What if MA made the loot formulae public? preconditions for mainstream

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If MA made all loot formulae public what would happen? (plus made public how they operate?)

* would there be fewer conspiracy theories?
* could the game then go mainstream?


What are the preconditions for this game going mainstream?
>Reduced cost to play?
>Alternative or new gameplay dynamics that don't include any loot formulae? So if we have other things to do how would MA make a profit from those other activities?


Sounds like a complete overhaul of the game :) so how long would it take MA to do this?
 
Public formula= game dying from exploits which are leaving regular players no loot to get at all.

Easy example:
Loot equals : (tt spent)+(location or time or direction faced or whatever)*90%. As soon as we would know what time to loot something nice, we would change to higher dps mob, gun, item, mining amp and grab the loot pool. So if you have LVL13 amp you can easiliy just pick up all good loots without giving anything back at all.

For me it would be good enough if MA said : "Payout rate is fixed at 90%, which means for every ped deposited 90pecs are being added to the loot pool"
 
For alternative - selling consumables, buffs, decorations etc in web shop bring money to many games.
For public loot formula - it mean you will know that you dont have any chance to loot imk2, mm, mod fap and similar. Also it mean you will know probability to get hof or other items with good MU.
In the end it mean no big incentives for gamblers so subscription game and a lot lower cost to play or end of game.
 
fair comment.

To avoid that they could make the formula more unspecific.....i.e. avoid hacks by making loot more general and not specific to anything to take advantage of


In the end it mean no big incentives for gamblers so subscription game and a lot lower cost to play or end of game.
This wouldn't be true if there were other things to do in the game.
 
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Should probably lose some players, mostly those who think you can loot stuff easily. ;)
The reason why MA staff can play, and also why they can't compensate lost loot at
certain occaisons, is that you can't predict loot to 100%, which means that whatever you
do you will still be able to miss that really good one.
On the other hand, (way more) people should learn when to do what and when they shouldn't
do it.... :silly2:
 
Public formula= game dying from exploits which are leaving regular players no loot to get at all.

Extreme case being Monria when it was launched...

But there are things that should be clarified.

For instance how loot is calculated for regen mobs, and what happens is someone else arrives when HP is halfway down and start to shoot with a fast weapon.
 
If MA made all loot formulae public what would happen? (plus made public how they operate?)

* would there be fewer conspiracy theories?
* could the game then go mainstream?


What are the preconditions for this game going mainstream?
>Reduced cost to play?
>Alternative or new gameplay dynamics that don't include any loot formulae? So if we have other things to do how would MA make a profit from those other activities?


Sounds like a complete overhaul of the game :) so how long would it take MA to do this?

In my opinion there is no need to tell everyone how thew system works, the moment everyone knows it and enough people try to take advantage of it it will all randomize again anyways - a big part of that formular is based on player dynamics and there is only so much you can do to tip the chances in your favour.

The much more important question is, what could mindark do to reduce the loss of individuals and make the game more mainstream. As i see it they need at some point to work on profiting from a much smaller share to allow the game to impress and keep a wider audience.
This could be accomplished by allowing two diferent game modes, a switch that can be chosen by hunters/miners like the qty/quality slider for crafters that allows a player to gain instant returns of up to 95% in exchange for a heavily reduced chance to global/hof/ath.
If there was a mechanic in place that assures players to earn back up to 95% of their expenses immediatly then they would ran at far less risk to loose huge amounts in short timeframes.
In effect that would mean if i spent 10 ped in ammo and decay to kill a mob with the slider all the way towards 'qty' then the worst loot from that mob should have a tt value of 9.5 ped but my chance to score globals/hofs would be near zero and the chance to loot rare items could also be reduced.
This could be a hunting mode for grinders who work on skills/missions and collecting crafting components - who like to play lots of hours.
Such a slider of course would have to be balanced in team hunting - like there could only be one setting for the entire team.
On shared loot mobs the split of loot on a global/hof would have to be reduced for the 'eco/qty' hunter to give those who took the bigger risk also the bigger share.

PS: I know people could just hunt smaller mobs to make their ped card last longer, but it just isnt fun to never be able to advance to the higher/more challenging mobs if you play on a set budget. The cost to keep hunting shouldnt go automatically and exponentially go up the higher level you get and the stronger mobs you kill.
 
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If ma made loot formula public.....alot of people would chipout and put there shit up for sale....only to find there's no buyers as they have cut there losses and uninstalled the game then there would then be a few seriously pissed off people who would turn up outside ma's office to break some ribs and knees.....so on that basis its in their interest not to and to keep raping you untill they can.
 
The reason why MA staff can play, and also why they can't compensate lost loot at
certain occaisons, is that you can't predict loot to 100%, which means that whatever you
do you will still be able to miss that really good one.
On the other hand, (way more) people should learn when to do what and when they shouldn't
do it.... :silly2:



In my opinion there is no need to tell everyone how thew system works, the moment everyone knows it and enough people try to take advantage of it it will all randomize again anyways - a big part of that formular is based on player dynamics and there is only so much you can do to tip the chances in your favour.

The much more important question is, what could mindark do to reduce the loss of individuals and make the game more mainstream. As i see it they need at some point to work on profiting from a much smaller share to allow the game to impress and keep a wider audience.



The purpose of revealing the loot formula wouldn't be to make it 100% predictable but to show everyone what factors they should be considering e.g. Players should be looking at the economy and seeing what there is a shortage of and what there is an abundance of because these factors are indicators. Materials that are in abundance i.e. with low markup than normal would mean they will loot poorly. Materials that are in short supply i.e. with extremely high markup from normal is a sign those are in very short supply and so will loot better or a big ATH is due on them.

This kind of info should be beneficial to newer players who don't know.


@jbk I think a better method is needed to reduce the loss to individuals. Making public loot formula is one other factors could be perhaps allowing slider all the way to 100% but then no skill gains either, or any globals i.e. skill gain, globals, loot return should all be amended depending on your slider setting.
 
Part of the genius of EU is that it plays on the Human psyche.

The globals (reward mechanisms), and the "im going to figure it out" mentality we all have is what really drives this game.

As soon as they give the plans away, the human component will move on to other seemingly complex things.
 
Can it be much different than any other game loot formula?
I think u can use Diablo formula and just change loot. And make sure ROI is ~90% because it is not virtual gold here.
 
If MA made all loot formulae public what would happen? (plus made public how they operate?)

* would there be fewer conspiracy theories?
* could the game then go mainstream?


What are the preconditions for this game going mainstream?
>Reduced cost to play?
>Alternative or new gameplay dynamics that don't include any loot formulae? So if we have other things to do how would MA make a profit from those other activities?


Sounds like a complete overhaul of the game :) so how long would it take MA to do this?

I would not want to make it publicly but I would love to see a few impartial people who are employed just to check that everything goes right and who master the system if there is litigation.

These non-partisan people should come from the Gaming Board "lotteri inspektionen".


:twocents:
 
I would not want to make it publicly but I would love to see a few impartial people who are employed just to check that everything goes right and who master the system if there is litigation.

These non-partisan people should come from the Gaming Board "lotteri inspektionen".


:twocents:

I dont think the loot system would ever be revealed. Be like a casino handing out brochures on the way in to tell u what to do with your money and when.

Id rather see A-- Some regulation from an official board. To end probably most conspiracy theories .

And B-- a more comprehensive list from MA about tools, equipment stats.
Along with mob stats and locations.
Tonns are available including wiki. But the info is scatttered and incomplete.
 
Like Marco once said, knowing the loot formula wouldn't help you at all. If it's true (and i have no reason to doubt it) then i can make it public right here:

THE LOOT FORMULA IS UNPREDICTABLE.
There. Now u have it. The secret's out. :tongue2:

But i suspect that wasn't really what OP meant.
What can be made public is changes in relative droprates of different mobs/maturities and maps of the mining resources. The mob and the general timeframe when certain rare items will be added to the lootpool, etc.

If that kind of info leaks out it quite obviously has negative impact on the game.
If it doesn't leak out ppl might still see patterns behind randomness and suspect this info is leaking out.
If it's made public for everyone it can't leak but then the whole thing becomes kinda lame.

It's hard to tell which one of those would be the greater evil in the long run?
 
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If MA did, it would probably be as damaging as the "There is no personal loot pool" announcement some years back.

So I dont think they should, it would also make the game as much fun as having all your Xmas presents labelled with the contents. :xwink:
 
Part of the genius of EU is that it plays on the Human psyche.

The globals (reward mechanisms), and the "im going to figure it out" mentality we all have is what really drives this game.

As soon as they give the plans away, the human component will move on to other seemingly complex things.

This is very true !
 
Be like a casino handing out brochures on the way in to tell u what to do with your money and when.
:scratch2: Whatchu-talkin-about-Willis?

Every game in a casino has very clear rules, known odds, and probably at least a dozen books on each specific variation of each game.

The thing casinos know that Mindark doesn't seem to is that statistical distribution over time works fine on the macro scale, but individually it does NOT... Casinos have do something called comp, such as drinks, rooms and shows. Most people believe comp is short for complimentary but casino insiders probably call in compensation, given out to make up for extreme losses.

I think the EU loot algorithms are most easily described as die-rolls in Dungeons & Dragons, and that type of 80s role-playing that depended on multi-sided dice to determine to outcome of the different types of encounters.
 
i dont think it would matter, most people are too stupid to see how it works, even if it were shoved in their face daily
 
Players should be looking at the economy and seeing what there is a shortage of and what there is an abundance of because these factors are indicators. Materials that are in abundance i.e. with low markup than normal would mean they will loot poorly. Materials that are in short supply i.e. with extremely high markup from normal is a sign those are in very short supply and so will loot better or a big ATH is due on them.


Badly written so here's a corrected improved explanation.

Looking at mark up on resources can be very rewarding. Resources that have a low markup from normal means they are looting well. However if markup is below 110% you'll probably make a loss unless you store it and sell later when markup is normal. This assumes markup for the resource was above 110%. For example say markup on a resource is normally 154% but today it's 120%. That seems to indicate it's looting well and you could go out get it and sell it for a profit. A few days later say it's markup is at 106%. Then you could still collect it but don't sell it but store it for later when markup is at 154%.


Resources that have a high markup from normal would indicate they are looting badly. However a hof on that resource may be due as the system may be stockpiling it for a large drop. For example say iron is normally 120% but today it's at 205%. That's unusually high and would indicate system is stockpiling it. You could go out and try and mine it and may get a large hof. However, since it's looting badly you may also get not much of it but some other resource that's mined at the same level as iron.
 
:scratch2: Whatchu-talkin-about-Willis?

Every game in a casino has very clear rules, known odds, and probably at least a dozen books on each specific variation of each game.

Think you got wrong end of the stick or i wasnt explaining v well.

No casino that i have encountered hands out books on the door. Telling you which machines are dry and which are loaded to the point they will pop any moment.

It is expected you do you own research and learn how to spot those signs.

There are plenty of guides yes, all available in book stores far away from casinos.

The sort of info available, even on an iphone sat at a table is theoreticly stratergy. Just like the info for EU.
Nothing to tell you where to go, when not to bet and When to lay down everything..
 
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Casinos are popular even all rules to each game like roulette or black jack are clear.

All ppl guessing that revealing loot formula will end this game are lacking serious arguments to back it up, and basicaly think out various catastrophic scenarios becourse they dont want it to be revealed ( some think ignorance is bless ).

Actually revealing it can bring lot of good things for game like mentioned mainstream allowance maybe even via steam, resulting in lot more participants, fluent functioning of microtransaction model and smaler player activities taxation ( a.k.a. returns )

Also what few ppl mentioned, that revealing loot formula will cause exploit is also not true. It assumes that this formula may can be exploited at all which is highly unprobable. If romula is some complicated algoritm incorporating random elements and event/trigers witl really low probablity to occur it cannot be exploited.

I see 2 main reasons why MA don't want reveal it thou, even if there are obvious advantages of that. Either it is not random/not have randomness component in ot or fall under gambling for some reson and MA knows it.
 
Calling this game a Casino is extremely far off.
In casino's you have a good chance of *WINNING* every so often.
Here no matter how much you *Gamble* its just a steady spiral down with little to no *WINNING* scenarios.

If you take 3k to the casino, you will win a good number of times before cycling it down.
If you take 3k to EU, the loot mechanics will eat it away quick, doubt you would see a hof / winning scenario.


At least in a casino you know the loot mechanics / game mechanics without guessing or theroys.
 
We should remember that this game is (supposed to be) 'dynamic' and to consider that knowing or having better understanding the loot formula/algorithm may not necessarily mean anyone could more easily receive better loot or manipulate the game in some way.

At a fundamental level, there are likely many different factors involved in an avatar receiving a certain loot or a certain find etc at any given time (not thinking about events or items dropping in assumed waves etc) based on current ingame activity, recent historical activity, longer-term activity, individual transactions (deposits, withdrawal history, repairs), playerbase wide transactions, repairs, other microtransactions, whatever...
 
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