Question: Do We Need More Crafted Guns?

Rocket192

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Sean Rocket Connors
Question says it all... Could we use some new somewhat common gun/weapon bps for (L) guns?

Obviously similar in eco and SIB to the new prion series would be cool. I've just noticed a severe shortage of lvl 15-30 guns outside of the 130%markup range. Some new bps would definitely do some good for hunters of my caliber, and I'd actually use the resources I mine for.

Just looking to get some input.
 
Not sure what you're looking at but you can get weapons of any level at close to TT now. If not then there are dozens of ELM guns on auction for 5 PED apiece, which works out as good or better than a regular gun at 101%.

As with most things, MA have flooded the market to ridiculous extremes and destroyed the market completely.

There's also a problem with crafted guns whereby the newer models require ludicrous amounts of materials as crafting ingredients - like 8-10 different ingredients, half of which are crafted or refined components that also need 8-10 different ingredients to create - so no-one ever makes them.

It all stems from stupid people who don't think through the long-term consequences of their ideas making idiotic suggestions to MA, who seem have to got it into their head that it's a good idea to follow the vocal minority who spend more time coming up with bullshit on forums than playing the game, rather than the small number of people who have thought about it properly and who have genuinely good ideas for improving things.
 
Not sure what you're looking at but you can get weapons of any level at close to TT now. If not then there are dozens of ELM guns on auction for 5 PED apiece, which works out as good or better than a regular gun at 101%.

As with most things, MA have flooded the market to ridiculous extremes and destroyed the market completely.

There's also a problem with crafted guns whereby the newer models require ludicrous amounts of materials as crafting ingredients - like 8-10 different ingredients, half of which are crafted or refined components that also need 8-10 different ingredients to create - so no-one ever makes them.

It all stems from stupid people who don't think through the long-term consequences of their ideas making idiotic suggestions to MA, who seem have to got it into their head that it's a good idea to follow the vocal minority who spend more time coming up with bullshit on forums than playing the game, rather than the small number of people who have thought about it properly and who have genuinely good ideas for improving things.

I must suck at browsing the auction then, because I agree with OP. I'm in my 30s now and I have trouble finding appropriate BLP weapons. Everything on the auction I'm either not yet maxed with or the level is too low and I want something stronger that I'm still maxed with. Or the MU is too damn high which makes the dmg/pec laughable. It would be nice if crafting could fill the gaps.

Agree with OP on another thing as well, crafted "piron-type" guns would be great as they have high MU so crafters/miners could actually start seeing a profit. I looted a piron plp-32 the other day, put it on auction on Calypso and I noticed it was the ONLY one on the entire Calypso auction. How many other options are there for a level 37 laser pistoleer?
 
Not sure what you're looking at but you can get weapons of any level at close to TT now. If not then there are dozens of ELM guns on auction for 5 PED apiece, which works out as good or better than a regular gun at 101%.

I'm not sure how you work out ELM guns as equal to 101%...

Last I checked the average cost for those guns is between 36k% and 50k% markup... and TT returns hunting are TT in = 90% of TT out correct? So that means I'm automatically losing the elm gun markup unless they have some insane 5dpp eco... which last I checked they don't.

In a profession where I'm likely to average 104-106% markup at best, why would I want to purchase a gun for 30-40 ped markup? whether is a 125% isis llc 20 or a 38k% kallous elm gun.

Even better yet, before the "buy UL SIB" argument comes into play i'm just going to say no.. TT+5000 or even more for UL SIB in the 20-30lvl skill range is ridiculous.
 
All L guns and armor should be eliminated from the hunting loot pool and replaced by control components for said crafting.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to atomicstorm again.

Hunting markups would go up a few percent.. they might even be able to profit, and crafters would have a market for their goods
 
there are already loads of bps for loads of weapons.. however its retarded to click these bps because the guns would never sell at a price the crafter can break even at. the same goes for armor. and nanobots. and clothes. and heal kits (ur125 aside although i have no idea if the ppl clicking those break even).

oleg is right, its retarded to craft if there are as-good or cheaper alternatives available from hunting loot.
 
You would think that if such guns existed they could be easy to break even with considering the average markup of resources is below 10% and residue is practically free.. And most of the guns in the range we're retaking about sell for 115-135% on auction.

And yeah "better" is the key word here.. Jesters and L bp L guns don't come near the 2.85-2.9dpp that looted guns have in that skill range.
 
it's always been silly to have stuff in hunting or mining loot that is in direct competition with stuff that can be crafted since it lowers demand for crafting.

However, this is the way this game's been run since day 1 more or less. Hunters demanded the items in loot more at times when they wanted to save a buck or two on markup and not pay the crafters. I think that the L and sib stuff may have started as one fix to that, but that fix didn't last long since Mindark kept introducing more and more items, most of which went in to hunting loots.

Nowadays that the nanocubes and explosive crafting is happening so much the same folks that made those demands for more and more items in hunting loot daily complain on the forums that markup on things is gone and that the "economy is broken," when in fact the economy is no more broken than it ever has been, the crafters just aren't being forced to craft bull shit items that no one will ever buy, paying crazy markup on each component as they did in ancient days.

Requests have been made to increase demand in crafted goods for many, many, many years. Go read the wishlist section for a while. Requests have been made to make crafted items with looted equivalents better than the looted alternatives for many many years, but no one did anything about it, or they did something that completely went in the opposite direction (like creating sib, which no one really asked for before hand, creating L stuff, which no one really asked for much before hand, creating items that cannot be sold to other avatars or the tt so that they could have good stats or be freebies, which no one really asked for too much before hand - even if people have been asking for "better loots" forever, without really defining what they mean exactly too much). Request have been made to increase the demand of shops, which crafters usually end up running most of the time, vs the auction - more stuff that's fallen on deaf ears (ok, Mindark once admitted that a shop directory would be nice to do someday, but that it's one of the lowest things on their priority and "to do" list even though it keeps getting asked for over and over through the years)

Imho, any useful tool, weapon, etc. should be crafted so as to increase the demand for those items, and any components used to create those items should be found in loot. Problem is that isn't the direction that this game ever went. At one point in time it sort of started to happen with a cycle between miners and crafters, but even that is a bit broken now.

Don't expect people to craft stuff if they can't sell it after a few runs. For many, many years the loot managing team's needed to do something to fix the economy of the game, but every time they take any action they keep making it worse in some ways usually. It'd be nice if that trend stopped, but I wouldn't count on that happening ever since you are dealing with Mindark. Certain planet partners could start the process by eliminating some items from being used on their planets, but as soon as that happens expect a flood of complaints from those who own the unbalanced items, etc. You can't fix the problem from the bottom up. It's a problem that should have been fixed from the top down, but never has been, and probably never will be. That's why a lot of blueprints exist, but most of them are currently not much better than off-brand virtual toilet paper as they can and will tear your up ass up if you try to use them.

Some Planet Partners HAVE tried to help the problem a little by creating awesome crafted weapons, etc. However, Mindark kept those planets from getting far with their plans by littering every planet's crafting loots with "universal" i.e. Calypso crap in loot. If someone goes to a non-Calypso planet to craft they don't want thousands of Calypso blueprints or Welding Wire Blueprints showing up in their loot window, but that's what happens the way that things are set up today, right now. The 'fix' from the bottom up that the PPs tried didn't work since Mindark's balancing team didn't think about what they were doing and the consequences of those actions.

Maybe the move to put L items in the TT instead of UL is one possible start to reverse the trend.... but that won't work too well UNLESS Mindark makes it so each avatar can ONLY buy one of those L items from any TT in game before they have to start looking to crafted alternatives... once the L item from TT breaks, that's it, no more of that particular item can be purchased from TT... and all of those tt items will be soul bound so unable to be traded. No more TT version of whatever after you burned through that L item from the TT.

just like at one point in time you could only sweat so many times before that was it, you reached the cap.

After that you have to start looking to auction. It'd irritate quite a few folks if that happened. Hell, maybe even go a step or two further and make some of the other stuff in the TT go away too... make the implant inserter in the TT become L and be a crafted item. Remove probes and ammo from TT and make them crafted just like explosives are right now. People keep asking for more uses for blazers, novas, and sweat. There you go - ingredients for ammo and probes.

Edit:
Thinking about this a bit more... instead of removing ammo from TT, better option might be to change it so that blp and laser cells are crafted using one nanocube instead of the two that the explosives require. ;) :) That will make them a bit cheaper to craft, but they'll still be crafted.
 
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I still don't understand MA's asinine decision to make hunting guns 2.95 dpp and crafted weapons 2.85 dpp.

Pretty much no crafted weapons at TT price beat looted weapons at the MU they sell for.
 
I still don't understand MA's asinine decision to make hunting guns 2.95 dpp and crafted weapons 2.85 dpp.

Pretty much no crafted weapons at TT price beat looted weapons at the MU they sell for.

Mastermesh has a trailer-full of insightful, good comments, but this is probably the gist of what the problem is. Demand is always a problem, and even when demand is good people will still say it could be better.
 
Adding new bps isn't really going to do anything. Crafter prices (if the crafter wants to stay in business) are based on cost to craft and these are almost always going to be higher than the prices hunters are prepared to sell at.

It used to be that crafted goods offered a reliability of supply that hunters couldn't match and people would pay a little extra to get the gun when they wanted it. But these days, the volume of weapon drops is much higher so its very easy to source weapons in your level from those looted from mobs.

The proliferation of events exacerbates the issue with bulk drops of weapons being very common.

So its more difficult for crafters to sell and there is a flow on impact to their suppliers. For me that is miners. Arkadian miners will probably have noticed I am buying less these last few months. As hunter I enjoy looting weapons but when I see that many of them are almost TT food I do wince. I can see that I am not able to sell for mu and also that my crafting sales are impacted.

So I think that MA needs to take yet another look at the loot balance and tweak back those weapon drops a bit. I can understand where 5$ is coming from in suggesting they are removed altogether but I think that would kill the fun factor for hunters.
 
that would kill the fun factor for hunters.

There's the rub though. Guns are not dropping like rain, in fact they almost seem more rare then they used to be.

The problem is MA has re balanced them so much that they last forever now. Take a look at the new gen Omegaton Igni L1100E (L) and the old gen Isis HL14 (L). The Igni has nearly half the decay. This holds true for almost every weapon and in the case of pirons and such its much worse. Hunters are MA's bread and butter, so instead of pissing off most of them by halving their items loots, they instead chose to screw crafters.

I guess I can't blame them too much, they listened to the majority. The majority wanted longer lasting cheaper more eco guns. It just happened to be a case where listening to your customer base was a terrible idea.
 
Last set of that level guns, collected dust in my shop for around 4 month, then I took it out, TTed it to free the PED. Have seen several other shops holding such crafted weapons, for nearly as long as my own shop :D

Go through the Malls and you find this weapons!

Offering that at auction is waste of PED.
For 1-2 PED MU the risk, not to sell it is just to high.
Many returned to me unsold when I tried to sell through auction, so I offered it at shop only, but as said, nobody buying it at shop too (+ 1 PED LOL)

So please NO not more BPs for more useless weapons to craft.

And one more to say:

Where is that damn generic component drops, then we can make a lot more weapons for any level.
Aspis anybody ? Well, no resource to craft it :D
 
There's the rub though. Guns are not dropping like rain, in fact they almost seem more rare then they used to be.
.

I do most of my hunting on Arkadia and I find I can often loot 6 guns or more in an hour's hunting. If I am grinding I end up with a huge backlog of weapons to sell over an extended period or I TT them and take the loss. In any case it looks like the market is saturated for guns at that level.

It depends on the mob being hunted of course.

This is all since the VU when a new batch of weapons were added accross all planets. (S&B for Arkadia, ISIS and others for Caly, don't know the details for other planets). From what I could tell the names were changed for each planet but the stats were identical. Clearly a MA initiative.

During the last migration on Calypso I looted around 20 ISIS 240 RECON ELM (sorry if I got the name slightly wrong) in two days of hunting Eomon. I was able to sell all of those on auction over a period of several weeks. I also did the LT 30k killpoint mission and for around 5 minutes every hour I would loot 2 to 6 low level guns a few of which I was able to sell.

So while I don't dispute that the decay rate might be a problem, I stand by my assertion that the drop rate has increased and is currently too high.
 
I do most of my hunting on Arkadia and I find I can often loot 6 guns or more in an hour's hunting. If I am grinding I end up with a huge backlog of weapons to sell over an extended period or I TT them and take the loss. In any case it looks like the market is saturated for guns at that level.

It depends on the mob being hunted of course.

This is all since the VU when a new batch of weapons were added accross all planets. (S&B for Arkadia, ISIS and others for Caly, don't know the details for other planets). From what I could tell the names were changed for each planet but the stats were identical. Clearly a MA initiative.

During the last migration on Calypso I looted around 20 ISIS 240 RECON ELM (sorry if I got the name slightly wrong) in two days of hunting Eomon. I was able to sell all of those on auction over a period of several weeks. I also did the LT 30k killpoint mission and for around 5 minutes every hour I would loot 2 to 6 low level guns a few of which I was able to sell.

So while I don't dispute that the decay rate might be a problem, I stand by my assertion that the drop rate has increased and is currently too high.

Hunting on Calypso I have gone 5-10 hours without a single gun drop on multiple occasions. However on Arkadia I got one (just one) in my first hour on Riptors.

Don't know what you're hunting that gives you 6 every hour, though. Probably not something we low level hunters can handle/kill as quickly as you.
 
Guns are not dropping like rain
Guns are dropped like a rain, therefore no reason to manufacture any gun, which nobody will buy (because crafted guns are like plasticine (more decay, less ammo), and looted are better in eco).

I agree with the idea to remove all limited guns from the loot, as it did on Arkadia with limited armor.
Another option - to rebalance a crafted guns, they must be better (at least in durability and eco) than the dropped in the loot.
 
We do need weapons for this level with decent markup

I am not sure what is the solution for this, but I agree. I also cannot find laser weapons for this level at decent markup. I'm lvl 29 in laser hit and very often I don't hunt due to lack of weapons.
If someone can point out what are those weapons (limited) with decent dpp (let's say 2.9) and decent markup (let's say max 10%) for this level, I would appreciate it.
Or maybe there are unlimited guns for this which don't sell for hundreds of $
Kind regards,
III Dusk MMM
 
I am not sure what is the solution for this, but I agree. I also cannot find laser weapons for this level at decent markup. I'm lvl 29 in laser hit and very often I don't hunt due to lack of weapons.
If someone can point out what are those weapons (limited) with decent dpp (let's say 2.9) and decent markup (let's say max 10%) for this level, I would appreciate it.
Or maybe there are unlimited guns for this which don't sell for hundreds of $
Kind regards,
III Dusk MMM

Exactly this. I think the best gun I could find @ level 30 BLP Sniper was the PBR 27 or something, and even with a beast amp I could not crack 2.9 eco. I simply don't hunt anymore. It's not worth it with these shitty eco options and I'm not about to drop thousands on an UL Gun that is guaranteed to lose value over time.

I only hunt when I have enough daily tokens saved up for a CDF gun :wtg:

But hey, I shouldn't be complaining. The situation is WAY worse for people trying to skill up melee. Most of the (L) shortblades/longblades drop BELOW 2.8 dpp on their current markups :laugh:
 
I think MA doesn't actually care about the economy. Their only concern is for people to hunt more, because a lot of decay is generated this way. Mining and crafting are discouraged. In their mind, the way to accomplish this is saturate the market with guns so that nobody has an excuse NOT to hunt. Look at explosives, these BPs were introduced to reduce the incentive to mine... same thing with reducing the loot multipliers... dramatically reduce the demand for mining amps. Shrapnel was introduced to get people to roll more of their loot directly back into hunting.

I suspect the people currently in control at MA view crafting, mining, and all other non-hunting professions are pesky relics of the past. What they don't understand, which we do understand, of course, is that they're destroying the core of what people love about the game, which is the interconnectedness of the all professions.

When was the last time there was a crafting or mining event on Caly?
 
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Hunting on Calypso I have gone 5-10 hours without a single gun drop on multiple occasions. However on Arkadia I got one (just one) in my first hour on Riptors.

Don't know what you're hunting that gives you 6 every hour, though. Probably not something we low level hunters can handle/kill as quickly as you.

That example was Wombana as I am grinding them for the smuggler mission. They drop Ardenner 10, 16 and pbp-27. They aren't high level but my dps is reasonably good so I am killing them fairly quickly. Not sure of the exact numbers but 10k killpoints takes me around 3 hours. I accept that a low lvl player would kill less and so loot less.

But that is not the only mob where I get regular weapon drops. On caly I am working my way through the feffoid 10k mission as well as the occasional armax run and I get weapon drops most runs, as well as the occasional martial or Tbird L armour part. Back when I did the 10k corn mission I did most of it on the youngs at treasure island and I mostly was able to stick to using the guns I looted during the mission.
 
I'd rather UL guns were given back some utility for skilling again.
 
Exactly this. I think the best gun I could find @ level 30 BLP Sniper was the PBR 27 or something, and even with a beast amp I could not crack 2.9 eco. I simply don't hunt anymore. It's not worth it with these shitty eco options and I'm not about to drop thousands on an UL Gun that is guaranteed to lose value over time.

I only hunt when I have enough daily tokens saved up for a CDF gun :wtg:

But hey, I shouldn't be complaining. The situation is WAY worse for people trying to skill up melee. Most of the (L) shortblades/longblades drop BELOW 2.8 dpp on their current markups :laugh:

I think many players expectations are a little high when it comes to dpp. I only have one weapon that breaks 2.9 and its UL and yes its dropped in resale value since I bought it. 2.8 dpp is not shitty. its just not awesome.
 
...
There's also a problem with crafted guns whereby the newer models require ludicrous amounts of materials as crafting ingredients - like 8-10 different ingredients, half of which are crafted or refined components that also need 8-10 different ingredients to create - so no-one ever makes them.
...

I dont think that the large amount of materials is such a big deal. Sure it would be easier to craft with less crafting ingredients, but if the gun still dont sell in the end, it wouldnt change anything.

All L guns and armor should be eliminated from the hunting loot pool and replaced by control components for said crafting.

Agree on that. I think that this could help to improve crafting and with it the overall economy.
Thought of it myself already, that maybe instead of dropping guns some new crafting type could be dropped. Like "weapon main 10", 20 up to 100 or whatever. Where the number in the end tells you what maximum lvl. it could be used for. So "weapon main 10" could be used for guns up to a sib lvl. of 10, while the higher ones like 100 can used for guns up to lvl. 100 but also for the low ones. However I am not sure if that is possible atm with the craftingsystem.

And to make it dynamic let us craft different weapon parts and then each hunter can attach them to a complete gun that will suite his needings. (Also crafting skills might be needed to put the parts together)

For example:
Weapon Main (base stats):
- Main #1
*TT in PED: 40
*Decay: x
*Range: 20
*Attack: 20
*SIB: 5
*DMG: 30
- ....

Weapon Magazin
- Magazine #1
*TT: 10
*Decay: x
*Attack: +10%
*Damage: +10%

- Magazine #2
*TT: 20
*Decay: x
*Attack: +40%
*Damage: -20%

- Magazine #3
*TT: 40
*Decay: x
*Attack: +30%
*Damage: +30%
*SIB: +30%

.....
and so one, I think you got the point of it. Of course a lot of work needed to get it balanced, but the variance of it could be huge.

~Skorp
 
ISome people say it won't make a difference, crafting guns is too expensive markup-wise and they'll never sell..

1) I've done some research on bps for crafted guns in the level range in referring to.. Average cost in markup materials is just under 110% for most guns, dipping as low as 105% and as high as 126%. If the crafted guns had the same decay rates and dpp as looted guns then they could sell, and crafters could do well, considering most guns between 15-30lvl sib sell for 115-135%.

Others say that the problem is that too many guns drop in loot

2) if this was the problem then I shouldn't have any troubles finding a gun within my level for below 120% markup right? Well guess what, I do.. And they're far and few between.

Solutions:

$5 says remove all L guns and replace with generic resource to craft guns, with new bps that don't require 18385 different materials this could work.
This one wins, by far, as it nearly nullifies the problem with mining markups, hunting markups, and lack of crafters.

Drop more guns, a lot more, to the point of over saturation.
This would work too, and would drop the markups of those 130% guns to 110% real fast, but doesn't have the benefit of aiding crafters, and might exacerbate the current problem.

Make crafted guns have same/better Eco/decay as looted guns.
This could work, as there would be incentives to choose the crafted guns over looted guns for hunting, which could lower the markups of looted guns while giving hunters some markup to go after in crafting.
 
This is impossible almost for all crafted guns. Did you seen any BP for crafted weapons? :)

I know I don't have knowledge about guns BP. I didn't say I do. I also said that i don't know what is the solution for having better dpp weapons at good prices for arround level 30. I got your message. This is not possible through crafted weapons.
However, I wonder how much expected loss in percentage to predict while hunting mobs suitable for this level with 20 to 30 % markup for a decent gun. At this level mobs don't have extraordinary markup for their stuff and combining this with a high markup for guns it doesn't look too good.
Nevertheless people buy guns even with this markup. Many times I do it too because I have to stop hunting or move on at this price till things will get better. I hope...
 
ISome people say it won't make a difference, crafting guns is too expensive markup-wise and they'll never sell..

1) I've done some research on bps for crafted guns in the level range in referring to.. Average cost in markup materials is just under 110% for most guns, dipping as low as 105% and as high as 126%. If the crafted guns had the same decay rates and dpp as looted guns then they could sell, and crafters could do well, considering most guns between 15-30lvl sib sell for 115-135%.
.

But how much crafting have you actually done? It's not as simple as the average mu of ingrediants. What's the average number of clicks per success? What is the average TT value of the crafted item compared to TT used? How much did the bp cost? Crafters would generally sell at lower prices if they could still profit.
 
We need tons of new crafted items with medium and good eco in all ranges. This would drive up the materials markup. Some current items need their stats changed to make them more or less desirable. Tweaking system in order to increase the average markup on everything should be one of MA primary goals.
Seriously name one MMO that never changes item stats.
 
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