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Crowdsourcing damage data for Creatures subforum

Oleg

Oleg

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Oleg Oleg McMullery
This first post contains background information on what we’re doing. If you just want to know how you can help you can skip to the second post.

As part of our work on the Creatures subforum we need to start adding more data on the maximum damage that mobs do before armour protection is accounted for. At the moment most of the mob tables are populated with the descriptive word seen when scanning the mob (Minimal, Massive etc) and we need to change these to numbers.

There are various ways to estimate these figures but since there are already other sources where estimated figures are available (e.g. Entropedia) we want to try to make sure that the numbers in Creatures are verified.

Following on from the work Doer did on critical hit reductions, I’ve been trying to work out a way to use that information to easily work out maximum damages from single critical hits. Unfortunately this is proving more difficult than I had hoped, mainly because it appears that the L numbers displayed by a mob’s name are rounded or truncated, and that the actual L number used in the game’s calculations are not necessarily integer values. However for low level creatures it is easy to work it out from one hit, so to begin with we will be focusing our attention there.

As a consequence of this work I hope to also work out how the descriptive words translate to value ranges which will make it a little easier to estimate damages from a scan in future. As far as I can see this has never been before but if anyone knows better please let me know as it might save me some effort.

I have already added some data that I’ve confirmed myself, and what we need now is help from the community in collecting more data, and that is the purpose of this thread. The higher your Evader/Dodger, the more mobs you’ll be able to confirm, but data at all levels is helpful so we’d be very happy with any contributions. See the next post for details on what we need from you.
 
The best way you can help is to record the details when you receive an additional damage critical hit from a mob where 3*(L+1) is lower than your Evader profession (or Dodger profession for ranged mobs). So for example if the mob is L6, 3*(L+1) = 3*7 = 21, so your Evader must be 21 or above in order to get a verified figure.

You then need to post:

  • the name (including maturity) and the L number of the mob (in most cases the L number is already available in Creatures so that’s not 100% required);
  • the amount of damage that was reduced;
  • your Evader/Dodger level just to confirm that it’s high enough;
  • if you understand how the calculation works (see my example in the next post) you can also post the damage figure if you want to.

As long as your Evader/Dodger is high enough, that should be enough to work out the exact maximum damage for that mob.

Some things to be aware of:

  • The critical hit must be the additional damage type. Armour penetration crits are not useful here.
  • You need to be certain of the mob and maturity that hit you, so if you have more than one mob attacking you it may not work, though we might still be able to get useful info if we can eliminate some possibilities.
  • The amount of damage received is not important – only the amount reduced.
  • It doesn’t matter what armour you’re wearing, or if you’re not wearing any armour, that won’t affect the result.
  • If you’re in any doubt that you have it correct, please say so.
  • If you want to post a screenshot so that we can check you’re doing it right, please do.
  • Where we’ve already got a damage number in the Creatures table, we don’t need any more data unless there’s a reason to believe something has changed or is incorrect.
  • If you're using any kind of buff that gives a further reduction to critical hits (e.g. Athenic rings or panda pets) please make sure this is stated when you post results.

Another way you can help is by doing the same thing, at any Evader level, for either Kingfisher Young, Caperon Young or Aurli Weak. In this case you’ll also need to post your Evader level accurate to 4 decimal points (hold your mouse over the graphic in the Professions window to see this). By focusing on these mobs and collecting more data I hope to work out a way of getting accurate figures for the higher level mobs.
 
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To start us off here are a couple of examples that I’ve recorded, with the calculations explained.

On a Mermoth Provider I received an additional damage crit which was reduced by 7.8 points. Mermoth Provider is L10 and my Evader was over 59 which is much higher than the 33 required to get an accurate figure here.

7.8 / 0.15 = 52, so 52 is the maximum damage that a Mermoth Provider can do.

On a Drone Generation 4 I received an additional damage crit which was reduced by 8.0 points. Drone Gen 4 is L12 and in this case we’re looking at Dodger, which for me was 54 which is much higher than the 37 required to get an accurate figure.

8.0 / 0.15 = 53.333 which I can round to 53 and can confirm that this is the maximum damage that a Drone Gen 4 can do.
 
I wondered what the reduction value was supposed to represent!
 
Thanks Oleg for getting the ball rolling and proposing this clever way of getting the max damage data.

I've been saving screenshots for a few weeks. I'll update the individual threads with these but i'm posting them here first:

My Evader 42.3, so any mob under L14 will work (Dodger = 32, so for Dodge mobs under L11 will work).

L8 Bristlehog Old
Additional damage crit reduced by 5.3/0.15 ==> Max damage = 35.3 (35)

L7 Hiryuu Young
Additional damage crit reduced by 5.4/0.15 ==> Max damage = 36


L4 Foul Young
Additional damage crit reduced by 2.4/0.15 ==> Max damage = 16

L4 Combibo Old
Additional damage crit reduced by 3.1/0.15 ==> Max damage = 20.6666 (Is this truncated then or rounded up?)

L5 Combibo Provider
Additional damage crit reduced by 3.3/0.15 ==> Max damage = 22

L6 Cornundacauda ??? (didn't fit on bar in screenshot, will doublecheck)
Additional damage crit reduced by 4.4/0.15 ==> Max damage = 29.333 (29)
 
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Doer said:
L4 Combibo Old
Additional damage crit reduced by 3.1/0.15 ==> Max damage = 20.6666 (Is this truncated then or rounded up?)
Click to expand...

Looks a bit odd, but must be rounded up in this case.

21 * 0.15 = 3.15
22 * 0.15 = 3.3
20 * 0.15 = 3.0

So only 21 gives a result that could be converted to 3.1. I say it looks odd because the other examples I've seen have rounded up when displaying the reduction, so I would have expected the reduction to display as 3.2 rather than 3.1. Curious but not important, the result is the same either way. Unless you're not confident you have the numbers right for any reason, in which case we could leave this one for now until we get another reading.

Doer said:
L6 Cornundacauda ??? (didn't fit on bar in screenshot, will doublecheck)
Additional damage crit reduced by 4.4/0.15 ==> Max damage = 29.333 (29)
Click to expand...

L6 is Provider (I assume you're not questioning that it's a Cornundacauda).
 
Oleg said:
Looks a bit odd, but must be rounded up in this case.

21 * 0.15 = 3.15
22 * 0.15 = 3.3
20 * 0.15 = 3.0

So only 21 gives a result that could be converted to 3.1. I say it looks odd because the other examples I've seen have rounded up when displaying the reduction, so I would have expected the reduction to display as 3.2 rather than 3.1. Curious but not important, the result is the same either way. Unless you're not confident you have the numbers right for any reason, in which case we could leave this one for now until we get another reading.



L6 is Provider (I assume you're not questioning that it's a Cornundacauda).
Click to expand...

Straight from screenshots showing the mob and its healthbar so those are both confirmed. Thanks.
 
Doer said:
My Evader 42.3, so any mob under L14 will work (Dodger = 32, so for Dodge mobs under L11 will work).
Click to expand...

Just a note on this - we know that 3 times the L number will max out the reduction, but we don't know how the non-integer L numbers work, which is why I said (L+1)*3.

For example if we have a Dodge mob at L10, it's possible that the real L number could be 10.99, in which case your 32 Dodger would be too low to max the reduction.

It's most likely that you would max out L10 Dodge mobs of course, and even if you didn't you'd probably be near enough to work out the correct answer, but we should be cautious in such cases.
 
I would be interested to know who is intending to collect and submit data to this but has not yet done so, just in order to get an idea of the level of engagement, so if you're such a person please say so :)
 
Not getting as much attention as I had hoped.
 
Read it through 3 times, dont understand it.

Rethink your strategy, choose a common familar mob, put it layman's (not mathematician's or statician's) terms, and make it fun

Just my opinion, which I can fully understand isn't wanted, but maybe needed.
 
Oleg said:
Not getting as much attention as I had hoped.
Click to expand...

I'm keeping an eye on this but haven't obtained any useful data this week. (I don't hunt a lot and the only time my defensive cost exceeded 1% this week was that silly aetherex daily :) i.e. I don't get hit much at all)
 
From Sneaky Heiko Rat:
L3 Snablesnot-Female Old
2.6 reduction
lvl 17.something evader (maxed)

2.6/0.15= 17.333...

16*0.15=2.400
17*0.15=2.650
18*0.15=2.700

This corroborates data on entropedia (17 damage).
 
Mega said:
Read it through 3 times, dont understand it.
Click to expand...

I don't know how I can spell it out more clearly than it is in post 2 plus my examples. The collection is straightforward, the calculation less so but people don't need to do that part.

Is there a particular part that you don't understand?

Haruto Rat said:
From Sneaky Heiko Rat:
L3 Snablesnot-Female Old
2.6 reduction
lvl 17.something evader (maxed)

2.6/0.15= 17.333...

16*0.15=2.400
17*0.15=2.650
18*0.15=2.700

This corroborates data on entropedia (17 damage).
Click to expand...

Great, this is the sort of thing we need, thanks. Other people please note that it's only the first 3 lines here that we need - you can post the rest of the calculation if you want to like Haruto has done here, but you don't have to.
 
I will participate. Just wish caperons would be useful data in my case. Unfortunately they are not, my evade is just 43 and caperon young is L28.
also, can you give an exact example of how dmg message will look?
Let me know if theres a specific mod you're interested in that fit my evade/dodge and I'll do that one.Preferably robot.
dodge = 35

nero

What abot the rare case when you get evade from robots?
 
pesa said:
I will participate. Just wish caperons would be useful data in my case. Unfortunately they are not, my evade is just 43 and caperon young is L28.
also, can you give an exact example of how dmg message will look?
Let me know if theres a specific mod you're interested in that fit my evade/dodge and I'll do that one.Preferably robot.
dodge = 35

nero

What abot the rare case when you get evade from robots?
Click to expand...

The exact text is, for example:

Reduced 8.6 points of critical damage
Critical hit - additional damage! You take 172.0 points of damage.

In this case the number we need to know is 8.6.

For you any Evade mob that's L13 or less, or Dodge mob that's L11 or less will definitely give good data. That doesn't give you many robot options but Drone Gen 1 & 2 would be OK and don't have a figure yet (I already input numbers some of the higher level drones). Attackers would work too.

Robots giving Evade isn't going to be a problem as long as both your Dodger and Evader are high enough, but that's a good point and something we need to watch out for on mobs that have different attack types (Mind Reaver is another example).
 
More from Heiko:
L28 Furor Adept
1.7 reduction
evader lvl 17.8868 (not maxed)

* evader lvl checked after the hunt, ~15 mobs after the last of two crits
 
I can get a crit, too :)

L5 Prancer Provider
3.8 reduction
lvl 20.0398 evader (maxed)

3.8/0.15=25.333...

24*0.15=3.6000
25*0.15=3.7500
26*0.15=3.9000

Again, entropedia (25 dmg) is confirmed.
 
me: evader 43, Dodger 35

L11 atrax old:
Reduced 7.5 points of critical damage


L7 molisk young
Reduced 4.7 points of critical damage

L12 combibo stalker
Reduced 7.4 points of critical damage


L11 nexnesis young
Reduced 6.8 points of critical damage

L8 drone gen1
Reduced 5.0 points of critical damage

L5 faucervix young
Reduced 3.3 points of critical damage

L8 faucervix dominant
Reduced 6.5 points of critical damage

L12 molisk scout
Reduced 6.9 points of critical damage
 
a few more

L3 berycled young
Reduced 2.5 points of critical damage



L? tripudion old
Reduced 3.9 points of critical damage


Now, what about these: ?
globster young 46 3*(46+1) = 141. Does even dan qualify?
osse young 49
dasp young 63
 
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[System]: Reduced 9.3 points of critical damage
[System]: You were killed by the feral Caperon Mature.
[System]: Critical hit - additional damage! You take 191.2 points of damage.

49 evader L31 mob
 
Thanks all for the data, I'll go through everything tomorrow when I have time.

The data from the larger mobs is most useful if I have numbers from multiple people at different profession levels, which is why I specified two mobs (Aurli Weak and Kingfisher Young) that I already have some good data on. Since Caperon is a popular mob atm I'm going to expand that to include Caperon Young too.

So please keep posting numbers from Caperon Young, but if doing this you need to give me your Evader level to 4 decimal places. The rounded level is not enough.
 
49.3029 evader
 
Oleg said:
...That doesn't give you many robot options but Drone Gen 1 & 2 would be OK and don't have a figure yet (I already input numbers some of the higher level drones)...
Click to expand...

Quick question: any particular reason why data from entropedia is not used? From what I've seen so far, the tests in this thread are the same as the values found there.

I may do some low level mob hunting and I'd like to help if I can, but I was just wondering about the above.
 
jjmatrix said:
Quick question: any particular reason why data from entropedia is not used? From what I've seen so far, the tests in this thread are the same as the values found there.
Click to expand...

I can't speak for Oleg but myself I'm cautious about old entropedia data because of nerrrfs. Over the last two years (for example) daikiba have gained HP, berycled have lost HP (but gained quite some HA), so I'd rather not assume all damage values are still the same.
 
jjmatrix said:
Quick question: any particular reason why data from entropedia is not used? From what I've seen so far, the tests in this thread are the same as the values found there.

I may do some low level mob hunting and I'd like to help if I can, but I was just wondering about the above.
Click to expand...

Entropedia data is already in Entropedia. There's no point in blindly copying information from one source to another. If it's correct we'll use it, but the point is to check that it is correct before including it in Creatures. So far some of the data we have sourced is the same as the data from Entropedia, but much of it is not. For example the data we've got for Berycled is quite different from that in Entropedia.

If you can help with providing some more numbers that'd be great :)
 
L8 Drone Gen 1: reduced 4.9

4.8/.15 = 32
4.9/.15 = 32.66
5.0/.15 = 33.33

Seems it's 33 unless non-integer values are possible.
 
Not hunting much at current with a new job on the way and a house move to boot. but just wanted to add my voice of support to this Oleg. Its player led projects like this that are what make the entropia player base so awesome, without them things like Wiki that we take for granted would simply not exist.

I only wish this thread got the interest it deserves, as no doubt a huge number of the player base have used player contributed stats for weapon compare , dam/pec and a million other things . but Im sure the number that are willing to contribute to those are scarily poor.

hope you get fed with some more quality data soon !

keep up the good work guys !:yay:
 
pesa said:
L? tripudion old
Reduced 3.9 points of critical damage
Click to expand...

Are you sure about this one? That would give a damage of 26, which according to the data I've got so far would be described as Small in the scan info, whereas the actual scan of Tripudion Old says Limited. Could it have been a Young rather than an Old? Entropedia has 26 for Young so this seems feasible.

pesa said:
Now, what about these: ?
globster young 46 3*(46+1) = 141. Does even dan qualify?
osse young 49
dasp young 63
Click to expand...

The 3x method won't work for the higher level mobs, which is why I'm trying to develop an alternative way of calculating these using the same principle. It would be great to have someone with 80+ Evader contributing some data here though, so that we can get some numbers from mobs at L20 and beyond.
 
Oleg said:
Are you sure about this one? That would give a damage of 26, which according to the data I've got so far would be described as Small in the scan info, whereas the actual scan of Tripudion Old says Limited. Could it have been a Young rather than an Old? Entropedia has 26 for Young so this seems feasible.



The 3x method won't work for the higher level mobs, which is why I'm trying to develop an alternative way of calculating these using the same principle. It would be great to have someone with 80+ Evader contributing some data here though, so that we can get some numbers from mobs at L20 and beyond.
Click to expand...

you are correct oleg, confusion arose from having data from 2 maturities where one turned out to be armor pierc.
sorry

nero
 
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