Eye Candy Vs Plaabilty.. which option is better/ or is there a happy medium?

Note To mods: this thread is a discussion about the ideas of what is playable or not,and what is indeed dyd candy.. Now for the mods clarification I'm going to bring up the two definitions that we are going to deal with.. namely the words "Eye Candy" and "Playability".. for the definition of each here are what they mean.

Eye Candy: (Informal Noun)
Visual images that are superficially attractive and entertaining but intellectually undemanding.

Playability : (Adjective) .
The ability to have a game to be capable of or suitable for being played in an enjoyable manner.

Now that we got this clear on that part, let us beigin with the topic at had considering this is Entropia Universe (However I shall provide other examples of what we are dealing with here, and that is the playability and challenge of the game versus the visual immagry in order to appeal to the players sense of Immersion..

Okay with all that out of the way, let me begin..

Entrooiua Universe.. a game that is entertaining and fun.. but there's always been an issue with this game especially in the last 6 or so years.. and that issue it seems it to be the ability to allow players to play tthe game and to enjoy it in a pleasing manner. In short, Players who want to be challenged by the rigors of the game should be able to enjoy it so taht they can have the fun of doing anything they want to.. be it sweating, Looking for fruit, humnting, mining and yes even crafting, taming, and even beauty, clothing make up.. In short this game has a ton of things to do..

But that's not ther reason why I am posting this.. Lately we've all been hearing about hwo this game is becomeing laggy, buggy, and that things are not being fixed in a timely manner. And this in itself hurts the enjoyment of this game, the Playability as it were.. But then what have we gotten out of it? A lot of new content.. New Planets, new weapons, new tools and equipment, and yes, even new sceneries for us to enjoy (not to mention the mob upgrades in this game which makes the game more appealing to players in a non intellectual sens.. what is better known as.. "Eye Candy."

Now as I stated previously Every gamer in an MMO, definitely loves the new content, they also love the stunning vistas, and scenry, they love doing things.. but as of right now, I've heard a lot about players complaining about lag, and the fact that everytime that MA decides to bring in a new item or a new idea, the game gets more and more laggy... and in fact it's this laddiness bedcause of the eye candy that makes this game slowly become unplayable to some, and totally unplayable to others...

Sure the Technology is there, we have the Graphic cards that can render thousands of Plolygons (Poplys as game developers call them) and yet each time we bring more and more polys into the game, the game slows down further and further.. until the lag sets in , in a manner of speaking..

Now this brings up a rather curious question? And in fact it's a 2 parter.. and remember there is no real right nor wrong answer.. it's how the players perceive the game.. in terms of it's immersion, it's aplayabilty and of course how appealing the game is in terms of the tools and ideas put otut there by Mindark..

First question is a real simple one.. and this is based around the players..

If you had to choose between Playabilty (the ability to play the game and enjoy it with little or no lag, would you be willing to give up a bit of the "Eye Candy" in exchange for it? Or.. would you want to keep the eye candy, and keep complaining about how laggy the game is? But then again most of us have addapted to it..

Now that's the first question.. what do players want? After all we can't have our cake and can eat it as well. unless we can find a middle gorund.. Maybe waht Mindark needs todo is consider options.. and this is not only in terms of content but in terms of ideas when it comes to game play...

For example let's take anyw planet out there and really put it under the microsocope.. and I doestn't matter if it's Calypso, Rocktropia or any of the other planets.. even Monria... Space too would count.. so really let's take a big look at the little picture..

If we were to give up game eye candy for the fact that we want to play would it be wise to choose a differnt game engine than the one we have currently.. and in fact I've talked to both game devs and up and coming game devs and they both agree, that if they wanted to develop a game, and keep it fun, they'd have to sudy which game engine would best suit the needs of the player..

And iIMHO, I feel that the CE2 engine in my opinion is a bit of an "Overkill" Sure the graphics look stunning and the content is great, but the issue is that the CE game engines really in my opinion were never relaly ever designed for a viabile MMO period.. Instead there are game engines outthere that are and can honle MMO's quite nicely, and infact some of them are in fact cheaper than the price tag offered by Crysis..

Perhaps one of the most undeerrated, yet often overlooked game engines that is out there is in fact Unity...and this game engine is fairly inexpensive compareied to that of the CE engines that are out there..

Iand can a game be developed with it? Absolutely, and not only single player games, but MMO's as well.. (LIke I said, Unity is in fact the most underrated game engine outt here.. and yet, is can have very stunning graphics if the programmers put their mind to it.. and their imagination... not to mention to listen to what the players want..

Now as for myself, and probably others who are just your "Average joes" Sure some of the people can upgrade to the newer and faster game engines.. and yet some of us can not.. that's the problem right there. Games should be enjoyable no matter what the card is..

And that's just the tip of the playabilty side of the game.. Graphics should'n't be such a high priorty in this game.. instead I feel that the game should be enjoyable for anyone who ants to ejoy it.. and it doesn't matter what you do in this game..

Now as for hte eye Candy supportive folks, I say, sure the eye candy is great.. Each planet is unique and differnt.. each has their own style and immersion factor.. but then the question is.. at wahat cost to the game play? I mean how much "Eye candy does a player need to play in a game? How spectacular can the game get, and yet be playable? That's perhaps the toughest question of them all.. But again let's say you wanted to have the eye candy.. wel lthat's fine but then you'll have to deal with the fact that for each poly going into an object it takes a tiny bit of computin power both in terms of Physical as well as Graphical computing power in order to make the game render.. and all thoe computations actually help in terms of the lag..

And then.. there's the internet.. yes our wonderful world of Global interconnectivity.. and in this world, not all countries have boradband or T1 or even ASDL or anything of that nature.. some players in their world countries are slowly catching up, but like everything it takes time for a country or a state or a county to be upgraded.. and of course it costs the same thing that exists in this game.. and the priomoary issue is that it costs money..

Sure Mindark is paying their ISP's with our decay.. on armor, on weapons, and on tools and even our vehicles.. that's part of how Mindark pays it's bills.. but then what kind of quality are we getting here? More content it seems and again I go back to that issue of Polygon count. the more polys the more lag..

so somewhere in all of this there has to be a happy medium, not just for 1 or two players but for everyone.. After all like I said, you can not have your cake and eait it as well.. (Heck if you tired that, you'd probably choke on the cake.. iwhich is kind of funny as some of us are turning blue as we wait for the loot to drop.. sometimes it take seconds if not in the worst case scenario up to a minue to see if we have a looter or not.. or we find a resource or not.. In short, sometimes the lag kills the game play...

So like I said, there's gotaa be a happy medium.. and maybe mindark should consider the options.. ideas like exporing as to what the game would look like in differnt game engines. to see what would be playable..

After all just recently a certain game came out, an it's immersion depth is fairly real, it's playabilty even more so.. and in fact there are other games that are being developed this next wyear that will give player sthe abilty to enjoy the immersion , without the sacrifice of the gameplay..

that's the bottom line here.. it's basically an issue about content andall the eye candy that goes with it, or the fact taht it's the playabilty and the enjoyment of the game.. Sounds confusing right? Well , it's not.. It's really about what players want..

*Sigh* but considering that Mindark never listens to it's players, (though I have heard some of the Planet Partners do listen to the players, the issue is that until they start losing money will Mindark consider or rather reconsider it's options.. After all there's a lot of things out there that could easily make or break a gme.. and in the forum, i've sene enough game makers and berakers to make me wonder.. should they the ddevelopers reconsidre listening to their players.. and to make some shift in the ideas that they have..

After all playabilty is about the enjoy ment of the game, the abilty to challenge yourselves .. the eye candy? it's all about the immersion and the fact that everything my look cool..

I"m going to finsih this little rant with a simple story.. and it's a fun one tat that..

I had a friend who in the last few years wanted "The Best" in comptuer gear.. and I mean THE BEST... Even when he'd ask a tech, he'd tell him that he wanted the fasted video card, thefastest processor and the fastest hard drive in the bunch.. and when the tech looked at him and then me, and then back to my friend, he always said, that what he was asking wa in factway too much.. I mean sure watching Youtube videos are one thing but once the human eye gets above 30 FPS, it doesn't make a hills wroth of beans how fast you got the video running.. Sure the Hard drives are great for faster access, but why have them as well because he was watching videos? And the Processor? Sometimes it was just pure overkill..

and yet, my friend insisted he wanted the best.. and didn't care how much he's have to pay to get it.. and when the tech finally stop arguing.. he'd tallu it up and hand the friend the bill, soometimes in the tune of 1500 USD or more.. all for eye candy..

Me? I'm the more pactical one.. I don't need the fastest computer, I don't need the best video card, I don't need the best processor.. and in the end, I was and sill am to enjoy entopia on perhaps a budget that is 1/4th that of what my friend paid out.. and I still get the same (if not better results..

So inclosing, I gues the issue here is how much we ar willing to spend on what we want ot of the game.. I mean sure for some of us , money is no object/ but for others, it the abilty to play this game and enjoy it, even if the eye candy isn't as good as it could be.. I mean sure I'm currently out of game, and I will log in from time to time, but the way the computer is, and the fact that I have to upgrade again (the 3rd time in 3 years), it makes me wonder .. is this game just too costly to be playing it? If it is, well then maybe it's time to quit.. if not, well that's okay, when I'm not doing EU, I can be doing a whole Myraid of things.. and in fact hey are a lot less graphically intensive..

Now if' you'll excuse me, I'm going off to go have some fun.. in some other game, a game that is challenging, and fun, and let's you imagine the poossibilites.. what that game is, I can not say, but as long as there is imagination in my life, there always will be fun.. After all all work and no play makes Jack or Jill a dull person, but not enough play can leave you bored.. and frankly I';m upt to any chanllege thorw up my way.. after all like people say, in this game and others..

"It's only a game right? (or is this game something more?)

well I'm done.. Have fun causing your brains to smoke and a few of your brains might explode.. just wrapping your heads around this one..

As for me? Benjamin Ben Coyote .. over and out..

(Sgt)Benjamin Ben Coytoe, IFN Military
a.k.a. "The Blind Sniper.." (And ) "His_Dog_Spot " and Duck_Hunter....

Holy wall of text batman! $?!*?...

Quite happy with how it is at the moment.

Don't forget that the lag and bugs have been there since the beginning. Always has been and I expect always will be to some extent.

Remember also how different things were 10+ years ago compared to now. I played PE on Windows 98 and had my first DSL connection, probably less than a MB (I can't remember but it was certainly better than the dial-up)). At every stage of EU's evolution the players have adapted and MindArk and the community moves with the times in terms of technological advancement. Nowadays play on Windows 7 machine (4+ years old I think?) with Low or Medium graphic settings ingame but I now enjoy fibreoptic connection. I still get lag.

Gameplay always wins over eye candy for me. If I'm fortunate enough to get a great PC with awesome graphics capability in future, I won't play the game any differently - but I will enjoy the enhanced visuals. But, there's no need for me to spend the money on it. EU currently provides enough settings for me to tweak to ensure I enjoy the game as I wish.

I really want them to fix the issues with multiple gfx cards. It's an embarrassment.

I want them to finish the incomplete systems. Also, an embarrassment.

I would like them to finish this stupid Compets thing and follow through with their statement that we will be able to make PEDs by selling things to the Compets players.

I would like for them to finish this whole CLD lots building construction thing.

After all of that, then they can add more crap.

Both are important. Perhaps MA should alternate work on both, e.g. one month work on playability, next graphics etc. Switching between the two would thus improve both.

The server only tells your PC where something/someone is (coordinates) and what he's doing. All the graphics are then composed and displayed locally.
Means high graphics doesn't create network lag. If your computer can't keep up with the task in real time it can create lag locally, but this has nothing to do with internet or connection speed.

If I have to choose i'll take content over graphics, it's nice to have a beatiful postcard but it gets boring to look at it if nothing happens.

The Counter response to all of this.

Well after reading the few posts so far on this thread , I've decided to COunter comment on this.. Call me a Devil's advocate on this one..

First off this comment comes to mind..:

Rumsponge said:

I really want them to fix the issues with multiple gfx cards. It's an embarrassment.

I want them to finish the incomplete systems. Also, an embarrassment.

I would like them to finish this stupid Compets thing and follow through with their statement that we will be able to make PEDs by selling things to the Compets players.

I would like for them to finish this whole CLD lots building construction thing.

After all of that, then they can add more crap.

Click to expand...

Alright, noted, and in fact the logic here is in fact that the issue is that a lot of the bugs that exist in the game does affect the game play... but then we can't really blame ourselves for having lousy PC's either.. after all I feel that the reason why the number of players in game is so low, is because of the fact that the game has too much "Eye Candy" as it were.. too many polygons.. but then this isn't causing the lag here, and in fact I can probably exploain this even better with this comment.

Fifth said:

The server only tells your PC where something/someone is (coordinates) and what he's doing. All the graphics are then composed and displayed locally.
Means high graphics doesn't create network lag. If your computer can't keep up with the task in real time it can create lag locally, but this has nothing to do with internet or connection speed.

If I have to choose i'll take content over graphics, it's nice to have a beatiful postcard but it gets boring to look at it if nothing happens.

Click to expand...

Now granted this is a logical point, but let's look at this from the standpoint of the game eninge.. and this was told to me by many a game dev I've talked to..

The CE2 engine really wasn't designed for MMO's.. the reason is queite simple. it's nto that the server can't handlethe load, it's teh amount of people and data you have on a server at any gien moment.. and it's these factors that help cause the lag...

Let me give an example.. Celeste QUarry, Camp Icarus, or Twin or whatever major hubs that exist in this game.. YOu'll notice that a lot of people just stand there and sdo what..? Absolutely nothing other than advertising to buy sell or trade..In some cases like Camp Icarus, it's all the noobs standing around, talking and asking questions to more experienced players (a noble gesture indeed, and of ocurse we have the "Auction Browsers" and this iswhere the problem starts.)

I've seen that of the 6 worlds out there, only 3 of them are being heavily used, those being Calypso Arkadia, and Rocktropia.. The other three? Thy are virually barren.. and iin fact the issue is that players are contnet to play on one world without trying the other worlds out there, and this includes Next Island/Secret Island..) So in a way, the Player base is waht I call "Planet-Centric" Which means players tend to hang around on the planet rather than moving about.. and I can answer that one as well.. it's called Lootable PVP Space.. Many are scared to go out into space for fear of loss of items (and thus peds..) yet have they ever stopped to consider what they could do ? Well that's why the auction system was changed.. (and in some ways this is good for the players and bad for the players who want to pirate.. but it too has a bit of an issue as well.. and that is the fact that many players want results immediately rather than being patient.. (Sounds confusing? IT really isn't.. )

Today's gamers focus too much on the eye candy, and the instant Gratification of being rewarded.. the issue is, some of the more experience players know that they're init for the long haul, and some of them are extremely paPatient (inluding myself ) But today's players who come into game want instant results, they don't care if they win (but they do care if they lose) but in the end, when all is said and done, these players really sometimes don't have the common couresy to log out and to use the phone apps that EU have given them..(and there's a myriad aof reasons at that doesn't happen..


But to make a long story short, I think this player has the issue right..

Steveyneo said:

Quite happy with how it is at the moment.

Don't forget that the lag and bugs have been there since the beginning. Always has been and I expect always will be to some extent.

Remember also how different things were 10+ years ago compared to now. I played PE on Windows 98 and had my first DSL connection, probably less than a MB (I can't remember but it was certainly better than the dial-up)). At every stage of EU's evolution the players have adapted and MindArk and the community moves with the times in terms of technological advancement. Nowadays play on Windows 7 machine (4+ years old I think?) with Low or Medium graphic settings ingame but I now enjoy fibreoptic connection. I still get lag.

Gameplay always wins over eye candy for me. If I'm fortunate enough to get a great PC with awesome graphics capability in future, I won't play the game any differently - but I will enjoy the enhanced visuals. But, there's no need for me to spend the money on it. EU currently provides enough settings for me to tweak to ensure I enjoy the game as I wish.

Click to expand...

That's the whole issue right there.. This game is constantly evolving and in fact we've all had to adapt in some way shape or form.. but many players can't or won't or don't.. and they are the ones who leave the game.. Unhappy, disgusted, whatever negative emotion you want to put in..

It would be funny to see these people come back now some 2 yeears from the last time they logged on and see that the game play has gotten better, the fun is slowly returning.. The issue it seems however are th player s in genrral.. and this is perhaps the major turn off.. Sure you can hang around twin and socialize, same goes for any of the major hubs.. But then we have issues when somene has the bight idea to spawn out his entire vehicle line and turn the location into a parking lot.. Remember, we're talking Polygons here.. Lots and lots of them.. and sure even though they're on the servers, the end result is that the draw times get slower and slower, and thus the lag sets in... I guess that's why Toulan did it's "No Vehicle Policy" and in fact it works quite well.. TP Chips? Definitely are worth their weight in gold over on Toulan, and in fact having even a TP I Chip is a godsend..

"The point is. Polygons Or Plys here, and in fact sure the data is there, after all let's not forget that they have to keep track of every item we own.. and that right there eats up bandwidth.. and hence the higher decay costs..(Which players grumble at constantly..)

But I think that George gets the award with what he says.. and I couldn't agree more..

Both are important. Perhaps MA should alternate work on both, e.g. one month work on playability, next graphics etc. Switching between the two would thus improve both.

I tend to agree, even though I am more of the 'pro-Plaabilty' side of the equation then the "Eye Candy or "Centent Side".. Game play should be enjoyable and fun, and yes even with the little lags we have, Gameplay could be a bit better.. so maybe the thing we have to do is to adapt to it.. and to understand that we ahve a few factors that we have to deal with.. those being..

1. MA has limited resources..(and by Limited resources), I mean Game Developers and Programmers.) Sure it's great to have new content in from time to time, but the game should work smoothly, and in fact George has the idea down right.. MA should alternate between both, working one patch on making the game more fun in terms of Playability, the next making the game work right with as Few issues as possible.. That's the issue, too few cooks, and too few people to solve the problems.. and what MA really needs to do Is to look into hiring more folks to develop the game. But then they're working on what should be bugs and fixes and the rest work on Content..

Anyway that about sums it up.. I'll let the rest of you discuss this but as for me? I'm on a wait and see kind o issue at the moemnt, after all This game isn't going anywhere.. at least not yet..

(Sgt) Benjamin Ben Coytoe , IFN Military
A.k.a "The Blind Sniper" (and Jis_Dog_Spot" and "Duck Hunter" )

VU took place in August 2009, it was a major increase in graphical capability. For many players playing on non gaming laptops it was pretty much unplayable and some of them took a break for a while until they had hardware able to return. To this day, some are only able to do so on Medium settings and still not benefit from the full 'Eye Candy experience'

It is 6 years on from that time, and pretty much any PC is now able to play Entropia, and if it cant, send it back.


Both Eye Candy and Playability are important to me.

If you asked me its like saying, "Which is more important, your right leg or your left?"

The problem is both eye/play are full of bugs. So that is not a fair question