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Does DPP really matter?

H

Hunter X Hunter

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May 17, 2014
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If we were to leave all defensive cost (armor, healing cost) and regen aside for now
and say we kill a mob "eomon young" which has 502 stamina points which translate to 5020 hp with
(Herman Law-40 Smuggler) 50.3 dps, 2.816 dpp unenhanced and unamped.

The cost to kill eomon young with this weapon would be:

5020 / 2.816 = 1782.67 pecs = 17.826 ped considering there was no overkill.


and we compare that to killing it with (Imk II) 50 dps, 3.28 dpp unenhanced and unamped

The cost to kill eomon young with this weapon would be:

5020 / 3.28 = 1530.48 pecs = 15.304 ped considering there was no overkill.

as you can see, the cost to kill eomon young is 17.826 ped vs 15.304 ped

so my question now is "Does Mindark has a set "cost to kill" for each mob in game"?

Because what I've understood is that if they don't have a set "cost to kill" for each mob in game, then if I were to hit a multiplier of 300 on eomon using (Herman Law-40 Smuggler), I would have got 17.826 x 300 = a 5347.8 ped HOF.
On the other hand, if I were to hit a multiplier of 300 on eomon using (Imk II), I would have got 15.304 x 300 = a 4591.2 ped HOF.

So even tho i am spending 17.826 ped per kill I get more when I hit a 300 multiplier than when spending 15.304 ped per kill and hit a 300 multiplier.

IF this were true, then DPP does not matter. since your loot is related to your cost to kill and using a weapon with low dpp does increase your cost to kill compare to using a weapon with higher dpp but at the same time your loot is increased as well. (if the statement "loot is related to cost to kill" is true)

In other words, using a bad eco weapon only puts you on a higher scale of gamble. you might either lose more or win more but not at a disadvantage compare to those using higher dpp weapons.

Thoughts?
 
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I hunted a lot with maxed bad eco weapons and I hunted a lot with ARS+ A101, I can ashure you I get more tt % back with the ARS (and had more fun with high dps bad eco weapons :laugh:) - but the difference is a lot smaller then pure numbers may say
 
Well the key assumption there is that the amount you get back factors in your offensive cost to kill. This is also known as the "eco doesn't matter" loot theory. So if you make that assumption then really all u want to focus on is
- stay within your budget
- minimise defense costs (say though use of a good fapper, or high dps).

Having said that, killing cheaply does mean u get more mobs killed for ur peds so a greater chance of a stable return for a given budget.

Personally I don't think the original assumption is warranted. I believe that loot depends on the amount of damage done (taking into account complicating factors such as overkill and regeneration). With this loot theory, eco definitely does matter and good dpp is one way to minimise costs. However I don't think I can prove my assumption is correct. It is however consistent with my experience and with what MA has said in its developer notes.
 
If I had to take a guess.....

I would say that the system keeps a running average of the dpp done to each creature over a given time period and then uses that to multiply by the hp and calculate the expected cost per kill. The loot then multiplies off that value based on your RNG.

So people hunting more eco than the average for that mob will would overall expect better returns assuming the RNG is constant, whereas the more un-eco people will expect to receive lower returns.

Of course there are some examples of un-eco hitting it big, because, well.... RNG
 
KijkkiJikki said:
Well the key assumption there is that the amount you get back factors in your offensive cost to kill. This is also known as the "eco doesn't matter" loot theory. So if you make that assumption then really all u want to focus on is
- stay within your budget
- minimise defense costs (say though use of a good fapper, or high dps).

Having said that, killing cheaply does mean u get more mobs killed for ur peds so a greater chance of a stable return for a given budget.

Personally I don't think the original assumption is warranted. I believe that loot depends on the amount of damage done (taking into account complicating factors such as overkill and regeneration). With this loot theory, eco definitely does matter and good dpp is one way to minimise costs. However I don't think I can prove my assumption is correct. It is however consistent with my experience and with what MA has said in its developer notes.
Click to expand...


so basically you are saying:
if loot is related to cost to kill = dpp doesn't matter
if loot is related to dmg done = dpp matters

however, the second statement would implicitly mean that MA has a set "cost to kill" for every mob in game.
I think the real question here is with "what number" the multiplier is multiplied with?

your cost to kill or MA has a number?
 
If you trust what I say (plus with a healthy pinch of salt), then...

Hunter X Hunter said:
...
Click to expand...

Does DPP really matter?

Yes. DPP does matter.

Provided that we leave all defensive cost (armor, healing cost) and regen aside and out of the equation.

Does Mindark have a set "cost to kill" for each mob in game?

No. On the contrary, I'ld rather say that Mindark has a set "cost to pay out" for each mob in the game. On average of course.

My Observation

As far as I have observed, on most of the mobs that I've killed, you tend to get back around 3 pecs per 10 hp that the mob has. May be slightly more, may be slightly less pending on the run and your luck, but on average, with sufficient kills....that has mostly stayed true. Provided that we leave all defensive cost (armor, healing cost) and regen aside and out of the equation, of course.

Anyway, for your further information, on all the mobs that I've killed, I've worn no armor, had no healing costs and have killed them fast enough for regen to be "negligible".

Additionally, it is also true that they are all low hp mobs that are quite easily "dispatched" even by noobs...so it may be hard to conclude that the same will apply for high hp, high dmg and/or high regen mobs.

But nonetheless, that is what I've observed.

And on a further note, if it is remotely possible for you to push up your DPP to 3.0 or above...on that mob...then it becomes theoretically possible for you to stay afloat or even become "+ve" on profit and markup...on that mob.

(Long story short - Reduce your cost to kill on the mob to as close to 3 pecs per 10 hp and you will survive.)

But the ultimate question is...Do you believe what I have said?

:lolup:
 
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Hunter X Hunter said:
so basically you are saying:
if loot is related to cost to kill = dpp doesn't matter
if loot is related to dmg done = dpp matters

however, the second statement would implicitly mean that MA has a set "cost to kill" for every mob in game.
I think the real question here is with "what number" the multiplier is multiplied with?

your cost to kill or MA has a number?
Click to expand...

Only MA knows the answer to that.

I guess I am used to situations where I need to make optimum decisions in an environment that includes unknowns. If my assumption is correct, then regardless of the actual base ped value that is multiplied, I am going to maximise my return by minimising my overall costs.

Having said that I actually optimise for fun. I want to get the most fun for my peds so while I aim to play efficiently I don't take it to extremes.

BTW here is a very interesting thread about loot mechanics, including multipliers: https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...6-Player-s-Notes-vol-1-Hunting-Loot-Mechanics
 
Yes, the DPP matters. No, the cost to kill is not taken into consideration for your loot return.
 
e-lite said:
Yes, the DPP matters. No, the cost to kill is not taken into consideration for your loot return.
Click to expand...

Is this theory or are you based on facts?
Because I think the cost is related with what you're going to loot.
Also all these guys who hunting Feffox are doomed!
If I'm wrong then I probaly should re-consider what should hunt.
But I'm pretty sure a snablesnot or a daikiba it want give me 500/1000 PED global :tongue2:
 
Related to the mob's Health, yes. Related to your individual cost to kill, no. That would be like rewarding stupid behavior.

I can tell you for absolute certainty that when I switched from a non-maxed out Maddox IV to a maxed out snubnose, it was like day and night difference. I consistently played a lot longer between deposits. Not just like kind of a little, whatever, but consistently, noticeably longer.

If you don't believe me, buy my Mad IV and find out for yourself.
 
loot is based on damage done, period

its within borders though, probably 2-300% of base cost of mob.
Thats why regen doesnt matter much, overkil does.

so dpp is very important.


kikkijikki explains well

greetings
 
MAs own words

Efficiency Matters - One issue that we have noticed being discussed quite frequently on community forums such as PlanetCalypsoForm.com is the concept of efficiency (sometimes referred to as economy), especially with regard to hunting tools such as ranged and melee weapons. A growing number of participants seem to have adopted an approach based on the theory that “economy does not matter”, a theory apparently based on (faulty) field tests or other experiments. We would like to state here very clearly that avatar skills and efficiency on the tools used do indeed matter a great deal, and have a very significant effect on overall returns in all Entropia Universe professions. Any playtest experiments, theorycrafting or other analysis you may be presented with which indicate or suggest that efficiency does not matter are thus flawed either in their conception, data collection, data analysis or conclusions.
 
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Billy Jean Ruby said:
Is this theory or are you based on facts?
Because I think the cost is related with what you're going to loot.
Also all these guys who hunting Feffox are doomed!
If I'm wrong then I probaly should re-consider what should hunt.
But I'm pretty sure a snablesnot or a daikiba it want give me 500/1000 PED global :tongue2:
Click to expand...

Your possible loot is only based on the mob HP (stamina). It doesn't matter if you spend 17 ped or 170 ped to kill an Eomon Young, the actual loot you are able to get is the same. Hence DPP is crucial. There's a pretty good reason why the price tag is high on 3+ DPP weapons. It's usually because they are money makers.
 
e-lite said:
Your possible loot is only based on the mob HP (stamina). It doesn't matter if you spend 17 ped or 170 ped to kill an Eomon Young, the actual loot you are able to get is the same. Hence DPP is crucial. There's a pretty good reason why the price tag is high on 3+ DPP weapons. It's usually because they are money makers.
Click to expand...

I guess part of the question is if you use a maxed sib lets say
DPP 2.95
DPS 25

Will it then give the same TT return from one mob as using

DPP 2.95
DPS 50

?

DPP will be the same, but cost to kill will be different because of regen. I think it has been tested quite a few times on this forum already.
 
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fredda said:
I guess part of the question is if you use a maxed sib lets say
DPP 2.95
DPS 25

Will give the same TT return from one mob as using.

DPP 2.95
DPS 50

DPP will be the same, but cost to kill will be different because of regen. I think it has been tested quite a few times on this forum already.
Click to expand...

Yes, you will get the exact same return on both, but lose more on the 25 DPS one.
 
e-lite said:
Your possible loot is only based on the mob HP (stamina). It doesn't matter if you spend 17 ped or 170 ped to kill an Eomon Young, the actual loot you are able to get is the same. Hence DPP is crucial. There's a pretty good reason why the price tag is high on 3+ DPP weapons. It's usually because they are money makers.
Click to expand...

More or less agree with you on that. Discounting defensive costs, fap costs and regen (as I'm not quite sure how those would factor into the loot equation).

Anyway, on the topic of Eomon Young (5020 HP), I'm more or less willing to guess that it will loot...on average...roughly about 13 PEDs to 15 PEDs each (speaking in terms of TT value).

If it is possible to reduce the cost of killing (per eomon young) to a value that is very close to that...using "some unknown setup"...then you can continue hunting on that mob for as long as you want without having to worry about peds for your next run.

In other words, when hunting, my objective is more or less the same as Kikki Jikki's.

(I.E. to find, tweak and perfect your setup so much so that you can reduce your cost to kill to as close as possible to the average TT that the mob will loot.)
 
e-lite said:
Your possible loot is only based on the mob HP (stamina). It doesn't matter if you spend 17 ped or 170 ped to kill an Eomon Young, the actual loot you are able to get is the same. Hence DPP is crucial. There's a pretty good reason why the price tag is high on 3+ DPP weapons. It's usually because they are money makers.
Click to expand...

Yeap, it is more clear now.
I didn't made myself clear either.
 
e-lite said:
Your possible loot is only based on the mob HP (stamina). It doesn't matter if you spend 17 ped or 170 ped to kill an Eomon Young, the actual loot you are able to get is the same. Hence DPP is crucial. There's a pretty good reason why the price tag is high on 3+ DPP weapons. It's usually because they are money makers.
Click to expand...

I have a lot of painstakingly gathered information using both very high and very low eco weapons, and so do many other avatars, which prove this entirely wrong. DPP is crucial, yes, high dpp gets better results, yes, but half eco does not at all mean half overall return.
 
e-lite said:
Yes, you will get the exact same return on both, but lose more on the 25 DPS one.
Click to expand...

I strongly suggest that both of you go and do some actual testing and record your data. Not true at all.

To clarify your regen results in greater hp effectively on the mob, so thus a mob that regenerates 30% of its health will loot more than one that regenerates none. I'll leave the rest to your own discovery.
 
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Its in the human nature to try and simplify things, I think there is so many factors to it where cost to kill is most important longterm together with samplesize and time.......

My point is that all of you can be right or wrong at the same time :)

//Linz
 
Is there a precomputed Cost-2-Kill value for each mob? Most likely, no.
1. It would be terribly inefficient. After each adjustment or nerf u have to recalculate all those static values for each and evey mob and maturity. It's so much easier to set up a system that keeps track how much HP was actually taken out, and forget about the whole problem forever.
2. Mob HP is not static. Most mobs have regen and regen is included in loot calculations (only to a certain degree but still). Means static HP values can't be used in the system.
[SUB]Some ppl still haven't picked up that part about regen. There was several tests, some can be found on this forum.
Besides, think about it this way - adding "extra HP" to the mob increases not only ammo spent and weapon decay but also time to kill, which in turn translates into extra armor decay n extra heals.
Now, most ppl agree - defensive costs are never compensated. If so, every extra pec spent there goes straight into the oblivion (well, MA's pocket actually). There's no need for MA to punish us for the same thing twice, 1st for increased defensive cost and then for increased offensive cost as well. MA would happily do that probably, but it would create unreasonably big imbalance.[/SUB]

This makes "HP-taken-out" most likely base value for loot calculations. Which means, DPP matters.
I also prefer to believe there's certain compensation mechanisms in the game. However, they are not significant enough to change the basic principle ("DPP matters!").
 
hottygurl said:
I have a lot of painstakingly gathered information using both very high and very low eco weapons, and so do many other avatars, which prove this entirely wrong. DPP is crucial, yes, high dpp gets better results, yes, but half eco does not at all mean half overall return.
Click to expand...

Which I have never claimed either. You get the SAME return, but at a higher cost, which means less profit or more loss.
 
hottygurl said:
I strongly suggest that both of you go and do some actual testing and record your data. Not true at all.

To clarify your regen results in greater hp effectively on the mob, so thus a mob that regenerates 30% of its health will loot more than one that regenerates none. I'll leave the rest to your own discovery.
Click to expand...

I have tested that for many MANY years, it has always been the same conclusion. DPP and DPS is the key to everything.
 
Why do the eco-faithful even bother to convince the non-believers? The more of the latter hunt non-eco, the richer the lootpool for the former :)
 
Svarog said:
Why do the eco-faithful even bother to convince the non-believers? The more of the latter hunt non-eco, the richer the lootpool for the former :)
Click to expand...

Oh shit. Yeah that is right people, DPP doesn't matter, in fact, the less ECO weapon you use, the more you HOF :yup:
 
i will quote what i wrote in another thread

Magnus Mag said:
about changing HA. there are other examples...they introduced L, before that if you wanted better dmg than opalo+amp you had to use unmaxed sib..
i think they do such things because for them it doesn't matter, because they get their cut no matter how eco the peds are cycled....

say there are two ppl killink 1k hp mobs
each of them kill 100 of them
one has eco of 2 other 3 dmg/pec
so 2eco guy cycles 500ped 3eco guy 333 ped->888 ped cycled..system pays back 90% so ~800 ped gets payed back..
both get 400 ped out of it..
system always gets ~90 ped

back in the days when i hunted argo at old twins with opalo+a105 there were ppl hunting them with unmaxed maddoxIV+amp in angel...
guess what i could cycle 200 ped for 2 weeks...
if you had maxed imk2 those days you were the most eco guy around, thats why it was worth like 250k or sth..
nowadays it is not difficult to be eco and all do it, thats why eco doesn't give you such a huge advantage than before..
but my point is, i think it makes no difference for MA or PP...

i would also like to point out that my theory of tt_in-tax=tt_out would be very safe towards exploits...MA can't lose money that way...
after the thing with triple bombing where you perhaps got amped drop free ppl asked "do they steal money from MA" and they said after hotfix "we assure you that the overall economy was not affected" for me this means that MA got their share but other miners paid for those amped drops..
Click to expand...


so yea i think good dpp matters but only if there are people with lower eco around...
i think the wasted ped with "low eco" gear gets payed back..but payed back in general not to the person using that bad eco gear...if you would hunt alone with 1 dpp weapon you would still get the "90%" or whatever average return..
 
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KijkkiJikki said:
Well the key assumption there is that the amount you get back factors in your offensive cost to kill. This is also known as the "eco doesn't matter" loot theory. So if you make that assumption then really all u want to focus on is
- stay within your budget
- minimise defense costs (say though use of a good fapper, or high dps).

Having said that, killing cheaply does mean u get more mobs killed for ur peds so a greater chance of a stable return for a given budget.

Personally I don't think the original assumption is warranted. I believe that loot depends on the amount of damage done (taking into account complicating factors such as overkill and regeneration). With this loot theory, eco definitely does matter and good dpp is one way to minimise costs. However I don't think I can prove my assumption is correct. It is however consistent with my experience and with what MA has said in its developer notes.
Click to expand...

When has MA ever said anything to support this theory? (ie: More Damage in = More Loot out, so regeneration doesn't matter, and on a certain level, DPS doesn't matter either.)

Also what Linzey said is true. It is hard for most people to accept that they will never know the answer, so we all pick the theory we are most comfortable with and spread it around like the gospel.
 
ZPF said:
When has MA ever said anything to support this theory? (ie: More Damage in = More Loot out, so regeneration doesn't matter, and on a certain level, DPS doesn't matter either.)

Also what Linzey said is true. It is hard for most people to accept that they will never know the answer, so we all pick the theory we are most comfortable with and spread it around like the gospel.
Click to expand...

Well they have said that higher efficiency yields higher average return over time.
 
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