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Question: claim after nrf in same spot?

Doer said:
If you mean the earlier comment, he's not referring to that. There was a VU (maybe one of the first for Monria IIRC) where people could reliably know when they'd get a hit and were exploiting it with L13 amps. I don't remember the details, but it definitely was reliable and was hugely exploited while it lasted.
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That happened in November 2013; but IIRC it was something specific to Monria. I also vaguely remember something similar happening on RT when Motorhead Stadium was moved to Hell for a short time (no, seriously :)); some sort of conflict between indoor and outdoor mining configurations, I dunno.
 
Doer said:
If you mean the earlier comment, he's not referring to that. There was a VU (maybe one of the first for Monria IIRC) where people could reliably know when they'd get a hit and were exploiting it with L13 amps. I don't remember the details, but it definitely was reliable and was hugely exploited while it lasted.

I agree that amping for a cluster in the conventional sense hasn't made a lot of sense to me.
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Yep, that was what i was referring to.

Rgds

Ace
 
Doer said:
If you mean the earlier comment, he's not referring to that. There was a VU (maybe one of the first for Monria IIRC) where people could reliably know when they'd get a hit and were exploiting it with L13 amps. I don't remember the details, but it definitely was reliable and was hugely exploited while it lasted.

I agree that amping for a cluster in the conventional sense hasn't made a lot of sense to me.
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Ace Flyster said:
Yep, that was what i was referring to.
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Got it now.

Hmm. After that Monria incident in November 2013, there was another incident on RT in December 2013. Not sure how similar those were but at least at the first glance both seem more like area configuration issues (the announcement on RT says so in plain text).
 
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My guess would be user error. There were many studies on this in the forums over many years and the conclusion is the same, even people who did a bunch of drops standing still hours apart.
 
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Superhal said:
My guess would be user error. There were many studies on this in the forums over many years and the conclusion is the same, even people who did a bunch of drops standing still hours apart.
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Its not - you can do the test youself ;).

I did further testing and you can get nrf and then claim without moving with same finder. It happens acutally quite often.

Mining sysem has changed few times since new tests have been done.

Falagor
:bandit:
 
Falagor said:
Its not - you can do the test youself ;).

I did further testing and you can get nrf and then claim without moving with same finder. It happens acutally quite often.

Mining sysem has changed few times since new tests have been done.

Falagor
:bandit:
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My other guess would be that regardless of whether it's true or not, the mechanics are such that you will take a loss trying it. For example, if you are mining in an area with a 33% hit rate, doing a 2nd drop after a nrf will result in a lower than 33% hit rate, making it unprofitable. The math says that if you do do a 2nd drop after a nrf, you must have a 66% hit rate on the 2nd drop to make up for the nrf to maintain the 33%:

100 drops in 50 places.
50 nerfs followed by 50 2nd drops.
33 hits are required for 33% hit rate, 33 out of the 50 second drops have to hit.
 
But going back to my original point about user error, what you see on your screen is not the same as what the server sees. You think you stopped, server thinks you took an extra step. You think you dropped a probe half a second ago, server thinks you dropped it .25 seconds ago.
 
Superhal said:
But going back to my original point about user error, what you see on your screen is not the same as what the server sees. You think you stopped, server thinks you took an extra step. You think you dropped a probe half a second ago, server thinks you dropped it .25 seconds ago.
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I understand what you mean - but since like i said it IS repetable and quite often and i am quite sure in the past it was not - that is why i started the thread. So even if the differeces in server<->client happen then it is happening like every 15-20 of those events repeated. Also i am not the only one who experienced this as you can read this in this thread.

Also - discussion is not about if its profitable or not - but if there was a change to mining or what else is going on. Since i am sure in the past it was not possible to find a claim after geting nrf standing in same spot. And as you can read - there were changes in mining system and its possible right now.

Falagor
:bandit:
 
I think it is a more fair system.

Previous system of never geting a claim after a nrf would mean that

if an (unknown or not) miner had been probing that area before you then without this new system it would be impossible to get claims and that wasn't fair in my opinion.
To have large parts of the server void of resourses. Which would result in huge strikes of nrf for those who weren't informed.
 
I got one last night actually. I use two finders, one hit, I double bombed with 2nd finder, nrf. Then I accidentally hit the 2nd finder and got a find.

But i know already that double bombing (after a hit) is less than average hit rate, so I don't usually do it.
 
MG Mighty said:
I think it is a more fair system.

Previous system of never geting a claim after a nrf would mean that

if an (unknown or not) miner had been probing that area before you then without this new system it would be impossible to get claims and that wasn't fair in my opinion.
To have large parts of the server void of resourses. Which would result in huge strikes of nrf for those who weren't informed.
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A "random" system is more fair to the new player yes. Threads like this are just as helpful to the participants coming back to try their hands at the game again.

The only factors that miner's can control when mining are their tools, x coord, y coord and time. Both X and Y are now removed as they have no impact any longer. That leaves time..
 
R4tt3xx said:
A "random" system is more fair to the new player yes. Threads like this are just as helpful to the participants coming back to try their hands at the game again.

The only factors that miner's can control when mining are their tools, x coord, y coord and time. Both X and Y are now removed as they have no impact any longer. That leaves time..
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There is no 'random' system. See on tree harvesting and you'll understand.
But, in addition:
Each miner can control X, Y and Z coords (depth). X and Y - your map position.
Depth control gives you possibility to select resources.
There is also possibility to find 2 or 3 claims on the different (higher or lower) depth after NRF.
 
Gewitter said:
There is no 'random' system. See on tree harvesting and you'll understand.
But, in addition:
Each miner can control X, Y and Z coords (depth). X and Y - your map position.
Depth control gives you possibility to select resources.
There is also possibility to find 2 or 3 claims on the different (higher or lower) depth after NRF.
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I do not understand the phrase "on tree harvesting"

Certain areas give you access to certain resource types yes, that I agree with. The reason that I say that X and Y no longer makes a difference is that after getting a NRF you can move say X+1 and hit a deposit, this was not possible in the older iteration of the game. I am just trying to adjust to the "new mining system" from the "old mining system" in which the resources were stored relatively in the ground..
 
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R4tt3xx said:
I do not understand the phrase "on tree harvesting"
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Have you seen how regenerate trees?
In 2 weeks (hardcore money making lol) I have seen enough good when, instead of cutted tree, another tree appears nearby. And after second may appear another and so on.
Server regenerates claims in same way, and claim next to nrf - only fresh 'tree' in mining
 
Gewitter said:
Have you seen how regenerate trees?
In 2 weeks (hardcore money making lol) I have seen enough good when, instead of cutted tree, another tree appears nearby. And after second may appear another and so on.
Server regenerates claims in same way, and claim next to nrf - only fresh 'tree' in mining
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Huh ?? Sorry I do not understand, do you have a url or picture that demonstrates what you are trying to explain ?
 
R4tt3xx said:
Huh ?? Sorry I do not understand, do you have a url or picture that demonstrates what you are trying to explain ?
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Sorry, no video with trees. But here you can see as it happens in mining:

This is on first page of this thread.

I have no purpose to prove you something. Who knows - they can use, but if you do not want (or do not understand) - it's your right (or ignorance).
 
Gewitter said:
'Exactly' is not the same. It is possible to find more resources close to first, second and third claim and after NRF too (This is a reason because I never use LBML)... But as I think, your coordinates are important, they must change (a little) after each drop. In mining important only server regeneration speed, not finder range. Found it? Uninstall your LBML!

As example - image below. There was 11 or 12 claims in 150x150 meters area (of course after NRF too). This image is not alone, I have more.

mPcxkudF-vg.jpg


Added: At indoor mining areas (FOMA and other) is possible to find up to 15-16 claims in 100x100 meters area in 10-15 min timeframe, after a couple NRF of course - there is incredible regeneration speed. This can be achieved by running in circles around one point.

I hope I did not break all your ideas about mining in EU ;)
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Interesting OK

We have 2 inputs here that matter: x and y. If x and y remains the same t does nothing, you get no positive result, ie NRF. If x or y or both change both, in this example you ran around, this increases the chances of getting a positive result.. Very interesting....

Would you be able to drop, move, drop, move back to 1st drop coord, drop again and get a positive result ? ie does the server / tool only remember the last set of coords that failed to yield a positive result ?
 
Gewitter said:
Sorry, no video with trees. But here you can see as it happens in mining:

This is on first page of this thread.

I have no purpose to prove you something. Who knows - they can use, but if you do not want (or do not understand) - it's your right (or ignorance).
Click to expand...

OK gotcha ...
 
Just tested it..

This is a bloody bleeping joke. There is absolutely NO strategy to mining any more, its just run and gun, or run in circles and gun.... Bloody pathetic if you ask me...

Mindark please fix the complete f-up that is mining ...
 
R4tt3xx said:
Just tested it..

This is a bloody bleeping joke. There is absolutely NO strategy to mining any more, its just run and gun, or run in circles and gun.... Bloody pathetic if you ask me...

Mindark please fix the complete f-up that is mining ...
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Your right to consider this as you see it
 
Falagor said:
Hello,

today i accidently made another drop after first getting nrf and to my suprise i got claim. It was same finder and exactly same spot.
I thought that mayby i moved a bit or mayby i was extremly lucky to resource spawn at the very moment so i started experimenting.
And it seems that it is possible to have this situation quite often so it can't be resoruce respawning between drops (unless the respawn rate is like 1-2minutes which i belive is not).

So can anyone explain why you can make o+e drop and get both types nrf and then do another drop in same spot and same finder and get claim?

I thought that finder "scouts" whole possible range and possible depth on that finder and when it gets nrf that means at the moment there are no resources to find in that range and depth?

Aperently it is not - so i did 100 drops in enmatter (rookie finder) and all were nrf... so its not that resources have short respawn rate... so what is it?

I got info that finder sometimes may miss claim on first drop even if its there to be found...

Can someone explain this a little more to me?

Falagor
:bandit:
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You only have a chance to find a resource on a location. If there is something to be found there you have a chance to find it, if you find it you can find x amount of it, you may not get it all.

Take a look at the crafting bar your 100% skilled, 100 Quality Rating but you do not always near success or success you still fail. So basically you hit that fail mining.

You can apply lessons there to any other profession in the game almost the exact same. MA are not that smart to have created uber complicated algorithms, they can't fix the simplest shit, why would they try to make something complicated when they can rinse repeat and rename.
 
Gewitter said:
'Exactly' is not the same. It is possible to find more resources close to first, second and third claim and after NRF too (This is a reason because I never use LBML)... But as I think, your coordinates are important, they must change (a little) after each drop. In mining important only server regeneration speed, not finder range. Found it? Uninstall your LBML!

As example - image below. There was 11 or 12 claims in 150x150 meters area (of course after NRF too). This image is not alone, I have more.

mPcxkudF-vg.jpg


Added: At indoor mining areas (FOMA and other) is possible to find up to 15-16 claims in 100x100 meters area in 10-15 min timeframe, after a couple NRF of course - there is incredible regeneration speed. This can be achieved by running in circles around one point.

I hope I did not break all your ideas about mining in EU ;)
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I disagree to some extent, LBML gives you a map of whats where in a more precise mapping method and at what depths for when you come back at a later date. It is not meant as an exact pin point spot to mine again and expect the same results. LBML is a great tool if you use it correctly.
 
K-Max said:
I disagree to some extent, LBML gives you a map of whats where in a more precise mapping method and at what depths for when you come back at a later date. It is not meant as an exact pin point spot to mine again and expect the same results. LBML is a great tool if you use it correctly.
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Of course, if for you LBML is comfortable, you can use it. I have my own map with my own % of ores/enmatters (which are different from LBML), therefore for me it is unnecessarily.
 
Gewitter said:
There is no 'random' system. See on tree harvesting and you'll understand.
But, in addition:
Each miner can control X, Y and Z coords (depth). X and Y - your map position.
Depth control gives you possibility to select resources.
There is also possibility to find 2 or 3 claims on the different (higher or lower) depth after NRF.
Click to expand...

Tree harvesting is different from mining no? The resource claim is generated when you click, it is not "in the ground" - at least that is what everyone seems to think. Tree harvesting - I am not quite sure but this seems to work as the old mining system did where all the players can see and harvest the same nodes. Whereas if my claim expires while mining, another player cannot find it.


also...
Gewitter said:
'Exactly' is not the same. It is possible to find more resources close to first, second and third claim and after NRF too (This is a reason because I never use LBML)... But as I think, your coordinates are important, they must change (a little) after each drop. In mining important only server regeneration speed, not finder range. Found it? Uninstall your LBML!

As example - image below. There was 11 or 12 claims in 150x150 meters area (of course after NRF too). This image is not alone, I have more.

mPcxkudF-vg.jpg


Added: At indoor mining areas (FOMA and other) is possible to find up to 15-16 claims in 100x100 meters area in 10-15 min timeframe, after a couple NRF of course - there is incredible regeneration speed. This can be achieved by running in circles around one point.

I hope I did not break all your ideas about mining in EU ;)
Click to expand...

Is this how we are supposed to do mining now? Planetside regeneration still takes 30 min - an hour doesn't it? Do you really space out your drops so little and get such results now? If so that's incredible.
 
ZPF said:
The resource claim is generated when you click, it is not "in the ground" - at least that is what everyone seems to think.
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This!!!
Are you 100% sure? Can you prove it? No.
Therefore, it is only theory.

Addition: I also want to add, for those who just want to do these experiments - they can cost you too much money, because in order to get claims in this crazy amount, need special conditions, you can not just go mining and do it, this possibility need to feel.
 
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Just putting this thought out there...

What if the resource location (ie where to find it, where it spawns, whatever .. prossibly also the resource type?) is in the ground...

but the loot (ie value, as well as any sooto) is generated when you click.

I've always thought of mining as a bit like hunting invisible mobs with an area-of-effect tool ;)
 
Serica said:
Just putting this thought out there...

What if the resource location (ie where to find it, where it spawns, whatever .. prossibly also the resource type?) is in the ground...

but the loot (ie value, as well as any sooto) is generated when you click.

I've always thought of mining as a bit like hunting invisible mobs with an area-of-effect tool ;)
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This crossed my mind. The issue here is that we can never really know. It's possible that the resource is in the ground. But I'm willing to bet if you let a claim expire, another player will not find it in the same spot nor will he find a different iteration of that claim in the same spot. This does not mean the claim was not in the ground. It just means that it can only be found once. So in conclusion it doesn't really seem possible for us to know for sure. It's all just theory unless we get an official statement from MA.
 
ZPF said:
This crossed my mind. The issue here is that we can never really know. It's possible that the resource is in the ground. But I'm willing to bet if you let a claim expire, another player will not find it in the same spot nor will he find a different iteration of that claim in the same spot. This does not mean the claim was not in the ground. It just means that it can only be found once. So in conclusion it doesn't really seem possible for us to know for sure. It's all just theory unless we get an official statement from MA.
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If multiple participants cannot see the same resource in their UI at the same time, then there is no reason to "generate" mining resources in the ground. Click drop probe, roll the dice and see what pops up.

One can drop probes, move a few meters, drop probes and get hits. Just don't drop on the same spot. I do have a screen shot similar to Gewitters.

Having a resource gathering system go dry that is not based on your actions, is in my opinion very unfair.

Lets look at the mechanics. You have to use a certain amount of ped in order to get the chance to obtain a different type of resource. The fact remains that you are using your peds to generate those resources, weather their value goes into a loot pool or not.

A random table would be the easiest way to do this with the resource generation starting with your tool.

Back in the days of eons past, there was a miner that used a timer to "predict" when (we are talking to the second here) to press his mouse button in order to obtain a claim!! (https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?146422-Final-Theory-Thread)

The above is subject to change. Mindark as always can change the system on a whim.
 
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Interesting discussion, I didn't tested this fully but I could agree.

Can any1 confirm tat this mining strategy (dropping around a point in 100-150M radius) has no impact on return (hit rate / tt return lets say on the 90% tt return)?

thx,
mczimi
 
Serica said:
Just putting this thought out there...

What if the resource location (ie where to find it, where it spawns, whatever .. prossibly also the resource type?) is in the ground...

but the loot (ie value, as well as any sooto) is generated when you click.

I've always thought of mining as a bit like hunting invisible mobs with an area-of-effect tool ;)
Click to expand...

We find far too many claims right next to us when dropping bombs, for this to be true.

Otherwise they would be evenly(ish) distributed.

I havent counted what percentage you get next to you....and i couldnt care less.

Rgds

Ace
 
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