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Petition to remove Explosive BPs (or change them)

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I will say even more its like you wish MA would get even bigger cut from our deposits....just so people get less peds on their accounts but MA will be happy....it's just imposible for me to think like that sorry.
 
Im in too.

Mining marked it dead. So pitty
 
sign me up
~Rekuftaog Goatts Powful

I don't think they should remove them completely, as it would screw anyone who has paid for the BPs, but obviously changes are needed.
 
Moonbiter said:
Yes, that certainly had an effect. But pick any material auction history and you will see a sharp decline in all since december last year, the time when explosives were introduced. Materials currently are at all time low markups, and it's NOT because of overmining.
Click to expand...

Yes!

Take a look what gamblers crafted, pre Explo BP

- Dynera Laser Sights
- Arbrer Laser Sights
- Cinclair Laser Sights

Thats some comon gambling BPs.
The list could be continued with a lot more BPs that only got crafted to gamble (hit the ATH)

Now my question to you:

How many of this sights did you buy daily?

You want this gamblers buying your ores and enmatters, but don´t buy anything from them.

You want markup from the gamblers, but don´t pay markup to them.

You want to take money from them and never give a penny back?

Is that fair ?

Well obviously someone at MA office thought this is not fair, and created Explo BP.
Thank very much MA, that was long time overdue!
 
GoNi said:
Yes!

Take a look what gamblers crafted, pre Explo BP

- Dynera Laser Sights
- Arbrer Laser Sights
- Cinclair Laser Sights

Thats some comon gambling BPs.
The list could be continued with a lot more BPs that only got crafted to gamble (hit the ATH)

Now my question to you:

How many of this sights did you buy daily?

You want this gamblers buying your ores and enmatters, but don´t buy anything from them.

You want markup from the gamblers, but don´t pay markup to them.

You want to take money from them and never give a penny back?

Is that fair ?

Well obviously someone at MA office thought this is not fair, and created Explo BP.
Thank very much MA, that was long time overdue!
Click to expand...


And that makes you happy because those greedy miners dont profit that much?
Dunno but i thought ppl who play this game would care about strong economy and this one is getting hurt badly by Explo Bps.
I gamble quite often mostly on Lvl2-3 and 5 and buy all resources directly from aucion if dont have specific one.That how it works closed 3 dependent professions.If you are thanking MA for not letting people make more proftit then....i really dont know what to think it's just crazy....Its like hoping your goverment will crash economy of you country so your neighbor wont longer have this shiny new car in his garage....it's just too much for me to process:scratch2:
 
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I can´t care less about miners economy if it simply is not fair!

Some math based on 90% TT returns.

Miner don´t use amps, gets 90% TT return and sells his ores on average 115% hits break even after markups.
Miner lost nothing and plays for free!
This situation is pre Explo BP, often read exactly that in mining guides, easy to break even on markups!

Crafter buy ores/enmatter average at 115%
He got 90% TT return aswell, but thats only ~78,3% what he paid.

His products are not sellable, so he gets only TT for it, he lost 21,7%

Good miner cycles 1000 PED a day, often less!

Gambling crafter cycles 10k PED / h

Every hour the crafter gambles with ores/enmatters he buy from miners at average 115%, he pays the playing of 10 miners.
If he crafts only 4h a day, he pays 40 miners day.

Why the hell 1 player should pay the bill for 40 other players ????

Miners want to play for free or even profit and crafter should pay that. Why ??

If this is not greed of miner, what is it ?
 
Lvl 5 mining amp:
cost to click 12.15ped divided by 6.15ped ores and 6 ped probes.
Let say Mu on this 6.15 ped is 110% co total cost to click:12.75ped
In theory you get 90% back from tt.So crafting amp you loose:12.15x 90% = 10.935 (you loose 1.215ped+0.615 from mu) total loss on 1 lvl5 amp would be 1.83ped total.
Just to make it simple success make it 12.15 ped (just for ilustation) then you buy for the rest residue at 101% and fill the rest of this amp to full tt 200ped that gives 187.85 ped in residue at 101% it would cost 189.73 ped.And you have ready to sell amp.
So 1 amp cost you 90% tt return + mu on ores=1.83 ped loss
Rest of residue at 101%(187.85ped residue)=1.98 ped loss on Mu
Total what cost crafter to make that amp=3.81ped
Amp sold on aucion atm 103% (200ped amp x103%)=206 ped
Cost of auctioning amp on auction 0.72ped so one amp crafter can sell at 205.28ped so total 5.28 - total loss on amp (3.81ped )=1.47 ped Pure profit.
So not only crafters play for free but they make profit on each amp ofc in long run not to mention L bps looted.

Do you think crafters would craft items for sale without profit or on loss?
Do you still think its unfair for miners to try to profit?
What more enjoyable crafting amp and selling them on AH or hand to hand or mining unamped for rares with 5pec decay on finder and most often 2-3 enhancers on this finder?

If you dont care about some profession in this game you dont care about whole game and economy.
Why its again who has better hunters miners crafters?Lets make this Expl Bp just from Hunting loot so hunter get get some more mu on their loot, its just not fair that Ma is cutting both miners and hunters from crafters.Thats it.
 
You care for hunters economy just add some hunting loot to this BP
You care for crafters just add some components to it.
But dont say this Bp is any good for this game, thats just wrong.
 
GoNi said:
If this is not greed of miner, what is it ?
Click to expand...

Lazy crafters not mining their own resources?

Mark up on everything is driven by demand, if to much go get your own mats.

Nobody forces anyone to buy anything, is choice - that choice creates mark up.

K last post- really can't be assed with pcf.
 
Norbert said:
Lazy crafters not mining their own resources?
Click to expand...

hey crafters aren't lazy! They... oh wait, those are the ones that play while they're asleep?

nevermind :zzz:
 
Lukasz said:
Lvl 5 mining amp: +++snip+++
Click to expand...

You do really think someone clicking Explo IV BP 20k PED / hour wants to sell his products to other players?

I don´t think so, its gambling. Someone doing it wants to see that ATH nothing else. The products Explo Ammo, very likely gets dumped into TT imedaitely if not autosell activated.
The residue output, sold to highest buyorder imediately too, what is less than 102% atm.

Why do you think someone crafting for the ATH, would buy residue to craft full TT LVL5 amps ????

Take a look at the turnover of this gamblers. 20k PED / h

Well not really doable with your LVL 5 amp example but not that far away, so this example isn´t that bad at all.

20k turnover with LVL 5 amps, TT input (residue not counted for reason)

20k / 12,15 = 1600 clicks (roughly 1,5 hours) as said not that bad example as it comes close to Explo IV turnover.

1600 clicks full quantity success rate lets say 30% (depends on skill of the crafter and QR of the BP)
480 amps crafted in 1,5 h. Doing that 6h a day == 1920 amps (even if he would use residue to get it full TT, it would not be sellable, just to many!)

Anyway its stupid example, he crafts for ATH, so it is not full quantity its full condition!

1600 clicks full condition, success rate ~ 5%
Thats still 80 success and success == global in that case.
Doing that 6h a day is 320 LVL 5 amps a day, still to many to sell it all to other players.

Do you really think this kind crafter uses residue to get full TT items ?
No they don´t !
All the amps get dumped into TT, only a small number find the way into auction (max 20 a day, auction limit)
Even if this crafter got a shop with 150 item points and a few shopkeepers.
Doing that gamble on a daily base, impossible to sell the products!
 
I don't particularly care that miners don't get as much MU but this is just a move in the wrong direction and I'd rather see the trend nipped in the bud.

I'd be in favor of shrapnel and maybe frags going into the bps.

David Doer Falkayn
 
Lukasz said:
Lvl 5 mining amp:
cost to click 12.15ped divided by 6.15ped ores and 6 ped probes.
Let say Mu on this 6.15 ped is 110% co total cost to click:12.75ped
In theory you get 90% back from tt.So crafting amp you loose:12.15x 90% = 10.935 (you loose 1.215ped+0.615 from mu) total loss on 1 lvl5 amp would be 1.83ped total.
Just to make it simple success make it 12.15 ped (just for ilustation) then you buy for the rest residue at 101% and fill the rest of this amp to full tt 200ped that gives 187.85 ped in residue at 101% it would cost 189.73 ped.And you have ready to sell amp.
So 1 amp cost you 90% tt return + mu on ores=1.83 ped loss
Rest of residue at 101%(187.85ped residue)=1.98 ped loss on Mu
Total what cost crafter to make that amp=3.81ped
Amp sold on aucion atm 103% (200ped amp x103%)=206 ped
Cost of auctioning amp on auction 0.72ped so one amp crafter can sell at 205.28ped so total 5.28 - total loss on amp (3.81ped )=1.47 ped Pure profit.
So not only crafters play for free but they make profit on each amp ofc in long run not to mention L bps looted.

Do you think crafters would craft items for sale without profit or on loss?
Do you still think its unfair for miners to try to profit?
What more enjoyable crafting amp and selling them on AH or hand to hand or mining unamped for rares with 5pec decay on finder and most often 2-3 enhancers on this finder?

If you dont care about some profession in this game you dont care about whole game and economy.
Why its again who has better hunters miners crafters?Lets make this Expl Bp just from Hunting loot so hunter get get some more mu on their loot, its just not fair that Ma is cutting both miners and hunters from crafters.Thats it.
Click to expand...

I crafted enough amps the past few months to flood the market for several years.

Not any longer though.

Miners can cycle as much and have same expected return by using amps since they have MU in loot. Miners can still profit by being careful. Crafters lose a bit less and can cycle more ped.

If you think mining is boring, then stop. The crafting machines can be used by anyone.
 
Moonbiter said:
Hello everyone.

As some of you might be aware, i was an active miner a couple of years ago, and was playing pretty actively since 2006. In recent years some RL issues prevented me from actively playing, but i kept an eye on the market. This month i came back to pick up mining again, and frankly was horrified to learn what happened to markups.

After a bit of investigation, it turns out that Explosive projectiles with ingredients from TT is to blame. While i can understand the attraction of cheap residue, this in effect has ruined mining. While markups were steadily declining over the years, with some spikes for certain minerals, mining was still one of the safest professions when playing smart, and even allowed for certain risk taking with bigger amps in certain areas. Now however vast majority of areas are just worthless. There are only a select few minerals still having any reasonable markup, and they are usually among other worthless crap.

I really can't see how this change benefits anyone, except for maybe gambling crafters who are getting materials at TT price. So, i ask Entropia's mining community (and anyone else concerned about this change) to join me in this petition and demand a change.

If you agree with this petition, please reply with your full avatar name, and i will include you in the list below this post. Any insights into the issue and discussions are welcome. Thank you for your attention.

Edit: I have received some comments that this issue is affecting not only miners. This petition is by no means exclusive to miners, so if this fundamental change to economy affected you in a negative way, feel free to sign.
Click to expand...

i agree they should be changed, no more metal residue in output. THen regular residue price will go up, other items are being crafted thanks to that (to loot residue) and boom material prices back to normal (due to demand increasing)
 
Lukasz said:
Again absurd,MA remove 60-80% demand for ore by introducing this BP you say its miners fail?
They stop grinding foma/hell/ug so who would buy those crafted amps/finders/excavators.
It should be opposite miners should mine more,hunters hunt more and crafting should use that,if they only have more worth to click BPs,i think we should have 90% of all tools crafted and they should be better than UNL versions.
Why do you think EXPLO should stay unchanged?Just because for now miners get less MU that they used to?Its just taking profit from population directly to MA so people can play less and less, how can anyone benefit from that especially crafter like you are?I don't see how it would be better for you if miners profit less they wont go to your shop and buy high MU finders and others tools whats the point?
I love to see crafters ATH ofc not on explo, as a miner thats best thing that can happen to me they win more play more use more stuff,have fun repeat and economy is improving, and from ATH on EXPLO how do we benefit?
Its like being Damage Enhancers crafter and hoping MA would stop dmg events each holidays-its just against any logic.
Click to expand...

Do not attach a label (as 'absurd'), it's ugly and wrong.
Be culturally, this, what you call absurd - in fact true. In fact, MA remove up to 80% of gambling demand for ore. But this gambling demand did not do anything useful, except earnings for miners, and tons of the items was sold on the market below the cost of production, because of this gambling. Do you think that it was fair?
Unfortunately, you do not understand that miners can play without amplifiers, and without making a turnover of 5000-10000 ped per hour (23х8х60 = 11040 PED), which no one can use, except crafting gamblers.
If you cannot sell your ores for better MU, then stop mining. And do something else.
The market will find a new equilibrium of supply and demand, if miners will not drown it.
The game just change the balance with a new BP, but you do everything as before. This is miners fail.
Into my shop will still come and buy tools because without them cannot work most miners. I'm not sell mining amps. And have NO plans to sell it! But now I do not need to compete with gamblers, selling their items below cost. I lowered my turnover in the game about 3-5 times. But my income has remained at about the same level as before.
Discard the cycling 5000 ped per hour on FOMA and you will realize that there is another way. Other way. Go planetside and try to find Dunkel Particles for me! Earn your MU and be happy! I don't need to buy your 10000 PED Caldorite lot, I'm not a gambler. But I can buy Dunkel Plastix.

PS (offtopic) If I'm not mistaken, it's you, who bought L30 several units a day (several days in the line) in my ELM Shop last week? You are speculator?

Edit: Little calculation in addition:
Only one (0.55 PED) Dunkel particle (MU is 7000%) - is your earning in 30-35 PED, instead selling 600-700-pedder (400+ units) auction lot of Narcanisum for 105%. But for you is easier to sell Narcanisum, is not it? It's fail.
Nobody needs Narcanisum? Try to find Gold... without amps, planetside. Without amps all will be found a little easier
 
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2 pecs from a EU newbie, but veteran from other mmo games.

Voting for features to be removed/changed is rarely good. Specially when the developers listen to it. As a player you rarely have the big picture available to you. From experience I know that "rebalancing" because something is to OP or breaks the game etc. rarely fixes the issue, because there will always be people who are unsatisfied.

In this case MA might have something planned down the line or they are simply trying to appease the big crafting gamblers as some have probably already suggested. If it is the latter it's obviously stupid from a player perspective since there are a ton of online casinos that have the same function. From MAs perspective I can see the benefit. They get a huge inflow of cash since a lot of people burn through a lot of peds fast. Another reason might be that Michael Bay is planning on creating his own planet and demands a lifetime supply of explosives.

The issue with the explosive bps aren't that they exist, it is that they are unlimited. New additions will always affect the game and the economy and MA should be more careful and do ingame "tests" of new items. My suggestion is this:

In the future when MA introduce items that have such a huge impact they should try it out a year first. Add limited versions of the bp during a year and and regulate the droprate to see how it affects the game with low availability and with a "simulated" ul period by dropping a lot of the L bp. This is a good way of testing before releasing the ul version. Since once you go UL it is permanent in the game and you cannot phase it out as you would with L.

And regarding the vote, no it is part of the game now so leave it be.
 
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i just want to see the main profession of those who did sign this petition.

my guess mostly miner...
 
Etopia said:
i just want to see the main profession of those who did sign this petition.

my guess mostly miner...
Click to expand...

With entropialife.com you can easiliy check it, and very many hunters and crafters on that list...
 
Replace residue from exp bp loot and problem solved.

Rgds

Ace
 
whiteknut said:
With entropialife.com you can easiliy check it, and very many hunters and crafters on that list...
Click to expand...

What I actually did here is the list :D

Avatars who signed petition:
Luke Moonbiter Sinclair - Miner mainly rank 138
lllllllllll Sachi lllllllllll - Hunter mainly rank 96
Miranda Montekis Nu - Miner mainly rank 770
Saurn Accolade Cerillas - no globals tracked - Trader or Alt ?
Granny Rowan Render - crafter mainly rank 449
Neil Greenleaf Stockton - miner and crafter ranks 251 + 168 (seems to craft mining equip for own usage)
KingNobody Noway Nohow - hunter mainly rank 2691 - no crafting
MeLoveYou LongTime FiveDolla - all proffessions ranks 37 and 183 and 54
Jimmy Xpl0jd Volten - hunter mainly rank 50
Sean Rocket Connors - miner mainly rank 434
Valentin Sir Valentin Vladar - Hunter - no mining crafting globals since Apr 2014 :D
-- Zzuki -- - hidden in EL, can´t say
dasouth Genious dasouth - hunter . no mining crafting globals since Jan 2014 :D
East Coast Fishing Pond - not found
Warvar Mortal Wild - hidden can´t say
sasha sale stormy - all proffessions, low ranked
Lukasz Lukasz82 Sz - hidden can´t say
Paul Jetman Masters - hunter mainly rank 375
Fred Ice Issue - hidden can´t say
Fate Thanatos Themis - hidden can´t say
KrupT KrupT RaveR - hunter rank 345
Sarian Light LeForge - all proffessions ranks 102, 491 and 658
Shaman 4400 Salvation - miner rank 96
Lil swampy monster - hunter mainly rank 798
Dawid Burks Bujak - miner crafter ranks 116 and 487
Justin MADSTORM Teespoon - hunter mainly rank 530
dobrin dobrinocb kushkiev - hidden can´t say
R4 1M 31 - miner rank 26
Tas r0ound Tadas - miner rank 42
Martre Martre MArkusz - miner rank 162 - lots of nearly similar names (Alts ?)
Tomas Tamosiunas Tumelis - hunter miner ranks 162 and 469
Anny Divine Thundergirl - hunter mainly rank 1648
Vi V3r0nyka BitFury - hunter miner ranks 1035 and 629
Zeneth Zenzile Kael - not ranked - no globals since mid 2014 - 0 crafting globals
Roslyn Kaz Farstar - hunter crafter Ark
Magnus Mag Ogg - hidden can´t say
Roberth Noname Rajala - hunter crafter 369 and 136
Dar Hammer Dei - hunter miner rank 1456 not ranked in mining
Click to expand...

We actually see a lot top ranked miners, nearly no top ranked crafters, most top hunters seem not to care.

The few top crafters that signed are also top miners.

Draw your own conclusions!
 
GoNi said:
What I actually did here is the list :D



We actually see a lot top ranked miners, nearly no top ranked crafters, most top hunters seem not to care.

The few top crafters that signed are also top miners.

Draw your own conclusions!
Click to expand...

Hehe, some players (like Saurn Accolade Cerillas) are absolutely zero loot on EL. Remove them from petition :)
This is traders maybe, but not a players :)

Hint:
Lukasz Lukasz82 Sz - FOMA gambler (2nd place in top miners)
Hey, stop your mining, you kill all markup!
Or just stop whining here.

Warvar Mortal Wild - High-skilled miner (close to lvl 70), as I know
Neil Greenleaf Stockton - mining slaves reservation holder, crafter
MeLoveYou LongTime FiveDolla - high-turnover gambler (including mining)
dasouth Genious dasouth - not a player atm (but I seen one global on Ambu)
Fred Ice Issue - rank 23 top miner
Magnus Mag Ogg - blueprints looter :)
 
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Gewitter said:
Hehe, some players (like Saurn Accolade Cerillas) are absolutely zero loot on EL. Remove them from petition :)
This is traders maybe, but not a players :)
Click to expand...

Not necessary, could be hunters that only hunt in teams or shared mobs, so no personal globals happen.
 
WhiningSkeptic said:
That would only bump lyst and residue a bit though, since people would probably do lysterium power whatevers instead.
Click to expand...


I guess that depends on what you think the reasons are for the crash in ores markup. I believe the crash is residue caused crash in amp mu's caused crash in ores markup.

So get rid off residue in loot on the exp bps, will resolve the problem. Still let people gamble away on stuff from tt, just don't loot anything useful...and problem solved.

Rgds

Ace
 
Some people do stuff on quite planets and do not run the program. I mined rock hell for years with d-class amps on off peak time in Australia prime time. Did not run program and majority of my globals were missed. Same with my hunting

I also no Saurn is the same. Does stuff on quite planets a lot of the time
 
Gewitter said:
Do not attach a label (as 'absurd'), it's ugly and wrong.
Be culturally, this, what you call absurd - in fact true. In fact, MA remove up to 80% of gambling demand for ore. But this gambling demand did not do anything useful, except earnings for miners, and tons of the items was sold on the market below the cost of production, because of this gambling. Do you think that it was fair?
Unfortunately, you do not understand that miners can play without amplifiers, and without making a turnover of 5000-10000 ped per hour (23х8х60 = 11040 PED), which no one can use, except crafting gamblers.
If you cannot sell your ores for better MU, then stop mining. And do something else.
The market will find a new equilibrium of supply and demand, if miners will not drown it.
The game just change the balance with a new BP, but you do everything as before. This is miners fail.
Into my shop will still come and buy tools because without them cannot work most miners. I'm not sell mining amps. And have NO plans to sell it! But now I do not need to compete with gamblers, selling their items below cost. I lowered my turnover in the game about 3-5 times. But my income has remained at about the same level as before.
Discard the cycling 5000 ped per hour on FOMA and you will realize that there is another way. Other way. Go planetside and try to find Dunkel Particles for me! Earn your MU and be happy! I don't need to buy your 10000 PED Caldorite lot, I'm not a gambler. But I can buy Dunkel Plastix.

PS (offtopic) If I'm not mistaken, it's you, who bought L30 several units a day (several days in the line) in my ELM Shop last week? You are speculator?

Edit: Little calculation in addition:
Only one (0.55 PED) Dunkel particle (MU is 7000%) - is your earning in 30-35 PED, instead selling 600-700-pedder (400+ units) auction lot of Narcanisum for 105%. But for you is easier to sell Narcanisum, is not it? It's fail.
Nobody needs Narcanisum? Try to find Gold... without amps, planetside. Without amps all will be found a little easier
Click to expand...



Yes i bought from you around 12 of them, i tier them to tier 3 resell or keep them for me for rares planetside also refer your shop to many of my friends because your prices are very good.
Thats why im so surprised why you dont like miners that much, for now your business is going good i see but do you think in long run it will the same?
And yes im speculator i buy cheap and sell more expensive thats what make this game so interesting for me.
You are right its still possible to profit from unamped mining hardly but possible.The same you can do with componets/amps craft and thats what i do too.

You say gambling demand didnt do anything useful?Ypu prefer that all would go to MA instead of miners who buy your stuff? wow just wow:scratch2:. Miners would spend that anyway by taking a shot with high amps/crafting on conditions/hunting big mobs boosting economy and thats useful?
I dont know any miner who does only mining,they all hunt craft and have fun spending peds on other things.
Ok so i say give us all finders from TT/exavators/refiners/enhancers and amps form TT,demand on Dunkel is useful it bring only profit for crafters, thats just stupid i want you to profit!

This explosive bp brings only stagnation to our economy nothing more.
 
Gewitter said:
Hehe, some players (like Saurn Accolade Cerillas) are absolutely zero loot on EL. Remove them from petition :)
This is traders maybe, but not a players :)

Hint:
Lukasz Lukasz82 Sz - FOMA gambler (2nd place in top miners)
Hey, stop your mining, you kill all markup!
Or just stop whining here.

Warvar Mortal Wild - High-skilled miner (close to lvl 70), as I know
Neil Greenleaf Stockton - mining slaves reservation holder, crafter
MeLoveYou LongTime FiveDolla - high-turnover gambler (including mining)
dasouth Genious dasouth - not a player atm (but I seen one global on Ambu)
Fred Ice Issue - rank 23 top miner
Magnus Mag Ogg - blueprints looter :)
Click to expand...

Not foma but Hell.Didn't know you are making it personal now.
 
Lukasz
But you also do mining too much! Stop it already, and MU on ores rises.
No need to get so much!
Problem is not a EP BP, problem is miners like you!
 
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