours at a time. I like mining. A lot. As a new player, I don't make much from it, but it used to be just enough. Now, I can barely maintain a PED balance over 10 PED; I can't afford to mine anymore (my last 50 mining ped attempt got me a return of 20 ped, so yeah). I understand the market and returns fluctuate, but to go from 70-80% regular returns for a couple months to averaging under 50%...? I also do a bit of hunting, which is now my only source of income - mostly from TTing most of the non-shrapnel loot because I just don't have enough to try selling it any other way, and I need to buy ammo with something.

Usually I do craft a little bit, I make a few textures, and try out some of the BPs that I have the mats for, from hunting and mining and it's kinda fun watching the 30 or so attempts and watching my skills creep up; every now and then I score a BP. You know what's not fun? EP crafting. I tried out a 20 ped run on EP1....BORING. I don't know how people can stand it. I left it running and went off to do something else. That is not playing a game, that's like running a bot to farm for you. It looks like EU has actually made botting a legit profession here. Congrats EU.

Anyway, the fact that crafting that BP is boring as bat s**t, has nothing to do with he fact that it seems to be destroying the economy piece by piece. I'll admit that I am no expert on the EU economy but when prominent, active, long term players are worried, it worries me. And it should worry you, too. I'd be interested to know if any people that make a living (or part of one) off this game still can, or are their profits as dwindling as the rest of us?

<removed>

GoNi said:

A new hunter starting with Daiki youngs steping up to Berycleds then some Argos, got a chance to break even on MUs looted ?

A new crafter starting with Basic Filters (or Explo I) to unlock BPC then starts to craft other things like F-101, Alekz Precision, Arber Sights, ManMPH, Settler Armor, L2 amps and so on to get skills in a crafting field that offers some option for profit/break even, can profit from MU while skilling to his goal ?

Come on!

Experienced Miners, can go for rars, they know where it is in the grounds, and they know what gear is needed to find it.
New miners need to learn, where to find what, and they have to learn what gear to use to find what.

We all had to learn how EU works, how we should do things.
We all had to pay in that learning process and even as medium/high skilled player, we still have to learn and adapt to actual changes.

There exist a lot of guides new players can use, for every proffession.
If new players are to lazy to look into this guides, and to lazy to look for a mentor with knowledge, well very like will lose more than needed.
It is an RCE everybody needs to do his homework and learn to survive in this 90% return universe.
Its hard to survive, very challanging, thats why I am still here, I like challange.
If I would prefer all easy UBER in 14 days, I would play WoW

Click to expand...

And again arguing between professions....
You say miners have better than crafters/hunters,lets say you are right why not to then those 3 steps:

1.Remove nanocubes from TT and put into HUNTING loot.
2.Add to Explosive Bp some kind of CRAFTING component.Let say conductors(hunting loot is use to make them)
3.Add to EXP BP loot some new wepons L BPS,worth to click high TT(its ammo i know but still in weapon section so it would make sense)so crafter of Explo Bp would have some other way to hit something nice.


What would happen:
1.Hunters even new ones would get MU on their loot(from Nanocubes and oils to Make components)
2.Crafters would make components and skill with possible break even/profit.
3.Due to Mu on Explosive Bp clicking other condicion crafting bps like dynera,abrer,dacascos etc could compete with Explo Bp.
4.It would bring all professiond closer together,Explo BP would use mats from our economy,it would boost hunting,crafting, and stop breaking mining,economy would get a nice boost,MA would get still nice profit,we miners could still do our job with pleasure.Everyone's happy.

GoNi said:

A new hunter starting with Daiki youngs steping up to Berycleds then some Argos, got a chance to break even on MUs looted ?

A new crafter starting with Basic Filters (or Explo I) to unlock BPC then starts to craft other things like F-101, Alekz Precision, Arber Sights, ManMPH, Settler Armor, L2 amps and so on to get skills in a crafting field that offers some option for profit/break even, can profit from MU while skilling to his goal ?

Come on!

Experienced Miners, can go for rars, they know where it is in the grounds, and they know what gear is needed to find it.
New miners need to learn, where to find what, and they have to learn what gear to use to find what.

We all had to learn how EU works, how we should do things.
We all had to pay in that learning process and even as medium/high skilled player, we still have to learn and adapt to actual changes.

There exist a lot of guides new players can use, for every proffession.
If new players are to lazy to look into this guides, and to lazy to look for a mentor with knowledge, well very like will lose more than needed.
It is an RCE everybody needs to do his homework and learn to survive in this 90% return universe.
Its hard to survive, very challanging, thats why I am still here, I like challange.
If I would prefer all easy UBER in 14 days, I would play WoW

Click to expand...

Well, new hunters can go after vixens, which is almost always a break even or profit. Crafters could probably break even with basic sheet metal, back when residue prices were normal.

My main point however, that prior to this change, for all of the PE/EU history it was possible to mine for mostly common materials like narc, gazz, niks, etc. and be pretty sure of break-even or small profit in the long run. You still had to explore and discover areas, it wasn't profit anywhere you dropped as someone suggested, but it was possible. And for all this time economy seemed to function fine. So now saying that is shouldn't be possible, when it worked fine for all this years is just not logical.

As I have said already, instead of nerfing mining like this, steps should be taken to improve MU in other professions instead, to decrease the disparity.

add us pls !!

add us ,-)

Teora Donte Schaub

and

Dark Amber Light



Thanks

ps: this kind of changement in EU économie make it worth less to play .. !!

Moonbiter said:

My main point however, that prior to this change, for all of the PE/EU history it was possible to mine for mostly common materials like narc, gazz, niks, etc. and be pretty sure of break-even or small profit in the long run.

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And now you claim that it is fair that crafters all the time paid for your free play, and you want them still doing it, therefor remove the Explo BP, as with Explo BP crafter is no longer forced to pay your bill.

Well as said earlier in this thread, you are whinnig, because you lost the crafters paying your bills.
I say that is fair, fair for the crafters, who surely don´t want to pay your bill!

OMG and I am so wrong that your whinning is caused by your own greed!

You want to play for free and crafters should pay for it, thats all you want.
I have already noticed that in your first post, and I say STFU, leave them crafters gambling at only TT input, and don´t force them to pay YOUR bill !!!!

There is enough other crafters, that still use ore/enamtter and still pay MU, maybe you manage to let them pay your bill. I don´t care!

Read up your own post, and tell me who was it all this years you lived as a break even miner, paying that MUs!
It was crafters that made it happen that you could break even, and crafters (mainly gamblers), that lost their ass off.

Buying ore/enmatter at 120% for gambling (TT food in return) at 90% TT return == 73% back of what they paid.

You claim it is fair (well it is, but only for you), that crafter (gambling) lose 27% (average) every cycle, while you always (break even) and sometimes (profit).

Think about what you recently wrote, and then come back and claim again, this is fair !!!

Lukasz said:

And again arguing between professions....
You say miners have better than crafters/hunters,lets say you are right why not to then those 3 steps:

1.Remove nanocubes from TT and put into HUNTING loot.
2.Add to Explosive Bp some kind of CRAFTING component.Let say conductors(hunting loot is use to make them)
3.Add to EXP BP loot some new wepons L BPS,worth to click high TT(its ammo i know but still in weapon section so it would make sense)so crafter of Explo Bp would have some other way to hit something nice.


What would happen:
1.Hunters even new ones would get MU on their loot(from Nanocubes and oils to Make components)
2.Crafters would make components and skill with possible break even/profit.
3.Due to Mu on Explosive Bp clicking other condicion crafting bps like dynera,abrer,dacascos etc could compete with Explo Bp.
4.It would bring all professiond closer together,Explo BP would use mats from our economy,it would boost hunting,crafting, and stop breaking mining,economy would get a nice boost,MA would get still nice profit,we miners could still do our job with pleasure.Everyone's happy.

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it seems to me you are under the impression that it should cost mu to craft ammo, and that ammo should be sold with mu?

doesn't that just sound crazy when you say it out loud?

goldbaron357 said:

EP should NOT drop metal residue with loot. That would fix so many problems. It is not established that nanocubes are metal, therefore they should not drop metal residue. Where prints use only TT ingredients in, only TT ingredients out should be allowed. It would be logical then, for nanocubes to drop in lieu of residue. Worst case, replace it with shrapnel, I mean c'mon.

Click to expand...

This is the proper solution!

This is what all these people joining the petition should be petitioning for!

GoNi said:

Buying ore/enmatter at 120% for gambling (TT food in return) at 90% TT return == 73% back of what they paid.

You claim it is fair (well it is, but only for you), that crafter (gambling) lose 27% (average) every cycle, while you always (break even) and sometimes (profit).

Think about what you recently wrote, and then come back and claim again, this is fair !!!

Click to expand...

yo, take a 'back to reality' pill..
IF I as a hunter want to gamble & go on dasp, big eomons, mulmun .. elite, I can expect the same
IF I as a miner wonna go with lvl 13 amp anywhere, I can expect the same
Fact is, crafting profession has the most gamblers as it's the 'cheapest & easiest' way to cycle a lot of ped/hour..
Back when there was mu on oils, ores & residue, there was also a mu on the sold crafted stuff & that part is fucked up atm due to no mu on the residue & not enough ppl willing to craft usefull stuff
It also has an impact on what hunters ask in % on their looted armor, guns & faps.. (hence, the most eco hunters can't brake even w/o winning events or getting rare loots)
All this is the reason why I made the "who's in charge" thread in the dev sections.. but it seems none wonna claim that position allthough I'm sure when it comes down to paycheck, someone will claim it

I honestly don't know if this was a good idea or not. What I do know is that in the short while this has been I already grew more than tired of the glob messages from ep crafting. They are outright trampling on my nerves. It's just clutter that conveys nothing of the excitement it was designed to do and usually does. Either I get a filter letting me shut out this specific type of noise or I'll quit listening to globs altogether. I rather grind in both silence and ignorance if there's no help for it.

GoNi said:

And now you claim that it is fair that crafters all the time paid for your free play, and you want them still doing it, therefor remove the Explo BP, as with Explo BP crafter is no longer forced to pay your bill.

Well as said earlier in this thread, you are whinnig, because you lost the crafters paying your bills.
I say that is fair, fair for the crafters, who surely don´t want to pay your bill!

OMG and I am so wrong that your whinning is caused by your own greed!

You want to play for free and crafters should pay for it, thats all you want.
I have already noticed that in your first post, and I say STFU, leave them crafters gambling at only TT input, and don´t force them to pay YOUR bill !!!!

There is enough other crafters, that still use ore/enamtter and still pay MU, maybe you manage to let them pay your bill. I don´t care!

Read up your own post, and tell me who was it all this years you lived as a break even miner, paying that MUs!
It was crafters that made it happen that you could break even, and crafters (mainly gamblers), that lost their ass off.

Buying ore/enmatter at 120% for gambling (TT food in return) at 90% TT return == 73% back of what they paid.

You claim it is fair (well it is, but only for you), that crafter (gambling) lose 27% (average) every cycle, while you always (break even) and sometimes (profit).

Think about what you recently wrote, and then come back and claim again, this is fair !!!

Click to expand...

Well, i don't even know where to start. Let's begin with point that not all crafters are gamblers. Materials like narc, niks, cobalt, blaus are used mostly in amplifier BPs and those are mostly never crafted for gambling, but for profit. Miners got their MUs, and then in turn paid MUs to crafters who made their amps. I don't really see how such a system was affecting crafters in a negative way, everyone was more or less happy.

Of course MA has made some screw-ups, imho unL amps being one of them, when you could cycle huge amounts of peds without paying MU.

Let's take another example. Redulite. It doesn't have 400-800% MU because of miner greed, it's an economic balance between somewhat limited supply, demand for lvl13 and crafters still making their profits. Once again, who is loosing in this situation?

Then there are gamblers, who did drive a certain part of MUs, like gazz most likely in their lvl2 crafting sprees on condition. But they were not generating all of the MU.

And lastly, there was residue price, which was driving component crafting, and generating some of MU for stuff like lyst and the like.

Now, with the explosive BP and cheap residue flooding the market, something of a domino effect ensued. Not only materials whose MU was driven by gamblers crashed, but all of resources which were used in legitimate MU exchange cycle between crafters and miners as well. Like in 2008 stock market crash, it wasn't only the companies who had inflated (gambling) prices had their shares devalued, but legitimate companies as well.

It probably has been said but don't get rid of prints just change materials needed to make them. Items that would help each profession in some way not an item that can be bought directly from trade terminal. Make it shrapnel, lyst, some generic component. This way every profession is covered in some way and even a first day player can contribute as well.

sir lancelot said:

It probably has been said but don't get rid of prints just change materials needed to make them. Items that would help each profession in some way not an item that can be bought directly from trade terminal. Make it shrapnel, lyst, some generic component. This way every profession is covered in some way and even a first day player can contribute as well.

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...and the price of the BP would drop to TT+2. Might as well remove them then. We already have lysterium power containers, plastic springs and conductors.

WhiningSkeptic said:

...and the price of the BP would drop to TT+2. Might as well remove them then. We already have lysterium power containers, plastic springs and conductors.

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nothing wrong into changing it into using lyst/oil etc & give residue only as result

While u'r at it please also convert all ammo and probes to craftable since people want more intertwining of the professions. So hunters can get all they need ( ul guns/amps/ammo ) and miners (probes/ul finders) and the bitching comes when crafters get to not fund others profit..

I don't -rep people as a matter of principle but yea selfish pricks is all i see here..

Oh and the irony, the crafters are losing peds crafting these and yet the whiners are the hunters and the miners...lol..

Imagine that

Div.. usually the gambling crafters fuck themselves.. some used to raise mu on 1 ore by 5% just couse they are impatient or don't have the bankroll..
now they fuck with everybody's mu's

das said:

Div.. usually the gambling crafters fuck themselves.. some used to raise mu on 1 ore by 5% just couse they are impatient or don't have the bankroll..
now they fuck with everybody's mu's

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Agreed.. However here's the thing. If they are losing ( I'll be clear here that I am not saying they are losing but in this thread it has been assumed to be so) then they are helping fund EU which is a good thing. Agreed that it affects others badly but then we always give the advice " Adapt or die" when the smart ones are asked this question.

For example , mining has always been so easy that someone with some knowledge about areas could basically mine blindly and yet profit. Now this has been changed and hence the furor. So why should mining be treated so special?? That is the only real change that has come about with the introduction of EP BP and pretty much why the miners are the most affected.

Yes, it is no longer easy where if u din't do well in hunting/crafting you just went and mined and saved your ass. Now MA is making it a more even playing field basically and giving those who actually fund the game a chance to enjoy at a slightly lower cost. I do not see this as a bad thing at all. As always those who profit from the game need to work for it, not be served things on a platter.

I see it more of a balancing move from MA. I have been hurt myself by it as i had to sell my lvl 5 ul amp for way lower then i had imagined. However, it is not MA's responsibility to save my ass on stuff i buy , either for resale or for use. It is me who needs to be able to adapt to changes.

This thread seemed very one sided and hence i thought I will share my point of view. I might be wrong and if so, then am sure MA will make the changes required. However, they need more activity and that is all i see happening in game.

And those who think EU is shrinking/disappearing and what not. Let me give u a piece of hardcore fact. In all of 4 years i have not seen EU with this many people in game at this time of the year. Not only that, so many new depositors with so much to deposit. As much as the quitters would love to see EU go down because they plan a withdrawal ( most assume as they are funding EU), guess what.. YOU are not funding EU and thankfully so and for each quitter, there seems right now to be plenty of new money coming into the game ( This i can vouch for because i have sold 100's of k's of peds of stuff to people who are very new to the game).

Overall, yes i believe MU is good to have but mining was very much unbalanced to begin with. Now they are being bought to the same level as others where u need to use your head to stay ahead of the curve.

Cheers,

Divinity

GoNi said:

If MA nerfs the Explo BP, it is because you all cry for that nerf !
So please don´t complain after the nerf, that MUs on L amps, L gear that is crafted will go up to where it was befor Explo BP.

You all miss to see the advantages of low MU on residue!

Click to expand...

No miners were not crying before. Miners spent mark up to get mark up. crafters spent mark up to get mark up on amps sold. As you can see a good outcome for both parties. Now its just crafters and miners get very little mark up. How is this a win for both parties involved?

This does not just affect miners also. The change in loot(shrapnel) helped mark up in oils for a short period of time but oils are crashing also. So is the same story, crafter getting close to TT price on goods and the hunter is getting very little.

dar hammer dei said:

No miners were not crying before. Miners spent mark up to get mark up. crafters spent mark up to get mark up on amps sold. As you can see a good outcome for both parties. Now its just crafters and miners get very little mark up. How is this a win for both parties involved?

This does not just affect miners also. The change in loot(shrapnel) helped mark up in oils for a short period of time but oils are crashing also. So is the same story, crafter getting close to TT price on goods and the hunter is getting very little.

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Miners had ul amps, ul finders as options to make things a lot better for them. If they wanted to go eco they could target 140+ mu with no amps on a ul finder. Hunters never really had any way to target avg mu with that precision.

Also wool is 115%+, muscle etc oils are still 110%+ , tier components ( some of them are 200%+) .. None of these were there earlier before shrapnel.. This thread is not even about shrapnel , just about EP BP and i do not see the correlation between the two. Hunters are actually doing rather well, if they knows what to do.

Now, gambler (crafter) gets to run with tt bp and screw the residue prices, leading to lower mu on amps. The miner ( who earlier could adjust his markup cost by reducing amp size or going to UL amp no longer has that advantage to his side) and thanks to the gambler (miners) with lvl 13 obsession the big chunk of resources is now 105-110%.

Am afraid but this is all again bringing a balance to the universe. Hunters cannot target mu as specifically as crafter or miner and as such everyone is being brought to the same level in terms of average mu. The hunter and the miner always had the option to go with zero mu cost input ( hunters had ul guns, amps and ammo while miners had probes , ul amps and ul finders) and now crafters are getting the same option. If anyone truly wants proper interconnection then get ammo and probes to be crafted and then I would agree that EP BP should not be using TT items.

As i have said before, all 3 professions are still profitable if u know what to do. However the bar for mining has been raised and that i believe is a good thing.

Divinity said:

Miners had ul amps, ul finders as options to make things a lot better for them. If they wanted to go eco they could target 140+ mu with no amps on a ul finder. Hunters never really had any way to target avg mu with that precision.

Click to expand...

Agreed. I wish no UL equipment was in game but we are well past that point. But no point creating more mistakes. 2 wrongs do not make a right

Divinity said:

Also wool is 115%+, muscle etc oils are still 110%+ , tier components ( some of them are 200%+) .. None of these were there earlier before shrapnel.. This thread is not even about shrapnel , just about EP BP and i do not see the correlation between the two. Hunters are actually doing rather well, if they knows what to do.

Click to expand...

Wool is high at the moment for obvious reasons and this will not last.

Oils were used to craft in the lower ranges as I am sure you know which does not need to happen now with EP 1,2,3,4 outside of actually using components. The majority of them are under 101%. You mentioned one. Muscle oil which is at about 106% at the moment. Will help you out brain is at 105%. heart about 108%

Divinity said:

Now, gambler (crafter) gets to run with tt bp and screw the residue prices, leading to lower mu on amps. The miner ( who earlier could adjust his markup cost by reducing amp size or going to UL amp no longer has that advantage to his side) and thanks to the gambler (miners) with lvl 13 obsession the big chunk of resources is now 105-110%.

Click to expand...

I am sorry but level 13 would not make up anywhere near 10% of total mining turn over. I am being generous with this percentage in my opinion.

Divinity said:

Am afraid but this is all again bringing a balance to the universe. Hunters cannot target mu as specifically as crafter or miner and as such everyone is being brought to the same level in terms of average mu. The hunter and the miner always had the option to go with zero mu cost input ( hunters had ul guns, amps and ammo while miners had probes , ul amps and ul finders) and now crafters are getting the same option. If anyone truly wants proper interconnection then get ammo and probes to be crafted and then I would agree that EP BP should not be using TT items.

As i have said before, all 3 professions are still profitable if u know what to do. However the bar for mining has been raised and that i believe is a good thing.

Click to expand...

Balance is never going to be achieved. It never happens in any game. But one thing new game developers are doing is bringing other professions(classes, avatar, whatever form of balancing you want) up to the higher standard. Not pulling the one "over powered" profession down. Said it earlier but is important enough to say again, UL was wrong and making more of it is not a good thing.

Also profit can be made in this game I am thankful I can accomplish it everyday but it does not make the BP stupid. Every niche removed is a group of players losing out or just not playing at all

Once the connection is completely broken down between players we might as well make it a single player game.

dar hammer dei said:

Agreed. I wish no UL equipment was in game but we are well past that point. But no point creating more mistakes. 2 wrongs do not make a right

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I would agree but at this point we are also talking about removing/changing a BP which pretty much can be done to UL items across the section.

dar hammer dei said:

Wool is high at the moment for obvious reasons and this will not last.

Oils were used to craft in the lower ranges as I am sure you know which does not need to happen now with EP 1,2,3,4 outside of actually using components. The majority of them are under 101%. You mentioned one. Muscle oil which is at about 106% at the moment. Will help you out brain is at 105%. heart about 108%

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I have sold muscle for 110% as late as 2 days ago and 109% for heart. Heart/brain oils just fyi dropped when arkadia weekend events started which looted them by tons. They never really recovered from that.

dar hammer dei said:

I am sorry but level 13 would not make up anywhere near 10% of total mining turn over. I am being generous with this percentage in my opinion.

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Agreed. They don't cause the flooding but they do acentuate it.

dar hammer dei said:

Balance is never going to be achieved. It never happens in any game. But one thing new game developers are doing is bringing other professions(classes, avatar, whatever form of balancing you want) up to the higher standard. Not pulling the one "over powered" profession down. Said it earlier but is important enough to say again, UL was wrong and making more of it is not a good thing.

Also profit can be made in this game I am thankful I can accomplish it everyday but it does not make the BP stupid. Every niche removed is a group of players losing out or just not playing at all

Once the connection is completely broken down between players we might as well make it a single player game.

Click to expand...

The game needs to figure out a balance. If there was/is a niche which provides extraordinary benefits to a particular section of player then MA need to address it at some point. UL was wrong and it still is , i totally agree. However, when we are considering removing UL BP's or changing there ingredient the same can be done for UL equipment. If justification by way of petition can be made to make such dramatic changes, then that will set an example and the same can be extended to all the ul items. I would love to see how the miners/hunters react to that.

The game is not completely being broken down between players. It is being made into an even field where if u are good at something you will still succeed but participating in one activity does not give u an unfair advantage over the others.

And yes, if a profession is "overpowered", then it needs to be brought down because a serious advantage to a group of players becomes a serious disadvantage to another.

Actually after some thought remove me from petition, i don't believe in removing bp's or for that matter changing resources for them.

I do however think that residue should be replaced with shrapnel/residue mix maybe or just shrapnel. Rationale behind this is component crafting needed the residue at some mark up to make it remotely viable - or create more demand maybe for components in new bp's to come?

There has been a large market slowdown, people can't grind/decay if things do not sell - it's not just about lower mark ups (that i can live with); it's about the market slowly grinding to halt due to less demand that i fear is happening. People don't sell, they don't decay, they don't buy those amps, guns, finders etc etc.... - they just end up waiting on slowly dwindling buyers.

This ultimately will affect all players/professions - hunter/miner/crafter/trader etc.

Ofc could be wrong, could be right - but there is a slowdown in economy.

The difference with UL hunting equipment for example is that this can be solved by creating limited equipment superior to the UL equipment(notice not nerfing something but bringing the weak counter part up to a standard. Not pulling something else down. Please explain how we could do this with EP because I see no room for improvement that a limited print could produce.

I am all for a even playing field but its a old way of thinking to nerf things. It does not work and has destroyed many great games in the past. If a profession is over-powered bring others up to the same standard. Which makes the game balanced(which it will never be like every other game just to be clear).

Maybe I just can not see the big picture. But it just seems to hurt all involved. It is not like crafters are still charging the same amount for the majority of there goods. Mark up in my opinion in this game is a sign of a healthy economy. The closer everything gets to TT value the closer we are to the game becoming a true slot machine.

Norbert said:

Actually after some thought remove me from petition, i don't believe in removing bp's or for that matter changing resources for them.

I do however think that residue should be replaced with shrapnel/residue mix maybe or just shrapnel. Rationale behind this is component crafting needed the residue at some mark up to make it remotely viable - or create more demand maybe for components in new bp's to come?

There has been a large market slowdown, people can't grind/decay if things do not sell - it's not just about lower mark ups (that i can live with); it's about the market slowly grinding to halt due to less demand that i fear is happening. People don't sell, they don't decay, they don't buy those amps, guns, finders etc etc.... - they just end up waiting on slowly dwindling buyers.

This ultimately will affect all players/professions - hunter/miner/crafter/trader etc.

Ofc could be wrong, could be right - but there is a slowdown in economy.

Click to expand...

A very good and reasonable suggestion. It will of course have its run down with melee users who will then be furious about the <1% loss in MU of shrapnel if this course was to be followed, but hey u cant please everybody

dar hammer dei said:

The difference with UL hunting equipment for example is that this can be solved by creating limited equipment superior to the UL equipment(notice not nerfing something but bringing the weak counter part up to a standard. Not pulling something else down. Please explain how we could do this with EP because I see no room for improvement that a limited print could produce.

I am all for a even playing field but its a old way of thinking to nerf things. It does not work and has destroyed many great games in the past. If a profession is over-powered bring others up to the same standard. Which makes the game balanced(which it will never be like every other game just to be clear).

Click to expand...

As suggested by Marvin, that seems a plausible way of doing things. Instead of changing the ingredient or the BP or removing the BP, you change the output. Either shrapnel or anything else which is already close to tt becoming a major part of the output would drastically change the whole impact of the BP. This way the gamblers can continue there charade without impacting the economy as much as they are right now.

dar hammer dei said:

Maybe I just can not see the big picture. But it just seems to hurt all involved. It is not like crafters are still charging the same amount for the majority of there goods. Mark up in my opinion in this game is a sign of a healthy economy. The closer everything gets to TT value the closer we are to the game becoming a true slot machine.

Click to expand...

I have a bit of a different view of things. Do feel free to correct me if i am wrong. One of the biggest challenges for EU is to reduce the initial learning curve that a newcomer faces while joining this game. This i believe is also the biggest concern MA should be facing right now as to how to change this. That would explain the added emphasis on trainers and mentors they have laid in terms of the beginners game.

A derived problem comes when everything has MU and a beginner needs to start making decisions from day one to reduce his cost of play. What comes naturally to a veteran is not that easy for someone new to the game and the overloading of information required to play EU can turn a lot of people away. So and I am guessing here MA found one good way to reduce there cost of play and that is to reduce markup. Its really simple if u see, when mu persists on every item a smart person ( veteran) would easily be able to improve his performance and chances when compared to someone newer to the game.

For a long time in EU, people at the top made shitloads of peds at the expense of everyone below. This was not working as while they continued to play and make peds, a big part of EU gave up because the Top layer always had the advantage. With recent developments, MA is trying to even that gap in some ways. They do not want some people to keep withdrawing large sums whereas the rest to keep losing the sums ( its a closed economy) and finally quit. How do u do that? Reducing the ways for those withdrawing will lead to immediate reduction in losses for the rest. MU is where the biggest losses/wins happened in EU and that i think is why MA try to put caps wherever they figure they can.

I will end it up with a comparison. Imagine MA to be google and the players to be SEM ( Search Engine Marketers). It is the players (SEM's) job to try to outsmart MA (google) and it is MA's job to make sure the players (SEM's) do not get to outsmart them. MA is not here to lookout for the smart players as they should be smart enough to look out for themselves but they need to be more caring to those who are not. With increasing MU the gap between the two widens ( my belief and i could be wrong). The agenda it seems at MA's end is not to let that gap increase and therein lies our tussle.

Phew.. That was enough of writing from my end..

Cheers,

Divinity

Divinity said:

A very good and reasonable suggestion. It will of course have its run down with melee users who will then be furious about the <1% loss in MU of shrapnel if this course was to be followed, but hey u cant please everybody




As suggested by Marvin, that seems a plausible way of doing things. Instead of changing the ingredient or the BP or removing the BP, you change the output. Either shrapnel or anything else which is already close to tt becoming a major part of the output would drastically change the whole impact of the BP. This way the gamblers can continue there charade without impacting the economy as much as they are right now.



I have a bit of a different view of things. Do feel free to correct me if i am wrong. One of the biggest challenges for EU is to reduce the initial learning curve that a newcomer faces while joining this game. This i believe is also the biggest concern MA should be facing right now as to how to change this. That would explain the added emphasis on trainers and mentors they have laid in terms of the beginners game.

A derived problem comes when everything has MU and a beginner needs to start making decisions from day one to reduce his cost of play. What comes naturally to a veteran is not that easy for someone new to the game and the overloading of information required to play EU can turn a lot of people away. So and I am guessing here MA found one good way to reduce there cost of play and that is to reduce markup. Its really simple if u see, when mu persists on every item a smart person ( veteran) would easily be able to improve his performance and chances when compared to someone newer to the game.

For a long time in EU, people at the top made shitloads of peds at the expense of everyone below. This was not working as while they continued to play and make peds, a big part of EU gave up because the Top layer always had the advantage. With recent developments, MA is trying to even that gap in some ways. They do not want some people to keep withdrawing large sums whereas the rest to keep losing the sums ( its a closed economy) and finally quit. How do u do that? Reducing the ways for those withdrawing will lead to immediate reduction in losses for the rest. MU is where the biggest losses/wins happened in EU and that i think is why MA try to put caps wherever they figure they can.

I will end it up with a comparison. Imagine MA to be google and the players to be SEM ( Search Engine Marketers). It is the players (SEM's) job to try to outsmart MA (google) and it is MA's job to make sure the players (SEM's) do not get to outsmart them. MA is not here to lookout for the smart players as they should be smart enough to look out for themselves but they need to be more caring to those who are not. With increasing MU the gap between the two widens ( my belief and i could be wrong). The agenda it seems at MA's end is not to let that gap increase and therein lies our tussle.

Phew.. That was enough of writing from my end..

Cheers,

Divinity

Click to expand...

Good post, nice to see someone who's not raging one way or the other.

I think Ma are going the wrong way however in closing the gap - the answer isn't to decimate mark ups - the answer is to provide new players with opportunity for good mark up, while shielding them somehow from higher players. For example RT has the vixens and the vixen gears - to much hassle for higher players to grind but good for new guys to at least have a chance to stay afloat during the formative stage.

Maybe by use of more instance type affairs (gauntlet for example that allows only those under professional level 10), place in those instances (limited by once per day as gauntlet) some component/resource that higher players need but to much hassle to collect themselves.

EU has always hurt those "bad at math" and destroying mark ups across the board will i fear not give the intended affect to "helping" new guys but rather create a move by those who have worked their way up to look at the door out.

It's a difficult balance and as always "adapt or quit", I just think mark up and learning to target mark up is the thing that should be introduced to new players - not dumbing down the whole economy to a point people feel deflated and uninspired to advance.

Anyway thats it i'll keep out from here on in, just i wish people could look at whole picture rather than Miners are greedy, expl ammo bp suxxorzz etc etc drama drama drama. This bickering i think more than anything disuades new players tbh.

Agree with most of what your saying norbert. Do not dumb the game down. Its not that complicated. We all managed to do it and I am far from "smart". But calling other opinions rage is where I do not agree. I swear people these days read every forum post as if it was written in CAPS.

dar hammer dei said:

Agree with most of what your saying norbert. Do not dumb the game down. Its not that complicated. We all managed to do it and I am far from "smart". But calling other opinions rage is where I do not agree. I swear people these days read every forum post as if it was written in CAPS.

Click to expand...

My rage comment wasn't aimed at you by the way .

Just some see black and white - no grey. Ofc is bound to get heated as people have interests at heart both financial and gameplay, just sometimes goes over the top i think.

das said:

yo, take a 'back to reality' pill..

Click to expand...

You have to pay 110-120% markup for your ammo when you go hunt Dasp ???

better you take the back to reallity pill dude

Divinity said:

As suggested by Marvin, that seems a plausible way of doing things. Instead of changing the ingredient or the BP or removing the BP, you change the output. Either shrapnel or anything else which is already close to tt becoming a major part of the output would drastically change the whole impact of the BP. This way the gamblers can continue there charade without impacting the economy as much as they are right now.

Click to expand...

If we agree at the point that residue output of that BP is to high it is not needed to change ingredents, or output.
Just reduce input, instead 20 PED nanucubes, reduce it to 5 PED nanocubes, the residue output automatically will go down, as it has lower turnover.

Another thing would be to increase skill requirement.
Actually Explo IV is LVL7 BP, needs artifically no skill to craft.
Raise it to LVL 15, then impact of skill will be visible, low level crafter could no longer click the high level BP at acceptable CoS, forced to skill with the lower level BPs first. All crafters with to low skill will have a lot more failed, on the high LVL BP, less success = less residue produced.