Why new features are bad for you in Entropia

Gewitter said:

If our loot remains until now as on your picture, now we got 5000 Mod FAP ingame which worth +300 PED.
Same with other stuff. Please think about it.

Click to expand...

yeah, think about it, rather than using extreme edge case as a counter argument. some things should be forever super rare, but many shouldn be at least obtainable. maybe not in a 300ped hof, but there should be regular drops of something like Salamader parts or a ML35 across the player community. it should never have become so rare in the first place that it was worth $1500. you should be able to put in a graft on a mob and have a reasonable expection of a nice item drop. time was you targeted a mob for an item, you camped if for weeks and got the item. people used to aim to loot a vigi set or something and that was achivable if dedicated challenge. you paid to shortcut that challenge, and created a market of items v peoples time to acquire that item.

The problem is not the rare items, but the fact that some people are willing sit on some mob for days, weeks or months, for only to acquire the valuable loot and get superprofits. This is a fact, all this was true (and true today). Therefore the game has changed (I mean algoritm and loot). I see only one anomaly - it's just your picture. This should not be. No way. Never. I wrote earlier in other thread that there was nothing at all to be a unlimited (All Mod. Imp. FAP's and other rare stuff are a big mistake of developers (Equus too )). Although we joked in 2007 or in 2008 (was start of limited stuff), that the pixie will be limited soon. And so it now limited too.

Oleg said:

This is exactly what I've been saying since the boxes were introduced, and I will add that I feel it's a major problem that we can only get these things by depositing.

To me success in EU means being able to play at a mid to high level without depositing. Without that goal I see no purpose.

Click to expand...

Do I count as mid to high level? I don't have any rings and as you see above I'm more concerned with noDrop than with new better things dropping. I think there should always be progression in the game.

Just observations I noticed since the new rings etc came out.

1. I have not noticed any loot distribution changes per mob really, it is hard to track being so dynamic you can get nova to uber loot so.

2. I have noticed mobs hit harder now or at least the ones I hunt do. I use to hunt ok with simple armor and items and I had to gear up now to hunt the same mobs.

3. Rings and pills do increase your % as intended but as Art stated when I wear them I get crit'ed way more, it is just an observation I have not run detailed tests but I do seem to take a lot of crit's now then what I once use to.

I am assuming the game in the short term is affected by the new pills and rings etc but in the long run scheme of things over years and years you will average out to that mythical 90% as you did before, just you scaled your hunting around to different mobs or levels then you once were use to.

Adapt to the changes or feel the consequences it seems. I think they are just adding more content that doesn't really effect the long term results to tell you the truth. But unless you use the new items to keep up with the mobs you once use to hunt or you scale back and start hunting smaller again as per my #2 observation.

Karmic said:

Do I count as mid to high level? I don't have any rings and as you see above I'm more concerned with noDrop than with new better things dropping. I think there should always be progression in the game.

Click to expand...

I think you're an excellent example of someone who's playing without deposits at a solid mid-level. Perhaps at the lower end of that, not because of your skills but because you tend to do things that many would consider "below your level", as they might for me too.

That makes you exactly the kind of person who I think will struggle to maintain that in this new world. Are you?

my eco and killspeed is up to pills and rings a bit, but loot is exactly the same, I only turnover money a bit faster = more profit for MA

So far newbies, new challengers and mostly reckles mid lvl players were upkeeping MA. Hard thinking and counting mid lvl's and ubers could break even and play for free or even earn and progress. Ma just moved "profit point " for them.

Now all from newbies to mid lvl's upkeeping MA and only small minority of ubers can break even ( if they focus and work hard ).

Above makes this game not fun anymore for most of playerbase, as ubernes is always top few % of them, therefore decreasing numbers of people ingame which is force such changes from MA even more. Loop.

Art Jennifer said:

I know someone who has run tests.

The rings and pills, simply do nothing, but give an illusion.

Lets say over XX amount of runs, wearing the crit ring, you will crit more, however your average damage will be down, so it balances it out.

If you wear the evade ring, you will evade more, but be crited by the mob more at larger amounts.

Run some tests yourself.

Keep in mind I am a bugged avatar.

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure this is inaccurate, atleast in my own experience. Wearing crit ring and using crit/attack speed pills has increased my average efficiency and return over all.

new features is what keeps games exciting!

the important thing is, what kind of new features or changes are done to the game!

i think the new rings are a good and cool addition IF THEY WEREN'T UNTRADABLE!!!
(of course they could have come up with scifi stuff like brain enhancers or sth instead of rings)

in addition, you have to pay outside of the game to get L rings..good for MA, bad for RCE...

the untradable stuff and the fact that the whole mining crafting hunting cycle gets more and more destroyed is very very bad for rce in my opinion...
instead of new bps they just add items in loots and boxes..stupid move...
the new added mu ressources (like shrooms) are traded for unl stuff meaning the value of those ressources will only go down in MU...

there were times you could grind on drones with stable 1/3 130% gazz loot because the gazz was crafted heavily away...
thats the kind of mu needed in this game...not predictible timed 1 ped rare items exchanged for unl...or 1 ped elm weapons flooding the market..or all the unl stuff where each drop devalues all the other comparable unl and L stuff a little bit..

Magnus Mag said:

in addition, you have to pay outside of the game to get L rings..good for MA, bad for RCE...

Click to expand...

Actually this makes no difference at all. you deposit using the transfer center you get PED that needs to be spend on materials to cycle into the game to add to the game. The same goes for web shop you get materials to play with in game instead of PED but it still needs to be cycled into the game to add to the game. In no way is one different then the other, the only difference is the DIBS surcharge can be waved via the web shop if you use the right transaction process.

Doing one action or the other has no impact on the game until you cycle what you get into the game.

Now if your talking about this non-tradable and non-tt'able shit with the items from the web shop I agree. Everything should be at least tt'able, you should not have avatar bound shit you can't get rid of when you buy it from the web shop or in the game. I understand non-tradable for some items but non-tt'able is total bullshit.

K-Max said:

Actually this makes no difference at all. you deposit using the transfer center you get PED that needs to be spend on materials to cycle into the game to add to the game. The same goes for web shop you get materials to play with in game instead of PED but it still needs to be cycled into the game to add to the game. In no way is one different then the other, the only difference is the DIBS surcharge can be waved via the web shop if you use the right transaction process.

Click to expand...

of course there is a difference...

one of the main core parts of RCE (at least for me) is that if you play smart or are a good trader you can play for free or even make money...
but if you need the rings (as some say) to keep up with the trends and get the same return you have to gamble with paying money outside of the game to find some L rings...
you can't say deposit (or use existing ingame peds) to buy a L ring, you have to buy boxes and hope you get what you want, and get tons of shit you don't even need or want to use and can't tt that..

Magnus Mag said:

of course there is a difference...

one of the main core parts of RCE (at least for me) is that if you play smart or are a good trader you can play for free or even make money...
but if you need the rings (as some say) to keep up with the trends and get the same return you have to gamble with paying money outside of the game to find some L rings...

Click to expand...

No you just need to scale your play accordingly, if you scale down to a smaller mob to compensate for the changes you can still make the same profit margin, if you just try to stick with the same mob same items and style without adjusting yes you will loose without using the new items.

You can still play and achieve the same you just have to adjust your play a bit. They do these changes so the people that constantly find the easy money grove in the game have to now find a new grove instead of making grinding bots of themselves. It actually makes total sense what MA is doing to constantly keep the game changing to cause people to adjust their play to get rid of the constant profits from these few that find that grove. The game is a game not a farming tool to make profit as a job that's all I see MA trying to do stop the farmers.

Magnus Mag said:

of course there is a difference...

one of the main core parts of RCE (at least for me) is that if you play smart or are a good trader you can play for free or even make money...

Click to expand...

The other key difference is that when buying something in-game with deposited PEDs, you're not only putting money into the game but also creating a flow of PEDs from one person to another, which is the foundation of any economy. When buying items directly from the webshop there is no such flow.

Oleg said:

The other key difference is that when buying something in-game with deposited PEDs, you're not only putting money into the game but also creating a flow of PEDs from one person to another, which is the foundation of any economy. When buying items directly from the webshop there is no such flow.

Click to expand...

You wouldn't want to buy the peds from the webshop anyways, the DIBS rate from ingame transfer center is cheaper then the webshop exchange rate. So yes if you need peds I agree use the ingame transfer center. If you need just ammo or want to play the boxes use the webshop or need any of the other items and not ped webshop is maybe best option. If your just getting ped from ingame transfer center to buy ammo to hunt with its the same dang thing as getting ammo from the webshop.

Webshop is an option... You can still depo via transfer center if you wish. I actually do both still depending of if I need ped or just ammo or whatever else the webshop has.

K-Max said:

They do these changes so the people that constantly find the easy money grove in the game have to now find a new grove instead of making grinding bots of themselves. It actually makes total sense what MA is doing to constantly keep the game changing to cause people to adjust their play to get rid of the constant profits from these few that find that grove. The game is a game not a farming tool to make profit as a job that's all I see MA trying to do stop the farmers.

Click to expand...

i disagree that they did it to make ppl adjust their play. it is obvious that they added boxes to get more money influx, combined with "you have to cycle it" + "those ped are locked".
like shrapnel and expl bps cycle more more more...
the player driven economy transforms into buy from MA pay to win economy...

and i don't understand why you think hunting smaller mobs would be better than hunting big mobs without rings...explain plz

Magnus Mag said:

i disagree that they did it to make ppl adjust their play. it is obvious that they added boxes to get more money influx, combined with "you have to cycle it" + "those ped are locked".
like shrapnel and expl bps cycle more more more...
the player driven economy transforms into buy from MA pay to win economy...

and i don't understand why you think hunting smaller mobs would be better than hunting big mobs without rings...explain plz

Click to expand...

Well each their own opinion but that's the way I see it on the first topic. As I stated locking PED into items that can't be traded or at least tt'ed is total bullshit on MA part I agree with all topics relating to that and MA being bastards about locking PED into those useless items that you can never get rid of. But they have done that with other stuff not bought from web shop also, and still bullshit on doing that as well.

The second, well if you can't hunt the same mobs the same old way without the pills, rings etc and profit it only makes sense to go a bit smaller to hunt those without the new items, adjust your gear as needed. Your under a false illusion in thinking you profit more hunting big all you really get is chance of looting a higher markup item but normal loot return is the same damn shit compared to how much you cycle at all levels of play if you adjust your gear correctly with or without using pills etc. If you don't adapt to the game changes each VU you'll always get fucked over. Nothing is going to stay the same so you can farm consistent at all times forever. What would be the point to play the game at that point may as well call it a job and well this is a way to get away from a job.

But apparently we disagree which is fine I stated my views, I disagree with yours so guess that is that.

K-Max said:

The second, well if you can't hunt the same mobs the same old way without the pills, rings etc and profit it only makes sense to go a bit smaller to hunt those without the new items, adjust your gear as needed. Your under a false illusion in thinking you profit more hunting big all you really get is chance of looting a higher markup item but normal loot return is the same damn shit compared to how much you cycle at all levels of play if you adjust your gear correctly with or without using pills etc. If you don't adapt to the game changes each VU you'll always get fucked over. Nothing is going to stay the same so you can farm consistent at all times forever. What would be the point to play the game at that point may as well call it a job and well this is a way to get away from a job.

But apparently we disagree which is fine I stated my views, I disagree with yours so guess that is that.

Click to expand...

sure you have to adabt after every VU i agree. but my point is one shouldn't have to buy boxes to gamble items from MA to do this...you should be able to buy everything ingame...
and i am not thinking hunting bigger is better. my point is if the ones using rings have 3.3 eco and those without have 3.0 eco (example values) it doesn't matter what lvl mobs you hunt, you are doing worse...

Magnus Mag said:

sure you have to adabt after every VU i agree. but my point is one shouldn't have to buy boxes to gamble items from MA to do this...you should be able to buy everything ingame...
and i am not thinking hunting bigger is better. my point is if the ones using rings have 3.3 eco and those without have 3.0 eco (example values) it doesn't matter what lvl mobs you hunt, you are doing worse...

Click to expand...

well 3.3 eco only if you think tt value only, my ul ring definitely not no uber eco ring I payed 700 USD to get the damn thing that eco rating is shit atm I'll be using it for years to take that eco rating down.

if you pay huge markup for an item your eco rating is shot to hell especially when items in this game loose value so fast. using tt values only eco looks nice but reality is unless you can sell for the same price you bought at years later that eco rating is false.

you can't say something is eco if you over pay for it don't cover the cost of what you payed and can't cover it by selling it again. nothing eco about that at all.

What concerns me the most aren't the items themselves. They had been toying with the idea of giving avatars boosts through worn items, in clothing, armor sets, amps... The problem is threefold with the rings, though:

1. The way they were introduced. No support to the economy at all, just pay MA directly and hope to get lucky.
2. No other alternative way to obtain them. For avatar bonuses, we already had several alternatives MA could have refined further that all involved avatar professions and existing systems. They could have made the rings craftable and bring in a whole new range of stat-boosting clothing, which is something they've also been toying with for a while, or simply improved MF/pet bonuses so they were all on par with rings. But nay, they just decided to make all those systems obsolete, gg
3. Past the initial wearing, which I see merely as a plain consequence of the fact they are considered clothing THE RINGS DO NOT DECAY. They said they might have constant deterioration in a future VU. Maybe. We all know how MA's maybe's and soon's are.

I'm sure that if rings did decay outright and they had a decay rate comparable with similar existing costs, taking pet energy consumption rates/pill and nanobot TT value/decay and ME consumption for MF chips in consideration and perhaps even review for rebalancing as they did rebalance MF costs, a fair bit of the concerns surrounding them would be dispelled and unless MA is paying the difference out of their pockets (which I doubt), it is the only instance I see them having a huge negative impact in the economy, even more so than the way they're initially acquired.

I know why they did it. They wanted rings to be far more attractive for those buying their shiny new strongboxes. They've been hurting for quick money for a while- see: CLD Estate System, Mission Galactica and all the special sales and promos they've had these last years. See a particular pattern in all of them? They all involve taking money out of the economy and paying MA directly for the promise of value on items while they keep most of the would-be TT value. The same MU they have no qualms in utterly shattering whenever they introduce The Best New Thing™ to make previous items and systems obsolete.

I cannot predict the future, but I think this is how they're going to proceed: Once they've had their fill with the strongboxes, and only then, they'll introduce decay into the rings and all stat-enhancing clothing. Cue in initial outrage and half-assed explanation of economy balance. Unlimited rings will have their max TT value dramatically increased so they're slightly more convenient and becomes more tempting to tie up larger amounts of PED into them. (L) rings will become the taste of what their bigger brothers can offer, they'll retain their existing TT value but decay at a reduced rate. Any considerable investments into unL rings will therefore be reduced in value considerably, as now they'll have a perceptible cost to use. MA will pat themselves on the back for another job well done, maximizing short-term profit with minimal development time and continue with the next thing down the list. And so on...

Now, I really want MA and EU in general to succeed. But only under its own merits. Yes, I admit I went down and bought a few strongboxes to see what was the big fuss about them, got a handful of pills and two (L) rings out of it. I see them selling universal ammo as a good idea for people to have an alternative to deposits. Starter packs elicit a more mixed reaction for me, as they negatively affect value on starting gear slightly, the very same gear a newbie should be expecting to loot or purchase to cycle more PED in the economy. Otherwise? Yes, they offer pretty good value. The strongboxes... now they're a rather awful idea for the long-term health of EU and they set a bad precedent for things to come.

Oleg said:

I think you're an excellent example of someone who's playing without deposits at a solid mid-level. Perhaps at the lower end of that, not because of your skills but because you tend to do things that many would consider "below your level", as they might for me too.

That makes you exactly the kind of person who I think will struggle to maintain that in this new world. Are you?

Click to expand...

No, I don't believe I will struggle at all, the same people who were more eco than I am and playing at a higher level will continue to be. The rest, as usual, will get some new toys and jump up trying to solo things at even higher levels and lose even more.

Meanwhile, I greatly benefit from cheap melee amps so it works both ways.

But, I do still have a problem with them being untradable, this is the only thing that really affects me. I should be able to buy them from another player if they want to sell it to me.

My hope is the wording of the boxes currently being the only way to get rings and that there will be an in-game way to get the rings.

PCF:


New items introduced "Playerbase reacts and says how they dont like the new items"

Gap between VU's with few new items introduced "Playerbase reacts and asks where the Dev's are and where are the new items?"




I could link the threads, but I've seen both types in past few months and I'm sure you have too.

NeutrinoX said:

What concerns me the most aren't the items themselves. They had been toying with the idea of giving avatars boosts through worn items, in clothing, armor sets, amps... The problem is threefold with the rings, though:

1. No other alternative way to obtain them. For avatar bonuses, we already had several alternatives MA could have refined further that all involved avatar professions and existing systems. They could have made the rings craftable

Click to expand...

Indeed. What made this part of your comment stand out to me was that it reminded me of the gems I looted, and some purchased, sitting in a storage box in my stockpile. I considered them an investment into the future when I acquired them eons ago, as I figured SOMEDAY, they could be used to craft jewellery...which was more than hinted at to us by MA, way back when.

Now, hell, just pay MA money outside of the game and if you're lucky, you can just BUY yourself a ring...but it really has no value as it's not tradeable.

Looks like it's time to TT those gems. Good job MA on yet another thing going off-tangent into oblivion.

Coelacanth said:

Now, hell, just pay MA money outside of the game and if you're lucky, you can just BUY yourself a ring...but it really has no value as it's not tradeable.

Click to expand...

Unlimited rings ARE tradeable, and have been often traded on the forum.