Question: claim after nrf in same spot?

Hello,

today i accidently made another drop after first getting nrf and to my suprise i got claim. It was same finder and exactly same spot.
I thought that mayby i moved a bit or mayby i was extremly lucky to resource spawn at the very moment so i started experimenting.
And it seems that it is possible to have this situation quite often so it can't be resoruce respawning between drops (unless the respawn rate is like 1-2minutes which i belive is not).

So can anyone explain why you can make o+e drop and get both types nrf and then do another drop in same spot and same finder and get claim?

I thought that finder "scouts" whole possible range and possible depth on that finder and when it gets nrf that means at the moment there are no resources to find in that range and depth?

Aperently it is not - so i did 100 drops in enmatter (rookie finder) and all were nrf... so its not that resources have short respawn rate... so what is it?

I got info that finder sometimes may miss claim on first drop even if its there to be found...

Can someone explain this a little more to me?

Falagor

To a point, in my experience, your position is pretty much unimportant. As long as you're not on the exact (down to the metre) coordinate, your chances are your chances.

I like to see it like a hunting weapon, where the depth indicated on your finder is like your "maximum" damage on the gun, and that much like a gun, you can sometimes hit for less, and sometimes even critical for more... This is all theoretical but to me it's what makes more sense, because I too have had that happen to me at some times when my trigger finger is itchy hehe.

Let's face it, at the end of the day, it's a chance based system and that is it We can fantasize how much we want on the mechanics of it all, but to me, it feels as random as it ever has.

Falagor said:

I thought that finder "scouts" whole possible range and possible depth on that finder and when it gets nrf that means at the moment there are no resources to find in that range and depth?

Click to expand...

Not really, you still get a "dice roll". NRF may mean either that there are no resources, or you got a bad roll. It's hard to tell one from the other. That's why overlapping is still not a good idea. Some people believe NRF+skill gain means bad roll, but that's not decisively proven, and probably impossible to prove.

If finders always found resources, you could occasionally get very high hit rates, either by superior technique or by sheer luck; in fact, getting above 40% on 200 drops is sort of impossible.

Haruto Rat said:

Not really, you still get a "dice roll". NRF may mean either that there are no resources, or you got a bad roll. It's hard to tell one from the other. That's why overlapping is still not a good idea. Some people believe NRF+skill gain means bad roll, but that's not decisively proven, and probably impossible to prove.

If finders always found resources, you could occasionally get very high hit rates, either by superior technique or by sheer luck; in fact, getting above 40% on 200 drops is sort of impossible.

Click to expand...

Ok this seems logical and explains this occurance.

This is interesting to me and i might do some tests with rookie finder since obviously costs are minimal with it .

@edit:
do you think that even when maxed on tool - increasing your skills further may decrease this hidden "miss chance"?

Falagor

There is also the possibility that the ore spawned between the first and the second drops.

Neil Stockton said:

There is also the possibility that the ore spawned between the first and the second drops.

Click to expand...

I thought about it so i tried repeating it and i did few times in short time. So unless the respawn is VERY short is is unlikely to happen.

Falagor

'Exactly' is not the same. It is possible to find more resources close to first, second and third claim and after NRF too (This is a reason because I never use LBML)... But as I think, your coordinates are important, they must change (a little) after each drop. In mining important only server regeneration speed, not finder range. Found it? Uninstall your LBML!

As example - image below. There was 11 or 12 claims in 150x150 meters area (of course after NRF too). This image is not alone, I have more.



Added: At indoor mining areas (FOMA and other) is possible to find up to 15-16 claims in 100x100 meters area in 10-15 min timeframe, after a couple NRF of course - there is incredible regeneration speed. This can be achieved by running in circles around one point.

I hope I did not break all your ideas about mining in EU

Problem is Gewitter it was EXACTLY same spot: first drop o+e both nrf then snd drop claim.

I used tool - waited for nrf not moving a inch and then used it again.

Falagor

There seems to be as many ideas or what ever you call this when this happens. I think its just pure randomness to a degree in terms of algorithms. BTW, did you have your system chat log up? I like to have mine up when I mine to see if any skill gains occur. Some say its like when you hunt and fire your gun and you pew, pew, pew, but then there is a miss and then back to pew, pew, pew, via the system chat log; lol. (u stand in same spot & coordinates )

@Andy, nice cluster der in your pic. Yes, i du believe in patterns such as clusters, veins, curved veins, branches, bowlz, and etc. in mining hit patterns .

Cheerz,
Vi

Falagor said:

Problem is Gewitter it was EXACTLY same spot: first drop o+e both nrf then snd drop claim.

Click to expand...

So, it means you can also not move (in several cases). But if you try to find the resources, standing at one place, as a rule, this leads only to the loss of money without any result (also indoor). This means - server (or client) regulary check your moving.



There was at least 14 claims as far I remember (but area is a little bigger)

Claims are no longer in the ground, been like this for a while now.

Which is why you get sooooo many close to you.



Rgds

Ace

Falagor said:

I thought about it so i tried repeating it and i did few times in short time. So unless the respawn is VERY short is is unlikely to happen.

Falagor

Click to expand...

Ores respawn randomly, not too quickly. So there's only a small chance that one will spawn between the first drop and the second. It's a small chance, but similarly, it's also very rare for you to drop twice and find a claim only on the second drop.

I've been postulating doing a no movement drop test, but the loss of PED risk has always scared me off.

AkiranBlade said:

I've been postulating doing a no movement drop test, but the loss of PED risk has always scared me off.

Click to expand...

I do not recommend to do this test. It works (loss of PED's)!

Neil Stockton said:

There is also the possibility that the ore spawned between the first and the second drops.

Click to expand...

This was my initial thought...

Ace Flyster said:

Claims are no longer in the ground, been like this for a while now.

Which is why you get sooooo many close to you.



Rgds

Ace

Click to expand...

This makes no sense, if they are not in the ground where are they in the sky?

Gewitter said:

I do not recommend to do this test. It works (loss of PED's)!

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I've been losing about a third of the TT put into probes each run lately, will it be worse than that?

AkiranBlade said:

I've been losing about a third of the TT put into probes each run lately, will it be worse than that?

Click to expand...

It will. You can get 1-2-3 claims (after 1-3 drops), then you do not get any from the following 100. If you have enough money - you can try (also with Terra 10 or Level 13!)

AkiranBlade said:

I've been postulating doing a no movement drop test, but the loss of PED risk has always scared me off.

Click to expand...

Ace did something like this a few years ago: https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?178841-Testing-ores-refresh-rate-in-mining

GeorgeSkywalker said:

This makes no sense, if they are not in the ground where are they in the sky?

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Previously, they were already in the ground, two people could find the same claim, (in the old system).

Now a mining find is generated on bomb drop. (not already in the ground). Just like loot is generated on looting a mob.

Rgds

Ace

Ace Flyster said:

Previously, they were already in the ground, two people could find the same claim

Click to expand...

I wonder where you found this information, because it is impossible to check without direct MA info.

The answer is simple: You were standing on the axle of the magical rotating infinity sign that determines hits.





Could it be that after all the discussions of patterns of deposits, it's now just a "dynamic" number generator like hunting loot?

I do think i've read experienced miners mention they get lower return if overlapping, but i don't remember who and when.

Gewitter said:

I wonder where you found this information, because it is impossible to check without direct MA info.

Click to expand...

You should read up on the history of mining, my young friend.

Doer said:

I do think i've read experienced miners mention they get lower return if overlapping, but i don't remember who and when.

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In 2008, we (me and my friend) made a test, if two miners run together and used OF-105 with very similar skills, overall return was remain the same (with a couple NRF and globals, as always, of course). As far I know, change of mining system was later (together with merge of mining tools). So I'm interested how Ace found info about fixed claims. Maybe he mean about times before 2007, then I can only say: sorry, I don't know something about these times.

Neil Stockton said:

Ores respawn randomly, not too quickly. So there's only a small chance that one will spawn between the first drop and the second. It's a small chance, but similarly, it's also very rare for you to drop twice and find a claim only on the second drop.

Click to expand...

Problem is - this IS happening quite often. I made more drops like that and was getting this occurance fairly often. Anyone can test this easily with Rookie finder with low cost and see with their own eyes .

AkiranBlade said:

I've been postulating doing a no movement drop test, but the loss of PED risk has always scared me off.

Click to expand...

Now with having Rookie finders the cost to do so will be 10x lower .

Ace Flyster said:

Previously, they were already in the ground, two people could find the same claim, (in the old system).

Now a mining find is generated on bomb drop. (not already in the ground). Just like loot is generated on looting a mob.

Rgds

Ace

Click to expand...

As i agree that the mining system has changed i do not agree "fully" with the statemant about hunting. I did the folowing testing:
1) detemining that carabok common looter is 0-4pec (lowest mini is ~11pec if i recall corectly).
2) trying to let them hit me in overprotecting armor and common lotoers raise (0-10pec afer some wasted armor decay)
3) important part: trying to let them hit me AND my friend killing them (while NOT in team) - the common loot was higher for him too (also 0-10pec).

So conclusion is: part of decay armor made by the mob IS REMEMBERED on the mob itself at least in one parameter (i.e. formula can be complicated and generated on looting the mob but it must include armor decay made to all avatars. It still can be no looter but the armor decay factor is remembered for sure).

Doer said:

The answer is simple: You were standing on the axle of the magical rotating infinity sign that determines hits.





Could it be that after all the discussions of patterns of deposits, it's just a "dynamic" number generator like hunting loot?

I do think i've read experienced miners mention they get lower return if overlapping, but i don't remember who and when.

Click to expand...

Its not totally "dynamic" since stanidng in one spot and doroping 100 will not give you any calims - so they are not geneated on the fly.

-----

To sum up:
- so far i think the most valid theory is still the one that finder can "miss" claim even if its there to be found.

When i am back on Cyrene i will do some more tesing about what Gewitter said - he seems to be sure of it yet i think i do not fully understand what he ment even after re-reading it few times .
So after finding claim i will try to bomb around same spot constantly moving like headless chicked with autouse tool on and see what happens.
Also if Gewitter is right i do not agree that LBML is totally useless . It still gives info about what resources can be found in particular areas. On other planets its fairly important since they actually have unusual areas of resources and not whole servers like on Calypso .

Falagor

Gewitter said:

I wonder where you found this information, because it is impossible to check without direct MA info.

Click to expand...

Ace is referring to the old old mining system. (I think it changed in 2005.)

Dusty Trayles posted about that old system back in 2008:

Mr Trayles said:

... It used to be that when you found a claim you had to get close to it for the claim rod would show up. They have since changed it so that the claim rod shows up instantly.

But before that change, you could locate a claim but before moving towards it, turn off your finder. This effectively let the claim go. But you could drop another bomb/probe and find it again. Ok, no big deal so far. But someone else could also find it. In fact, there were instances where two people would find the same claim but only the person who got there first got the claim rod.
...

Click to expand...

and

Mr Trayles said:

...

Before they changed it to insta-claim and you had to move to your claim, you could cancel the it by equiping something else or just unequiping the finder.

You could then drop another probe and find the claim again. Ok, so nothing new from what I have said before. But if you waited a little while and dropped another probe/bomb, you would still find it, but it will have moved! You could do this for awhile and just watch the claim move. It was slow, but it would move over time. So, it was determined that claims move over time just as mobs do. Probably to defeat spiral theories or what not. Who knows why. But they do. Or at least did. Can't tell now since they are instantly claimed.
...

Click to expand...

Falagor said:

@edit:
do you think that even when maxed on tool - increasing your skills further may decrease this hidden "miss chance"?

Click to expand...

If there's any such effect, it's too small to be reliably detected. (I've done quite some mining with rookie finders and F-101.) Besides that, I doubt Auktuma gets better chance of success on basic filters or smilgs gets fewer nolooters on punies.

What is more or less known is that the more overmaxed finder you use, the fewer 'unknown' claims you get.

Thank you Serica for digging that up, yes i was referring to the old old old system. It bugged the hell out of me, getting a claim them someone else getting there first.

As for Gewitters time. If you overlapped, your tt returns and claim rate were reduced. I think Falcoa (name?) did the stats on it somewhere here.

Now, as claims are not in the ground, cant remember when the exact change was, not too long ago as there was a problem with one of the undergrounds. People were finding a claim then wacking on a huge amp, as all the claims were bunched together.

This is no longer the case, I think that was when MA changed it.

So claims are generated on finding them, which is why you find so many right next to where you are bombing.

Not sure how this affects rebombs, but hey ho, makes an interesting discussion.

Rgds

Ace

As for "claims are in the ground" discussion, people mean quite different things when they say that. The "minimum version" of the doctrine, for example, asserts only potential claim coordinates are on the server but not depth, mineral identification or multipliers. Others may believe in multipliers being "in the ground". And some people don't believe in anything they can't touch.

Ace Flyster said:

Now, as claims are not in the ground, cant remember when the exact change was, not too long ago as there was a problem with one of the undergrounds. People were finding a claim then wacking on a huge amp, as all the claims were bunched together.

This is no longer the case, I think that was when MA changed it.

So claims are generated on finding them, which is why you find so many right next to where you are bombing.

Not sure how this affects rebombs, but hey ho, makes an interesting discussion.

Click to expand...

The last significant change happened in ~September 2014, when claims started dropping on your head. (I mean those 0.5 m away that interfere with your camera in 3rd person, sometimes swinging it as if you got a global )

It can also be interpreted as claims still being in the ground, just their density increased.

As for amping up when you find a 'cluster' - it didn't quite work before and doesn't quite work now.

Haruto Rat said:

As for amping up when you find a 'cluster' - it didn't quite work before and doesn't quite work now.

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If you mean the earlier comment, he's not referring to that. There was a VU (maybe one of the first for Monria IIRC) where people could reliably know when they'd get a hit and were exploiting it with L13 amps. I don't remember the details, but it definitely was reliable and was hugely exploited while it lasted.

I agree that amping for a cluster in the conventional sense hasn't made a lot of sense to me.