Question: Thought on using a UL level 100 weapon with less skills?

e-lite

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Xaero e-lite Cynque
Hello people!

I am an old-timer around here, so I know how the skills system work pretty well. However, I see and hear some people that use UL "level 100" weapons even when their skills is not maxed out. This is also how we did it "back in the day". But I assume loot return has been balanced to match the "new" SIB weapons.

So I wanted to start this thread and hear what your thought are around using a UL weapon when lets say your hit-ability is just 6/10.

Do you guys think this is a very stupid idea? Why does people do it anyway? Do YOU do it? Should I stick to using SIB weapons that I have maxed out?

Thankful for your input guys!

Much love, e-lite Xaero
 
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Even when you starting Entropia there is a tip - Use only maxed weapons!
 
Allways use maxed or almost maxed (at least 9/10) tools... saves you alot of PEDs.

Cheers,
Kater!
 
"Always use maxed or almost maxed (at least 9/10) tools... saves you alot of PEDs."

Is that because of misses?
Why does it save a lot of peds?
 
"Always use maxed or almost maxed (at least 9/10) tools... saves you alot of PEDs."

Is that because of misses?
Why does it save a lot of peds?

When you use not maxed - you miss, that peds to air. Plus when damage is not maxed - pay full cost to shoot, but you get less damage. Combine both and lose will increase...
 
There are hunting logs on this forum with people using the best non-sib eco weapon (imk2) and reporting significant losses, being maxed out and max efficient is key I think.
 
Here is the log I was thinking about:
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...53-Longtime-s-IMK2-Hunting-Log&highlight=imk2

He even has best crit scope and dmg laser..

Crit scope Mk I.

He ended 91% overall which is not horrible (believe his peak eco was at 3.03 or something around those lines.

His return with markups was about 98%. Mine using level appropriate gear (with pretty much same effective eco as him) ended at 99%.

So despite him not being maxed, similar eco yielded similar results.
 
My personal experience shows that the losses are about 10% (I have now HA/CHA = 8.0/8.1) This is enough for good return (I use ML-35 SGA T6 fully enhanced). I see NO point to use L weapons with 25-45% MU, because it is more expensive than 10% losses and enhancers consumption rate is very-very high on L weapons. But my advise for OP is to start using UL oldtime weapons after 50-60 level in your dmg profession.
 
Crit scope Mk I.

He ended 91% overall which is not horrible (believe his peak eco was at 3.03 or something around those lines.

His return with markups was about 98%. Mine using level appropriate gear (with pretty much same effective eco as him) ended at 99%.

So despite him not being maxed, similar eco yielded similar results.

Ah ok Mk I, and completely agree it was not horrible. It was meant to put things in perspective.
 
I still use my UL non-SIB and I'm low (due to chip out) My loot is certainly not adjusted. I just suck it up.
 
Yeah, the answers are pretty much what I had expected! Thanks a lot for your input ya'll!
 
A few years back I asked myself the same question; everyone was telling me to use maxed L guns because it's the way to go. So, I have decided to test it myself on my favourite mob at the time: Argonauts (small). I've used 4 different guns, 2 L and 2 UL; I've burned 8K ammo plus about 3K in decay and killed around 13k mobs. These numbers provide IMO a decent enough base for stats. At the time my HA was at level 40.

The highest return that I've got is with an UL weapon . Did I miss more? Absolutely. But, you have to think about all the other issues with L: MU, availability, tiering. For some, these are not an issue but for me they are. I don't have a lot of time to play so being able to login and play is important; sometimes, I had to wait a few days until the L was available. Also, for me, TT-ing the guns made me cringe as the returns almost never covered the price + MU. I've seen this mistake a lot where people are comparing decay only between L and UL. Add the price and MU and all of a sudden it's not that eco any more.

I do use L to be honest; I don't have to funds to buy a super UL gun so my damage is limited. If I feel like going after bigger mobs I occasionally go and buy an UL gun with superior damage. Other than that, on my daily hunts I use UL.

The other thing I've recently start testing is the number of skills you get with L vs UL; so far, it's not looking good: more skill points for UL!! I'm thinking that maybe you get more with L.... but only during the learning period.

Do some testing yourself and see where you stand; obviously, this is my experience and it's by no means stated as a fact that applies to everyone.
 
If you keep paying 130%, 150% or even more for L weapons, you're doing pretty much the same.

As a rule of thumb, it is recommended to not use non-sib gear below a skill level of 70, but of course that depends on everybody's preference, tolerance and budget. For myself, I've currently set that threshold to 50 when I intend to at least try it out more seriously. I already afford myself a little fun with the Maddie here and there, I'm 30-ish now and of course it's lossy. But hurts oh-so-good :p

Unlimited sib gear is so expensive it often ties up the equivalent of several CLD's, money which can't earn interest while stuck. This is also a cost factor many tend to forget. Then not everybody has the pockets for such an investment in the first place, but could tolerate slightly higher cost every month.

It really depends on a lot of factors, there is no one-size-fits-all answer to this. Some challenge themselves with trying to squeeze out the last pec in eco, others set different priorities. Make yourself aware of the total cost of gameplay for your preferred style, then decide if you need to change something about it.
 
This Is No Rocket Surgery!

Goto Entropedia WeaponCompare
Select the UL gun, input your skill levels 4 Hit & Dmg, click "Add Weapon"
Then select L gun u have maxed, click "Add Weapon"
There u have the dpp numbers for comparison. It's all about DPP, there's no magic involved. (Well not much anyway)

Wanna see a ballpark estimation how much extra u can pay for MU before the dpp becomes equal?
Click "Relative values".
If u play around /w several weapons, amps, and tiers, u'lll be surprised how different can L weapons be, and also UL weapons.
Before someone points out the obvious - yes it's no way 100% accurate method but it's quite enough to give u the general idea about the expected results. Want accurate results forget about Entropedia, take the gun and test it in action urself

Fifth, an oldschool UL rifle user (@HA 9.0/10)
 
Goto Entropedia WeaponCompare
Select the UL gun, input your skill levels 4 Hit & Dmg, click "Add Weapon"
Then select L gun u have maxed, click "Add Weapon"
There u have the dpp numbers for comparison. It's all about DPP, there's no magic involved. (Well not much anyway)

Wanna see a ballpark estimation how much extra u can pay for MU before the dpp becomes equal?
Click "Relative values".
If u play around /w several weapons, amps, and tiers, u'lll be surprised how different can L weapons be, and also UL weapons.
Before someone points out the obvious - yes it's no way 100% accurate method but it's quite enough to give u the general idea about the expected results. Want accurate results forget about Entropedia, take the gun and test it in action urself

Fifth, an oldschool UL rifle user (@HA 9.0/10)

My tests, and the ones I've bothered to ask about, shows that entropedia is pretty much spot on.

Don't forget that hit is changed and should be added as 40 + (Profstanding*0.6). For instance:

Level 0 = Level 40
Level 10 = Level 46
Level 20 = Level 52
Level 30 = Level 58
Level 40 = Level 64
Level 50 = Level 70
Level 60 = Level 76
Level 70 = Level 82
Level 80 = Level 88
Level 90 = Level 94
Level 100 = Level 100

Damnit. Was supposed to give two examples, well, there's a list for the full tens.
 
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Don't forget that hit is changed and should be added as 40 + (Profstanding*0.6). For instance:
Dammit, kept forgetting about that, thanks for reminder. Means I'm actually better than expected already, >2.5 dpp with the amped Maddox. Do I still want to spend 4-5k ped on a maxed uL gun? Hmm...
 
Using a non maxed imk2 vs. A Gravis type weapon are really two different animals. I would still use an imk2 even at my current level.. it's more of a matter of price for me now. The benefit with an imk2 is that there is little to no decay... but this also means slower skill gains.

So short of having a non maxed 3dpp plus weapon available, there is no reason to consider a non maxed weapon. It isn't even a smart alternative for sustainable hunting than paying 5k for a UL SIB weapon.
 
i did better with my i287 from lvl 80 to 100 then I did past lvl 100... both in TT as in mu
 
The benefit with an imk2 is that there is little to no decay... but this also means slower skill gains.
Yet another bit I was not aware of, are skill gains related to decay, specifically? With the Maddox, decay:ammo is a whopping 1:2, does that mean I would actually blast through the ranks with it? I haven't shot it enough to notice, should try once more and pay attention.

It isn't even a smart alternative for sustainable hunting than paying 5k for a UL SIB weapon.
Fully aware of that, but I would interject that sometimes the picture just is bigger. It is a thing to spend a chunk of money upfront on a game versus smaller amounts repeatedly, even if the first is the better choice. Personally, Snubnose and Golden Tommy or the nice top-end Cyrene gear simply aren't in the budget, still. So the choice is to either keep swatting flies until that changes one day, or waste some where it doesn't hurt so much. That's why I said above, it depends on more factors what goes into the decision. I find we focus too narrow sometimes.

As long as fitting L gear can be had for under 110%, I'll take it of course. I'm wary of the Pirons, they're good but actually too expensive. The Ardenners and equivalents are a welcome addition here, prices can vary but works often enough. Unlimited o.t.o.h. means peace of mind, but unless your pockets are deep enough you just have to live with less efficiency. As long as you're aware of it, you can make such a decision. I believe this is why this thread exists if I didn't misunderstand the OP. Everybody talks about the classy stuff at the highest end like Imk2, but these aren't obtainable for many and I'm not sure he was referring to them.
 
Don't forget that hit is changed and should be added as 40 + (Profstanding*0.6). For instance

I was just curious if you have a reference/discussion thread for this? I was not aware.
 
I was just curious if you have a reference/discussion thread for this? I was not aware.

I don't. Can't find it.

It changed quite a while ago. Earlier you had H.A at the same number as your level (75 gave 7.5, 40 gave 4.0 etc). If you run to auction and check any UL non-sib weapon, you'll see your numbers add up to it.

I'll try finding the thread and edit the post if I find it.
 
always go maxed UNLESS you are just playing around... Good ol weapons that have max damage per click can be fun time to time... Love having a Katsuichi Determination or high damage per click gun on hand for times when health is low and a bunch of mobs go agro... or in case I feel silly and want to go in to a ring sometime. ;)

And, yes, that change did happen a while back... maybe about 2 years ago or so... but I'm not sure if the actual hit average changed or if MA just made it look like it did in the info window to make people feel more confident so that they'd spend more peds in decay? Not sure on this, but I think that change happened after dev note 2 that talked a lot about HA, and the change happened when people started talking about HA more in the community... That type of thing seems to happen a lot with MA... people bitch so MA responds by making things seem better in game, when in fact they may or may not become that way... Remember how 'important' it was that second item be used for the tiering process. How long did that last?
 
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Remember how 'important' it was that second item be used for the tiering process. How long did that last?

That was so fucked up! I saw someone asking in a thread recently about wanting to buy a helmet from a full POE set, iirc to replace one that was destroyed in that tiering process :laugh:
 
It all depends of what yout goal is.

If you want to play in the most eco way -Use maxed weapon. You never see "you missed", but don't get skillbonus.
If you want to skill in an eco way -Use a 9.9 -weapon. You're almost down to pecs loss in a 400ped hunt compared to maxed out -And get the bonus.
If you dont care -Use whatever.

But if you can afford an imkII, you can start using it at ~lvl 80 -Far from maxed, but it will still the most eco gun ingame.
The negative part is that you don't get the bonus...
 
That was so fucked up! I saw someone asking in a thread recently about wanting to buy a helmet from a full POE set, iirc to replace one that was destroyed in that tiering process :laugh:

Wasn't that MA's way of trying to get rid of the replicated items??? (not that it worked lol)

Rgds

Ace
 
I have a rule to never pay more than 3k for an item
I also hate [L].
This means I can not afford many UL sib ranged options.
I have an enkidd howler s4 UL sib for tagging
Gravis glr 36 /a106 for in between.
songkra/trauma VI for Main damage.
Because of this I don't notice UL non sib loss that much.
It's better eco and dps than I ever had.

I bought the trauma VI recently (I'm actually thankful that Mindark destroyed the MU)
 
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my expeience is that i used L sib weapons to level 50 and then stayed level 50 for a very long time after i acquired a UL SIB pistol i loved very much (herman ASI TEN) the skilling was amazingly fast and the dps was awesome, when i made the decision to make the leap to level 70 to achieve commando (slowly working on it still) i purchased UL non-sib FoeRipper. my returns are exactly the same since ive been level 50 with this gun (now lvl 68) as my returns were with ASI TEN. i love this gun even more because it grows as i grow without the need to buy new guns.

bar none the best purchase in EU ive ever made was switching to foeripper and kicking ass with it. you can go "eco" and go without an amp or enhancers and smash through small mobs or you can go to shared loot waves and tank with enhancers and big amps and soak kill points for very low cost relative to soloing same mobs. or you can take it into events and stand a very good chance at winning a top spot with a high enough tier.

im never going back to sib, ever, not even if you paid me to.

my FoeRipper is also not for sale and i have 0 intentions of selling within the next few years so dont ask!
unless i ath a few times then i might consider renting.
 
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