Question: Why is EP BP Gambling?

I don't want to off-topic a current thread about EP BPs, so I'll just make a new thread.

I'm reading folks who are saying:

valentin said:

you dont need miners or hunters or sweaters to be able to craft this explosive BP:s only MA because you buy all the ingredients you need to be able to craft from MA so its 100% profit to MA...

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KingNobody said:

...and also the fact that the nanocubes are essentially casino chips and MA has abandoned all pretense of EU not being a slot machine. I wonder about the legalities of all this...

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Just out of curiosity:

• Buying maxed gun for 500 ped or less, buying ammo from TT and hunting mobs that never need armor/fapping
• Buying maxed mining gear for 500 ped or less, buying probes from TT and mining with no other costs
• Buying maxed EP BP for 500 ped or less, buying cubes from TT and crafting with no other costs

Why is one gambling but the other two are not?

Ironically, the one option called gambling is the one almost guaranteed to give the least MU possible.

Now, yes, I agree the EP BP has tossed mining/crafting MU for a loop and yes it was a VERY strange move by MA. However, I can't see it as any more gambling than any other EU activity.

JohnCapital said:

I don't want to off-topic a current thread about EP BPs, so I'll just make a new thread.

I'm reading folks who are saying:



Just out of curiosity:

• Buying maxed gun for 500 ped or less, buying ammo from TT and hunting mobs that never need armor/fapping
• Buying maxed mining gear for 500 ped or less, buying probes from TT and mining with no other costs
• Buying maxed EP BP for 500 ped or less, buying cubes from TT and crafting with no other costs

Why is one gambling but the other two are not?

Ironically, the one option called gambling is the one almost guaranteed to give the least MU possible.

Now, yes, I agree the EP BP has tossed mining/crafting MU for a loop and yes it was a VERY strange move by MA. However, I can't see it as any more gambling than any other EU activity.

Click to expand...

When you buy the gun or mining gear you are getting them from another player which should stimulate those professions.

At least that's what i think the argument is.

once you got the bp it is like get stuff from tt, sell stuff to tt after...

hunting and mining can give you 90% back or 120% with same tt out based on what you do..

JohnCapital said:

Just out of curiosity:

• Buying maxed gun for 500 ped or less, buying ammo from TT and hunting mobs that never need armor/fapping
• Buying maxed mining gear for 500 ped or less, buying probes from TT and mining with no other costs
• Buying maxed EP BP for 500 ped or less, buying cubes from TT and crafting with no other costs

Why is one gambling but the other two are not?

Ironically, the one option called gambling is the one almost guaranteed to give the least MU possible.

Click to expand...

It's all about what you can sell not what you buy.

JohnCapital said:

I don't want to off-topic a current thread about EP BPs, so I'll just make a new thread.

I'm reading folks who are saying:



Just out of curiosity:

• Buying maxed gun for 500 ped or less, buying ammo from TT and hunting mobs that never need armor/fapping
• Buying maxed mining gear for 500 ped or less, buying probes from TT and mining with no other costs
• Buying maxed EP BP for 500 ped or less, buying cubes from TT and crafting with no other costs

Why is one gambling but the other two are not?

Ironically, the one option called gambling is the one almost guaranteed to give the least MU possible.

Now, yes, I agree the EP BP has tossed mining/crafting MU for a loop and yes it was a VERY strange move by MA. However, I can't see it as any more gambling than any other EU activity.

Click to expand...

They all are gambling, EP BP has no MU, so it is a gamble on looting a HOF or other BPS,

Hunting or mining you can use them MU to make it not gambling.

thoreau said:

When you buy the gun or mining gear you are getting them from another player which should stimulate those professions.

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You can buy guns/mining gear from TT with out interaction with anyone.

OK so...

Not selling loot to other players = gambling.

Got it.


I disagree, but I get the argument.

i want to add to my previous post..

you can't compare getting hunting gear or mining gear with getting explosive bp...
you can compare hunting, mining, crafting...
or you could compare level 13 amping on foma to explosive iv clicking..

you can gamble in all three professions, but you can also chose your outcome a little in all professions in form of mu..

the only point of clicking explosive iv (20 ped/click) blueprint is getting big hofs ..thats why it is gambling...

(you could click expl I bp on monria for skill mission which is not gambling)

Only reason it is not gambling is the loot is affected by skills?

In a casino if you get better results because of skills they kick you out permanently; if they don't break some bones first you are lucky. In EU you get temp banned if caught one too many times....

Definitely not gambling!

thoreau said:

When you buy the gun or mining gear you are getting them from another player which should stimulate those professions.

At least that's what i think the argument is.

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you buy the EP BP(s) from other players as well...

You reference buying TT equipment, but the EP BPs that are hitting hard are not TT. Once you put a small investment in for the big EP BP, you will always play for just TT value. There will NEVER be another need for spending MU or repairs.

20 PED per click is like killing Dasps or Vanguards, which you CANNOT do without spending a lot more in MU. You either buy (L) gear for these mobs (+ammo) for a markup or you buy UL gear (+ammo, +repair) for a much higher one-time markup. The gear required to reliably and consistently hunt 20 PED-ammo mobs costs much, much more than the high-end EP BP. Not to mention the skills required to hunt these type of mobs are much higher in requirement than any of the EP BP skill requirements.

Basically, a rather low level player can just depo one time for a high-level BP and then NEVER participate in the economy of the game. It is a self-contained, and self-sustained slot machine. No repairs, no market purchases, no market sales.

It is the simplest form of gambling.

JohnCapital said:

Why is one gambling but the other two are not?

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Well you can look at it as when MA was giving out PEDs in loot but had to stop due to gambling laws. This almost falls under the same issue since we no longer need to trade or use second hand items. We now just need to buy simple tokens and craft them. This is now exactly the same as going into a casino where one just needs to buy a few tokens to play the slots.

It's stupid but easy for MA to fix this. All they need to do would be to add Nova or any other cheap item into the BP and all would be well again.

Edit: BTW you know Cyrene's Parent Company's main income is?

Imo it sure isn't gambling, but on the other hand, it for sure can be seen as it.
People (me included occasionly ) tend to mix up "something really is" with
"I think it is"...

JohnCapital said:

You can buy guns/mining gear from TT with out interaction with anyone.

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Fair enough.

It needs to be said every once in a while because some people think otherwise; the 3 major professions in Entropia are all gambling with a negative expectation.

That said, some activities within Entropia contribute more to the overall economy than others. A hunter who loots animal thyroid oil and sells it to a crafter who buys binary energy and kanerium ingots from a miner to make a Breer M4a to sell to a hunter could be said to be contributing greatly to the overall economy.

A player who grinds an explosive BP could be said to contribute minimally to the overall economy.

So maybe the issue isn't gambling since all 3 professions are gambling at their core.

Maybe the issue is which activities contribute very little to the economy of the game.

It's gambling because your return don't have MU and the only chance to profit is to "hit the jackpot", global and HOFs. With mining, hunting or crafting items for sell, you can get items with markup and sell, so it's not pure gamble.

thoreau said:

Fair enough.

It needs to be said every once in a while because some people think otherwise; the 3 major professions in Entropia are all gambling with a negative expectation.

That said, some activities within Entropia contribute more to the overall economy than others. A hunter who loots animal thyroid oil and sells it to a crafter who buys binary energy and kanerium ingots from a miner to make a Breer M4a to sell to a hunter could be said to be contributing greatly to the overall economy.

A player who grinds an explosive BP could be said to contribute minimally to the overall economy.

So maybe the issue isn't gambling since all 3 professions are gambling at their core.

Maybe the issue is which activities contribute very little to the economy of the game.

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So for the future, what way is best to solve this "issue"?
Is it to: 1. remove BP (not so smart imo), 2. remove residue from loot when crafting with these,
and/or 3. implement a feature that requires a lot of Explosive ammo?
Somehow, I think #3 will be in the pipeline at dev team...

Joat said:

So for the future, what way is best to solve this "issue"?
Is it to: 1. remove BP (not so smart imo), 2. remove residue from loot when crafting with these,
and/or 3. implement a feature that requires a lot of Explosive ammo?
Somehow, I think #3 will be in the pipeline at dev team...

Click to expand...

I would add sweat and oil to the ingredient list. Then I would implement something that requires lots of explosive ammo.

JohnCapital said:

I don't want to off-topic a current thread about EP BPs, so I'll just make a new thread.

I'm reading folks who are saying:



Just out of curiosity:

• Buying maxed gun for 500 ped or less, buying ammo from TT and hunting mobs that never need armor/fapping
• Buying maxed mining gear for 500 ped or less, buying probes from TT and mining with no other costs
• Buying maxed EP BP for 500 ped or less, buying cubes from TT and crafting with no other costs

Why is one gambling but the other two are not?

Ironically, the one option called gambling is the one almost guaranteed to give the least MU possible.

Now, yes, I agree the EP BP has tossed mining/crafting MU for a loop and yes it was a VERY strange move by MA. However, I can't see it as any more gambling than any other EU activity.

Click to expand...

- You cant' buy UL guns that alow you to cycle 12k peds/hour in hunting
- UL high level amps do exist but in so small numbers they have almost no influence on markup and even small ones cost 15-25k... big ones (equivalent to IV bp) cost 150-250k...

The problem is not in EP bp but that III and IV use 2ped and 20peds per click.

If only EP bp I would exist... then there would be absolutly no problem and there would be enough explo amo crafted to bring it down to under 101%...

Falagor

thoreau said:

I would add sweat and oil to the ingredient list. Then I would implement something that requires lots of explosive ammo.

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The issue with residue still excist then. So, removing residue and add new ingredience maybe?
Majority is probably more worried about all hofs then loss in residue MU thou'...

If explosive bps were truly gambling MA would not have introduced them...

The issue most players seem to have with them is that their short-cutting the supply chain that supposedly keeps the trinity of the professions healthy.

Now you bring up what is the difference between buying gun/finder from TT and ammo from TT?

The amount of cycling..
If explosive bps stopped at lvl1 all would be well.. because the amounts being turned over would be so small..

Now picture if MA sold L shadow, L mod faps, and L lc-55 rifles from the TT... It would have the same effect..

Nothing is wrong even if someone would call it gambling, the problem is it's between MA and players not between player-player,it would be all good if the use some mats from loot not from tt.
We have more expensive BP to click and no one is complaining about them.

Because everyone puts the slider to condition.

Rgds

Ace

I think you are asking the wrong question John.

Neither of the people you quoted said EBP's were bad because it is gambling to click them.

KingNobody just pointed out that everyone already knows that a large part of the game is gambling, but now MA isn't even pretending anymore.

Valentin and others in the thread like Thoreau are pointing out the real problem; EBP crafters are not participating in the RCE.

EU is changing from a player driven economy, (in the past they even removed clothing and some weapons from the TT, removing rents from estates was another example) to a webshop based economy.

The items you mention that were always available from the TT were the very lowest level and only 1 of each type. The TT value was so tiny, they barely had any impact on the RCE. Just a backstop to let people play even when they were broke.

First, there were tokens added which you exchange to the TT (NPC's are the same as the TT) to get all kinds of items. This is the same as buying them from MA; you have to pay to get the tokens one way or another, but then the tokens are TTed.

Then the webshop came along. Direct purchase from the company.

The loot pills were the exact same strategy that Korean MMO's use to sell more items to players; remove a feature and then charge players for the 'convenience' of getting the feature back. At least their story about why they made the mobs stay on the ground longer was better than the one about the footgaurds anyway.

Pet tags? Really?

Shrapnel is a continuation of the process. Sell your loot directly back to the company. Universal ammo is even worse, you have to spend even more PEDs if you want to use it (decay).

Stables came along next. Looked ok at first, at least the owners got part of the income. But wait, the owner will have to TT items to use their stable. Oh, and said items are gained from players TTing their pets for random rewards. (Did someone mention gambling earlier?)

So what will it be next? Buffs available from the webshop? Premium accounts (already mentioned)? New plots of land when the citizenship system is introduced which will require buying housing or components directly from the TT in some way? I'm sure they have big plans. Items from the webshop with random 'Surprises' in them?


Players in EVE got together and stopped this from happening in their game (or more likely postponed it). It's amazing to me, with the pool of intelligence and experience, not to mention the huge financial investment some EU players have in the game, that people are just now realizing where this is heading.


I guess the EBP's are so blatantly not part of the RCE that some people are finally waking up. Maybe.

The big issue is here when does Gambling start in this game.


We have two slot machine here. Which one is the Las Vegas machine?

Two slot machine here one from Oregon and the other from Las Vegas. It is very illegal to play slot machine here in Oregon yet we still are allowed to play them in Oregon. -- and I'm not talking about the lottery (which yes they too look like the two shown above).

With MA moving to online slots more or less when will it be illegal to play this game as a non-gambling site?


Edit: Yes I almost got lost when typing this

JohnCapital said:

I don't want to off-topic a current thread about EP BPs, so I'll just make a new thread.

I'm reading folks who are saying:



Just out of curiosity:

• Buying maxed gun for 500 ped or less, buying ammo from TT and hunting mobs that never need armor/fapping
• Buying maxed mining gear for 500 ped or less, buying probes from TT and mining with no other costs
• Buying maxed EP BP for 500 ped or less, buying cubes from TT and crafting with no other costs

Why is one gambling but the other two are not?

Ironically, the one option called gambling is the one almost guaranteed to give the least MU possible.

Now, yes, I agree the EP BP has tossed mining/crafting MU for a loop and yes it was a VERY strange move by MA. However, I can't see it as any more gambling than any other EU activity.

Click to expand...

I had never tod that this is gamling but only that ---> These Explosive BP puts the game market laws aside.

OZtwo said:

The big issue is here when does Gambling start in this game.

​

We have two slot machine here. Which one is the Las Vegas machine?

Two slot machine here one from Oregon and the other from Las Vegas. It is very illegal to play slot machine here in Oregon yet we still are allowed to play them in Oregon. -- and I'm not talking about the lottery (which yes they too look like the two shown above).

With MA moving to online slots more or less when will it be illegal to play this game as a non-gambling site?


Edit: Yes I almost got lost when typing this

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It looks like crafting Machines.

valentin said:

I had never tod that this is gamling but only that ---> These Explosive BP puts the game market laws aside.

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Fair enough. My apologies for combining your comment with others. It seemed to be along the same lines. I was obviously mistaken.

Someone give me a valid reason(s) as why MindArk decided to get the materials needed to craft Explosives bp straight from TT, the resources for Mining/Hunting at the TT are very limited to a certain level, if u want to go beyond that level you will have to look elsewhere for those resources (finder/amp ect).

ps. whatever one does in game, hunt/craft/mine as soon as u start nothing is certain so doesn't that make it a gamble by default?

S4400Salvation said:

Someone give me a valid reason(s) as why MindArk decided to get the materials needed to craft Explosives bp straight from TT,

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Folks complained about the explosive ammo looting situation prior to that?