Petition to remove Explosive BPs (or change them) - Part 2

Alukat123 said:

It's not just to keep EP IV alive, literally every craft works like EP IV ^^

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Well, perhaps, this new Swedish gambling act affects the whole EU platform, maybe we are talking about keeping Entropia alive. That is why I want to ask Henrik if MindArk lawyers studied new act deep enough to secure players avatars and their value.

We just need to know it and upcoming AMA is great opportunity to sort those things out.

All I can do say for now is that possibly Swedish Gambling Authority is performing audits on various companies who provide services which allow to bet something with financial value in order to get something with greater financial value and is determined by chance. Such "aftercare" happens when authority introduces new law. They check if all business entities understand and follow new law. I want Henrik to answer if such audit applies also to Enropia.

When I look at Explosive Projectiles I get the feeling that in fact they will audit EU platform sooner or later.

regards,
boring_player

boring_player said:

Well, perhaps, this new Swedish gambling act affects the whole EU platform, maybe we are talking about keeping Entropia alive.

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depends, if MA has a mechanic in place that garantuees the player is at 95-97% return after x months, then it won't be much of a gamble, because of the guarantee to win, wouldn't it?

Alukat123 said:

depends, if MA has a mechanic in place that garantuees the player is at 95-97% return after x months, then it won't be much of a gamble, because of the guarantee to win, wouldn't it?

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you mean a guarantee to lose

Alukat123 said:

depends, if MA has a mechanic in place that garantuees the player is at 95-97% return after x months, then it won't be much of a gamble, because of the guarantee to win, wouldn't it?

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Register to any on-line casino and play some slot machines. I gamble with Unibet on-line casino and they provide information about Return To Player rate. It is 95% on slots I use. I guess it is a legal requirement. I mostly play Starburst developed by NetEnt.

Difference is that MindArk does not provide full info here although they provided some data after Loot 2.0 that someone who wagered 10k+ USD got on average circa 95,5% RTP.

So, a guarantee that player will have any % back in the long run is in fact part of a gambling experience.

Another difference is than on-line casinos like Unibet provide slot machines that are audited by independent gambling authorities and the return to player ratio is confirmed. MA provides nothing except saying that "it is dynamic".

To me, loot is nothing more than Return To Player system. Difference is that it is not only slot machine, but the whole real cash economy so you can increase your winnings with markup.

But in terms of the basic value, a fraction on wagered money (approx 3%) always go to MindArk. Casino always wins in long run.

Sorry MA loot algorythm wouldn't qualify as gambling.

boring_player said:

So, a guarantee that player will have any % back in the long run is in fact part of a gambling experience.

Another difference is than on-line casinos like Unibet provide slot machines that are audited by independent gambling authorities and the return to player ratio is confirmed. MA provides nothing except saying that "it is dynamic".

To me, loot is nothing more than Return To Player system. Difference is that it is not only slot machine, but the whole real cash economy so you can increase your winnings with markup.

But in terms of the basic value, a fraction on wagered money (approx 3%) always go to MindArk. Casino always wins in long run.

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One main difference I see with a casino, is casino does not use knowledge or skills to play. Neither does it allow you to use tools. We have tools such as sales statistics and mu statistics given to us by the game. We also have tools made by players. In a casino, knowledge is illegal. they discover you with systems, and they throw you out.

For that reason i think EP must be eliminated. Because not collaborate with idea of a virtual world economy based on mu working and knowledgement. It is possible to say 3% is our pay by an entertainment service, because we only can win with mu inside a virtual world. In a productive chain of value, EP have not use, because is pure gambling. (Confirmation of this is while hunters and miners are playing searching mu, ep crafters only are searching prizes like uberloots or aths)

Xavier_Jr said:

One main difference I see with a casino, is casino does not use knowledge or skills to play. Neither does it allow you to use tools. We have tools such as sales statistics and mu statistics given to us by the game. We also have tools made by players. In a casino, knowledge is illegal. they discover you with systems, and they throw you out.

For that reason i think EP must be eliminated. Because not collaborate with idea of a virtual world economy based on mu and knowledgement. It is possible to say 3% is our pay by an entertainment service, because we only can win with mu inside a virtual world. In a productive chain of value, EP have not use, because is pure gambling.

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well seems you certainly dont know professional poker players, blackjack card counter pros or roulette pros. they all use tactics and knowledge to "tt" profit with it easily.

and those systems arent illegal. they are just unwanted by the casino. but its no difference to EU where an exploiter who exploits the system to "steal" peds from MA gets banned.

WildD3mon said:

this is killing the market and the game , i wonder how much MA are winning on this that they still dont do shit about it

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like with the pirating - they must be making some percentage.

you know what else is killing the game - loot 2.0 type communist solutions like everyone gets the share, no one can hunt wrong and eco doesn't matter nor does overkill. meanwhile the ubers still find the advantages and the nubees still get small potatoes.

TheGaijin said:

they are just unwanted by the casino. but its no difference to EU where an exploiter who exploits the system to "steal" peds from MA gets banned.

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It is very diferent. You are who want to see equivalences. Casino dont give you tools to count cards! By other hand, Steal is not permited in any system.
EP must be eliminated because only serve to demonstrate pure gambling. EP is the most big risk for EU and sweden laws. And why we must continue supporting EP? For 2 or 3 casino players? No, man is a very bad bussiness for the community

actually i think it's not the EP blueprint that is the real problem, as it's just another resource in EU, and even a weapon ammo type.

there is zero reason, why someone who owns a fat rocketlauncher shouldn't be able to craft himself 1k ped EP in a few minutes, while gun users can buy ammo or melee users can repair their weapon at the terminals in a few seconds.

in my humble opinion, the real problem of EU crafting is the condition slider. it doesn't really matter if it's EP, lasersights, fat mining amps, the higher level simple components, or even high tt textures. it's all the same, somehow!

make it quantity all the time, and the big gambling is gone. thoughts?

There is no way to compare decay of a weapon, armor, fap, atachments and enhancers UL or L with requirements of BP EP.

Firstly, all hunting tools have MU always. An UL hunting tool of equivalent level of EP4, pays MU for one or two years in advance, and usually represents an important amount in ped. Although, an EP Crafter can say that does not matter, but it matters since nobody gives it to you for free. Besides MU of the UL Tools of hunters and miners move rapidly the economy, because is received directly by players. While, the expenses of EP crafting, goes directly to MA.

Secondly, Hunters and Miners playing the game searching MU, because they knows game, to long time, will charge them with a tax of 5%-7%, and they will lose if they do not look for MU to compensate that. By other hand, EP Crafters knows MU of EP is ridiculous (+1%) and never will compensate the 5 to 7% of loses, thats because only very few people wants to buy EPs (besides could be sell in trade terminal like other ammo!). Therefore, EP Crafters playing searching only uberloot or ath, and thats is a pure gambling game style.

could add me to the list...
I am not going to read all the pages but here is my suggestion,

1. soul bound nanocubes
2. all universal ammo to be refined to nanocubes and nanocubes refined to universal ammo
3. wait 2 months
4. remove nanocubes from the tt
5. add universal ammo to TT for 105%

*no need to change or remove the bps.

Bonus:
1. Add laser and blp ammo bps as well
2. wait a year
3. remove laser and blp ammo from tt
(now the cycle of life starts with melee and goes through crafting and ranged)

narfi said:

could add me to the list...
I am not going to read all the pages but here is my suggestion,

1. soul bound nanocubes
2. all universal ammo to be refined to nanocubes and nanocubes refined to universal ammo
3. wait 2 months
4. remove nanocubes from the tt
5. add universal ammo to TT for 105%

*no need to change or remove the bps.

Bonus:
1. Add laser and blp ammo bps as well
2. wait a year
3. remove laser and blp ammo from tt
(now the cycle of life starts with melee and goes through crafting and ranged)

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May not a bad idea! Not sure MA like that, but yea.

I think ep 3 and ep 4 need also some more resources to be able for crafting. So it realy also push the economy a bit more. (EP 3-4 realy looks like big gambling or like a slotmachine)

Xavier_Jr said:

But the real problem is this: EP crafting is pure gambling and thats could be danger for the game considering new persperspectives from sweden laws.
Finally, many players have signed this petition.

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Hmm shooting Eomons 10hrs a day is not gambling but clicking EP4 is gambling, I really dont get this!

Xavier_Jr said:

Everything in hunting have MU and DECAY

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If I go to repair terminal to rep my UL armor, fap, weapon and amps, there is no MU, its just the TT nothing more.

Please explain where UL gear has MU when you use it.
sidenote: I dont need to buy UL gear, I can also borrow it from friends, just need to have the collateral.

Xavier_Jr said:

There is no way to compare decay of a weapon, armor, fap, atachments and enhancers UL or L with requirements of BP EP.

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Comparing L to UL, you are correct. However comparing decay on those weapons/tools,etc that are UL and are repaired using repair terminal? Well that is a straight TT machine so it does compare....decay goes into your cost to kill, BP's don't decay but they still have a cost to click. The only way you can say it doesn't compare is if that decay is not accounted for in loot (which MA have said it is part of the equation).

Xavier_Jr said:

Firstly, all hunting tools have MU always. An UL hunting tool of equivalent level of EP4, pays MU for one or two years in advance, and usually represents an important amount in ped. Although, an EP Crafter can say that does not matter, but it matters since nobody gives it to you for free.

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No one gives out EP3/4 BP's for free either, they have MU, granted its no where as high as hunting weapons, but those weapons are highly inflated (anyone thinking they are not are delusional). I will say there is generally more EP4 BP's around than some of those UL weapons so that is why the MU of those BP's are lower. If there were less then you can be sure that the cost for them would be quite high.
However those UL weapons and the BP's still do have value and can be sold later. Yes most will sell for less, others may sell for more....but that is the market, it however does not account for the fact that you could use an UL weapon for 6months with just TT input and then turn around and sell that weapon for the same price to someone else. While using that weapon, you are spending TT only provided you are not using any L attachments/enhancers, etc.

Xavier_Jr said:

Besides MU of the UL Tools of hunters and miners move rapidly the economy, because is received directly by players. While, the expenses of EP crafting, goes directly to MA.

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I think your confusing things, expenses of UL weapons (ammo)/ UL Finders (Probes), etc are the same as the expenses of EP crafting (Nanocubes), all come from the TT machine, so thats directly to MA.

GoNi said:

Please explain where UL gear has MU when you use it.
sidenote: I dont need to buy UL gear, I can also borrow it from friends, just need to have the collateral.

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For example, when you bought an armor to +15k peds or +25k peds, you have payed MU in advance for one or two years. You dont want see that , but is MU, so simple like that.

Now, Can you explain to us, how EP crafting collaborates to existence of our Virtual World? That litle part have no explained by any EP Crafters. Because it is only highly visible EP Crafting is pure gambling.

Darth Revan said:

I think your confusing things, expenses of UL weapons (ammo)/ UL Finders (Probes), etc are the same as the expenses of EP crafting (Nanocubes), all come from the TT machine, so thats directly to MA.

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The MU of a UL Weapon or UL Finders or UL amplifiers exists, You can think it is "inflated" however, hunters and miners calculate the MU of high level UL equipment in this way:

MU of tool L equivalent x Amount of L tools that a specialist can use in one or two years.

Example, if you can break an L tool in 6 hours of continuous use, multiply the cost of the MU of that tool by 4x365x2 = 2920. Then if the MU of L tool is 50 ped, you will get 146k ped. A high-level amplifier of mining can cost that amount and is not inflated.

Xavier_Jr said:

The MU of a UL Weapon or UL Finders or UL amplifiers exists, You can think it is "inflated" however, hunters and miners calculate the MU of high level UL equipment in this way:

MU of tool L equivalent x Amount of L tools that a specialist can use in one or two years.

Example, if you can break an L tool in 6 hours of continuous use, multiply the cost of the MU of that tool by 4x365x2 = 2920. Then if the MU of L tool is 50 ped, you will get 146k ped. A high-level amplifier of mining can cost that amount and is not inflated.

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I understand that, but at the end of the 2 year span, they could turn around and sell that item for the same amount they paid for it, or more or less (depending on whether MA bring out something that ruins the items value)....same thing can be said for EP4, its value being far lower still has the same principle...after 1 year of use, they can turn around and sell it for the same/higher/lower depending on whether MA bring out something that ruins the items value.

Whether an items value is inflated is a different talk for another thread, i'm just pointing out the fact that when we are comparing UL to UL, you cant use the MU you paid for that UL into the equation. Otherwise you might as well say that EP4 uses MU as well, since the cost to obtain the BP (as low as it is compared to some weapon/tools) is greater than the TT value of the BP. Just because you take into account the MU of the item for ROI purposes, doesn't take away that while using that item, its purely TT.

Xavier_Jr said:

For example, when you bought an armor to +15k peds or +25k peds, you have payed MU in advance for one or two years. You dont want see that , but is MU, so simple like that.

Now, Can you explain to us, how EP crafting collaborates to existence of our Virtual World? That litle part have no explained by any EP Crafters. Because it is only highly visible EP Crafting is pure gambling.

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If I buy Adj. Millitary at +2k PED, use it for 2 month and sell it for +2k PED, I paid not a pec MU.

All that I have cycled is TT.

When I borrow a MM and give 100k PED collateral, use it for a while and give it back, getting back my 100k PED collateral, I paid zero pec MU, all I spent was pure TT.

No matter if I borrow or buy and sell when enough used, I don´t pay MU.

If you say the devaluation is paid MU in advance, the devaluation is caused by MA pumping more and more and more UL shit into the game. That kills the MU and devaluates existing weapons.
Its not the weak economy and not EP IV BP.

I remember times when weapons prices went up and up and up for month/years, untill we reached a peak and prices started to drop. Its inflated prices, made by players/resellers. Its good that this prices drop, so gear gets available to players that are not damn rich, to players that simply can´t deposit 2ooo$ for a gun, simply because they are students, or jobless in RL or whatever reason they may have to be not in the position to afford 20k PED for a gun.

Telling people that using UL gear is good for economy, speak consuming MU, is a simple lie. There is zero MU to pay when using UL. Only thing UL is doing is flooding the market with resources, that drop existing MU close to zero, as there is simply no demand for anything crafted.

And once again:

Clicking something else than EP in crafting is paying MU for every click!
For a UL users that would mean, paying MU for the AMMO. But there is no MU for AMMO, so they don´t pay MU!

Get your damn facts right!

Xavier_Jr said:

Example, if you can break an L tool in 6 hours of continuous use, multiply the cost of the MU of that tool by 4x365x2 = 2920. Then if the MU of L tool is 50 ped, you will get 146k ped. A high-level amplifier of mining can cost that amount and is not inflated.

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Oh I did that too. Just with smaller numbers, and the MU I saved for L amps paid my UL amp in the first year.
Well I bought that amp over 10 years ago, it has paid in the first year, but still use that amp 10 years.
Where do I pay any MU in this ten years using that amp.

I use it fairly much, not daily as I dont play daily but when I hunt I use it.

Same can be said for my UL weapons and armors.
My 10 years old Gremlin, Salamander, T-Bird, Boar and all the other UL gear I have, paid back in saved markups long long time ago.
Since I hit that point I dont pay a pec MU when doing a hunt.
All I pay for hunting is TT, its even less than TT when I buy shrapnels at 100.5% and convert it to 101% ammo.

For the mining amps, yes the MU the miners paid is ok. A good calculation.
So the guy who bought L5 UL amp at 150k PED 10 years ago and used it daily. The MU he saved on UL amps paid back in lets say 2 years, but he still got this amp today, speak 10 years later. So he didn´t pay a pec MU the last 8 years. And on top of that, he can sell the UL L5 amp today at 150k PED, and paid nothing in MU.

GoNi said:

If I buy Adj. Millitary at +2k PED, use it for 2 month and sell it for +2k PED, I paid not a pec MU.

All that I have cycled is TT.

When I borrow a MM and give 100k PED collateral, use it for a while and give it back, getting back my 100k PED collateral, I paid zero pec MU, all I spent was pure TT.

No matter if I borrow or buy and sell when enough used, I don´t pay MU.

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In economics there is a term called opportunity cost. It means that if you have money tied up which could earn more interest invested somewhere else, that lost interest is the cost of the opportunity you couldn't take. In our context, this would most likely be the interest on deeds you couldn't invest in while you have your money tied up in an item. Same if you have to take money out of your RL account which you cannot invest in anything interest-bearing for the time being. It is real, tangible cost even if you didn't see it leaving your pocket outright.

San said:

In economics there is a term called opportunity cost. It means that if you have money tied up which could earn more interest invested somewhere else, that lost interest is the cost of the opportunity you couldn't take. In our context, this would most likely be the interest on deeds you couldn't invest in while you have your money tied up in an item. Same if you have to take money out of your RL account which you cannot invest in anything interest-bearing for the time being. It is real, tangible cost even if you didn't see it leaving your pocket outright.

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but those missed interests from deeds are significantly lower than the gain from binding that money to that item.
Anyway, even if there's opportunity costs, that still doesn't change the fact of UL users only pumping up the economy with ressources while not taking any ressources out of the economy which causes the MU of ressources to go close to 100% in the long run.

Read EULA & ToU. MindArk officialy do not allow people to gamble

Gambling activities are expressly forbidden in the Entropia Universe.

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Rules of Conduct for EU, point #14

Why is it forbidden? Because it is possible. Explosive Projectiles crafting makes it possible. And tons of players do not follow that rule crafting Explosive Projectiles every day for hours since it was introduced.

Why then MindArk does not warn/ban those accounts for breaking the rules? When I do 5-6 hours gaming sessions I can see the same two or three avas making globals and wins on Explosive Projectiles every 20 seconds. What is it then? Not gambling?

Or maybe you just call it "crafting" to bypass the need of gambling license? Do you think that such avoidance will stay unnoticed? That you can give 16 years old people possibility to gamble in "virtual economy gaming platform".

People bet 2USD constantly and make thousands of spins on gambling machines, casino slots called crafting machines. I do not care about markup influence or economy influence. They are ruining people by making them addicted. They provide them "game" that hides casino it it. People who click Explosive Projectiles IV think that it is just innocent gaming but Explosive Projetiles IV gambling is probably ruining their lives and mental health.

This is truly disgusting. MindArk is gaining profits on activity that can potentially be highly addictive. They do not track the situation - they do not see that many players gamble on Explosive Projectiles daily . They officialy forbid the gambling in their game although they do nothing when many players do actually gamble.

Why do they spend 5-6 hours daily carfting Explosive Projectiles Henrik? Because players need ammo? Are you that childish? Your product allows people to conduct uncontrolled gambling activities without meeting any legal requirements . How can you live with the knowledge that this gambling could put many people in miserable addiction and potentially ruin their home budget. You allow them to do that without any clear information about risk and return-to-player ratio. Money you make on this is filthy money. Your greed in unmeasurable.

You do not control Explosive Projectile crafting at all. You forbid gambling in your "game" and still allow it.

Nanocubes, blueprints distance the experience form real world cassino slot machine but what is behind the door is pure gambling machine. Destructive, addictive, filthy hidden. It is like a demon dressed up as an angel. You cannot just let it be like this.

crafting, hunting & mining, all those 3 professions are gambling, why your obsession with EP IV? xD

Explosive Projectile is just best example - level IV is a 2 usd bet, nanocube is a casino token, crafting machine is a slot machine. You approach the machine and gamble. If I am not correct here I want Henrik to prove me wrong during AMA.

I stick to EP IV example because imho amoing all activities in game, this one is the closest to pure gambling but yes, hunting or mining - those things are a bit different although carry similar characteristics.

But it is easy to claim that weapon is important, enhancers, armor etc...
What I actually see, when hunting, crafting or mining you always bet an item with financial value in order to have a chance of winning other ithem with higher financial value.

Pure gambling & lottery.

You can add me to the list. I love using rocket launchers but hate the fact that I have to pay MU on the ammo and My crafting skills are not good enough to do anything above EP i. Let me buy my ammo from the trade terminal please

Markup markup markup…..


Everything should have Markup this is what drives economies... if you refuse to pass on your own Costs and undercut everyone around you... you will end up broke or in a broken economy...

What do we have? Oh yes a broken economy... why? Because of the stupid few who refuse to pass on the MU and try to undercut the other crafter... your MU argument doesn't stack up any how.. your not selling the explosives so your not really crafting... you are gambling…

Markup should be passed on to the next who buys it... plus your time... or what you think your value add is...

MU is totally not the issue here we are not calling for EP I -> III to be removed (you get to keep your "MU" free crafting BP) we are saying that the EPIV is stupid and clearly here for the gamblers...

Post_History said:

Markup markup markup…..


Everything should have Markup this is what drives economies... if you refuse to pass on your own Costs and undercut everyone around you... you will end up broke or in a broken economy...

What do we have? Oh yes a broken economy... why? Because of the stupid few who refuse to pass on the MU and try to undercut the other crafter... your MU argument doesn't stack up any how.. your not selling the explosives so your not really crafting... you are gambling…

Markup should be passed on to the next who buys it... plus your time... or what you think your value add is...

MU is totally not the issue here we are not calling for EP I -> III to be removed (you get to keep your "MU" free crafting BP) we are saying that the EPIV is stupid and clearly here for the gamblers...

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and when gamblers start gambling with regular crafts they still send it to the tt... only change is that hunter/miners may get 20-50 PED profit per 100 PED spend and that's what the EP IV removal really is about, isn't it?

i mean... you could completely destroy MA with just making a detailed report about the game and show how its dangerous for gambling addicts and then send it to the US government and the gambling authorities in the US.
Then look out for an NGO that progresses against gambling and send it to them too to make then pressure the government even more. It wouldnt even take 12 months for them to ban EU for americans and then its goodbye Mindark.