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What constitutes an act of piracy ?

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Granny Rowan

Granny Rowan

Old Alpha
Joined
Mar 28, 2011
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786
Location
England
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Natural Born Killers
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Granny Rowan Render
Kronan was attacked yesterday evening as we started our scheduled warps.
On exiting Arkadia SS we noticed Varyag by the spacestation and that various known names were in our nearby list. This included Albert Einstein SpecialRelativity, Don DonDraco Draco, Sebastian Bas Luxford, Samir Cursor Saigh and we know Yoshii Yoshii Lem the owner was on board but not in a seat

Cursor (NVE or ex NVE ?) and DonDraco (at the time of the attack a member of Defiant Veterans) came after us in quads, I was expecting delays going to warp. But instead they started a sustained attack as soon as we exited safe space. A short while later the mothership Varyag joined in the attack and began shooting Kronan.
This was not a delaying tactic this was a serious and sustained attack lasting almost 8 minutes.

We did not immediately return fire, in case this was just a silly show of bravado, however once it was clear that they intended to destroy us, we engaged them.
The end result was our (2) gunners destroyed the 2 quads twice, and then took out the Varyag.
We then warped and continued our normal schedule uninterrupted.

<removed link to vid clip>

During the attack I had put a shout in the 3 space chats to inform people we were under attack and once the seriousness of the attack became evident I also posted the following:

2015-04-09 00:44:13 [#space_travel] [Granny Rowan Render] Varyag is attacking Kronan.. seems they went pirate

After the attack, away from the heat of the moment, the following chats set me to wondering where one draws the line, what is an act of piracy??

2015-04-09 00:54:03 [#space] [Granny Rowan Render] Varyag and crew attacked Kronan as she left Arkadia for scheduled warps
2015-04-09 00:54:24 [#space] [Granny Rowan Render] After several minutes of attacking us they were all downed
2015-04-09 00:54:44 [#space] [Granny Rowan Render] we will be posting video and screenies after the flight
2015-04-09 00:55:02 [#space] [Granny Rowan Render] people can then judge for themselves
2015-04-09 00:55:39 [#space] [Ultimate Spirit Chaser Shirow] did they blow up the ship and loot anyone ?
2015-04-09 00:55:44 [#space] [Ultimate Spirit Chaser Shirow] if no then its not a pirate
2015-04-09 00:56:01 [#space] [Ultimate Spirit Chaser Shirow] annoyance maybe , but not pirate
2015-04-09 00:59:20 [#space] [Granny Rowan Render] how is unprovoked attack on a service ship during scheduled warps not the action of a pirate ??
2015-04-09 00:59:47 [#space] [Milela Sakuba Wilnfe] How can one make a judgement on an ongoing fued between two parties. Who is to know who drew first blood after such a lengthy tit for tat campaigne.
2015-04-09 00:59:55 [#space] [Granny Rowan Render] or do you let people destroy your ship and kill your passengers before deciding they are pirate
2015-04-09 01:01:48 [#space] [Granny Rowan Render] this is not the first time a member of Varyag crew has shot at Kronan, it is however the first time we have returned fire

I have no doubt that this thread will lead to a set of accusations and counter accusations, and tbh most of you don’t give a damn what our arguments are about. Months of griefing of Kronan and her crew culminated in this attack, despite our trying to ignore it as much as humanly possible.
So my question is this.. should I view last night’s attack as part of a private feud (however one-sided), and just get over it, or is the attack of a mothership during her scheduled warps an act of piracy?

Personally it is my belief that Varyag has now crossed the line, and should be declared a pirate ship, rather than just a pirate sympathiser and griefer.
They deliberately undertook this attack knowing we would be likely to be carrying passengers. They were therefore willing to inconvenience and scare other players, and who knows whether they would have looted them or not, had the result been any different.

Please note the soc Defiant Veterans has now removed Bas and Dondraco from their membership. Not for attacking Kronan but for other behaviours. The Kronan and her crew have no issues with the soc Defiant Veterans and our relationship is cordial.
 
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If what you say is true, then varyag went hostile and would be an act of piracy. it doesn't matter that no one is looted. That's not what piracy would mean nor do I think that is the appropriate thing to focus on in this case. Not all pirates were successful. in effect, varyag looted other people's time And I would expect someone who has the interest of entropians at heart would not engage in these actions. It is foolish and a quick way to devalue their investments. There was nothing to gain.

I would label varyag (keep typing yarvagina) a hostile ship to the kronan unless they are doing this to everyone. I would then caution others when using varyag's services (and perhaps yours as well) as there is increased risk. If you had a long feud, then this should have been handled differently than getting other entropians in the crossfire. the feud helps no one.

I would suggest working on whatever is causing problems between the two of you so that it doesn't result in damage of the game. If space wasn't lootable, no one would care and you can blow each other up all day long. but because it is lootable, there is more to consider.
 
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atomicstorm said:
If what you say is true, then varyag went hostile and would be an act of piracy. it doesn't matter that no one is looted. That's not what piracy would mean nor do I think that is the appropriate thing to focus on in this case. Not all pirates were successful. in effect, varyag looted other people's time And I would expect someone who has the interest of entropians at heart would not engage in these actions. It is foolish and a quick way to devalue their investments. There was nothing to gain..
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perhaps Hostile would be a better designator, as no evidence that they will attack other ships than mine, or other members of KISS. However her willingness to endanger passengers of a service vessel takes this a step further.

atomicstorm said:
I would label varyag (keep typing yarvagina) a hostile ship to the kronan unless they are doing this to everyone. I would then caution others when using varyag's services (and perhaps yours as well) as there is increased risk. If you had a long feud, then this should have been handled differently than getting other entropians in the crossfire. the feud helps no one. .
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I have tried to negotiate peace, I have tried ignoring things in the hopes it would die down, am not sure what other avenues I could have tried. Indeed our trying to let things die down just seems to have goaded them into ever more extreme actions.

atomicstorm said:
I would suggest working on whatever is causing problems between the two of you so that it doesn't result in damage of the game. If space wasn't lootable, no one would care and you can blow each other up all day long. but because it is lootable, there is more to consider.
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Agreed, and tbh had this happened during our skill runs in the training grounds, then the need for them to prove themselves could have been resolved, without involving customers. But deliberately choosing a warp schedule is an attack on the business rather than the person.

I am however confident that Kronan and the other KISS ships will continue to deliver passengers safely to their destinations.
 
In my eyes, if a ship is in gunning range that labels them as hostile or potentially hostile. Once the ship opens fire then its an act of piracy.
 
If I fly a ship peaceful in space and someone attacks me, no matter what his intention is, it is a pirate.

Doesn´t matter if this attack is successful or fail.

Easy as that!

:boxer:
 
Definition of Pirate - someone who attacks and steals (or attempts) from a ship at sea (or in our case, space)

As far as I can see, Varyag should be considered Pirate.. if not, they need to identify the issue they have with Kronan to justify an attack. :wise:
 
10 Points for the Video Anny. I did not know this was initiated by Quads and followed through with the Varyag moving in.
atomicstorm said:
I would label varyag (keep typing yarvagina) a hostile ship to the kronan unless they are doing this to everyone. I would then caution others when using varyag's services (and perhaps yours as well) as there is increased risk. If you had a long feud, then this should have been handled differently than getting other entropians in the crossfire. the feud helps no one. .
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Very much agree with this. This seems to have been a very intense "Tit for Tat" feud for several months. I see this as an escalation of the anti.

Although I may not condone this kind of thing I can only see it as something between Varyag and Kronan.
 
Did you ask them what there intentions were?
 
My bad... under fire I completely forgot the tea and bicuits and refined conversation :rolleyes:
 
Xane said:
Did you ask them what there intentions were?
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I would say their intentions were quite obvious.:scratch2:

I am ex US Army. If some asshole fires on me knowing very well my status I am going to return fire and interrogate any survivors. In my book the Standard RoE were followed. I was there, I witnessed it and that's my country ass you hear in the video at the end.

Intentions? Really are you <removed> kidding me?
 
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I am not defending anyone here, and not that it even matters at the end but, you cannot say it's an act of piracy, as nothing was in fact stolen... You can however call it an act of agression, and thus until the said party divulges their intentions, you cannot make accusations of someone... Not only is it rude, it is also punishable by law :p I believe it's called difamation

Anyway, just my :twocents:
 
Starkiller said:
I am not defending anyone here, and not that it even matters at the end but, you cannot say it's an act of piracy, as nothing was in fact stolen... You can however call it an act of agression, and thus until the said party divulges their intentions, you cannot make accusations of someone... Not only is it rude, it is also punishable by law :p I believe it's called difamation

Anyway, just my :twocents:
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So your saying if I get shot down in my quad but since I don't carry loot that means it wasn't an act of piracy?
 
you are a pirate the moment u open fire..its a no brainer
 
pontfirebird73 said:
So your saying if I get shot down in my quad but since I don't carry loot that means it wasn't an act of piracy?
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No that's not what I meant at all... What I meant is the intention of the person shooting you. is it to take your loot? or simply because he doesn't like you? or are you threatening his business? the list of options goes on.

An act of agression is not the same as an act of piracy, in other game people war all the time, yet you don't see them accusing each others of criminal actions, unless that is the intended purpose of whatever it is that one is doing to the other.

Get it now? :)

crazyqpp said:
you are a pirate the moment u open fire..its a no brainer
Click to expand...

Personally disagree, as lots of variables can be present on someone shooting another. But that's just me..
 
FilthyMcNasty said:
I would say their intentions were quite obvious.:scratch2:

I am ex US Army. If some asshole fires on me knowing very well my status I am going to return fire and interrogate any survivors. In my book the Standard RoE were followed. I was there, I witnessed it and that's my country ass you hear in the video at the end.

Intentions? Really are you <removed> kidding me?
Click to expand...

So I can assume no one from Kronan ever "interrogated" the other side and found out why they attacked, what they planned on doing if they were successful, etc...

Granny asked what constitutes an act of piracy, I would say the intentions of the attacker might determine the answer to that question. So to answer your question; No I'm not kidding you.
 
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crazyqpp said:
you are a pirate the moment u open fire..its a no brainer
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You are 100% correct.

@Starkiller
I've never heard anyone in space letting me know what their intentions are when shooting at me. Making accusations is punishable by law? What laws are you talking about? The only "laws" are what MA says, and considering all space is pvp LOOTABLE the second you make that first shot its an act of piracy with the intention of looting an avatar.
 
pontfirebird73 said:
considering all space is pvp LOOTABLE the second you make that first shot its an act of piracy with the intention of looting an avatar.
Click to expand...


Wait are you saying that firing the first shot is an act of piracy so long as you intend on looting them or are you saying that firing on another ship means your intentions are in fact to loot them?
 
pontfirebird73 said:
You are 100% correct.

@Starkiller
I've never heard anyone in space letting me know what their intentions are when shooting at me. Making accusations is punishable by law? What laws are you talking about? The only "laws" are what MA says, and considering all space is pvp LOOTABLE the second you make that first shot its an act of piracy with the intention of looting an avatar.
Click to expand...

sigh I was making a remark to RL, and difamation is punishable yes, which is what was done previously.

Also, if they shot you out of the blue in space, then i think it's safe to say the intention was to hurt you, mug you whatever, but just like in RL you have different grades of agression... hell you even have burglary, which is a non-offensive theft (someone with more knowledge correct me if i'm wrong on the terms)

So please, what you are saying is basicaly all manners or pvp are piracy or criminal activity, on the sole reason you think it's not consensual... when in truth you agree to entering space after clicking that message right before entrance... cmon now...
 
Considering its pretty hard to accidentally fire on someone and hit them, chances are if you get shot at there is more to follow with the end goal of destroying the avatars ship.
 
Just a question... if someone shoots at someone else in pvp4 is he the equivalent of a "pirate"?
 
pontfirebird73 said:
Considering its pretty hard to accidentally fire on someone and hit them, chances are if you get shot at there is more to follow with the end goal of destroying the avatars ship.
Click to expand...

Nobody is talking about accidents... but those end goals you spoke could be quite a lot, such as revenge, thievery, piracy, but this discussion will go on and on :p Quite pointless in my opinion, so yeah you guys are right, they're all pirates and in fact anyone defending themselves from pirates also become pirates by default.

So, don't shoot someone or else you are a pirate :p
 
If you shoot, you intend to loot.

PvP means that one of you is the "mob." Today, the Varyag was the mob, no different than a high agro mob, like merp...and after watching the video-about the same threat level. :laugh:
 
Starkiller said:
So please, what you are saying is basicaly all manners or pvp are piracy or criminal activity, on the sole reason you think it's not consensual... when in truth you agree to entering space after clicking that message right before entrance... cmon now...
Click to expand...

oh oh I want to be the carebear this time...

Yes I acknowledge I cannot enter into space without clicking the yes button BUT that does not mean I agree with lootable pvp and I certainly do not think it has any place in an RCE! Stealing is stealing no matter how you do it!!!

care-bear.gif
 
Xane said:
oh oh I want to be the carebear this time...

Yes I acknowledge I cannot enter into space without clicking the yes button BUT that does not mean I agree with lootable pvp and I certainly do not think it has any place in an RCE! Stealing is stealing no matter how you do it!!!

care-bear.gif
Click to expand...

I am gonna +rep this on the fact I know what that teddy means to a lot of people :ahh: And also on the ton of sarcasm involved in this reply.
 
Sandman10372 said:
If you shoot, you intend to loot.

PvP means that one of you is the "mob." Today, the Varyag was the mob, no different than a high agro mob, like merp...and after watching the video-about the same threat level. :laugh:
Click to expand...

Couldn't have said it better!
 
And Varyag is attaking the Kronan again! please post the vid too :)
 
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