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Should the money ever be returned

Should the money be returned

  • Yes - return the money

    Votes: 61 51.3%

  • No - your mistake my gain

    Votes: 35 29.4%

  • Doesn't affect me so I don't care

    Votes: 8 6.7%

  • MA should sort it out internally

    Votes: 15 12.6%
  • Total voters
    119
& the goal of this thread is...?
yes, to shame ppl... who are being honest enough to answer :)

ps i've had it with the 10 helena threads for now
 
das said:
& the goal of this thread is...?
yes, to shame ppl... who are being honest enough to answer :)

ps i've had it with the 10 helena threads for now
Click to expand...

The goal of this thread is to try and get a very limited judgement on the morality of those on this forum and who we meet ingame. Some fascinating responses, and a great help in knowing who I will never trade with again.
 
slither said:
Talk to me privately and you'll get it back. Take it public before even contacting me and I'll string you on for a bit before you get it. Piss me off and slag me in public and you'll get it back after a length of time I think will piss you off as much as you've pissed me off.
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That must be the nicest thing I have read in a while :hug:

I would return it, to me it is far more important to stick to good character than to good items you get at heavy price for someone else, it is better in the long run for everybody.

If you are a jerk and pissed off for a short time because of loss, and say shit in the start, I would explain that I would return it and would try my best to come with terms with you and return it...

If you are a total moron about it and start flaming and being an ass, I doubt I would return it, more sell it to you back for full price in best case, worst case character - It is mine and I am selling it to the highest bidder, and 50% profits go to buying sweat at 10 ped/1k for our dear newbs, other money goes to me for mending my character for attempts to make it right for you despite you being a complete bastard. Thanks for the trade!
 
Well.

If this had been done "in real life" at a "real" auction in Sweden, the money would be returned. It is illegal to make a gain on someone else's mistake (or rather: the transaction is void), if you know full well what you're doing:

31 § Har någon begagnat sig av annans trångmål, oförstånd, lättsinne eller beroende ställning till att taga eller betinga sig förmåner, vilka stå i uppenbart missförhållande till det vederlag, som må hava blivit erlagt eller utfäst, eller för vilka något vederlag icke skall utgå, vare rättshandling, som sålunda tillkommit, icke gällande mot den förfördelade.
Lag samma vare, där sådant otillbörligt förfarande, som i första stycker avses, ligger annan till last än den, gent emot vilken rättshandlingen företogs, och denne ägde eller bort äga kunskap därom.
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The same thing applies to the case where you, a highly experienced art dealer, finds a rare painting at a fleamarket on sale for about 1 / 10 000 of what the painting is really worth. You can not in that case legally buy the painting. The rule doesn't apply to the case of some general item being underpriced or even "very cheap". But extreme cases of misrepresentation between value and price are covered.
 
The Golden Rule.
Treat others as you want to be treated.:wise:
 
Does the pope poop in the woods?
Does the tree wear a funny hat?
If a cow tips over and no one is around to see, is it still funny?
 
Konve said:
Well.

If this had been done "in real life" at a "real" auction in Sweden, the money would be returned. It is illegal to make a gain on someone else's mistake (or rather: the transaction is void), if you know full well what you're doing:

.
Click to expand...

This is not true though, what that quote says is that you cannot take advantage of someone who is mentally challenged, in a position where one is dependent of you (you have the responsibilty of that persons best intrest) or a person who has no choice (in lack of a better word), as in paying a illegal immigrant a extremly low sallery because it cant do anything about it.

And as far as I know, none of the above fits Helena

If you make a bet on a swedish betting site you will not get your money back because you made a larger bet then planned by misstake.
 
slither said:
Talk to me privately and you'll get it back. Take it public before even contacting me and I'll string you on for a bit before you get it. Piss me off and slag me in public and you'll get it back after a length of time I think will piss you off as much as you've pissed me off.
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I'll add that if you started the request blame shifting and going on a slander campaign, I wouldn't sell it back or reverse trade and keep the money for damages (because THAT is illegal in the US) and if it pushed into RL threats, I'd call mindark directly and request an investigation.

There ARE boundaries. People need to accept responsibilities and this is happening enough that mindark should take a look at the auction interface.
 
Personally, if it was me, I'd probably return the money... assuming there was hard proof that it actually was a mistake, etc. Of course, in some rare cases, I might hold on to the money, especially if the buyer was someone who screwed me over on some deal a few years back.

However, from Mindark's perspective...

Nope. Money should not be returned because in the majority of auctions where too much is paid, it's not a mistake, it's someone's alt trying to up prices for some sucker later down the road... It'd be a slippery slope if you undid one auction before they'd have to undo every auction and sale ever in the history of the game.
 
Roth said:
This is not true though, what that quote says is that you cannot take advantage of someone who is mentally challenged, in a position where one is dependent of you (you have the responsibilty of that persons best intrest) or a person who has no choice (in lack of a better word), as in paying a illegal immigrant a extremly low sallery because it cant do anything about it.

And as far as I know, none of the above fits Helena

If you make a bet on a swedish betting site you will not get your money back because you made a larger bet then planned by misstake.
Click to expand...

You are correct. I didn't properly read what I was copy/pasting. Here you go:

32 § Den, som avgivit en viljeförklaring, vilken i följd av felskrivning eller annat misstag å hans sida fått annat innehåll än åsyftat varit, vare icke bunden av viljeförklaringens innehåll, där den, till vilken förklaringen är riktad, insåg eller bort inse misstaget.

33 § Rättshandling, som eljest vore att såsom giltig anse, må ej göras gällande, där omständigheterna vid dess tillkomst voro sådana, att det skulle strida mot tro och heder att med vetskap om dem åberopa rättshandlingen, och den, gentemot vilken rättshandlingen företogs, måste antagas hava ägt sådan vetskap.
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Even if 31 or 32 §§ don't apply, 33 § sure does.
 
Konve said:
Well.

If this had been done "in real life" at a "real" auction in Sweden, the money would be returned. It is illegal to make a gain on someone else's mistake (or rather: the transaction is void), if you know full well what you're doing:
Click to expand...

This is a real cash economy under full jurisdiction of real world laws, i.e. the Swedish. It cannot be made invalid by shrugging it off with one's own ToS. I believe it will be more expensive when a court order forces them first to hand over the data of the accused, and later to rectify the situation. And then they will do something about the auction interface. I can understand why MA is afraid of the precedent, but this doesn't change anything.
 
Konve said:
You are correct. I didn't properly read what I was copy/pasting. Here you go:



Even if 31 or 32 §§ don't apply, 33 § sure does.
Click to expand...

I doubt that "rättshandling" (act in law) applies to item sales, its more related to legal agreements, like warranties, testaments,eula(?) and so on.
If 33 applied to sales in general then we would have alot more legal actions agaisnt alot of companies in sweden.
Im may not be the best suited to get in to the depths of swedish law, but I am sure 100% sure that this would be called a legal transaction in every way. Except maybe that seller didnt pay taxes :eyecrazy:


So its still a question of moral, and everyone has their own
 
San said:
This is a real cash economy under full jurisdiction of real world laws, i.e. the Swedish. It cannot be made invalid by shrugging it off with one's own ToS. I believe it will be more expensive when a court order forces them first to hand over the data of the accused, and later to rectify the situation. And then they will do something about the auction interface. I can understand why MA is afraid of the precedent, but this doesn't change anything.
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You are so right. Helena should sue.
 
Does ts get paid to keep whining about this mistake?
 
what the aud worth tt 1 pec sorry too say if he paid that at least there nothing that can be done like i said in similor post before

its ma or the one that did the aud and clds if there were sold from the shop for 50 ped there should worth at least 50 peds

ow i forgot they took the money out the game the other way they couldnt do it that why its 1 ped i can pay the every aud and cld from my change in have in my pokets

the real price in court is what the tt value real value the rest is only what poeple may pay for it
 
Those that act in-game act like that in real life tend to:


a) Live happily ever after
b) Come to a sticky end
c) Have loads of friends



Cant remember which it is.




Voted option 1 in the poll
 
atomicstorm said:
He can't sue for his own negligence. But hey, let him/her flush more money down the toilet.
Click to expand...

Actually, strange as it may be; in most parts of Europe you can :scratch2:
Also it is not negligence; but a human error. Like has been said before, it was a real life auction Helena would have gotten his money back.
And prolly be sued for slander too.

Another thing is that filing a lawsuit is surely not as expensive as it is in the US. Actually, don't bother to even compare the two. It's like comparing a pork and a carrot.

The only thing is, at the pace Europeans courts work; one could wait years.
 
My opinion

I would do as Wirlo would.

If I ever made a mistake (not due to glitch, but a real mistake that humans make frequently) I would try to get my stuff back.

If someone else made a mistake, it's their mistake and my gain. In real life there are many people who don't make mistakes and still lose (scammed). If you make a mistake with a system that is equal for every single party using it (not like a justice court, or something that is "supposed" to be equal) that is your own fault. It happens and there are consequences.

If a child is drowning in freezing water near me, it is good to help him/her. However, it is not required. If the child drowns, it's a tragedy, if you save them, you are a hero.

I think the same principle applies here. Wirlo is being human, he is a regular guy. Just because you people are "hero's" he should not be shamed for his decision.
 
I'm sorry. What? This is simply morals vs greed.

There's no in between. There's no other options than to return it. Like the person above me relating this to saving a drowning child.

It's called morals. Something many of you seem to lack. Don't try to twist and justify any other action.
 
combo22 said:
The answer is No!
If you drop your wallet on the street and the guy behind you gets it it's his.
If you want the wallet returned you'll need to do what ever he likes, it's he's wallet now and you should not call it a thief for not returning it immediately, you should beg for mercy to get something back.

There is even a job for this , wallet picker(NOT thief), this guys responsibility is to clear the streets of these unwanted wallets, it's legal world wide.

Please keep this types of jobs alive, people need to make a living in this game, obviously this is a good way to do it and it should be promoted by developers, "How to make 3k$ with 3 clicks, no subscriptions needed"
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-------------------
That is incorrect. You pick up that wallet & keep it, you are committing a crime ( I cannot remember its name though)
What you should do I hand it to the police, and after a certain length of time passes, THEN you can claim it.
 
Roth said:
I doubt that "rättshandling" (act in law) applies to item sales, its more related to legal agreements, like warranties, testaments,eula(?) and so on.
If 33 applied to sales in general then we would have alot more legal actions agaisnt alot of companies in sweden.
Im may not be the best suited to get in to the depths of swedish law, but I am sure 100% sure that this would be called a legal transaction in every way. Except maybe that seller didnt pay taxes :eyecrazy:


So its still a question of moral, and everyone has their own
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Keeping in mind that I am still talking IRL, not in-game. A "rättshandling" is exactly what happens when you buy or sell something. It does not refer to "physically signing a contract" or some such. It could be buying a jug of milk at the neares supermarket. Or signing up to be an organ donor.

I can think of a few reasons why you don't see more of this. E.g. the cost of a lawsuit > potential gain of standing your ground. And there's also the large grey zone between what is "OK" and what is "not OK".
 
gwit said:
Allow me to reply:

1. No I'm not getting paid. Why would I want to be paid. This is an issue of right or wrong. I don't seek to make money out of this and don't think anyone should. To ask if I am being paid is an outright insult.
2. This is not about rules it is about morality.
3. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about here.
4. The high profile are not only the innocent. The innocent are always the innocent. I will defend anyone to the bitter end if they are innocent.
5. A threat in real life or indeed in game is not acceptable but if a person is refusing to give your money back, what do you do. I would always litigate but then I prefer litigation over threats. Threats get you nowhere.
6. Fails in what way. Wirlo should right the wrong. Act like a man and give the deeds back, or the money he is making from them by his sales. That's the bitter truth of this matter.
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1 - I simply question your strong motivations because as i said, you are defending up to your teeth someone and something which you arent aware of the whole situation
2- Morality? You speak of judgements based on 1 single side to this? Is the same as you defend a guy that got his car robbed by someone, and as it turns out, that car wasnt his at the first place ( pure example)
3 - As i said, I'd gladly give insights about some more stuff
4 - You basicly defend someone you think to be inocent 100%, what about, did the tought crossed your mind that he could instead of his mistake, was trying to put few heavily expensive AUD or CLD? Cos mistakes surelly happen, but, there's always a IF to the issue.
5 - Threats will get him to a place yes, a ban in PCF and if he keeps flaming ingame and threatening ingame maybe a longer term ban ingame and instead of 30k that he lost to a mistake, he will lose his whole assents to acting in anger/despair... which i understand his standing
6 - You guys ever questioned about the past Wirlo had with the people he dealt the last couple of days? Cos I know he was interrogated and aproached by some people that are from his country and threatened.


And by no means, as i mentioned earlier, im being paid or taking either of the sides, but there is more to this that is in my rights to share publicly.
Hopefully soon enough Wirlo might post
 
this happened to me
in both cases I returned the money.
If those guys are still around they can confirm.
At one case (Arkadia auction mistake), MA/PP contacted with me asking if I'm willing to return the money!
If I wanted I could be richer by couple thousands PED :ahh: but I shouldn't look at my face in the mirror afterward.

(I think was a third small mistake on Caly auctions aswell, but I lost my RL notes from 1st year!)

It is always YES for me! No doughts!

PS. I was blessed to meet some awesome people - friends, who they gave me FOR FREE their belongings, when they decided to quit the game (we talking for 100's of PED's)! So it is my duty to give back something to the community and also forgive ANY mistake happens instead to get an advantage.
 
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combo22 said:
The answer is No!
If you drop your wallet on the street and the guy behind you gets it it's his.
If you want the wallet returned you'll need to do what ever he likes, it's he's wallet now and you should not call it a thief for not returning it immediately, you should beg for mercy to get something back.

There is even a job for this , wallet picker(NOT thief), this guys responsibility is to clear the streets of these unwanted wallets, it's legal world wide.

Please keep this types of jobs alive, people need to make a living in this game, obviously this is a good way to do it and it should be promoted by developers, "How to make 3k$ with 3 clicks, no subscriptions needed"
Click to expand...

If you do so in switzerland, you be a crime, if you dont give back the wallet you find on the street. Im pretty sure, switzerland is not the only country, handle this as a crime.
 
trance said:
If you do so in switzerland, you be a crime, if you dont give back the wallet you find on the street. Im pretty sure, switzerland is not the only country, handle this as a crime.
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I'm trying to believe he's trolling and not serious.
But after all I will open my notepad and start wrighting down some...."interesting" answers/names.
I think I will need that list to keep handy afterward and will see if somebody of those makes a mistake.
 
Firstly, I think people need to get the analogies correct. Selling on AH for lower price is a mistake for sure, but not equivalent to dropping a purse on the ground. It is equivalent to bidding too high in a real life Auction or selling your own product for too low in a real life auction. In both cases, it is non refundable.

Also i think people love to get on there high ethical horses for the sake of arguments. Yes, in EU its a matter of a 1000-5000 bucks which is peanuts to most of us. However, I would love to see who would irl leave an opportunity of making a a couple million bucks from someones mistakes ( by mistake i mean pricing mistake, not considering stealing/perjury etc) and agrees to be magnanimous and return it. ( Don't tell me you would cause i am pretty sure most wouldn't). Plenty of such cases happen irl and its a very very rare occurrence that the amount was refunded.

Now what is pretty unethical is to go in game and call the person a scammer ( when technically it is not a scam at all) and to call out the person in that way. Eventually karma is a bitch and personally I think people should learn to accept there own mistakes and move along.

In this particular case, its disheartening to see that when the tables were turned, people did not return the favor that was endowed on them. Disappointing for sure.

Divinity
 
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Personally, I would refund the money to the seller if I was kindly asked to do so. But if the seller jumped to the conclusion that I was not gonna return the money, and headed straight to the forum and posted crap about me, I would keep the money.
 
Billy Jean Ruby said:
I'm trying to believe he's trolling and not serious.
But after all I will open my notepad and start wrighting down some...."interesting" answers/names.
I think I will need that list to keep handy afterward and will see if somebody of those makes a mistake.
Click to expand...

Yea, it was sarcasm.. got a message from the poster. But just to fine written post, to understand it at early morning.. hehe
 
I would return the money in normal cases.

It would basically mostly depends on the way the one who made the mistake communicates.

If the one who made the mistake in the first place start calling me names, threats. I would say fuck-it as well.


In the CLD case , I think Helena screwed up twice, first by making the mistake, secondly by very poor communication and trying to 'force' the buyer by making wild accusation on public forum.
 
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