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I wasn't going to complain... But it is LONG overdue...

Nameloc said:
So you need 2 thousand dollars to spend in game, in order to not "go broke" but you will end up losing a large percentage of that money... aka why would anyone ever deposit???? :eyecrazy:
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If you want to ensure beyond any doubt that you get 85-95% TT return in the long run then yes you do, or else expect some really bad runs and some really good runs.

I said nothing about going broke, because unless you're breaking 100% returns after markup, without paid markup for guns, you will go broke in the long run, it's a matter of fact and numbers. If you can't break the TT return in the long run with markup you will lose. 100 out of 100 times.

So either hunt within your budget, or depo more to hunt within your budget, or be prepared for some 70-75% TT returns week by week and accept that that is the norm. You will never TT profit in this game, so stop expecting your money to last if you won't hunt within your budget and sell loot as to markup for the 10% you're losing.
 
Rocket192 said:
If you want to ensure beyond any doubt that you get 85-95% TT return in the long run then yes you do, or else expect some really bad runs and some really good runs.

I said nothing about going broke, because unless you're breaking 100% returns after markup, without paid markup for guns, you will go broke in the long run, it's a matter of fact and numbers. If you can't break the TT return in the long run with markup you will lose. 100 out of 100 times.

So either hunt within your budget, or depo more to hunt within your budget, or be prepared for some 70-75% TT returns week by week and accept that that is the norm. You will never TT profit in this game, so stop expecting your money to last if you won't hunt within your budget and sell loot as to markup for the 10% you're losing.
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Just a small math problem that won't do this game any favors but.. if you have 90%TT, you need ~12% of markup not 10%.. since it would be 10% or 12% of markup on the 90% TT of loot. :(
 
Rocket192 said:
I said nothing about going broke
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Rocket192 said:
The likewise is true for mining, although I think you need enough ped to drop 3k bombs and not go broke
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Oh sorry I read this.

Rocket192 said:
So either hunt within your budget, or depo more to hunt within your budget, or be prepared for some 70-75% TT returns week by week and accept that that is the norm. You will never TT profit in this game, so stop expecting your money to last if you won't hunt within your budget and sell loot as to markup for the 10% you're losing.
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You will not recieve 90% TT average, your argument is that "if you spend enough money" then "eventually you might hit 90% return" and then you can sell for mark up to "break even" but so many are reporting bad hunting returns right now, only a fool would deposit.(I have had 45% return runs recently LOL)

Biggest ponzie scheme I have ever seen, deposit xx$ in order to make back 70% of it in game, then sell it at markup which makes another player lose $$ that was deposited, at the end of the day the players NEVER WIN which is just stupid.

I suppose those who deposit thousands, then buy items and resell them at a profit are the only people who make money and can withdrawl regularly, I really dislike this system, I wish the people depositing and using their ped would be able to make some profit but no way.
 
slither said:
When people say they're regularly getting returns as low as 10% it usually means they lack a basic understanding of maths. They'll get 1000ped ammo then later on trade in 700ped loot of for more ammo then again later they trade in 500ped loot for more ammo etc. then at the end of the day say they got a 10% return.
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This. Here's what I started doing.... Amp X + Gun Y = Z ammo Round ammo purchase up to the next 100ped. Stop hunting when amp loses it's mojo. No more blowing through half my loot before the hunt is over.

That extra ammo is to make the math cleaner for me and to ensure that I don't spend my loot before I even get to count it. Unfortunately, what I now hunt is pretty well loot nerfed and capped hard, so the loot sucks even when it doesn't but TT returns are at about 80-95% steadily. HOWEVER, I still see low runs in the 50% range but never any fantastic runs anymore.
 
Nameloc said:
Oh sorry I read this.



You will not recieve 90% TT average, your argument is that "if you spend enough money" then "eventually you might hit 90% return" and then you can sell for mark up to "break even" but so many are reporting bad hunting returns right now, only a fool would deposit.(I have had 45% return runs recently LOL)

Biggest ponzie scheme I have ever seen, deposit xx$ in order to make back 70% of it in game, then sell it at markup which makes another player lose $$ that was deposited, at the end of the day the players NEVER WIN which is just stupid.

I suppose those who deposit thousands, then buy items and resell them at a profit are the only people who make money and can withdrawl regularly, I really dislike this system, I wish the people depositing and using their ped would be able to make some profit but no way.
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That's not a ponzi scheme. In your same logic, you would conclude that a slot machine is a ponzi scheme. Neither is true.
 
We live in a capitalist world, entertainment costs money, this game is free to download and participate in. I know some games that have about a 6-month life expectancy yet you pay $60 for the game and another $50 for DLC in order to enjoy it. I'm fairly new convinced of you depo $110 every 6 months instead of buying some new AAA title to play you can have a decent time in this game.

Let's not forgot $60 games with $20-40 expansions and a $15/month fee as well.. All of that costs money.. And EU is arguably more diverse and has more depth than most of those games and costs you nothing to download and get in to.

If everyone could get their money's worth and withdraw what they put in, if not more, the MA would go broke and this game wouldn't exist. For the few who do profit and withdraw, many others lose.

If you have 45% TT returns now it will be compensated for in the future, or it was front loaded by a huge hof that you're now paying back. There is no conspiracy or mystical force that prevents every player from teachings ~90% in the long run. The math is good, it has to be, or else the game couldn't function as it has for over 10 years.
 
Ape Drape said:
HOWEVER, I still see low runs in the 50% range but never any fantastic runs anymore.
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I have noticed this and I know that Mindark apparently somewhere (that I have never seen) that the profession loot pools are separated but.. in the last few weeks, we've had 5-6 ATHs? Mostly were explosives except a large mining ath.. and the only thing that really changed was 1 or 2 people running explosives around the clock (not enough for 5-6 all time highs) and a large surge in box buying.. meaning more UA cycling.... and we don't see any hunting ATHs because that is pretty much the slowest turnover profession.... makes you wonder if these explosives are taking all the peds off the table and destroying the stability of the hunting TT returns... at least for the majority.
 
atomicstorm said:
That's not a ponzi scheme. In your same logic, you would conclude that a slot machine is a ponzi scheme. Neither is true.
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Ummm... what? When playing slots, at what point do you go to other slot machine players and try to take their money to make up for the losses you have accrued?

Because this is how this game WORKS, example: Player A spends xx$ hunting and makes 90% of it back in items, he then has to sell them to Player B at a markup in order to break even, player B also had to deposit to get his peds, so those peds go to player A and end up back in the hunting loot system, which is giving back less then what was spent. Ponzie scheme to me, it creates a situation where MA is always making bank and players rarely profit.

(This leads to a bad situation where people who have many CLDs could easily use that profit to trade and make more profit, then just withdrawl monthly and bleed the game dry, which is currently happening.)

Literally slot machines are nothing like this game, this is a MMO community.
 
With hunting this is the way I see it. Hunt within your means, shoot for maximum eco and sell at maximum markup, and keep on hunting as far as your monthly budget will take you. Eventually you will hit a big loot, maybe an ESI or a small HOF, who knows - and this will hopefully bring you into the green profit zone or at least break you even after all markups considered. And then you can pretty much consider all the skill gains to be free (though skills are worth shit at the moment).

And of course there will be outliers who see poor returns despite playing by all the rules, and others who see amazing returns despite being uneco. But this is ~usually~ just in the short term.

Since player turnover is quite high, the real "losers" will be the ones that depo a bunch, bitch about TT returns and then quit the game. The players that soldier through it and keep on cycling will reap the benefits of what these quitters have sowed. In this sense you could sort of allude it to a ponzi scheme. But it is in no way illegal or dishonest in its presentation.

Lets just hope MA doesn't introduce some asinine blueprint that destabilizes the economy and loot pool. But that will never happen :laugh::lolup:

:scratch2:

:eyecrazy:
 
Nameloc said:
Ummm... what? When playing slots, at what point do you go to other slot machine players and try to take their money to make up for the losses you have accrued?

Because this is how this game WORKS, example: Player A spends xx$ hunting and makes 90% of it back in items, he then has to sell them to Player B at a markup in order to break even, player B also had to deposit to get his peds, so those peds go to player A and end up back in the hunting loot system, which is giving back less then what was spent. Ponzie scheme to me, it creates a situation where MA is always making bank and players rarely profit.

(This leads to a bad situation where people who have many CLDs could easily use that profit to trade and make more profit, then just withdrawl monthly and bleed the game dry, which is currently happening.)

Literally slot machines are nothing like this game, this is a MMO community.
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That again isn't the definition of a ponzi scheme. You might not like the system, but it is not a "ponzi".
 
atomicstorm said:
That again isn't the definition of a ponzi scheme. You might not like the system, but it is not a "ponzi".
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The person hunting makes the least, the trader makes more, and MA makes the most.

If you ever withdrawl the money comes direclty from MA...

"A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned by the operator."

Please explain my mistake and don't just say "it isnt a ponzie" how about a complete sentence with some nice logic to it?

Basically you think that MA is paying out of pocket and not out of profit???? This is not true especially with how long withdrawls take, many people on these forums believe MA waits to pay withdrawls until the profit comes in from new depositers, which is the exact definition of a ponzie scheme.
 
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Nameloc said:
The person hunting makes the least, the trader makes more, and MA makes the most.

If you ever withdrawl the money comes direclty from MA...

"A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned by the operator."

Please explain my mistake and don't just say "it isnt a ponzie" how about a complete sentence with some nice logic to it?

Basically you think that MA is paying out of pocket and not out of profit???? This is not true especially with how long withdrawls take, many people on these forums believe MA waits to pay withdrawls until the profit comes in from new depositers, which is the exact definition of a ponzie scheme.
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That definition doesn't apply because you get something in return.. You're not employee of mindark, nor are you selling to others the services/goods they supply you. This is a game, you play for entertainment, and you pay for entertainment.

You can place a dollar value on entertainment, so the logic doesn't follow.
 
Rocket192 said:
That definition doesn't apply because you get something in return.. You're not employee of mindark, nor are you selling to others the services/goods they supply you. This is a game, you play for entertainment, and you pay for entertainment.

You can place a dollar value on entertainment, so the logic doesn't follow.
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But you pay MA $$$ to deposit, then you get items from MA that you DO SELL to other players... you obviously just don't want to admit you are wrong and thats fine with me sir, I will just give up trying to convince you otherwise, sorry for the wasted space in this thread.

I don't hate entropia at all, I do however think many of the players are willingly blind to the system they play in, maybe because if they opened their eyes they would feel silly for depositing. I am willing to admit I was a fool and deposited, I only put in an amount I was 100% ready to lose, so maybe thats why I can admit I made a mistake, where others have deposited so much they have to hold on to their "integrity" and try to claim the game is something that it is not.
 
Nameloc said:
But you pay MA $$$ to deposit, then you get items from MA that you DO SELL to other players... you obviously just don't want to admit you are wrong and thats fine with me sir, I will just give up trying to convince you otherwise, sorry for the wasted space in this thread.

I don't hate entropia at all, I do however think many of the players are willingly blind to the system they play in, because if they opened their eyes they would feel silly for depositing. I am willing to admit I was a fool and deposited, I only put in an amount I was 100% ready to lose, so maybe thats why I can admit I made a mistake, where others have deposited so much they have to hold on to their "integrity" and try to claim the game is something that it is not.
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It's not a "scheme". Many people look at it as a casino and there's nothing wrong with that.

However to call it a "scheme" would imply MA is somehow being dishonest. They are for the most part very straightforward about how Entropia works.
 
Nameloc said:
Basically you think that MA is paying out of pocket and not out of profit???? This is not true especially with how long withdrawls take, many people on these forums believe MA waits to pay withdrawls until the profit comes in from new depositers, which is the exact definition of a ponzie scheme.
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You are making assumptions with no factual basis. You may THINK it is this way.. and perhaps it is.. but you or anyone else on this forum knows how their deposits/withdrawals occur.

I am not going to argue with you.. no one is going to change your mind anyway. This game is not a ponzi scheme. They have not represented themselves fraudulently like similarly in HYIPs. They never said you could make millions or suggested they would pay you 15% interest a month on all your deposited dollars. You have a platform full of separate entities (planets), whose rake is apparently 10%. Those are your parameters and your job to learn how to make a profit and not hope that it magically happens by some twisted form of the law of large numbers.

You also seem to think that the Swedish Gaming Authority would permit Mindark to continue to run as a ponzi scheme.. if it was in fact one. They've already reviewed their operations... their financial statements are annually audited and published. There are no secrets here.
 
Nameloc said:
But you pay MA $$$ to deposit, then you get items from MA that you DO SELL to other players... you obviously just don't want to admit you are wrong and thats fine with me sir, I will just give up trying to convince you otherwise, sorry for the wasted space in this thread.

I don't hate entropia at all, I do however think many of the players are willingly blind to the system they play in, maybe because if they opened their eyes they would feel silly for depositing. I am willing to admit I was a fool and deposited, I only put in an amount I was 100% ready to lose, so maybe thats why I can admit I made a mistake, where others have deposited so much they have to hold on to their "integrity" and try to claim the game is something that it is not.
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Why anyone would play this game who thought it was a ponzi scheme, beyond me.

P.S. you have no idea what a ponzi scheme is, if you think PE is one.



Rgds

Ace

EDIT: help with understanding ponzi schemes, have a good read..... https://www.moneysmart.gov.au/scams/investment-scams/ponzi-schemes
 
Interesting replies, Ace Flyster seems to think I knew all about the game before I played it?("Why play a game that you think is a ponzie")

I deposited an amount I was ready to lose / risk, and I learned how the game and loot systems operate. They operate in a way that you will spend hundreds a month if you wish to see your skills increase, you will not profit, yet most fan boys in this forum argue otherwise while posting no proof or hunting logs, and most of the logs at are posted are negative.

Again sorry for wasting space in this thread trying to convince someone. If there is no place for a differeing opinion on this forum then I will gladly leave and never return.

ZPF said:
It's not a "scheme". Many people look at it as a casino and there's nothing wrong with that.

However to call it a "scheme" would imply MA is somehow being dishonest. They are for the most part very straightforward about how Entropia works.
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This is a good point that I overlooked, I did use the word scheme once when quoting the definition, I suppose that is the one thing that doesn't fit to the definition, well done.
 
Nameloc said:
I deposited an amount I was ready to lose / risk, and I learned how the game and loot systems operate. They operate in a way that you will spend hundreds a month if you wish to see your skills increase, you will not profit, yet most fan boys in this forum argue otherwise while posting no proof or hunting logs, and most of the logs at are posted are negative.
.
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Snablesnot posted 5 hunting logs, dont make up things again and u know how system operate? haha. And saying hunters make the least... again check smilgs log (fyi most who profit big time not posting on pcf for others to see)
 
Nameloc said:
Again sorry for wasting space in this thread trying to convince someone. If there is no place for a differeing opinion on this forum then I will gladly leave and never return.
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People often confuse having a difference of opinion vs being right and wrong.

Just because you have an opinion does NOT make you right.

I have a friend that when someone points out to him he his wrong, then that person all of a sudden is arrogant and not allowing another opinion.

Just food for thought...(i have apologised when someone has pointed this out to me before.)


Rgds

Ace
 
Nameloc said:
I am sorry but you are saying that one person makes a profit then thats how the system works?? This is not true, in fact they are the exception to the rule.... You must truly have a limited scope/vision if you 100% belive we can all profit, in fact we all lose and a few exception may pop up...
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U only see what u want to see, not all can profit, but many can which contradicts basically everything u spammed the topic with for the past day
 
Nameloc said:
I am sorry but you are saying that one person makes a profit then thats how the system works?? This is not true, in fact they are the exception to the rule.... You must truly have a limited scope/vision if you 100% belive we can all profit, in fact we all lose and a few exception may pop up...

TLDR Many are losing and very few profit.


I never said I was right or wrong, I was simply trying to convince someone through logic and facts. I am not saying "I am right, I am infallable" I am just putting forth my opinions and using facts and logic to back them up, if someone disagrees I will see their point of view and try my best to understand it. Thats why I gave up trying to convince and appologized many posts ago...... can we drop this please ???
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You haven't said anything factual yet. Just perception.
 
Nameloc said:
I only see what I want to see? The logs in hunting forum say everything, you only have to read them and keep track of how many negative versus positive runs there are. More threads daily are poping up agreeing and pointing out the same thing as well.... but like you say "You only see what you want to see"

Might want to take a dose of your own opinion and think on it.
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None is popping up, i dont recall any logs with bad returns, all long term logs shows 90-102%. A few ppl posted having bad return for week month etc but none are long term and/or backed up with actual numbers and/or facts. Easy to find even 'noob' logs where ppl profit as almost newcomer
 
Nameloc said:
TLDR Many are losing and very few profit.[/B]


?
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Just like any casino...

If everyone (or even most players) could profit, MA would be finished. If loot was distributed more evenly (this was already fixed, so this would be the second time) the game would be less attractive to the heavy gamblers who are of course MA's favorite demographic.

It's not a fun thing to think about. Essentially, to profit in EU, we have to depend on the chronic stupidity and gambling habits of other players. The only other option is being wealthy enough to buy the most efficient gear and be the most competitive in your profession. Or of course, Trading and playing the economy to the best of your ability.
 
Piotr said:
None is popping up, i dont recall any logs with bad returns, all long term logs shows 90-102%. A few ppl posted having bad return for week month etc but none are long term and/or backed up with actual numbers and/or facts. Easy to find even 'noob' logs where ppl profit as almost newcomer
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or logs that show a small part of the puzzle.. IE. running conductors/springs/explosives crafting or mining on the side.. which all is part of the over all TT return.
 
Call it social Darwinism if you want.

The more intelligent and most well-equipped players will always profit off the incompetence and ignorance of the rest. That's why it's not "pure" gambling. Capitalism works for a reason. EU is a competition.
 
wait wait let me find it....where is it...



there u go..this is OLD..more numbers and bigger runs have been added lately and net TT return is still the same.. So far experimented on 7 different mobs.

Threads like yours kept us (yes i speak for more then myself) from hunting or playing for a loooooooooooooong time...i wonder how many players leave coz of false info..
 
Nameloc said:
"A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned by the operator."

Please explain my mistake and don't just say "it isnt a ponzie" how about a complete sentence with some nice logic to it?

Basically you think that MA is paying out of pocket and not out of profit???? This is not true especially with how long withdrawls take, many people on these forums believe MA waits to pay withdrawls until the profit comes in from new depositers, which is the exact definition of a ponzie scheme.
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Well...
How does a bank make money? In a nutshell, it borrows money out (and invests money into growing businesses, which is basically the same).
Now, where does a bank get those $$$ it gives out? From other ppl and businesses who bring it in as deposits.

All the money in the bank at any given moment - both it's own money (including it's profit) and the money that actually belongs to it's customers - is instantly given out to somebody else as a loan or investment as soon as it arrives. (Actually, all the money and then some... but lets keep it simple).

This, however, quite literally means the bank is an operator who pays returns to it's investors with all the money in it's disposal, including the money that came in 5 minutes ago from it's new investors.
Logic is simple, gotta keep the wheels rolling - money that doesn't make new money is dead money.

Apparently all the banks in the world are utilizing a ponzi scheme.
As banks are the foundation for the whole economy, it also means world economy is based on a ponzi scheme.


In a word, sleep tight it's all under control! :smoke:
 
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