Help Valuing weapons

Can someone assist me with valuing weapons. Is there any real logic to it, or is it just think of a price and hope someone will pay that.

I have seen recent examples on here

1. Calytrek Spirit 38,000

2. Kallous 7 - tier 6 17,500

3. ASI Ten 29,000

4. Mod Merc 106,000

How do sellers get to their price? Is there some magic linked to DPS or Eco or just something else? Is there a mathematical formula? Really struggling with this

Value as always is determined by what someone is willing to pay.

A price of an item is ultimately given by what the buyer is willing to pay.

But aside from that, there are still few more general things.

Usually the main thing with UNL SIB guns is that they give you an economic advantage (might it be by their base ECO< or the fact you just have them maxed).

Now it's a simple math, like I just calculated for WhiningSkeptic.

On a 1200 HP mob a difference of 2.5 and 2.9 ECO is 0.68 ped.
People in merry mayhem scored 29k points in category 2, so they had to kill 14k of Araneatrox with those 1200 HP.

This makes a difference of 9500 ped.

Now, this is an extreme example comparing L gun with a DOA Strikehammer at Level 70 Hit/ DMG,

But take it, you invest 30k in 2.9 eco gun, you use it with three people for the competition, and the gun just paid itself

Altought the above is not really realistic example, it can still give you some idea why UNL SIB weapon would be valued higher

One of my golden rules, don't buy expensive gear if you cannot grind on a daily basis.
If you have limited play time, realistically calculate how much PEDs you save using the given gear, that should answer you if it makes sense to invest or not.

Thanks for the help - but it is not only eco is it? Is there not some dps part to the equation too, and it still doesn't really get to the value.

Lets take the mod merc - I am sure pre-2008 they were around the 200K mark. If there is a calculation then it would still apply today - so it must be perceived value as against actual value plus or minus a mark up for exclusivity?

Sorry, this might get a little ranty

Yes, indeed, MM's were at around 200k, even the trusty IM2870, which I currently use, used to sell for 100k at one point (I have a video in my archive to prove it!) now they're more like 25-30k.

The problem I see, is that these weapons were hyper marked up because of the fable "you can profit when using them."

The reality was just plain not true, and if it was, it was for a very select few ear-marked participants who succeeded on a regular basis.

I owned an MM, I did not see profit at all, this almost surely could be blamed on not maxing the weapon. However, if you need to max a weapon like that before you can make a profit, then in much the same way as the SIB healing tools with >120 heal, are in effect, not worth a great deal because you have to either buy-in or skill-in to be able to use it, which we all know, takes an inordinate amount of USD!

My take on this is as such:

If the item does not guarantee profit with moderate use while not maxing it, the item really isn't worth an epic amount of money.

If you have to max an item, and use it almost 24x7 to see some kind of profit, the item really isn't worth an epic amount of money.

Unfortunately, these items are now hyper inflated, people are going to be reluctant to let them go for less than they paid for them, regardless of the fact that they are not worth the kind of money being paid for/asked for them.

If on the other hand, you can profit from using the items, for an hour a day, without maxing them out (unless they are SIB but they are not as highly marked up generally anyway) then they are in fact worth a decent amount of money.

Here are some key points to understand:

If items 'worth' a lot of PED were profitable for most who use them, then those participants would not sell the item.

If items 'worth' a lot of PED were profitable for most who use them, people would not "not have a great deal of time to play", they would continue to keep reaping the profit.

If an item is 'worth' 10,000 USD, it should make around 250PED a month at 3% ROI, 333PED @ 4%, without having to spend every waking moment of the day to achieve it.

Otherwise

What is the point in spending 10,000 USD on some pixels and coding?

We see the same retardedness in other areas. Mining equipment, if modified, improved mining gear actually gave profit, people just would not sell it... so why do these things fetch thousands of USD!?

Healing tools, Modified and Improved again costing over 10,000 USD... why? Ultra-Eco-Ultra-Heal... you may say, that's great, but when the gun alone can't produce a positive balance in a hunt, what difference is the repair terminal going to make, you've still lost. Yes, people can come out of the woodwork and cite <voice type="accountant">Oh yes, but you would save thousand of PED in reduced repair over time, oh yes</voice>.

What-the-fuck-ever. If you don't profit with the gun alone, big fucking whoop, you've still lost.


Conclusion

The real sad bit about these items not guaranteeing profit is, what is the fucking point to this whole system, if having the ultimate gear can not harvest profit. Without that, there is nothing to aspire to, there is not volition to step up and buy this stuff when someone is lucky enough at the top to loot one. Any newbie coming in, does not now think, one day, I will be that strong, skilled, successful, because it doesn't yield profit, so what's the point.

This is also the reason why a huge amount of my old PE/EU buddies no longer log in. What's the point without profit.

<sadface />

So that it the real answer - it boils down to one quote

"The problem I see, is that these weapons were hyper marked up because of the fable "you can profit when using them.""

"The reality was just plain not true, and if it was, it was for a very select few ear-marked participants who succeeded on a regular basis."

Anyone care to defend this?

gwit said:

So that it the real answer - it boils down to one quote

"The problem I see, is that these weapons were hyper marked up because of the fable "you can profit when using them.""

"The reality was just plain not true, and if it was, it was for a very select few ear-marked participants who succeeded on a regular basis."

Anyone care to defend this?

Click to expand...

Not quite.

In the earlier days ( 2006-2010 ) it was actually possible to profit using the top gear ( eco 3.xxx IMK2 especially )

But as the market began to climb all other items were dragged along, rising in value due to speculation and the general idea that all items would rise forever, when enough air was inflated into the bubble it burst ( needed a trigger, irl recession helped with that )

Nowadays, its alot harder, even for imk2 users, its still possible but really hard.

The other items, well profit can be made, but again, if imk2 struggles, the other tools are not performing any better. And in the end its more up to the user than the tool, however the right tool helps the right user.

The only profit you should consider from having a UL SIB "investment" is that if it saves you ped compared to using L guns, and if it to some extent offers variation ( enhancers ) and some comfort in secured access to the tools you need, when you need them.

The days when guns were bought to rise in value is gone, and wont return.

ermik said:

Not quite.

In the earlier days ( 2006-2010 ) it was actually possible to profit using the top gear ( eco 3.xxx IMK2 especially )

But as the market began to climb all other items were dragged along, rising in value due to speculation and the general idea that all items would rise forever, when enough air was inflated into the bubble it burst ( needed a trigger, irl recession helped with that )

Nowadays, its alot harder, even for imk2 users, its still possible but really hard.

The other items, well profit can be made, but again, if imk2 struggles, the other tools are not performing any better. And in the end its more up to the user than the tool, however the right tool helps the right user.

The only profit you should consider from having a UL SIB "investment" is that if it saves you ped compared to using L guns, and if it to some extent offers variation ( enhancers ) and some comfort in secured access to the tools you need, when you need them.

The days when guns were bought to rise in value is gone, and wont return.

Click to expand...

Much comparable to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania

I guess the reference has been used before but its a good one..

No need to defend this. An item is a tool. And the one who uses the tool determines how much they can yield with it. However there are factors which will bring down prices of any item:

1 - The harder it is to profit the less are people willing to pay
2 - The more the market is saturated with comparable items the less people pay
3 - The more altenatives are given in other areas ( L items, Deeds, Ships .. ) the less people are willling to pay for the profitability of an item.

Taking these facotrs into account prices for items will continue to fall imho. That is not neccessarily a bad thing. It depends on which side you are standing, are you one of the people who bought items at inflatonary prices years ago, you will most likely feel it as a bad change. If you are a player who is seeking an item now to put it to use for your gameplay this change is good for you.

In general it is a good idea to value an item differently in future. The driver for the price won't be howe much profit you can yield with it, but how much does an item enrich your personal gamplay and gamestyle. And this changes how much people are willing to pay.

Jennson said:

In general it is a good idea to value an item differently in future. The driver for the price won't be howe much profit you can yield with it, but how much does an item enrich your personal gamplay and gamestyle. And this changes how much people are willing to pay.

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And its for exactly this reason that most of the real high end stuff is way more expensive than it should be. Finger in the air, I would say they are in the order of double their useful value.

What surprises me - and I know I keep jumping back in, is that no maths guy/girl has jumped in and said "the value is determined by this formula". It seems that it really does come down to how much anyone is willing to pay - and that is the only logic as values cannot be defended.

e.g. those selling the MM at 200k thought that was the true value, and we now see that even at 100k they are not 'jumping off the shelves'.

gwit said:

What surprises me - and I know I keep jumping back in, is that no maths guy/girl has jumped in and said "the value is determined by this formula". It seems that it really does come down to how much anyone is willing to pay - and that is the only logic as values cannot be defended.

e.g. those selling the MM at 200k thought that was the true value, and we now see that even at 100k they are not 'jumping off the shelves'.

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50-55k, I'd consider depositing, but I would still think long and hard about it, because it's purely 5,000 USD (3,500 GBP) for something that merely enables.

Demand and supply.

Pretty simple.



If people want it more, then it will sell faster.

Things like Mod mercs are different to the other guns listed and can't really be compared.

100k compared to 20k is a huge difference. $10,000 or $2,000. People can save for 2k not so much 10k. They sell slower because of that and most sellers/buyers need time to raise peds or find a buyer, so just because 1 100k item has not sold in a year does not mean that's not the price, it just means people can't afford it right now, but if they had the ped they would buy it.

Then it is up to the buyer, to drop the price if they need peds fast, entering new threshold of buyers.


Generally the more Eco/dps/damage the higher the price, as it reduces play cost.

For example: Take the ADJ fap, the buyers overpriced it ast 20k and were not moving from that price, one went on auction for something like 8k yesterday, as that is the price the market valued it.

Put a mod merc at 0ped and see what it hits, will probably be around 80-90k as thats what people are wiling to waste. However again, these can't be compared.


So yeah Demand and supply.

The price is what the seller/buyer are satisfied with. They reach that middle price point which they can't say no to.

Of course realistically speaking it's usually over what actual people are willing to pay for.
We are ruled by greed as human beings. So each buyer tries to get it as cheap as possible while the seller does the opposite obviously.

However uber rare items is a different story. Since here it's all about demand and supply obviously not enough supply and too much demand so in these cases it's all about how badly the seller needs the money or buyer wants it.

Art Jennifer said:

For example: Take the ADJ fap, the buyers overpriced it ast 20k and were not moving from that price, one went on auction for something like 8k yesterday, as that is the price the market valued it.

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the adjusted fap is a good example, as its price was kinda stable for a very long time, but started to drop after release of adj/imp/mod ek2350 and ek2600 (resulting ofc in a shift of supply and demand). but you're wrong with the price, as it sold for +12.5k BO

Supply and Demand is all good and well, however it is fueled with misinformation about the capabilities of the items in question.

Right now, going from memory I believe there are at least 3MM's up for sale. Plenty of supply, no demand.

Its all a matter of sensibility really. I could if I really wanted to, buy an MM every month, but I won't because the price is just not sensible.

Keep on mind that prices are also highly affected by better or worse items.

For example, if a laser carbine doing 52 dmg/sec at at 2.91 dmg/pec is +2k, then another gun that does 55 at 2.95 should cost a little bit more.

Add in qty. Due to the high amount on market and fear of even more coming, I just bought a hedoc mayhem for +900. I fully expect that item to sell for only +400 when I finally decide to sell mine.

Is there a formula?

How about we start with a basic Opalo ?

I promise I am not trying to destroy prices - just really keen to see if there is any true basis for the price of any item in this game.

gwit said:

Is there a formula?

How about we start with a basic Opalo ?

I promise I am not trying to destroy prices - just really keen to see if there is any true basis for the price of any item in this game.

Click to expand...

No. There is no formula.

An opalo is worth nothing. I paid tt+1 for mine and still feel like I overpaid.

gwit said:

Is there a formula?

How about we start with a basic Opalo ?

I promise I am not trying to destroy prices - just really keen to see if there is any true basis for the price of any item in this game.

Click to expand...

well, for example

if you burn 1 full tt Calytrek Spirit MK I (L) each day ( around 2300 ped cycle with dante ) you save 36,61 ped per day if you instead use the UL SIB version, assuming MU for the L gun is 135%

gwit said:

"The problem I see, is that these weapons were hyper marked up because of the fable "you can profit when using them."

Click to expand...

profitability with such weapons as the mod merc, foeripper, terminator, ect; is not exclusively the weapons responsibility. profitability comes from the owners knowledge, time, ped bankroll and dedication. the weapon is just a tool like a hammer to build a house with. ASI Ten, Calytrek Spirit, Kallous 7 are just regular wood and iron hammers versus modmerc/impstrikehammer/Imk2/FoeRipper/terminator are more like nail guns. but if some one has no clue how to build a house the tools are rendered useless to them.

the weapon is not at fault if profitability is not obtained, the user is at fault. they simply dont know how best to use the tools.


if any of that makes sense.

PS there is no real formula so stop asking.

Wow sensible discussion in forum, I'm impressed.

There's obviously another reason to consider here which effects weapons. The game became too top heavy with talented, highly skilled, and knowledgable players. Part of that problem was compounded by those chipping in to amazing levels, which would be unachievable skilling naturally (and then using that gear).

I've heard rumour of huge profits, which I believe before the game changed.

Therefore the game simply couldn't maintain a model that top end gear continued to provide profit. So the solution was to introduce eco across the board, from newbie weapons to top end. This meant that "skills" still matter but the profit from weapons probably doesn't have the impact it once had.

A typical example is the 1 ped looted guns. If you can't profit with a 1 ped eco decay gun, then the solution is not gear it must be skills.

It's refreshing of course to see some truths being spoken, rather than the usual protected interests.

Reading with interest.

Rick

Value of items is just a hot balloon of air because the true value is TT and that's it. Every pec of Mu on a item is made up by desires of our participants. If I try to tax a price for a gun I use the following (un)logic

1. Blp or Laser / Blp = more expensive
2. Rifle or Handgun / Rifle = more expensive
3. What max UL eco amp fit on the gun
4. What's max dps on tier 10 with best amp attached If its below 120 dps I reduce value
5. What's the attack per second ? 60 is good, 80+ is +$$$ , 55 is my minimum. <55 I greatly reduce value
6. What's max range ? 40m for Pistol is ok. 60m for Rifle is ok. Higher = a lot more expensive.
7. Gun eco 2.9x yes or no , if no = reduced price

Especially range is a huge factor in price, just compare ASI TEN and MKII TEN, the handgun is superior in close combat, yet the rifle goes for a lot more peds. Being able to kill some mobs before they reach you is a factor for the price. Some older guns drop in price because they can't compare in dps anymore. There is no formula to determine the price. Its all about what everyone believe this gun can do or can't do.

ermik said:

well, for example

if you burn 1 full tt Calytrek Spirit MK I (L) each day ( around 2300 ped cycle with dante ) you save 36,61 ped per day if you instead use the UL SIB version, assuming MU for the L gun is 135%

Click to expand...

This.

If you buy item to use it then you save every time you use it, and even if prices fell a bit in future then it was still profitable, given that you used it enough. The more one uses gear the more benefit.

If we dwell into historical prices, then how much was Mod Fap at beginning? 20k PED? And around 2009? 500kPED? Does it mean it should cost 20 or 500k now? Definitely no.

Price is determined by combination of many factors, such as:
- usability of item (if Terminator is sure to win multiple prices in MM then it will be worth much more than any other weapon; if Mod Hedoc allow for fast combat fapping in PvE and PvP then it will be worth more than slower Fap)
- financial benefits coming from using it (saving MU on not using similar L items; offering services; ability to profit with imk2 or MM)
- rarity
- availability of similar gear
- ability to use it (somebody with enough skills to use Slugstorm will value it more than somebody who can't us it)
- and few more factors

At the end buyer can't demand lower prices because one can't afford certain gear he/she want yo use. There was few who tried that but at the end they had to adjust to reality.
Same goes for sellers. Setting reasonable price is not an easy thing, especially for gear that is not common enough to be traded often enough.

I'm glad this thread was started. Interesting read and great discussion points.

I started in 2008, and was hooked. I always dreamed of owning a mod merc and mod fap, and made it my ultimate goal. One day...yes, one day. But, over time, my views changed. I don't play as often, and it occurred to me...am I really willing to "invest" the value of a brand new car to own these items? Then we had the global recession and....*poof*. There went that dream.

Today's EU is vastly different from my first few years, and I think in a good way. The markets been flooded with new guns/faps/chips and even melee amps and thus prices have dropped. It's bad for those that invested before, but good for new players that want an advantage by reducing their cost to play the game. I don't consider the value of an item based on "profit", but reduction in "cost". Would it be nice to own an imp Mk.II? Hell yeah, but any UL SIB gun that I don't have to pay MU on Limited versions is great. Those L guns over and over and over add up. At one point I was paying 60-100ped in MU every time I bought a gun, and this went on for months. I forcefully push that thought way in the back of my mind before reality sinks in at how much I "wasted".

Sorry, got carried away. Value of items? As others have said, supply and demand. I own the HK S1X1. Not the greatest at dmg/pec, but sure beats paying MU every time I need a gun (during events you see prices inflate, and it sucks when your weapon of choice runs out), and I can tier it (T6 atm) if I wanted to hunt bigger mobs.

Great post and nice discussions.

gwit said:

Is there a formula?

Click to expand...

gwit said:

Is there a formula?

How about we start with a basic Opalo ?

I promise I am not trying to destroy prices - just really keen to see if there is any true basis for the price of any item in this game.

Click to expand...

No, there never was a formula and never will be.

Why do my eyeglasses cost $400 bucks and my 40 inch tv I use as a monitor that shows hd porn and gets it's picture from outer freakin' space is $350?

My glasses are about an ounce of non-precious metal with 2 lenses that some idiot ground down in 12 minutes in a back room.

How can this be?

For the same reason ANYTHING sells for what it sells for: People willing to pay it.

Why do computers always stay around 1k at best buy? They give you some half-ass reasons if you ask them, sure, but we all know it's complete horseshit.

You think the track homes built during the housing boom (in US roughly 2002-2008) were actually fair prices that took into the cost to construct, and the 1/4 acre of treeless backfill they call a yard? Heck no...but people still bought them.

All it is is someone offering something and someone buying. Because they want it. There's your formula. $=want

Sure we will pay more for a MacLaren or a Mod Merc, but ask either to justify the price with raw data? Good luck.

I can't help but think you are looking this with a bias that says "holy cow, we can't prove these are worth this much, so they MUST be over valued" If that is true, stop...it doesn't work like that.

So nobody needs to look for reasons why shit ain't worth what people pay. It IS worth what people pay, and that is all that matters.

If it isn't worth 100k ped to you, but it is to someone else, then it's still worth 100k ped.


Edit: Also, the one item people love to figure out a formula for: UL mining amps, is also complete BS. It's just people making it look like a deal by constructing some stupid formula based on using it x amount of time every day for a few years.

It is still arbitrary, doesn't take into account unknown variables that may exist, and though it may have tricked a few into paying higher prices, the fact is that most of the people who bought them bought them because it was worth it to them...not because what it was worth it over x hours per day over x amount of years given x amount of L mu avoided. The "formula" is still meaningless with the one item that the formula looks the most meaningful.

No formula means shit if people are not willing to buy it. New L7 UL amp contest winner learned that already.

EVERY gun is this game is worth the price it sold for at the time. Period.

People will pay more for the best...whether its imk2 or MM or MacLaren or Ferrari or whatever it is...if its better than the rest, people will pay, and what they pay is what it's worth.

All this is probably summed up best here:

Fiona Simmons said:

Its all about what everyone believe this gun can do or can't do.

Click to expand...

Exactly right...same with UL amps etc. The "proper" value of anything is different among every person who tries to value it, because they all look at it subjectively, so the only true price is obtained by finding a buyer willing to pay x amount and selling it. Anything else is an exercise in frustration because no 2 people will look at it the same way.

I agree with many posters who refer you to supply and demand and what the buyer is willing to pay. However there are a number of factors that determine the worth of a weapon to you and math can play a part.

Firstly you need to think about whether the weapon is fit for purpose. If you want to hunt leviathan, then a low dps gun is useless for your needs. If you want to hunt proteron then a rifle is worth more to you than a pistol or a knife. Similary if you are hunting small to medium mobs (due to your current defense levels) then a high damage weapon is not a good choice for you. It doesn't matter how eco the weapon is if it doesn't help you play the way you want to play.

Secondly, it's no longer relevant to think of weapons as a growth investment. If you are looking for your investment to retain its value or grow over time then its better to look at something like land deeds.

Weapon price relates directly to risk. If you are looking at a weapon that is on sale for 20k you need to think about the risk that it will drop in value. How much efficiency (increased profit or reduced costs) do you need to generate to offset the risk? That's where comparing an UNL weapon to an L equivlant can be useful. There was an example further up in the thread. Additionally your hunting frequency and ped cycle per period are relevant as that impacts the amount of benefit you can generate before any price changes. Of course if a weapon is going to increase your losses you need to ask yourself why you would buy it. Fun factor is a legitimate response to that question. At the end of the day you are going to have to work our how much risk you are willing to take and that is going to set your upper limit on any weapon.

Now, assume you are looking at a weapon that is actually useful and the price is within acceptable risk level. Have a look at other similar weapons including L and UNL. If the weapon you are looking at is more expensive than the other weapons then there needs to be a good reason, whether it be increased dpp, better fit for amp x, range etc. If possible run some scenarios with each weapon to determing the relative economic benefit. Perhaps the weapon you want does save you more in the long run but is it worth paying the extra price for that benefit? Only you can decide.

Some years ago I bought a Korss H400 for around +6.5k. There is no way I would get that now as there are similar weapons out there these days for several k less. To any prospective buyer, it's value is going to be strongly affected by the reduced price of the other similar weapons. I'm ok with that because I still use it with appropriately sized mobs. It's one of my more eco weapons and it continues to save me money compared to L alternatives. Sp from my perspective the price was justified. That's what it is worth to me. But I'm unlikely to find a buyer that agrees with me. Eventually once I stop using the H400, it's utility will drop to 0 and it's worth to me will be it's TT value. Then I'll put it on the market and see what I can get for it. And I'll sell it for more than it is worth, or exactly what it is worth depending on who is being asked.

Regards,
KikkiJikki

To Everyone

Thanks for all your contributions. A really sensible discussion; no nonsense and some real thought. Thanks again. Shows what a great community this can be, that real people spend real time and thought to give great answers.

gwit said:

Thanks for all your contributions. A really sensible discussion; no nonsense and some real thought. Thanks again. Shows what a great community this can be, that real people spend real time and thought to give great answers.

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After reading trough all our chatter, how about sharing your ideas how to value items ?