Petition to remove Explosive BPs (or change them) - Part 2

and when gamblers start gambling with regular crafts they still send it to the tt... only change is that hunter/miners may get 20-50 PED profit per 100 PED spend and that's what the EP IV removal really is about, isn't it?

it doesnt change shit for miners. if the crafters pay more MU that means that the amps for the miners get more expensive as well. its just a little bit of inflation. but that inflation makes it easier to play around with numbers and find an edge to profit which would make it less gambling. people would sell more which would slow down the cycling which would be less gambling.
 
i mean... you could completely destroy MA with just making a detailed report about the game and show how its dangerous for gambling addicts and then send it to the US government and the gambling authorities in the US.
Then look out for an NGO that progresses against gambling and send it to them too to make then pressure the government even more. It wouldnt even take 12 months for them to ban EU for americans and then its goodbye Mindark.

Sounds like a plan?
 
it doesnt change shit for miners. if the crafters pay more MU that means that the amps for the miners get more expensive as well. its just a little bit of inflation. but that inflation makes it easier to play around with numbers and find an edge to profit which would make it less gambling. people would sell more which would slow down the cycling which would be less gambling.

it's your own fault if you gamble with amps.
just use UL finder either with UL amp or unamped. no cost inflation for miner there ^^
 
it's your own fault if you gamble with amps.
just use UL finder either with UL amp or unamped. no cost inflation for miner there ^^

yea just that the amp that costs 100k peds now might cost 500k peds then. so yeah. no inflation. totally.
 
yea just that the amp that costs 100k peds now might cost 500k peds then. so yeah. no inflation. totally.

then just go unamped if you don't have UL amp already ffs...
and the inflation part was about costs per drop... there will be no inflation there on UL stuff.
 
but those missed interests from deeds are significantly lower than the gain from binding that money to that item.
If you can earn more this way over the other, then of course it makes economic sense. If there is risk involved whether this goal can be achieved (e.g. it only working out if you win a competition), then that risk also has to be priced in.

Anyway, even if there's opportunity costs, that still doesn't change the fact of UL users only pumping up the economy with ressources while not taking any ressources out of the economy which causes the MU of ressources to go close to 100% in the long run.
This is true. But, but, we once had an old Project Entropia which we loved so much and there was only unlimited gear and markups were cool. Does anyone remember why that ever worked? Is growth in numbers the only thing that killed it? I have to admit, I don't fully understand it.
 
This is true. But, but, we once had an old Project Entropia which we loved so much and there was only unlimited gear and markups were cool.

but that was because gamblers had to gamble on regular crafts wasn't it?
Btw, i need an EP III BP, no more grinding hofs for 95% return on "expensive" roadie on full condition lol
 
This is true. But, but, we once had an old Project Entropia which we loved so much and there was only unlimited gear and markups were cool. Does anyone remember why that ever worked? Is growth in numbers the only thing that killed it? I have to admit, I don't fully understand it.

Back that days people gambled with regular BPs.

L2 amp was very comon or some tailoring BPs aswell, like Leaf Beret.

Do you really think those who crafted L2 amps 10hrs a day, did sell their 5k+ amps daily to miners? How naive, they dumped it into TT and start over to hit that damn HOFs.

Do you really think this crafter who clicked Leaf Berets 10hrs a day, sold all this 5k+ Berets to the fashion fans? No, he dumped it into TT and start over to hit that damn HOFs.

All economy back that days was driven by crafting gamble.

Yes, that days MUs was nice and many miners claimed to have ALWAYS profit after MU.
Many hunters could claim that aswell.

With explo BPs the gamblers moved to this new BPs and now we have a more real picture of the economy, and this economy simply does not work, due to the UL items.

Only a very small fraction of hunters/miners buy L gear on a regular basis, most hunters I know own UL gear (me included).
Many miners go unamped using only UL finders, well those using L amps do their part to keep some MU at least a little up.

Sure there is also hunters that use enhancers, and some may even use L amps.
If you look through threats when it comes to profit and losses, you can hear from the experienced hunters that doing this is noob and they should invest some thousand PED into UL gear to get out of their loss, and surely they should do bigger runs (more turnover) to get to an better return rate (90%+).

The downspiral for MUs is caused by people who listen to this advices and by those giving these advises as they do exactly that.

There was times when MA announced that they want to shift EU more to L items.
They started with it and gave us Breers, Aspis, Rutics and a lot more L gear.

And then they started to let UL counterparts of all that drop like rain, and that exactly was the dead of nice MUs and a working economy in EU.

And they still continue with that shit, handing out more and more UL gear with every damn Mayham.

Removing UL items and shifting to L economy would be the solution.

Now MA should not simply remove UL items, but make some attempts to reduce the amount of existing UL gear and completely stop handing out new UL gear.

The upgrade missions is one way to reduce UL gear, if it needs several UL parts to get one upgraded part.

Maybe someone has other ideas how to get rid of some UL stuff over time.

One way could be to make existing UL gear simply non competitve vs L gear over time.
Speak give us:
L FAPs that can heal 200 HP/pec (crafted)
5 DPP L guns (crafted)
85%+ efficency L guns (crafted)

aso aso

Sadly I cant see any attempt to remove or outdate old UL gear.
What i can see: there is more and more and more UL gear, which is way better than anything crafted handed out with every event.

Economy in EU never will become strong again with that MA politics.

Exactly that is one point why many of my old friends left EU for good, and never came back.

Well there is other points aswell why people left for good, but thats another story.
 
One way could be to make existing UL gear simply non competitve vs L gear over time.
Speak give us:
L FAPs that can heal 200 HP/pec (crafted)
5 DPP L guns (crafted)
85%+ efficency L guns (crafted)

preferbly by updating existing L items instead of introducing new BPs... we don't need new BPs, we need the items of existing BPs to be better than UL gear...
 
preferbly by updating existing L items instead of introducing new BPs... we don't need new BPs, we need the items of existing BPs to be better than UL gear...

I think all Blueprints should be Limited also if we were to go down this route... otherwise the people that hold ALL the cards will become the crafters.... No I am not scared of Crafters I craft often myself but I do like to see balance and what we have at the moment is far from it in all categories...
 
I think all Blueprints should be Limited also if we were to go down this route...

and when all BPs are limited the economy and the game can collapse very quickly, because you can't run infinite clicks to loot new L BPs... unless the game simply gets flooded with L BPs, but then you could just make all BPs UL...
 
and when all BPs are limited the economy and the game can collapse very quickly, because you can't run infinite clicks to loot new L BPs... unless the game simply gets flooded with L BPs, but then you could just make all BPs UL...

or we could just rename the game Casino Universe
 
just do add something:

i use tons of terra 8 amps and it seems that me alone can handle more than the economy is able to provide, as some of the resources needed got out of stock.

and that has been me alone, in 2 weeks and only with 3 active days a week. so i basically killed the market in 6 days.

now imagine how this would look like with 10 times the players (apart from MA not being able to handle thr traffic)
 
I think all Blueprints should be Limited also if we were to go down this route... otherwise the people that hold ALL the cards will become the crafters.... No I am not scared of Crafters I craft often myself but I do like to see balance and what we have at the moment is far from it in all categories...

Totally agree to that. Not all but the good ones!

The high end crafted gear which is better than UL gear, definately should be L only BPs to keep up a balance.

That way there would still be crafting from UL BPs with the goal to drop this high end L BPs, as we have it with armatrix. I have no problem with crafting ManMPHs or Jesters or whatever else to sell just to TT, if there is the option to loot a really nice L BP, that could be worth some 100 or even thousand PED (Armatrix btw).

Anyways the existing L BPs for different things should be overworked to make it more competitive (Sheers/Bulltacs f.e.). There I totally have to agree to Alukat. This BPs are already L and totally useless items.
 
One way could be to make existing UL gear simply non competitve vs L gear over time.
Speak give us:
L FAPs that can heal 200 HP/pec (crafted)
5 DPP L guns (crafted)
85%+ efficency L guns (crafted)

aso aso

Sadly I cant see any attempt to remove or outdate old UL gear.
Says you can't see that with ArMatrix they've done exactly that? C'mon. It sure is work in progress, so far only targeted hunting gear but it was quite naturally the first section to address. And then they released a handful high-end event prizes to throw a monkey wrench again. But what would an event be without them, who would be motivated to throw so much money at it? Effectively, these items in the hands of a few whales will now have to strike a balance with the limited gear for the rest of the plebs. Everything before that is inferior now and those who continue to like it can produce shrapnel for themselves all they want, while their impact on relevant loot is reduced and if needed the screws can easily be tightened further.

Only EP is outside of this, because at some point in the past it was determined the pure gamblers needed to be isolated in their own bubble. Now we discover that we needed them as main consumers and without them everything comes to a grinding halt. What to do? Can anybody honestly claim to understand the big picture, or what the rationale is on the other side, i.e. for MA? Everybody's solutions come from their respective own angle. We're just lost and could argue over this forever. This is why I put the following question to the AMA:
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...-Compilation&p=3688821&viewfull=1#post3688821
 
Only EP is outside of this, because at some point in the past it was determined the pure gamblers needed to be isolated in their own bubble. Now we discover that we needed them as main consumers and without them everything comes to a grinding halt.

but that's because of ammo burn on amps and because of UL amps...
ND got it right on rt, none of the amps on rt has ammo burn, 50 minutes of shooting and then you need new amp, guess how much crafting that leads to ^^

I used to hunt on rt with shacka-a-lacka MK I , that's one of those amps, the 10-30 low level vixen hunters couldn't keep up with the supply of materials for making them because i was burning through them way too fast ^^
 
Says you can't see that with ArMatrix they've done exactly that? C'mon. It sure is work in progress, so far only targeted hunting gear but it was quite naturally the first section to address. And then they released a handful high-end event prizes to throw a monkey wrench again. But what would an event be without them, who would be motivated to throw so much money at it? Effectively, these items in the hands of a few whales will now have to strike a balance with the limited gear for the rest of the plebs. Everything before that is inferior now and those who continue to like it can produce shrapnel for themselves all they want, while their impact on relevant loot is reduced and if needed the screws can easily be tightened further.

I can see Armatrix, and it is really nice how it is.
Actually we have a nice demand for Armatrix and its impact on economy is visible.

What I also see, is that they already brought in more UL gear that is already better than Armatrix.

With upcoming events more of that better than Armatrix will find its way into the universe and make Armatrix less and less competitive. UL Armatrix will be more and more, simply because they always did it that way. Give us something craftable L and make it obsolete as fast as possible with introduction of UL or looted L that is way better than the crafted things.

Wouldn´t it have been worth to fight for L FEN LR-65, with lets say 1000 PED TT value and a decay of just 0.1 pec/shot. That would be 1million shots with that gun, could last a while and give some nice drops due to high efficency. But it wouldn´t be here forever, past this 1million shots it would be gone, and there would be a new event to win such a gun.

Well maybe for some people one million shots wouldn´t be enough, hell design a gun as event reward that can shoot 10million shots. Doesn´t matter, sooner or later it would be burnt out and gone.

UL gear stay forever, and thats the main problem with it.
Remember how long the Terminator was the holy gun to win events, and it is still awesome in the right hands.
With UL its so easy to break the balance, and its fairly hard to rebalance that.
Stick to long lasting L event rewards, even if it is totally out of balance it would be gone sooner or later and MA could add something better balanced for upcoming events, without messing with players investments.

We have so many UL things out of balance MA can´t get rid off, without messing with the buyers investments.
Why add more of that things.

Shifting to a pure L economy would be a long term goal!
MA cant do that over night, nor in a short period of 1 or 2 years.
It has to be a slow process.
That is what I cant see to happen in my lifetime.

Its also a problem that MA always focus on hunters.
Where is the crafting mayhams, where is the mining mayhams.
3 big events every year for the hunters, and nothing for miners and crafters.

EU has so much potential to be just awesome for all levels and all kind of players, sadly in MA office noone see that.

Fixing economy and reworking loottables, could do so many positive to EU. That in combination with less UL gear.
Doesn´t even need a lot of coding to do that, just some database entrys that need to be overworked.
 
smartest would be a crafting event where the crafters can win vouchers for more auction slots. only obtainable on bps with MU spend on though (so no ep).

at the same time make an event for miners able to win adj limited amps with like 10000 uses or something or maybe finally make some excavators that are worth it besides TT, adj and imp.
 
We have so many UL things out of balance MA can´t get rid off, without messing with the buyers investments.
Why add more of that things.

Shifting to a pure L economy would be a long term goal!
MA cant do that over night, nor in a short period of 1 or 2 years.
It has to be a slow process.
That is what I cant see to happen in my lifetime.

Its also a problem that MA always focus on hunters.
Where is the crafting mayhams, where is the mining mayhams.
3 big events every year for the hunters, and nothing for miners and crafters.

EU has so much potential to be just awesome for all levels and all kind of players, sadly in MA office noone see that.

Fixing economy and reworking loottables, could do so many positive to EU. That in combination with less UL gear.
Doesn´t even need a lot of coding to do that, just some database entrys that need to be overworked.

This should be put on a big A1 poster, bolded and hung on the wall opposite the programmers, opposite the managers, and hung directly over the board members at each meeting!!!!

Rgds

Ace
 
This should be put on a big A1 poster, bolded and hung on the wall opposite the programmers, opposite the managers, and hung directly over the board members at each meeting!!!!

Rgds

Ace

Or delivered to Henrik Nel during AMA with him in early February
 
thing is there wont ever be an AMA. at least not one with real answers to real questions.
 
Totally agree to that. Not all but the good ones!

The high end crafted gear which is better than UL gear, definately should be L only BPs to keep up a balance.

That way there would still be crafting from UL BPs with the goal to drop this high end L BPs, as we have it with armatrix. I have no problem with crafting ManMPHs or Jesters or whatever else to sell just to TT, if there is the option to loot a really nice L BP, that could be worth some 100 or even thousand PED (Armatrix btw).

Anyways the existing L BPs for different things should be overworked to make it more competitive (Sheers/Bulltacs f.e.). There I totally have to agree to Alukat. This BPs are already L and totally useless items.

Yeh Sure that makes more sense but you knew where I was going with he idea
 
That way there would still be crafting from UL BPs with the goal to drop this high end L BPs, as we have it with armatrix. I have no problem with crafting ManMPHs or Jesters or whatever else to sell just to TT, if there is the option to loot a really nice L BP, that could be worth some 100 or even thousand PED (Armatrix btw).

44k PED alt, 22k PED lyst burned so far in the attempt to loot low-rider BLP amp MK II (L) BP..... so even if they leave some higher BPs UL, there may still be a lot of ressources be burned if it's rare enough and let's not forget, once you have it, you still burn MU mats on every click ^^
 
Y'all realize that going full L also means that you pay markup for your gear at every turn. If, ideally, the market would pick up all materials produced, pay enough markup to keep hunters and miners happy, pay enough to crafters so they don't operate on a loss, then your cost will be above achievable returns again. You'll find yourself exactly where you are right now. The overarching limiting factor does not change, namely that you can only earn from other players, not from the system itself. Therefore there is no escape from the recognition that only a minority ever can profit from a majority of consumers. English has a very elegant distinction not available in many other languages: between 'anyone' and 'everyone'. Anyone can profit. But by far not everyone.

Now, where is EP's role in all this? That's the question to answer, whether arguing pro or contra.
 
Y'all realize that going full L also means that you pay markup for your gear at every turn. If, ideally, the market would pick up all materials produced, pay enough markup to keep hunters and miners happy, pay enough to crafters so they don't operate on a loss, then your cost will be above achievable returns again. You'll find yourself exactly where you are right now. The overarching limiting factor does not change, namely that you can only earn from other players, not from the system itself. Therefore there is no escape from the recognition that only a minority ever can profit from a majority of consumers. English has a very elegant distinction not available in many other languages: between 'anyone' and 'everyone'. Anyone can profit. But by far not everyone.

Now, where is EP's role in all this? That's the question to answer, whether arguing pro or contra.

thats exactly what i said a few posts before. its just an inflation. but if you inflate the prices on all ranges a bit that means you have more room for making profit via selling at the right time. if all the stuff is 120% you can easier sell it for 125% some times than you can sell some stuff thats 101% for 106%. theres just more room to squeeze out one or two percent extra that may make the difference between profit and loss
 
Now, where is EP's role in all this? That's the question to answer, whether arguing pro or contra.

maybe to have a cheap way to grind out 95% return when there was a week of shit return?
 
Y'all realize that going full L also means that you pay markup for your gear at every turn. If, ideally, the market would pick up all materials produced, pay enough markup to keep hunters and miners happy, pay enough to crafters so they don't operate on a loss, then your cost will be above achievable returns again. You'll find yourself exactly where you are right now. The overarching limiting factor does not change, namely that you can only earn from other players, not from the system itself. Therefore there is no escape from the recognition that only a minority ever can profit from a majority of consumers. English has a very elegant distinction not available in many other languages: between 'anyone' and 'everyone'. Anyone can profit. But by far not everyone.

Now, where is EP's role in all this? That's the question to answer, whether arguing pro or contra.

Thats true, there would be still winners and losers. Not everybody can profit or break even.

IMHO it would open up more niche markets where it may be easyer to break even or profit, even on lowish levels or small budget. Low component crafting, lowish mobs that actually carry zero MU in their loots. This would change! More demand for components, which results in more demand for easy to get resources (animal oils, lyst, oil aso).
It would also lead to more trading, what is always healthy for an economy and surely for MA.

The role of EP especially EP4 in that system would be the residue production mainly.
With a pure L economy the market would need shitloads of cheap residue to get full TT items and EP4 can deliver that.
 
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The role of EP especially EP4 in that system would be the residue production mainly.
With a pure L economy the market would need shitloads of cheap residue to get full TT items and EP4 can deliver that.

This is what ND told me (public chat) when EP4 BP dropped and Alt mu dropped. That MA wanted to drop cost of play and if you look how mu have dropped over the board. It is cheaper to play, but a lot harder to profit, but of cause if 1 player profits at least 2 players are losing more.
 
when crafting ep id differentiate between the different bp levels.

ep1 for low level skilling is ok imo. quite similar to tt weapon with tt ammo or tt finder with tt probes.

ep2 may have the same reason to exist.

ep3 is borderline imo but even that might be okay, regarding 2 ped per click is not too much difference from an F101 with 1,5 ped per drop on treasure.

ep4 is far away from ok. its similar to using a level 13 or terra 10 amp from TT or a huge ass gun. so to speak its endgame content coming from TT. yes, you need to buy the bp once but the price for it is far away from those of the guns giving enough dps to hunt 20 ped per kill mobs and for the mining amps you always have to pay markup, generally around 120%. so why should crafters get all this basically for TT? vastly unfair and needs to be removed. if they wanne gamble they should pay MU like everyone else does as well.

for supplying explosive projectiles the ep1-3 bps are by far big enough


Nailed it. 100% correct and wanted such a solution!
 
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