Question: claim after nrf in same spot?

Ace Flyster said:

We find far too many claims right next to us when dropping bombs, for this to be true.

Otherwise they would be evenly(ish) distributed.

I havent counted what percentage you get next to you....and i couldnt care less.

Rgds

Ace

Click to expand...

Even distribution would just get abused / cracked / broken / discovered / abused waaaaay to easily. Each time I mine, I have such a model in mind even if I know it is wrong.

I am with Gewitter with the theory that it makes no difference, the finds based on size are not pre-laid out on the server. The only thing that is pre-laid out is what type of stuff can be found where and what depth. Finding it is all just a random chance and server regeneration time.

I once stood and dropped 100 drops on Arkadia without moving doing all three types and got over 50 claims using auto tool.

After someone told me to test that it made my prior belief's on mining all fade away and I learned it is just crafting with a finder and probes. Instead of knowing what you craft you can learn what you will get. The rest is all random, amps are just playing with the condition bar.

It also applies to hunting if you learn the mobs, and the attachements.

K-Max said:

amps are just playing with the condition bar.

Click to expand...

I don't liken it to the condition bar - you don't get less hits just because you are amped.

It's more like mining with a "BP" that has higher TT cost (think filters [no amp] vs Expl IV [level 13 amp])

K-Max said:

I am with Gewitter with the theory that it makes no difference, the finds based on size are not pre-laid out on the server. The only thing that is pre-laid out is what type of stuff can be found where and what depth. Finding it is all just a random chance and server regeneration time.

I once stood and dropped 100 drops on Arkadia without moving doing all three types and got over 50 claims using auto tool.

After someone told me to test that it made my prior belief's on mining all fade away and I learned it is just crafting with a finder and probes. Instead of knowing what you craft you can learn what you will get. The rest is all random, amps are just playing with the condition bar.

It also applies to hunting if you learn the mobs, and the attachements.

Click to expand...

That is not what he said. He specifically said he only gets screenshots like that in rare cases, he just posted it to show what is "possible" if you have a good instinct. He never said it was random. He is against the theory that everything is generated when you click - he used tree harvesting as an example. The nodes are already there, but they regenerate fast.

My question is, is there any way to confirm that the exact location of the claims (down to the coordinate) is pre-laid out? Or does it just pop up wherever the heck it wants when you click. There seems to be no way to confirm this.

Ace Flyster said:

We find far too many claims right next to us when dropping bombs, for this to be true.

Otherwise they would be evenly(ish) distributed.

I havent counted what percentage you get next to you....and i couldnt care less.

Rgds

Ace

Click to expand...

I'm got really get why you think it means claims would be evenly distributed
Creatures aren't.
Harvestable trees aren't.

I just think it's a possibility that they use the same underlying algorithm structure, with minor variation to suit the specific activity (eg mining has depth but hunting doesn't - but maybe 'depth' in hunting is just fixed at zero ), for all the professions that generate loot.

From what I've observed, tree spawns are fixed at specific coordinates (although the maturity of the tree spawned appears random, possibly due to some multi-factorial formula).
Creatures spawn within a defined area though - not just on a specific coordinate.

I've mapped every mining find I've had since VU10, in some areas running over the same pattern many times, and these show minerals aren't found on exactly the same coordinates each time - so in this it appears more like creature spawns.

I find this a useful conceptual framework that fits reasonably well with my personal observations.
It's ok if you don't agree though.
I'm not trying to convince you, just sharing.

Serica said:

I'm got really get why you think it means claims would be evenly distributed
Creatures aren't.
Harvestable trees aren't.

I just think it's a possibility that they use the same underlying algorithm structure, with minor variation to suit the specific activity (eg mining has depth but hunting doesn't - but maybe 'depth' in hunting is just fixed at zero ), for all the professions that generate loot.

From what I've observed, tree spawns are fixed at specific coordinates (although the maturity of the tree spawned appears random, possibly due to some multi-factorial formula).
Creatures spawn within a defined area though - not just on a specific coordinate.

I've mapped every mining find I've had since VU10, in some areas running over the same pattern many times, and these show minerals aren't found on exactly the same coordinates each time - so in this it appears more like creature spawns.

I find this a useful conceptual framework that fits reasonably well with my personal observations.
It's ok if you don't agree though.
I'm not trying to convince you, just sharing.

Click to expand...

They use to be evenly distributed, before the problems with Hell? where they were clumped in the ground. People putting on big amps to get the clumped claims.

Then, it appeared, MA changed it to no longer in the ground and we were suddenly finding most claims right next to bomb drop.

Which is evidence enough for me, that they are no longer in the ground. Not proof though, i will give you that.

Rgds

Ace

K-Max, thank you, of course you are right.

After regeneration, next claim (mining node) can be placed on different depth, so with the same finder you cannot find it. Fast regeneration of the next claims on the same depth range will give screenshot like mine.

About programming: No one will invent a new bike if they have the old one. For sure, trees gathering used the same algorithm as for the mining operations.

Added: So, my opinion:
1. There are invisible mining nodes, placed on X,Y and Z coordinates. Regeneration time of all extracted nodes (claims) may be different, depending on area.
2. Multipler would be based on your equipment (finder + amp + M (server value, based on lootpool)). Of course there can be also zero multiplier = NRF
3. Resources must be generated from resource tables for this area.

I could give more information I have, but I'm afraid it will hurt my 'mining business'
I gave you more than enough info I have, but of course, all it only IMO, and can be fake, MA may have they own algoritm

Ace Flyster said:

They use to be evenly distributed, before the problems with Hell? where they were clumped in the ground. People putting on big amps to get the clumped claims.

Then, it appeared, MA changed it to no longer in the ground and we were suddenly finding most claims right next to bomb drop.

Which is evidence enough for me, that they are no longer in the ground. Not proof though, i will give you that.

Rgds

Ace

Click to expand...

While that the mechanics are down to MA, I think the specific distribution pattern of minerals would be a matter for the Planet Partner.
If it was only happening at a particular planet, the 'clumping' may have been due to insufficient dispersion in the spawn parameters they had set up.

I've not had the time for mining for the past few months, so I won't comment on the claims now being right next to the bomb drop - but it seems more likely that MA would 'tweak' the algorithm in some way rather than replace it entirely.
Out of curiosity, did this start around the same time as, or shortly after, the 'summon claim' was limited to one time/claim?

Serica said:

While that the mechanics are down to MA, I think the specific distribution pattern of minerals would be a matter for the Planet Partner.
If it was only happening at a particular planet, the 'clumping' may have been due to insufficient dispersion in the spawn parameters they had set up.

I've not had the time for mining for the past few months, so I won't comment on the claims now being right next to the bomb drop - but it seems more likely that MA would 'tweak' the algorithm in some way rather than replace it entirely.
Out of curiosity, did this start around the same time as, or shortly after, the 'summon claim' was limited to one time/claim?

Click to expand...

The strangest thing is that you can run around in circles from a fixed point and get a ton of claims popping up.

The only time that we had evidence of the resources being spawned by the ground was when we could cancel the claiming process and some one else could find the claim at said location.

Mining right now is as follows, if you are not standing on the same spot, roll a dice, see what comes up

R4tt3xx said:

The strangest thing is that you can run around in circles from a fixed point and get a ton of claims popping up.

The only time that we had evidence of the resources being spawned by the ground was when we could cancel the claiming process and some one else could find the claim at said location.

Mining right now is as follows, if you are not standing on the same spot, roll a dice, see what comes up

Click to expand...

Again, we don't know if this is due to fast regeneration times or the claims being generated when you click.

Either way, this method will not always work and is difficult to confirm through testing. I'm thinking about running some tests with the TT finder but I don't know if this will give me reliable data.

ZPF said:

Again, we don't know if this is due to fast regeneration times or the claims being generated when you click.

Either way, this method will not always work and is difficult to confirm through testing. I'm thinking about running some tests with the TT finder but I don't know if this will give me reliable data.

Click to expand...

There is no way of really knowing except if Mindark states it.

Serica said:

While that the mechanics are down to MA, I think the specific distribution pattern of minerals would be a matter for the Planet Partner.
If it was only happening at a particular planet, the 'clumping' may have been due to insufficient dispersion in the spawn parameters they had set up.

I've not had the time for mining for the past few months, so I won't comment on the claims now being right next to the bomb drop - but it seems more likely that MA would 'tweak' the algorithm in some way rather than replace it entirely.
Out of curiosity, did this start around the same time as, or shortly after, the 'summon claim' was limited to one time/claim?

Click to expand...

I cannot say for sure, if it was around the same time. I don't have recorded dates, unfortunately.

I am also not saying you are wrong, but my gut tells they are no longer in the ground.

Rgds

Ace

I have been thinking a bit on this...

Fact From and 1 point, (I am calling this the origin), there are a maximum of 6 possible points around it.

X5X6X
4X0X1
X3X2X

If probe point 0 and move from point 0 to 1 and drop a probe again can the old point 0, new point 4, have resources in it ?

What I am proposing would be as simple as dropping probes generates resources around the player...

eg drop a probe, value of probe moves to d6, player moves to d6, gets d6 resources, rinse, repeat.

What do you guys think of this as an explanation, any holes ?

I like this thread, therefore ... another image
Place: FOMA
Claims: more than 15, ~200x200 square (8 visible). Multiple circle bombing.
Date: ~ half year ago

Extremely fast regeneration

Gewitter said:

I like this thread, therefore ... another image
Place: FOMA
Claims: more than 15, ~200x200 square (8 visible). Multiple circle bombing.
Date: ~ half year ago

Extremely fast regeneration

Click to expand...

Good, good, now tell me the secret to doing this planetside

I can't even being to wrap my head around how this could work without a random number generator of sorts...

Would I be correct in assuming that certain areas would have higher regeneration rates then others ? If so what creates the effect ?

Any form of normal or uniform distribution no longer exists, same with veins, spirals and any such pattern based system.

Drop the probe, and let the dice roll, for good or bad !!

Gewitter said:

I like this thread, therefore ... another image
Place: FOMA
Claims: more than 15, ~200x200 square (8 visible). Multiple circle bombing.
Date: ~ half year ago

Extremely fast regeneration

Click to expand...

R4tt3xx said:

I can't even being to wrap my head around how this could work without a random number generator of sorts...

Would I be correct in assuming that certain areas would have higher regeneration rates then others ? If so what creates the effect ?

Any form of normal or uniform distribution no longer exists, same with veins, spirals and any such pattern based system.

Drop the probe, and let the dice roll, for good or bad !!

Click to expand...

I imagine it little different than dices, I just want to add that yesterday I found at least 2 claims after NRF at the same spot (10-15 meters difference) during exploration of Calypso regions, not a 5-10+ claims, only second claim in the same area after NRF. Usually I work with one type of resources, there was two, for calculating % of resource distribution. This is why it happened.

Thing that would be fun to check is the average TT return.

Run in a circle = Average return
Mine huge areas = average return

Then it's basicly only about mining on the correct time and not the correct place.

Guarana said:

Thing that would be fun to check is the average TT return.

Run in a circle = Average return
Mine huge areas = average return

Then it's basicly only about mining on the correct time and not the correct place.

Click to expand...

Rules for mining:
Correct time + correct place = profit
Correct time w/o correct place = zero profit
Incorrect time + incorrect place = usually loss
Correct place w/o correct time = between zero profit and loss

In this case, circles of claims = just correct time

I must add that FOMA, HELL and Arkadia Undergound are not correct places, with several little exceptions

I think I can explain this.

Many of you don't agree with my spiral idea, but it fits !!! What used to happen back in the day, we are talking 2007 here, an array generates around the avatar upon a miss, in the past this would not be a problem as depending on when the probe was dropped, the distance to the new claim would change.

HOWEVER !! Here's the kicker. If Mindark is using a log function to vary the base of the time and allow for uniform distribution, the result creates 2 claims, one at the beginning, and one at the end of the array that always exists...

Let me run through how this would go down, drop ore and matter, one hits, other one misses. Your current array remains, thanks to the hit and a new array is generated thanks to the miss. Assuming Mindark is using a log function to hide possible straight veins and aid in uniform distribution, a claim will generate at radius or less than radius away from your avatar.

This is a game breaker..

Sorry for going on another tangent, stop reading if you wish. A double miss would generate two arrays, either the arrays are 180 degrees out of phase with each other, or both arrays contain both resource types.

What do you guys think, have I gone off the deep end yet ?

R4tt3xx said:

I think I can explain this.

Many of you don't agree with my spiral idea, but it fits !!! What used to happen back in the day, we are talking 2007 here, an array generates around the avatar upon a miss, in the past this would not be a problem as depending on when the probe was dropped, the distance to the new claim would change.

HOWEVER !! Here's the kicker. If Mindark is using a log function to vary the base of the time and allow for uniform distribution, the result creates 2 claims, one at the beginning, and one at the end of the array that always exists...

Let me run through how this would go down, drop ore and matter, one hits, other one misses. Your current array remains, thanks to the hit and a new array is generated thanks to the miss. Assuming Mindark is using a log function to hide possible straight veins and aid in uniform distribution, a claim will generate at radius or less than radius away from your avatar.

This is a game breaker..

Sorry for going on another tangent, stop reading if you wish. A double miss would generate two arrays, either the arrays are 180 degrees out of phase with each other, or both arrays contain both resource types.

What do you guys think, have I gone off the deep end yet ?

Click to expand...

They are not in the ground anymore, imao.


Rgds

Ace

Ace Flyster said:

They are not in the ground anymore, imao.


Rgds

Ace

Click to expand...

IMO you are only half correct. I still believe a lot of claims are pre-set. However I also think that roughly 50% of them are randomly generated on click (the ones that appear right next to you are usually these). Again, IMO based on observation and experience, this makes the most sense. Fluctuating regeneration rates can definitely make it "seem" completely random and arbitrary.

I continue to return to areas with solid hit rates and I get solid hit rates again. Bad areas are usually bad, so "random" just doesn't seem to fit the bill.

I think that all this is not important. I am guided by other criteria in mining, such as the resources allocation tables and a few other factors, which I don't want to publish. Some combinations of these factors shows me, what session will be successful. And how are generated claims in this case, it is irrelevant for me. Yes, maybe it is interested, but not important.

Agreed, THEY are generated as the probe drops, more than one.

Ace Flyster said:

They are not in the ground anymore, imao.


Rgds

Ace

Click to expand...

R4tt3xx said:

Agreed, THEY are generated as the probe drops, more than one.

Click to expand...

Oh well. The more people that think this way, the better for me

ZPF said:

IMO you are only half correct. I still believe a lot of claims are pre-set. However I also think that roughly 50% of them are randomly generated on click (the ones that appear right next to you are usually these). Again, IMO based on observation and experience, this makes the most sense. Fluctuating regeneration rates can definitely make it "seem" completely random and arbitrary.

I continue to return to areas with solid hit rates and I get solid hit rates again. Bad areas are usually bad, so "random" just doesn't seem to fit the bill.

Click to expand...

I can see where you're coming from as I neither agree or disagree on this matter as I do not have the definitive answer(s), but only my own in-game personal experiences, ideas, and observations.

Observation:
Let's take a look at hunting for an example, after you kill a mob and loot it; is the mob preset with loot in it or is it 'randomly' generated once you loot it within the given amount of time?

Experience:
I've seen towers on planet-side and on non-planet-side areas left not extracted all the way still; the resources still inside these towers of which that very spot or area may not contain anymore 'resources set in the ground'; is this accurate or not as I do not know? Meaning are or were these towers preset with their resources? If so, then these resources are still trapped in these towers and should of expired by now, but haven't as other miners can still get claims around the area or vicinity of the tower. If not, 'random resource regeneration' explains why not everyone can get towers so easily.

Idea:
The idea is that MA always wants us to keep guessing as they are the only ones who truly know, but we are all free to experience and observe our own ideas on this 'dynamic' subject.

Falagor,

Did this happen in a player owned land area ?

no claims

there is no claims underground like there is no loot in mob. it starting to generate after click... like slots, u put in coin, spin, wait, nerf or jackpot

I would have to disagree with you. It's closer to an overlaying set of grids that exist at 100m intervals from each other. Each grid has twice the recharge time and twice the amount of maximum deposits as the previous one. The grid is disc shaped, uniformly distributed and can stretch over grids of unusual polygonal shapes.

X X X X X X X X X X
X X X X X X X X X X
X X X X X X X X X X
X X X X X X X X X X
X X X X X X X X X X
X X X X X X X X X X
X X X X X X X X X X
X X X X X X X X X X
X X X X X X X X X X
X X X X X X X X X X

Above is a 10 by 10 grid uniformly distributed square. The length and height of it is 1km. Each point contains the same amount of loot and recharges at the same time. This is an illustration of the base system.

21 22 23 24 25
20 07 08 09 10
19 06 01 02 11
18 05 04 03 12
17 16 15 14 13

Above is a smaller grid consisting of 25 points. According to my research only a set amount of points are active at any one time, in this case prime numbers. Reason for this is that they can only be divided by 1 and them self and make for the perfect location of a "random-like" system. 1 is also counted as a prime for this system.

00 00 23 00 00
00 07 00 00 00
19 00 01 02 11
00 05 00 03 00
17 00 00 00 13

The grid looks a bit different now with a 36% (9/25) chance to hit and is known as Ulam's spiral.

This is not exactly as it looks ingame, more like a flattened sunflower but the concept remains. The only active numbers are prime.

In order to build the array, take the prime numbers out of a "sunflower phi spiral" and flatten it using a disc to square map. Land areas have non square polygonal shapes and need to be custom mapped. The process regarding that is too complex for my head at this time.

GGG said:

there is no claims underground like there is no loot in mob. it starting to generate after click... like slots, u put in coin, spin, wait, nerf or jackpot

Click to expand...

The above is just as plausible as randomness as it can be modeled the same way and yield the same hit rate +-27% as most miners experience. A 1km grid yields 100 numbers, there are 25 headers +1 for the number 1 = 26%

Some people can pray to the rnd gods or some can get off of their a$$e$ and make alternate models that actually match with what is observed.



The reason I asked if the claim after nrf happened in a land area is that one would expect to see resource claim distortions due to disc to polygon mapping known as Schwarz-Christoffel Transformation.

Enjoy your mining

R4tt3xx said:

Falagor,

Did this happen in a player owned land area ?

Click to expand...

Outside LAs. And you can easily repeat my experiment. Just grab TT finder (or rookie finder for less cost). Go out and drop and repeat droping after first finding nrf. You should find next claim after first nrf in same spot quite fast.
The experiment is really easy, fast to execute and not that expensive to make either.

GGG said:

there is no claims underground like there is no loot in mob. it starting to generate after click... like slots, u put in coin, spin, wait, nerf or jackpot

Click to expand...

It is NOT true about hunting for sure for two easons:

1) armor decay done by mob IS REMEMBERED on mob. Tetsted with friend with this experiment on caraboks:
- first i determined common looter range (its between 0 and 4.xx pec - it already depends here on weapon used but i dont want to get into details here)
- then i used overprotecting armor to sweat dry and then kill the mob and then the common looter is noticably higher (ranging even up to 8-9pec). Notice minimal "multi" on carabok is +10pec and you will NEVER see 5-9pec looters when hutning them normal way.
- then i was sweating the mob in armor and my friend was killing the mob (we were out of team) - he also was getting higher common looters.
Conclusion: armor decay (at least part of it) IS rememberd on mob and kill stealing is actually terrible thing .

2) if you let mob regen it also increases common looter (similar experiment but with regening mob intead of letting it chew on overprotecting armor). So damage done to mob is ALSO remembered on mob in similar way.

So on hunting loot MIGHT be generating after click but it also includes some factors that happen while the mob is still alive too.

Sidenote: both experiments did not yeld loot higher proportional to stupid cost generated. I would estimate both armor and regen is "payed back" in about 50-90% of cost connected with it. So it is NOT smart to do so anyway .

Falagor