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Worst crappy ass dpp sib?

Xen said:
Not a good comparison as some are sib (maxed) and some are not (not maxed). So you are mixing dpp and maxed/not maxed.
Click to expand...

I think that was his intent. To be able to compare amongst them.
 
I used to test mkV+a203 vs. mkV+eamp13 a *lot* some years ago (still do but not that often).
These tests were for mainly for skillgain, but ofc, loot was noticed too.
On some mobs mkV+eamp13 worked way better, on some other mobs mkV+a203 was the
best choice, and on a lot of mobs both setups were not that good. :silly2::laugh:

Since my tests were about skillgain, I didn't give a f**k about eco, I kept going no matter what.
The negative with that was I lost a lot, the positive was that I saw a lot of interesting things, which
I probably hadn't seen if I had gone for eco tests instead.
Today, most mobs are probably changed in stats, so I guess I have to redo all tests for those
mobs that were good for me at that time... sadly, I guess I have to do it on those that were bad, too. :D
 
minim said:
Then don't bother. 1000ped up/downs are nothing when using uneco stuff.
Click to expand...

Turnover in PED has nothing to do with it. It's all about the sample size, ie how many mobs you kill.

carle said:
Most crucial clue supporting DPP are key for returns is.

Axe 1.0 was Nerfed too alot lower Dpp.
Íf Dpp dont matter why couldnt MA have those blades around in game the way they were?
Click to expand...

THIS. FFS.

At least DPP was the most important aspect back in the days.

AkiranBlade said:
The increase in loot return against cost to kill has already been proven some time ago by Jimmy B when he did his low dmg weapon vs. high regen mob test.

For digest... (please don't necro.)

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?101842-Some-utterly-insane-tests
Click to expand...

Without reading the entire thing: I think that thread is mainly about regen, not DPP. No?

xian said:
damage /per pec matter as i think it is damage related. At some tme it really did , now it's influence is neglectible.
MA did so many change to the loot that nowaday it's almost worthless. When 90% of time the loot is less than half what you spend you don't really care about eco, you MUST have some nice multiplier in your run. Low loot range is so wide, be it 10% or 30% and i don't count nova no loot.
Your friends are not a nice dpp gun, they are mob choice, location and a swedish proxy/luck.
I tried to play with the equivalent of a ~5 dmg per pec weapon, i saw same range loot as if i used a ~2.9 one.
Click to expand...

First of all: You've really needed big multipliers ever since the no-loot update. How long ago was that, eight years or something?

Secondly: There are no 5 DPP weapons.

Thirdly: You don't know DPP is negligible.

Dan59 said:
That developer-notes can be walid now or was walid when they relased it but we cant be sure it will be tomorrow.

In first years of PE i played a lot with melee wich today is les than 2.2 eco and nobody maxed it ( needed lvl 100) and i did fine, but it was same with imk2 or any other gun where ppl had 3 or les HA, CHA lol.
Today using castorian survival enblade 10 (maxed ofc) we can consider as pedcard fast killer.
Developers talk all arround but they do not answer how come they let us play for years with such weapons and not maxed.
Also they do not answer why MA inplement non eco gear and tools and then tell us how dumb we are to use them.

Any way we can use super DPP or DPS things but if MA change loot or cause that MU change or other factors, enviroment, dificulty, regen, hp ect we wasted time testing, its dinamic lol.
Click to expand...

You must surely know they changed how stuff works. DPP mattered a lot long ago. Look at 1x0 axe. Look at the g'damn locked avatars who got banned for macroing/botting/profiting with imk2 on Longu. I don't remember their names, the ones with the mourner LA.

How much does DPP matter today? Well, no one really knows. But there are probably more determining factors in success.

Ardorj said:
That's mine (and why is this post ignored?)

A short (I'll try) summary for those who are afraid to click the link and read all the pages. 4x Powerfist and later 1x sword on Halix, Arkadian mob with 30 - 50 HP encountered. Used weapons: Castorian EnKnuckles-A (2,738 dpp); Castorian EnKnuckles-1 (2,032 dpp) ; Mux-1 EnergyGlove (1,345 dpp); Mux-2 EnergyGlove (1,140 dpp); Laconian Sword (2,851 dpp).
Only Laconian and EnKnucles-A maxed.
Results from best to worse: Laconian (91.1%); EnKnucles-A (85.7%); EnKnucles-1 (78.8%); Mux-1 (66.1%); Mux-2 (58.9%).
I've killed over 12k Halixes for this experiment. I costed me a little less then 2400 PED on weapon decay alone and a bit more then 2500 PED on decay for all. I got just about not yet 1800 PED back, that's an average return of 72.5%.
Weapons with lower dpp gives more skill-value per PED.
Probably a weapon with better dpp gives items with more markup.
A weapon with lower dpp gives more and higher globals, but it's only to compensate a bit for the other crap loots.

I now hunt with Khorum Ice Dagger (2,871 dpp) for another experiment, Hadraada this time, and I'm at 96,1% return.

I wish you the best of luck with your experiment. But more then that, I wish you returns that help you get a clear picture of what dpp does.

Ardorj :)
Click to expand...

It's ignored because comparing maxed equipment to non-maxed equipment proves nothing. If you want to prove something you must put one against another on equal terms. So if you want to compare the DPP of two different items, they must in all other respects be identical. Otherwise it will be hard as hell to prove anything.
 
Allow me to summarise what could potentially matter in a successful hunting career*:

Overkill.
Overamping.
DPP.
DPS.
Regen.
Weapon type.
Mob type.
Events.
Time of day.
Euro lotto.
Number spiral.
cK members working night shit at Burger King.
Marcos nightmares.
Number of trams leaving Järntorget at midnight.
Hamster depreciation.
Jason mask.
Noggin's underpants and the fact his shop is still unused.

:wise:

*Complete bullshit.


Edit: May also matter:

Mudkicker's boot.
Records of EP forums.
Chocolate.
The slide bug.
G'damn luck?!



Edit 2: I'm drunk. Good night. Go to hell.
 
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Konve said:
Edit 2: I'm drunk. Good night. Go to hell.
Click to expand...

:rofl: I would love to see a plot of BAC vs. progress through your two posts.

I think it's pretty clear dpp was very important in 2004 for the example stated like the axe 1x0 nerf. As you also mentioned though, i don't think that can be considered proof it's as important now.

Another evidence about the importance of dpp could be comments from a certain MA employee (can't say who) that the imk2 was a huge mistake. The most obvious reason for that is that its huge DPP advantage makes it too good. Of course, a cynic could also argue that the reason is actually that it gives a large enough dpp difference to allow one to see that dpp isn't that important, but there are other weapons with very low dpp, so that doesn't seem likely.

But again, that was then, and now may be different.
 
Doer said:
:rofl: I would love to see a plot of BAC vs. progress through your two posts.

I think it's pretty clear dpp was very important in 2004 for the example stated like the axe 1x0 nerf. As you also mentioned though, i don't think that can be considered proof it's as important now.

Another evidence about the importance of dpp could be comments from a certain MA employee (can't say who) that the imk2 was a huge mistake. The most obvious reason for that is that its huge DPP advantage makes it too good. Of course, a cynic could also argue that the reason is actually that it gives a large enough dpp difference to allow one to see that dpp isn't that important, but there are other weapons with very low dpp, so that doesn't seem likely.

But again, that was then, and now may be different.
Click to expand...

I think the ongoing rarity, and the cost to tier high DPP weapons, is a good hint that they do have a benefit in terms of overall TT return.
 
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Konve said:
It's ignored because comparing maxed equipment to non-maxed equipment proves nothing. If you want to prove something you must put one against another on equal terms. So if you want to compare the DPP of two different items, they must in all other respects be identical. Otherwise it will be hard as hell to prove anything.
Click to expand...

Well, first off: the Laconian Sword and EnKnucles-A are both SIB, maxed of course with the slightly better DPP having a slightly better return. The EnKnucles-1, Mux-1 & 2 are all three old-skool maxed at lvl 100, wich I'm far from ever getting. These three also give better returns (but still bad) with better Eco.
Second: when you plot a line of Eco vs. Return for the maxed-out weapons and non-maxed-out in one graph, then the first line will be above the second. That means that the return for non-maxed-out is worsend then what is expected when calculating with the theoretical DPP.
Third: "[...] in all other respects be identical." is impossible. There are no two weapons alike in firerate, range and damage and only a difference in Eco. It will be hard to even find two weapons with two stats. alike.
Fourth: The question if Eco matters or not is like a theological question. One believes, the other doesn't and both can find arguments from MA-Employees, personal experience and tales from other players that will prove their believe. Some people can go from one side to the other, as I've done myself. Some people will remain in doubt, but the fast mayority will remain firm to their believe-system about Eco/DPP. I've read once that leading scientist are the same with the question of Global Climat Change. It's their believe-system in the cores of their minds that makes them say this or that is truth, not the evidence they themselves and others present.
Fifth: I dare you to do a likewise experiment.
 
Ardorj said:
Well, first off: the Laconian Sword and EnKnucles-A are both SIB, maxed of course with the slightly better DPP having a slightly better return. The EnKnucles-1, Mux-1 & 2 are all three old-skool maxed at lvl 100, wich I'm far from ever getting. These three also give better returns (but still bad) with better Eco.
Second: when you plot a line of Eco vs. Return for the maxed-out weapons and non-maxed-out in one graph, then the first line will be above the second. That means that the return for non-maxed-out is worsend then what is expected when calculating with the theoretical DPP.
Third: "[...] in all other respects be identical." is impossible. There are no two weapons alike in firerate, range and damage and only a difference in Eco. It will be hard to even find two weapons with two stats. alike.
Fourth: The question if Eco matters or not is like a theological question. One believes, the other doesn't and both can find arguments from MA-Employees, personal experience and tales from other players that will prove their believe. Some people can go from one side to the other, as I've done myself. Some people will remain in doubt, but the fast mayority will remain firm to their believe-system about Eco/DPP. I've read once that leading scientist are the same with the question of Global Climat Change. It's their believe-system in the cores of their minds that makes them say this or that is truth, not the evidence they themselves and others present.
Fifth: I dare you to do a likewise experiment.
Click to expand...

Climate change is proven with evidence. Only 3% of scientists believes it isn't anthropologetic. Don't mix up science and faith.

Regarding dpp towards eco; it can be proven or disproven simply by collecting enough data and analyzing it.
 
Ardorj said:
Well, first off: the Laconian Sword and EnKnucles-A are both SIB, maxed of course with the slightly better DPP having a slightly better return. The EnKnucles-1, Mux-1 & 2 are all three old-skool maxed at lvl 100, wich I'm far from ever getting. These three also give better returns (but still bad) with better Eco.
Second: when you plot a line of Eco vs. Return for the maxed-out weapons and non-maxed-out in one graph, then the first line will be above the second. That means that the return for non-maxed-out is worsend then what is expected when calculating with the theoretical DPP.
Third: "[...] in all other respects be identical." is impossible. There are no two weapons alike in firerate, range and damage and only a difference in Eco. It will be hard to even find two weapons with two stats. alike.
Fourth: The question if Eco matters or not is like a theological question. One believes, the other doesn't and both can find arguments from MA-Employees, personal experience and tales from other players that will prove their believe. Some people can go from one side to the other, as I've done myself. Some people will remain in doubt, but the fast mayority will remain firm to their believe-system about Eco/DPP. I've read once that leading scientist are the same with the question of Global Climat Change. It's their believe-system in the cores of their minds that makes them say this or that is truth, not the evidence they themselves and others present.
Fifth: I dare you to do a likewise experiment.
Click to expand...

Suggested weapons that exist both as SIB and Non-SIB:
Karma Killer/Karma Killer(L)
Maddox IV/Maddox IV (L)
Mod EP40/Mod EP40 (L) (bet its quite rare even as L)
 
I'm in the "dpp-is-a-condition-slider-in-hunting" camp, definitely.
(as described in the post below, and many more before it)
sachi.mk2 said:
From my tests it matters on mobs without a multiplier; a normal Caperon young will loot 0.80-5.00ped no matter the dpp. So, Mindark is correct in that regard, dmg per pec will produce better loot in that regard. It's a question how globals/hofs are produced: if it is random or based on ped cycled etc. Personally, when using an ml35me+evil at 2.450 eco, my return rate was falling off a cliff one week: then I suddenly received 3 hofs in 5 malcs (magically back to 90%). Coincidence? maybe, such loots are so rare it's hard to test.
Click to expand...

Now, considering the above, how do u feel reading the suggestions "remove the globals from logs"?
It's the blind leading the blind in a pitch black room... :smoke:

The real question is what will be the overall end result after an extremely large sample. How many other factors will play into the equation? Factors like: location, time, overkill... or even more exotic ones like number matching)

The system is designed so we can never prove it with any certainty. That's the whole point, to keep us quessing. The day someone manages to prove it, the system will be changed.

Some ppl say it has already happened.

:laugh:
 
Fifth said:
The system is designed so we can never prove it with any certainty. That's the whole point, to keep us quessing. The day someone manages to prove it, the system will be changed.

Some ppl say it has already happened.

:laugh:
Click to expand...

Correct, that is always the problem.
 
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Some things would be negated:

Overkill for instance. If you overkill with the poor DPP weapon and with the good DPP weapon and they are utilised at the same competency, you hunt in the same way, they should both cancel out either side of the proverbial equation.

When performing these tests, it would make most sense to do a large solid run of one tool, then do a large solid run of the other tool, to ensure a fair comparison. It might also be prudent to remove exceptional loots from the log as a participants personal loot return has a habit of chucking out a big one when you're trying to do these kinds of things! :)

The other thing to do, and this requires good scientific discipline, is to do the runs (either 1, 2 or 3 of them) at the same time each day, or similar. What I mean by that is, if you hunt Mon-Fri evenings, then keep the samples in those time frames. If you only hunt at the weekend, then keep your hunts in the same time frame. The reason I say this is that, I see a massive difference in the returns I get on weekdays, compared to the weekend (which typically feel like I've got a vacuum next to my PED card.)

Hope this guidance helps.
 
AkiranBlade said:
Some things would be negated:

Overkill for instance. If you overkill with the poor DPP weapon and with the good DPP weapon and they are utilised at the same competency, you hunt in the same way, they should both cancel out either side of the proverbial equation.

When performing these tests, it would make most sense to do a large solid run of one tool, then do a large solid run of the other tool, to ensure a fair comparison. It might also be prudent to remove exceptional loots from the log as a participants personal loot return has a habit of chucking out a big one when you're trying to do these kinds of things! :)

The other thing to do, and this requires good scientific discipline, is to do the runs (either 1, 2 or 3 of them) at the same time each day, or similar. What I mean by that is, if you hunt Mon-Fri evenings, then keep the samples in those time frames. If you only hunt at the weekend, then keep your hunts in the same time frame. The reason I say this is that, I see a massive difference in the returns I get on weekdays, compared to the weekend (which typically feel like I've got a vacuum next to my PED card.)

Hope this guidance helps.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the suggestions.

I'm currently working on six weapons of various types where I intend to make comparisons between the effective dpp. I have both good and bad eco weapons with an without notable overkill so that in the end I should have data of all types. I'm hunting around the same time every time, same spawn of mobs and do equally long runs.

The size of the mob makes it impossible to hit huge, and even if I would hit a very, very large multiplier that would just be a bit of statistical noise once all the data is gathered.

At the end it should be possible to spot, if any existing, effects of good and bad eco, little and large overkill, differences between effective dpp and maxed dpp.
 
WhiningSkeptic said:
Climate change is proven with evidence. Only 3% of scientists believes it isn't anthropologetic. Don't mix up science and faith.

Regarding dpp towards eco; it can be proven or disproven simply by collecting enough data and analyzing it.
Click to expand...

Evidence that is corrupted... sensors near heat sources are not valid. Let's leave that out of the discussion .
 
Ardorj said:
: "[...] in all other respects be identical." is impossible. There are no two weapons alike in firerate, range and damage and only a difference in Eco.
.
Click to expand...

EP-40+a104 vs EP-41.
Same dmg, hit rate, etc., but different eco.
 
Ardorj said:
Well, first off: the Laconian Sword and EnKnucles-A are both SIB, maxed of course with the slightly better DPP having a slightly better return. The EnKnucles-1, Mux-1 & 2 are all three old-skool maxed at lvl 100, wich I'm far from ever getting. These three also give better returns (but still bad) with better Eco.
Second: when you plot a line of Eco vs. Return for the maxed-out weapons and non-maxed-out in one graph, then the first line will be above the second. That means that the return for non-maxed-out is worsend then what is expected when calculating with the theoretical DPP.
Third: "[...] in all other respects be identical." is impossible. There are no two weapons alike in firerate, range and damage and only a difference in Eco. It will be hard to even find two weapons with two stats. alike.
Fourth: The question if Eco matters or not is like a theological question. One believes, the other doesn't and both can find arguments from MA-Employees, personal experience and tales from other players that will prove their believe. Some people can go from one side to the other, as I've done myself. Some people will remain in doubt, but the fast mayority will remain firm to their believe-system about Eco/DPP. I've read once that leading scientist are the same with the question of Global Climat Change. It's their believe-system in the cores of their minds that makes them say this or that is truth, not the evidence they themselves and others present.
Fifth: I dare you to do a likewise experiment.
Click to expand...
As I mentioned earlier, done "some" tests with mkV+a203 vs. mkV+eamp13.
Only difference between these two setups are type of damage done, decay and tt-value amps.
As soon as I can afford to do larger runs (and a lot of them) we'll see if I can get similar result
as I had years ago. Those tests showed that most eco wasn't always best in the end....
 
AkiranBlade said:
When performing these tests, it would make most sense to do a large solid run of one tool, then do a large solid run of the other tool, to ensure a fair comparison.
Click to expand...

Actually the very best protocol would be to alternate every other mob to compare two weapons, but that would require tracking every loot. This would cancel out almost all parameters except the differences between the weapons.
 
Doer said:
Actually the very best protocol would be to alternate every other mob to compare two weapons, but that would require tracking every loot.
Click to expand...

IT would be absurd.

Only reason to try it would be if the results turn out inconclusive.
 
Doer said:
Actually the very best protocol would be to alternate every other mob to compare two weapons, but that would require tracking every loot. This would cancel out almost all parameters except the differences between the weapons.
Click to expand...

And it won't show the true story. When hunting with low eco stuff the low periods are lower and the high are higher. Cycle 0,5 mill peds with crap eco, switch and do 0,5mill peds with eco gear and we will still argue about the parameters for the test but it's better than switching to much imo. It can take some time before the game compansates for a loss.
 
minim said:
And it won't show the true story. When hunting with low eco stuff the low periods are lower and the high are higher. Cycle 0,5 mill peds with crap eco, switch and do 0,5mill peds with eco gear and we will still argue about the parameters for the test but it's better than switching to much imo. It can take some time before the game compansates for a loss.
Click to expand...

That's why you do small mobs.

When the loss would require multiple mob specific all time highs on the hunted mob in order to compensate you know it's not going to happen.

Edit: Or they start coming throughout the process, and you can tell soon enough that the system does in fact compensate.
 
minim said:
And it won't show the true story. When hunting with low eco stuff the low periods are lower and the high are higher. Cycle 0,5 mill peds with crap eco, switch and do 0,5mill peds with eco gear and we will still argue about the parameters for the test but it's better than switching to much imo. It can take some time before the game compansates for a loss.
Click to expand...

Tracking each individual loot will give the info needed.
 
WhiningSkeptic said:
... and you can tell soon enough that the system does in fact compensate.
Click to expand...
Here's how i believe it works on the "grassroot level" - the system dishes out random ballpark numbers for most loot events, until the server goes into it's next calculation cycle. This is the only point when your overall balance is calculated (as a rule it's always negative), maybe some additional safety protocols are run and if the system figures you should be compensated it generates a multiplier. Result - u get a mini or a global (at the next looting event).
That's why globals come in waves, and it's only logical. It would be a waste of server resources and network bandwith to query the local game client after each kill.

If there's any truth in the above statement, a global is a compensation by it's very nature.
Coming back to topic at hand, what interests us here is what exactly is compensated (and to what extent).




(That said, some globals/HoFs/ATHs are prolly coming from a different source and follow a different logic.... but it's a different story entirely)
 
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ermik said:
Tracking each individual loot will give the info needed.
Click to expand...

no, since the payback can come when he switched to the eco gun it's not gonna cut it.
 
minim said:
no, since the payback can come when he switched to the eco gun it's not gonna cut it.
Click to expand...

Each loot is within a range, if that range somehow gets changed depending on what tool you use ( assuming same dps ) then we have a tiny bit more to the puzzle, its not about tracking the magic 90% ish, its about seeing if loot adapts to the tools we use.

And these tests should always remove loots way above normal, to be conclusive.

But i know you disagree.

I think tracking non multiplier loots and plotting them compared to other tools used can show us something.
 
ermik said:
Each loot is within a range, if that range somehow gets changed depending on what tool you use ( assuming same dps ) then we have a tiny bit more to the puzzle, its not about tracking the magic 90% ish, its about seeing if loot adapts to the tools we use.

And these tests should always remove loots way above normal, to be conclusive.

But i know you disagree.

I think tracking non multiplier loots and plotting them compared to other tools used can show us something.
Click to expand...

That would only show you how eco affects individual loots. It will not tell you anything about long term use. minim is right.
 
Xen said:
That would only show you how eco affects individual loots. It will not tell you anything about long term use. minim is right.
Click to expand...

Yes, I think you and Minim are right. From my test I've seen a limited evidence that globals are more frequent and higher in value when using a weapon with lower Eco. Downside of using a lower DPP-weapon is that the results after many mobs killed are lower, even with more and higher globals.
I've also seen a limited evidence that Eco of the weapon affects the type of loot, I am in doubt of that myself however.
 
Xen said:
That would only show you how eco affects individual loots. It will not tell you anything about long term use. minim is right.
Click to expand...

If there is a avatar specific payback mechanism we can close this thread and stop recording.

What minim basicly say is, no data sample will ever be big enough for him to accept as proof....
 
ermik said:
If there is a avatar specific payback mechanism we can close this thread and stop recording.

What minim basicly say is, no data sample will ever be big enough for him to accept as proof....
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure there is. It is not a "personal lootpool" as many like to call it but they do track your input and give out the deserved output. I guess everyone has the same chances of looting items/oils and so on so it's not personal but the TT return is personal.

Not really. It depends on what kind of avatar you have. If you have one with stable loot like mine 2-300k on random mobs would do it for me. My returns are usually stable within 100k or so anyways. A volatile avatar would need some more to be sure the big hof to compansate is included.
 
minim said:
I'm pretty sure there is. It is not a "personal lootpool" as many like to call it but they do track your input and give out the deserved output. I guess everyone has the same chances of looting items/oils and so on so it's not personal but the TT return is personal.

Not really. It depends on what kind of avatar you have. If you have one with stable loot like mine 2-300k on random mobs would do it for me. My returns are usually stable within 100k or so anyways. A volatile avatar would need some more to be sure the big hof to compansate is included.
Click to expand...

There is no personal lootpool.
That mean there si no tracking of your personal individual input.
There is tracking of multitude of imputs (spendings, looses ect) on location, region, area.
System compensate inputs on that given area to randomn ava on that area.
In poor words you can hunt a lot (imput) and you have same chance to get compensation hof as anyone else in that area even if they didnt hunt as much as you.
How big will be that hof that you deserved and another player got could be determined ( a part of generall sum of looses of all hunters in that area as a base ) also of something on that avatar (skills, luck ect ) as multiplier.
 
ermik said:
Each loot is within a range, if that range somehow gets changed depending on what tool you use ( assuming same dps ) then we have a tiny bit more to the puzzle, its not about tracking the magic 90% ish, its about seeing if loot adapts to the tools we use.

/.../

I think tracking non multiplier loots and plotting them compared to other tools used can show us something.
Click to expand...
Yes it could show us if the default bounds for the base loot are different for different dpp. Maybe, maybe not.
Suppose we'll see a definite difference in the base loots. Ok, so?
This knowledge gives us nothing. Without the full picture it's totally useless.
It's the overall end result that we need, end result that includes not only the base loots but also compensations (globals,hofs).

ermik said:
And these tests should always remove loots way above normal, to be conclusive.
Click to expand...
I do agree with you in principle. I tend to believe there's 2 kinds of globals/HoFs - a standard compensation and purely random. Trouble is, we have no way to distinguish one from another.
Theoretically the bounds for the maximum value for the ordinary compensation-global-multiplier should be set lower and for the purely random HoF's higher. But what are those bounds? We can see no cap for the globals/HoF's for any one single mob and maturity, the values are evenly spread all over the spectrum. This means if there's 2 kinds they must be overlapping. Hell, we cant be sure if the theory about 2 kinds is true at all. Maybe there's just one? Maybe theres more than 2? From our end we can never tell for sure.

Truth is, we're fighting against impossible odds with our eyes blindfolded.
In this situation any line thats removed from the log would only make the whole test questionable. To remain on the solid ground we have to forget all our favourite theories and look at the raw data as is, without any manipulation. That's the best we can do.

If that's not good enough, if the results are still inconclusive, well, then there's nothing we can do about it.
 
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