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Help Valuing weapons

I understand people's sentiments regarding über items commanding a higher price tag. I even understand that, with the right skills and the right activities, profit is attainable from mod or imp. gear.

My argument is, for 10,000 USD, I expect those items to work for me at any skill level and to reap a reasonable reward.

No matter what way I look at it, I don't believe that the profit attainable on these items is more than a couple of hundred of PED a month with 12 hrs a day hunting. You're better off going to work, getting out of the house, getting some fresh air and interacting with people on a real level then making like a mushroom for 20 bucks a month (or so.)

The underlying fact still remains, various top-level people have been selling off this equipment. If it was worth having, they would not be selling. The only reason an avatar would keep a high-value low-earning weapon is because the amounts of money concerned to that individual are inconsequential.
 
AkiranBlade said:
I understand people's sentiments regarding über items commanding a higher price tag. I even understand that, with the right skills and the right activities, profit is attainable from mod or imp. gear.

My argument is, for 10,000 USD, I expect those items to work for me at any skill level and to reap a reasonable reward.

No matter what way I look at it, I don't believe that the profit attainable on these items is more than a couple of hundred of PED a month with 12 hrs a day hunting. You're better off going to work, getting out of the house, getting some fresh air and interacting with people on a real level then making like a mushroom for 20 bucks a month (or so.)

The underlying fact still remains, various top-level people have been selling off this equipment. If it was worth having, they would not be selling. The only reason an avatar would keep a high-value low-earning weapon is because the amounts of money concerned to that individual are inconsequential.
Click to expand...

I disagree ;)

What I said at the beggining, everything is a simple math and never buy an UNL weapon if you don't plan on grinding.

Take the same UNL and L weapon, think on how much TT you can burn and what is the % of MU you pay on L version. That is your first ultimate saving!

Couple of hundreds per month? lol, couple of hundreds a day if you grind, and couple of thousands a month!

Now, you need to understand different weapons can enable you to do different things.

For example some high tiered weapon can save you hundreds of peds on armor decay when hunting mob like Scipulor.. So again, price is higher.

Or for example, EWE LC-100 a UNL SIB gun that goes for 5k, but has MU around 110-120%..
Burn one full TT everyday, and you can TT the gun at the end of year and still make like 1-2k peds profit :)

What about weapons like Vincent and CalyTreks? You are talking about thousands peds saved a month!
So do you expect someone to sell you something like this cheap? Or do you think that just because you don't get TT profit with it, they are worthless?
 
PW3CKA said:
I disagree ;)

What I said at the beggining, everything is a simple math and never buy an UNL weapon if you don't plan on grinding.

Take the same UNL and L weapon, think on how much TT you can burn and what is the % of MU you pay on L version. That is your first ultimate saving!

Couple of hundreds per month? lol, couple of hundreds a day if you grind, and couple of thousands a month!

Now, you need to understand different weapons can enable you to do different things.

For example some high tiered weapon can save you hundreds of peds on armor decay when hunting mob like Scipulor.. So again, price is higher.

Or for example, EWE LC-100 a UNL SIB gun that goes for 5k, but has MU around 110-120%..
Burn one full TT everyday, and you can TT the gun at the end of year and still make like 1-2k peds profit :)

What about weapons like Vincent and CalyTreks? You are talking about thousands peds saved a month!
So do you expect someone to sell you something like this cheap? Or do you think that just because you don't get TT profit with it, they are worthless?
Click to expand...

Yes, but i would not use profit and savings as they were the same.

Saving dont mean you automaticly profit.
 
AkiranBlade said:
My argument is, for 10,000 USD, I expect those items to work for me at any skill level and to reap a reasonable reward.

The underlying fact still remains, various top-level people have been selling off this equipment. If it was worth having, they would not be selling. The only reason an avatar would keep a high-value low-earning weapon is because the amounts of money concerned to that individual are inconsequential.
Click to expand...

First point, I use to think this. However if you reach level 100 now a days, it is a good indication than you could save up the 10,000 to deposit. As getting to 100 is not cheap. (Non-deposits make no comment on this, we all know you secretly deposit through you alts).

Second point, Like you said, you'd have to grind to see any benefits, we do no know there situation. I feel that the top level players are more buying investments and then coming to play for fun for a few hours a day.
 
PW3CKA said:
I disagree ;)

What I said at the beggining, everything is a simple math and never buy an UNL weapon if you don't plan on grinding.

Take the same UNL and L weapon, think on how much TT you can burn and what is the % of MU you pay on L version. That is your first ultimate saving!

Couple of hundreds per month? lol, couple of hundreds a day if you grind, and couple of thousands a month!

Now, you need to understand different weapons can enable you to do different things.

For example some high tiered weapon can save you hundreds of peds on armor decay when hunting mob like Scipulor.. So again, price is higher.

Or for example, EWE LC-100 a UNL SIB gun that goes for 5k, but has MU around 110-120%..
Burn one full TT everyday, and you can TT the gun at the end of year and still make like 1-2k peds profit :)

What about weapons like Vincent and CalyTreks? You are talking about thousands peds saved a month!
So do you expect someone to sell you something like this cheap? Or do you think that just because you don't get TT profit with it, they are worthless?
Click to expand...

I don't expect people to sell me anything, I'm not looking to buy right now.

My expectation stands. I've been participating since 2005, I still expect modified and improved to reap rewards in their use over other equipment available, irrespective of my skill level. I paid something in the region of TT+35k PED for my Improved M2870. It does not make me profit, I feel that is a false economy all day long.

100s of PEDs per day profit? Even if you grind flat out, I just don't believe this happens. Sorry. I never saw any indication of this using my imp. gear in the past, or an MM.

If you get to get to level 100 before profit can be realised on this gear, it really is not worth the money being bandied around for them. The only justifiable argument to this is purely to maintain the value of investment individuals have placed on the items.

Reasonable expectations:

If I spend 10k on a digital gun, I expect it to profit at any level and without having to spend my entire waking life grinding (within reason I mean, no-ones realistically going to hunt snables and the like with an MM, if you do, you deserve loss!)

I expect items that merely save me money to be worth a few hundred USD, because if you still don't profit, these items are just not worth these sums of money.​

If the items were sensibly priced, I think more people would join, or return to Entropia Universe. Right now, the item market in Entropia Universe is like the housing market in the UK. So ridiculously overpriced and everyone is stuck with its retardedness.
 
My view for what it's worth.

The price of weapons is a bubble; very much like the UK housing market. If 'you' buy a house for £100k (not that there are many in the UK available at this price) the true construction costs will typically be 1/3 to 1/2 of the actual price, but this is irrelevant because there are no houses available for true construction costs - why would there be. This means that a buyer is then locked into the price they have paid and when they decide to sell, they 'need' (more than want) to see a profit. They don't care about real value just perceived value, which is the price anyone will pay. They forget about usage and home life - the driver is 'profit'.

Only when a significant world event occurs such as a global recession do we then get a realignment of prices - then people start to try and talk the market up by using 'cheap' and 'value' and comparisons to pre 2008 prices (which we all accept were a bubble anyway).

The price of weapons in this game seems to go the same way. For example with the MM; I suspect the first one was looted by an uber; who then put it up for 'sale'. Few friends got together and the price became fixed. The MM was then worth 200k - but really was it actually worth this? The real worth was only the TT price.

The game price became fixed, because this was the price someone paid for it. We then had our massive inflationary anchor - if the MM is worth 200k then my "anything" must be worth at least "whatever number I think of"! We also then had an influx of players buoyed up by the booming economy who had to have the best ! One avatar - I think he was called Sammy Sossa (I may be wrong) epitomised this for me at the time. A very new played who then bought up significant uber gear at the highly inflated (as was subsequently shown) price.

I have kept pushing for a formula because I was genuinely interested whether anyone would choose to defend the price of a weapon with a mathematical formula (as was stated above I have seen it for mining kit).

No one did !
 
There is no formula since everyone value weapons differently. If you want one, compare your savings to CLD revenue.

Will weapon X save you more than 40 PED per week? If so, paying 15k for it will save you more than 10 Cld would pay you.

You'll have to determine yourself; how much is feature Y worth to YOU?

After that it might be worthwhile to check if the rest of the market is on the same page as you, in order to not make a future sale impossible.
 
WhiningSkeptic said:
There is no formula since everyone value weapons differently. If you want one, compare your savings to CLD revenue.

Will weapon X save you more than 40 PED per week? If so, paying 15k for it will save you more than 10 Cld would pay you.

You'll have to determine yourself; how much is feature Y worth to YOU?

After that it might be worthwhile to check if the rest of the market is on the same page as you, in order to not make a future sale impossible.
Click to expand...

I think comparing 'profit' of 40 PED / week versus loss reduction of the same is an inherent failing of people en masse in how they think about the value of items.

If I spend 15k PED on CLD's and reap 40 PED revenue on that, I have a clear ROI to work with. To justify the cost of an item for the money it saves you in hunting in the same way is wholly maligned.

I do think there is a watershed for this where at some point the value of an item goes from a savings value to a profit value. Sure as shit it shouldn't be 100k PED!
 
AkiranBlade said:
I think comparing 'profit' of 40 PED / week versus loss reduction of the same is an inherent failing of people en masse in how they think about the value of items.

If I spend 15k PED on CLD's and reap 40 PED revenue on that, I have a clear ROI to work with. To justify the cost of an item for the money it saves you in hunting in the same way is wholly maligned.

I do think there is a watershed for this where at some point the value of an item goes from a savings value to a profit value. Sure as shit it shouldn't be 100k PED!
Click to expand...

It was a suggestion since he is determined to find a formula. For me, that would work since every ped I'd get from CLDs would be used up.

My point is that we have different ways to look at things and this works for me. Just because a MM isworth 75k to someone, it doesn't mean it is worth that to everyone.
 
WhiningSkeptic said:
It was a suggestion since he is determined to find a formula. For me, that would work since every ped I'd get from CLDs would be used up.

My point is that we have different ways to look at things and this works for me.
Click to expand...

If you feel it's acceptable to spend vast sums of money on enabling you to spend ever-so-slightly less in your day to day Entropian activities, who am I to argue with you. My words were not meant to be attacking of your personal view, more a statement of the general situation (just to clarify.)

My CLD PED is not used, so I see it as revenue pure and simple. I expect them to perform in a semi-stable manner, provided people are continuing to participate as they are currently. I accept that their inherent value may drop in the near future, as to be completely honest, they're too expensive also.

The real kicker to all of this is the following:

If people perceive this system too expensive to get into, they will not entertain even trying it. Many have come and are now gone, because they perceive this system to be too expensive.

Nails in the coffin:

1) Amps only do up to half the damage of the host weapon

Amped opalos, while "not the intention" according to MindArk, saw people having a stable return rate, some could profit, most did not, but this kept people participating. The greater the participation level, the more bigger spenders would play. (and ok, yes this would increase the value of items.)

2) No gold in loots

When oils were introduced and money taken away, the overall TT value return reduced too, because the expectation was that the various oils would return a markup. The problem with that, is for that to work, you either need lots of traders available to buy this stuff, or cycle larger amounts of PEDs of ammo to obtain more to make the auction of it sensible. This fails to work because, a) I refer you to point 1 and the reduction of participants and b) Crafters were not willing to pay the markup, they were very much in control back then, in order to see that they return profit on the decent items they crafted.

3) Super HoFs/ATHs

The money for these need to come from somewhere, yup, increased loss day-to-day. I think the arrival of these were marked by Vixen's ATH on Daspletors. When F.O.M.A (Club NEVERDIE as it was known back then,) there was no way that those mobs had accrued that much loss, in such a short space of time, to product a 100k loot!


All of these actions completely devalued all of the decent items in within the Entropia Universe, but the actual value did not drop. And here we are back to the UK housing market (and the same in other countries too I'm sure.)

In the mid-80s, when there was an economic crash, the house market crashed too. We've not long, for all intents and purposes, just come out of another crash, yet this time, the government did everything in their power to preserve the housing market. It really needed to crash there too. Anyway, that's a little bit of an aside.

And now for some humour... (or should I say "And now for something completely different!")

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3Vgptnstyc
 
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AkiranBlade said:
100s of PEDs per day profit? Even if you grind flat out, I just don't believe this happens. Sorry. I never saw any indication of this using my imp. gear in the past, or an MM.
Click to expand...

AkiranBlade said:
I think comparing 'profit' of 40 PED / week versus loss reduction of the same is an inherent failing of people en masse in how they think about the value of items.
Click to expand...

Whether to call it 'profit' or 'saving' it is merely academic discussion.
Lets call it 'saving' if this is more appealing to you.

Due to different IRL factors, last time I was truly grinding was last year's Migration.
I decayed my gun more than 1k PED every day, and believe me - there are people who do better than that.
My dps was over 130 dmg/s with t8 damage enhancers.
Now if you will try to find similar dps and level L weapon you will fail, unless you worked on bunch of them to tier them before event.
But for discussion sake let's say that there is such L weapon capable to be compared.
How much MU would be on it? My very optimistic estimate would be 140%, most likely more (I did not used single L since years so I'm a bit out of touch here...).

So at 140% I would be saving over 400 PED per day.

You can continue to deny significance of such saving but you will not change the fact that it is happening and it is real!


gwit said:
I have kept pushing for a formula because I was genuinely interested whether anyone would choose to defend the price of a weapon with a mathematical formula (as was stated above I have seen it for mining kit).

No one did !
Click to expand...

Seems like you had not been reading carefully, maybe what I wrote above will be easier to spot.

Unless you expect some mathematical formula like
Code: 
price = dps * (7.82 + range + attack_speed - tier) *PI
then you will not get it.
 
Teiwaz Storm said:
So at 140% I would be saving over 400 PED per day.
Click to expand...

If you could save that per day, great, but why pay circa 100K PED to still lose money? :eyecrazy:

Anyhow, just going to go around in circles on this point really.
 
AkiranBlade said:
If you could save that per day, great, but why pay circa 100K PED to still lose money? :eyecrazy:

Anyhow, just going to go around in circles on this point really.
Click to expand...

Let's say I would be grinding for less than half of a year, like 150 days
400 * 150 = 60000 PED

Now take somebody like Smilgs.
It is common knowledge that his avatar is used by multiple people, almost around the clock, therefore 'his' potential saving would be much more impressive.

The more you grind the more such UL weapon is worth to you.
 
Teiwaz Storm said:
Let's say I would be grinding for less than half of a year, like 150 days
400 * 150 = 60000 PED

Now take somebody like Smilgs.
It is common knowledge that his avatar is used by multiple people, almost around the clock, therefore 'his' potential saving would be much more impressive.

The more you grind the more such UL weapon is worth to you.
Click to expand...

Yes, i agree on the general idea of saving in terms of comparing to using UL alternatives.

But at the same time it also assumes an equal supply of the L gun you compare with, and thats just not possible.

Wich means, when you have a high end UL SIB ( or maxxed ) weapon you will most likely grind more than you would if you had only L options, or atleast thats where it would make sense.

So the saving calc is somewhat flawed, since you would never ever have the option to grind that much with L alternatives.

It saves to some extent, but most of all it ENABLES you to grind alot more than L alternatives do.
 
ermik said:
Yes, i agree on the general idea of saving in terms of comparing to using UL alternatives.

But at the same time it also assumes an equal supply of the L gun you compare with, and thats just not possible.

Wich means, when you have a high end UL SIB ( or maxxed ) weapon you will most likely grind more than you would if you had only L options, or atleast thats where it would make sense.

So the saving calc is somewhat flawed, since you would never ever have the option to grind that much with L alternatives.
Click to expand...

My calculation was merely to demonstrate idea and you are right that it is flawed.

First and foremost there is no L counterpart that would deliver anything comparable dps at the same level as UL X5 with t8 damage enhancers. Yes L can be tiered as well but getting high tiered or high TIR L weapons comes with overhead MU, quite steep especially during events. Additionally, as you said, availability of such high tier/TIR L weapons is very limited.

As for availability of high end L weapons generally, I can't really say anything. Last time I was using L was when Apis was widely crafted. Then I bought Assassin and never looked back.
But it is possible that their availability is limited. I remember talking with Fort some months ago and he was complaining that it was hard to find Emik L5 (or was it L6?).


It saves to some extent, but most of all it ENABLES you to grind alot more than L alternatives do.
Click to expand...

That might be true also, and I think it only increases value of UL for serious grinder.
 
Teiwaz Storm said:
Let's say I would be grinding for less than half of a year, like 150 days
400 * 150 = 60000 PED

Now take somebody like Smilgs.
It is common knowledge that his avatar is used by multiple people, almost around the clock, therefore 'his' potential saving would be much more impressive.

The more you grind the more such UL weapon is worth to you.
Click to expand...

But without guaranteed profit, that worth should be sensible and limited to a certain extent.

To help put things into context....

It costs me less to run a Maserati than it does to run a Mod. Merc. Why?!
 
AkiranBlade said:
It costs me less to run a Maserati than it does to run a Mod. Merc. Why?!
Click to expand...

Spot on; and for those 'saving' - instead of going out for my usual £200 meal on Saturday nights this week I am only going to spend £150; therefore saving £50; really :eyecrazy:
 
gwit said:
Spot on; and for those 'saving' - instead of going out for my usual £200 meal on Saturday nights this week I am only going to spend £150; therefore saving £50; really :eyecrazy:
Click to expand...

eco-eating :dunce:
 
gwit said:
Spot on; and for those 'saving' - instead of going out for my usual £200 meal on Saturday nights this week I am only going to spend £150; therefore saving £50; really :eyecrazy:
Click to expand...

You should try Shanghai Blues, Photon recommended it to Aidan and I, it's great and only costs about £30/head... is that prafeet? Where's my prafeet!
 
AkiranBlade said:
But without guaranteed profit, that worth should be sensible and limited to a certain extent.

To help put things into context....

It costs me less to run a Maserati than it does to run a Mod. Merc. Why?!
Click to expand...

How much peds you cycle with maserati, and whats ur avg return?
 
gwit said:
Spot on; and for those 'saving' - instead of going out for my usual £200 meal on Saturday nights this week I am only going to spend £150; therefore saving £50; really :eyecrazy:
Click to expand...

Well, how should we price stuff then?

The higher dps the quicker the loss. Terminator should be available from TT?

I think people are mixing things up in here: Playing for fun and for profit. If you are here to just profit, then even CLDs are worthless as one with ease could generate the same revenue a CLD does with just 5 PED and no significant investment of time.
 
WhiningSkeptic said:
Well, how should we price stuff then?

The higher dps the quicker the loss. Terminator should be available from TT?

I think people are mixing things up in here: Playing for fun and for profit. If you are here to just profit, then even CLDs are worthless as one with ease could generate the same revenue a CLD does with just 5 PED and no significant investment of time.
Click to expand...

Ofcourse items should carry a value, the question is if there is some fundamental base for the value of items today, or if its just another plateu before the knifes keep falling.
 
Tryx said:
How much peds you cycle with maserati, and whats ur avg return?
Click to expand...

About 15000 PED a year, the returns are about 85% wide grin and with the remainder in sad-face it needs fixing again. :ahh:

Whereas in EU, its about 60% sad-face crap returns again :)
 
I don't understand why saving MU on L guns is not considered profit :)

Like I like to hunt Atrox and I like to do it daily.

Either I use L gun that costs 120% and so every 100 ped of TT burned I throw 20 peds away.

Or I "Invest" in UNL sib gun and save those 20 peds every 100 TT peds burned.

After a year, the gun I bought paid for itself, and so my profit is the gun itself.
Next year, every 100 ped burned I "profit" 20 ped .. because if I would not have the gun, I pay 120 ped instead.

Again, all is easy math. Now tell me, isn't it worth to invest let's say 20k ped, if you can have it back in a year?
And then start saving decent amount of peds?

Both applies for UNL and UNL SIB guns, with the only condition that you want to have appropriate skills before you jump from SIB to normal UNL.
 
WhiningSkeptic said:
Well, how should we price stuff then?

The higher dps the quicker the loss. Terminator should be available from TT?

I think people are mixing things up in here: Playing for fun and for profit. If you are here to just profit, then even CLDs are worthless as one with ease could generate the same revenue a CLD does with just 5 PED and no significant investment of time.
Click to expand...

Its more about putting sensible figures next to digital items that do not produce profit for most and a small amount for the select few. Most of the items we're talking about aren't even rare anymore.

The only exception to all of this is Unique stuff. Its has the word in the title, there is only one of each, they're usages, for the most part, are limited and are more for show these days. The thing you pay for with a unique item is the exclusivity. This used to be the case with some of the modified and improved etc stuff. But there is just too much of it around now and for some of it, there is little point to their inflated statuses too, like the Improved EP-21. It doesn't do a great deal of damage, its economy is OK. There are other items around that are better now, and they don't even have an adjective prefixing their names.

This whole debate is largely moot anyway, because any change to the values would be seen over a great deal of time, if any change would happen at all. All down to the current owners not wishing to lose a bucket load of PEDs on those items. Understandable really.
 
PW3CKA said:
I don't understand why saving MU on L guns is not considered profit :)
Click to expand...

Really!?

If you have to keep depositing.... you're not profiting. (If you're also not sweating and trading!)
 
AkiranBlade said:
Really!?

If you have to keep depositing.... you're not profiting. (If you're also not sweating and trading!)
Click to expand...

I am not talking about depositing or profiting :)
 
AkiranBlade said:
This whole debate is largely moot anyway, because any change to the values would be seen over a great deal of time, if any change would happen at all. All down to the current owners not wishing to lose a bucket load of PEDs on those items. Understandable really.
Click to expand...

if i sell the gear i want to sell @ todays market, i will be facing a 20k ped loss..

But i can keep asking same price as i bougt the gear, but will never get it sold.. :dunce: on me..

Still, its not a loss until its sold! :cool:
 
AkiranBlade said:
The real kicker to all of this is the following:

If people perceive this system too expensive to get into, they will not entertain even trying it. Many have come and are now gone, because they perceive this system to be too expensive.

Nails in the coffin:
Click to expand...

"Fixing" 1x0 Axe "bug" was the start of the problems for me, and many others.



Grinding with that 1x0 is what got me interested in the game. I was excited to skill up and move up to see how all of that grinding improved my ability to play and break even. "Fixing" it was very frustrating for me and a lot of people starting out who after that saw MA for who they were instead of who they said they were and just said fuck it and moved on. It took me a while but I eventually did also, especially after all of the speculating re-sellers showed up and fubar'd the economy of all items at the time. E.g., people buying on auction and marking up and selling to their alts or friends thereby "setting" prices for the next fool to buy and sell to over and over until the prices where so unbelievable. Now there's a formula for you! But you still had people saying, "This is the price now, it won't go down from here!" Oh ya? Bull shit. I see some of these people are still here. I can only smile when I look at the prices of some items today have dropped and hope they continue to decline so it makes the game more affordable to play.
 
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