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Petition to remove Explosive BPs (or change them) - Part 2

San said:
NO. Never, ever simply remove items in players' possession. This would be a dam break and cardinal sin. We know of one acrimonious instance and don't want to see them exercise their powers in this way ever again.
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or keep the existing one and give them the no longer drops treatment.

San said:
They have recently overhauled the loot system to make efficiency count, and then introduced a series of purely limited, craftable items with superior efficiency outmoding most items in existence, limited and unlimited. As a crafter, you should see that these measures are all directed to serve exactly your position.
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loot overhaul based on efficiency was good. but introducing new BPs while the old ones still can be looted but are still tt-food was crap. The stock of worthless bulltac/shear BPs is growing....

They could have done that a lot better...
 
I understand that markup discussion is closely related to EP "crafting" although I'd like also to focus Henrik's attention on possible gambling aspect, highly addictive and very dangerous.

Example:


Avatar Henrik Jerkrot Nel joins the game, he lands in Camp Icarus with zero skills and zero money. He deposits 10,000 USD and starts his "gaming" experience:

  • He claims he wants to start Explosive Projectiles crafting - many people tell him it requires years of skills gaining and some game knowledge - that is why he directly goes to Auction, buy skills and becomes level 50 crafter in less than 30 minutes.
  • Then he buys all 4 levels of Explosive Projectile blueprints - all QR100 on auction - availability of them is sufficient to buy them straight away. 4 blueprints represent four bet levels - level 1 is 0,002 USD per spin, level 2 is 0,02 USD per spin, level 3 is 0,2 USD per spin and level 4 is 2 USD per spin.
  • He also needs the gambling tokens - he approaches Trade Terminal and buys 3000 USD worth "Nanocubes" aka gambling tokens.
  • Then he proceeds to "crafting machine" aka slot machine and chooses high risk scenario - condition "crafting"
  • He is too lazy to click on the slot machine every 3 seconds, that is why he chooses autoplay option - same as on other casino slot machines.
  • 3000 USD of tokens allows him to perform 1500 spins. Henrik is happy, he starts gambling:
  • On his 245th attempt he wins 34950 PED of Explosive Projectiles item. He was lucky - winning was determined by chance. He is happy. He exchanges the Explosive Projectiles in Trade Terminal to in-game currency and then decides to withdraw his winnings. After some time 3495 USD lands on his bank account.


Why this is not treated as a direct gambling? There is fixed amount of a bet - 2USD. You bet an item with financial value to have a chance of winning other item with higher financial value. New CEO must answer this questions. He must provide logical explanation why EP IV still exists in game. Also, how do they cope with new legal requirements regarding gambling. They had to ban the StrongBoxes in Sweden. Are they sure they do not need any lottery/gambling license to run this thing in 2019?

This is very important. We see a significant change in attitude to in-game gambling activities. Some countries banned Lootboxes, some other want to do that. I am afraid MindArk could face some legal repercussions because of Explosive Projectiles which could directly influence players in-game wallets.
 
boring_player said:
I understand that markup discussion is closely related to EP "crafting" although I'd like also to focus Henrik's attention on possible gambling aspect, highly addictive and very dangerous.

Example:


Avatar Henrik Jerkrot Nel joins the game, he lands in Camp Icarus with zero skills and zero money. He deposits 10,000 USD and starts his "gaming" experience:

  • He claims he wants to start Explosive Projectiles crafting - many people tell him it requires years of skills gaining and some game knowledge - that is why he directly goes to Auction, buy skills and becomes level 50 crafter in less than 30 minutes.
  • Then he buys all 4 levels of Explosive Projectile blueprints - all QR100 on auction - availability of them is sufficient to buy them straight away. 4 blueprints represent four bet levels - level 1 is 0,002 USD per spin, level 2 is 0,02 USD per spin, level 3 is 0,2 USD per spin and level 4 is 2 USD per spin.
  • He also needs the gambling tokens - he approaches Trade Terminal and buys 3000 USD worth "Nanocubes" aka gambling tokens.
  • Then he proceeds to "crafting machine" aka slot machine and chooses high risk scenario - condition "crafting"
  • He is too lazy to click on the slot machine every 3 seconds, that is why he chooses autoplay option - same as on other casino slot machines.
  • 3000 USD of tokens allows him to perform 1500 spins. Henrik is happy, he starts gambling:
  • On his 245th attempt he wins 34950 PED of Explosive Projectiles item. He was lucky - winning was determined by chance. He is happy. He exchanges the Explosive Projectiles in Trade Terminal to in-game currency and then decides to withdraw his winnings. After some time 3495 USD lands on his bank account.


Why this is not treated as a direct gambling? There is fixed amount of a bet - 2USD. You bet an item with financial value to have a chance of winning other item with higher financial value. New CEO must answer this questions. He must provide logical explanation why EP IV still exists in game. Also, how do they cope with new legal requirements regarding gambling. They had to ban the StrongBoxes in Sweden. Are they sure they do not need any lottery/gambling license to run this thing in 2019?

This is very important. We see a significant change in attitude to in-game gambling activities. Some countries banned Lootboxes, some other want to do that. I am afraid MindArk could face some legal repercussions because of Explosive Projectiles which could directly influence players in-game wallets.
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100% agree....

and another way that this story could play out....

Example:


Avatar Henrik Jerkrot Nel joins the game, he lands in Camp Icarus with zero skills and zero money. He deposits 10,000 USD and starts his "gaming" experience:

  • He claims he wants to start Explosive Projectiles crafting - many people tell him it requires years of skills gaining and some game knowledge - that is why he directly goes to Auction, buy skills and becomes level 50 crafter in less than 30 minutes.
  • Then he buys all 4 levels of Explosive Projectile blueprints - all QR100 on auction - availability of them is sufficient to buy them straight away. 4 blueprints represent four bet levels - level 1 is 0,002 USD per spin, level 2 is 0,02 USD per spin, level 3 is 0,2 USD per spin and level 4 is 2 USD per spin.
  • He also needs the gambling tokens - he approaches Trade Terminal and buys 3000 USD worth "Nanocubes" aka gambling tokens.
  • Then he proceeds to "crafting machine" aka slot machine and chooses high risk scenario - condition "crafting"
  • He is too lazy to click on the slot machine every 3 seconds, that is why he chooses autoplay option - same as on other casino slot machines.
  • 3000 USD of tokens allows him to perform 1500 spins. Henrik is happy, he starts gambling:
  • On his 245th attempt he wins 34950 PED of Explosive Projectiles item. He was lucky - winning was determined by chance. He is happy. Now knowing he can bet such amounts he then deposits more money taking out a mortgage against his house (has been done in this very game) and looses it all... Gambling addiction is a scourge to ALL societies be it virtual or in real life.
 
Alukat forgot to mention FAPs.

Why craft Vivo T5/10/15 -- S10 is artifically free from gauntlet
Why craft Vvio 125/200 --- to many Imp/Mod EKs

Why craft armors lower than Lich --- List of looted UL would be to long to post here.

Why craft any weapon/amp that are not Armatrix (ok, to drop armatrix BPs LOL)

And on top, why we have paid thousands of PEDs to buy BPs from Weapons book II, when needed components have been removed from loot completely.

MA made a complete BP book obsolete to by removing generic components from loot. WHY ?????

Where do I get my money back for the Rutic/Kesmek/Aspis and whatever BPs I have bought ???=?????
 
GoNi said:
Alukat forgot to mention FAPs.

Why craft Vivo T5/10/15 -- S10 is artifically free from gauntlet
Why craft Vvio 125/200 --- to many Imp/Mod EKs

Why craft armors lower than Lich --- List of looted UL would be to long to post here.

Why craft any weapon/amp that are not Armatrix (ok, to drop armatrix BPs LOL)

And on top, why we have paid thousands of PEDs to buy BPs from Weapons book II, when needed components have been removed from loot completely.

MA made a complete BP book obsolete to by removing generic components from loot. WHY ?????

Where do I get my money back for the Rutic/Kesmek/Aspis and whatever BPs I have bought ???=?????
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not sure how this relates to a BP that offers no mark up to the crafter and requires no input from the outside world (resource gathering) but from the trade terminal... you cannot make something from nothing
 
LeelooM said:
Those crafting EP are only after an biggy/ATH that might never come and feeding the game ..... so let them click

What's gonna be next??? Petition to remove amp 13 also cause they might get a ATH and spend peds for it?

I know people that clicked those EP night and day and yes they did get a biggy, but not much more than they ever spend ....

Think again
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EP1 has another, in my view much more savory use: Monria has a daily mission which rewards a fat chunk of Engineering skill for 500 crafting successes. For a new player who has not yet met very many people and is not yet familiar with shops, Monria can also be the devil herself to find crafting materials on. EP1 provides a lovely solution.
As a side bonus, Monria's lowest mob (Shoggoth) is extremely well suited to being hunted using explosives.
All of this creates a lovely local atmoshpere for lowbies on Monria, alternating the daily with some stupidly chaotic shoggoth fun, and perhaps some mothership repair too. This helps place Monria where it can compete more fairly with the planets.
 
Post_History said:
Interesting thought... If they remove Ammo from the TT that would make Crafting explosive's non gambling and Productive and would also drive MU in the whole economy...

I kind of like that idea.... and that would fix the issue of it being seen as gabling… but as it is currently... ITS GABLING!!! why?

As it has been outlined time and time again in this thread…

It is the only BP to exists that has four tiers that produce the exact same item...
It is the only BP that uses one Item and that one Item is available from the Trade Terminal...
This item can just be seen as a TOKEN to play the Crafting machine (reads Slot machine)

@GoNi and others who have argued the same point....
Its not about making the crafter pay MU... its about creating a healthy economy... crafters that sell below cost are the problem... if you don't want to loose PEDs crafting... as someone under cuts you... don't craft it?
MU is what we all want its what we all need... sure some people will end up picking up the tab but it don't have to be you.

Problem I see in the community is everybody wants it NOW... they don't care for waiting...


Two Options now that I see thanks to Funky...

Remove/Heavily modify they way EP IV works...

or

Remove all Ammunition from the Trade terminal...
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You know, as much of a hassle as it sounded at first gander, I'm really beginning to like this business of removing ammo from the TT. But - and I'm not sure why - a blueprint with no non-TT materials just doesn't sit right. And I'm not entirely sure making Shrapnel the only source of the other ammos would sit right either. We have a crafting system that supports immersive complexity, why not take advantage of it by making all ammo craftable, with multi-material blueprints? Say maybe shrapnel and sweat or something similar to that (that example even makes logical sense for EP & BLP). Then we will have incorporated ammo into the market and the market will take care of itself.

Alternately, I think it would be at least as much fun to just make universal ammo work in all weapons. It boils down to what kind of a game do we really want to play? WoW used to have craftable ammo and the outcome of that trial was all ammo was standardized to one type, bought from its equivalent of a TT.
 
GoNi said:
And this is complete BS!

Most hunters own UL gear, weapons aswell armors, they dont need to pay MU to grind with high eco IMKII or MM.
Top end hunters now own the FEN UL guns.

Sure during events they add enhancers and eat pills that cost MU, but its events.
So where is the events for the crafters where you can win an item thats value is 20k+ PEDs or even a lot more if you look at FEN guns.

Crafting EP has artifically no MU, so it may be considered gambling. Other say its skilling.

Going with IMKIIs or MMs or new UL guns vs big mobs you can loot a lot of nice MU, which simply does not exist in EP, so why is it unfair if you can do it for TT input only, when all hunters have the same option to do that.

In mining not that much UL amps exist, but there is some around, where you also dont have to pay MU to go high stakes.

Why the hell this comunity always wants to force crafters to pay MU to the others while all others can play (skill, gamble doesn´t matter how you call it) without a pec MU ???
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so you are saying i can get an imk2 from TT or for 2k peds (the top price for a qr 100 ep4 bp)? nice. didnt know that. thanks. mustve been some hidden tab in the tt where this uber gear is.
 
boring_player said:
Example:


Avatar Henrik Jerkrot Nel joins the game, he lands in Camp Icarus with zero skills and zero money. He deposits 10,000 USD and starts his "gaming" experience:

  • He claims he wants to start Explosive Projectiles crafting - many people tell him it requires years of skills gaining and some game knowledge - that is why he directly goes to Auction, buy skills and becomes level 50 crafter in less than 30 minutes.
  • Then he buys all 4 levels of Explosive Projectile blueprints - all QR100 on auction - availability of them is sufficient to buy them straight away. 4 blueprints represent four bet levels - level 1 is 0,002 USD per spin, level 2 is 0,02 USD per spin, level 3 is 0,2 USD per spin and level 4 is 2 USD per spin.
  • He also needs the gambling tokens - he approaches Trade Terminal and buys 3000 USD worth "Nanocubes" aka gambling tokens.
  • Then he proceeds to "crafting machine" aka slot machine and chooses high risk scenario - condition "crafting"
  • He is too lazy to click on the slot machine every 3 seconds, that is why he chooses autoplay option - same as on other casino slot machines.
  • 3000 USD of tokens allows him to perform 1500 spins. Henrik is happy, he starts gambling:
  • On his 245th attempt he wins 34950 PED of Explosive Projectiles item. He was lucky - winning was determined by chance. He is happy. He exchanges the Explosive Projectiles in Trade Terminal to in-game currency and then decides to withdraw his winnings. After some time 3495 USD lands on his bank account.
Click to expand...

Hunting version:

Avatar Henrik Jerkrot Nel joins the game, he lands in Camp Icarus with zero skills and zero money. He deposits 10,000 USD and starts his "gaming" experience:
  • He claims he wants to start hunting big mobs - many people tell him it requires years of skills gaining and some game knowledge - that is why he directly goes to Auction, buy skills and becomes level 70 hunter in less than 30 minutes.
  • Then he buys UL gun, armor, fap, amp on auction - availability of them is sufficient to buy them straight away.
  • He also needs the gambling tokens - he approaches Trade Terminal and buys 3000 USD worth "weapon cells or BLP packs" aka gambling tokens.
  • Then he proceeds to the mob aka slot machine and chooses high risk scenario - 20+ PED per kill mobs
  • He is too lazy to click evey shot manually every couple seconds, that is why he chooses autoplay option - same as on other casino slot machines.
  • 3000 USD of tokens allows him to perform 1500 kills. Henrik is happy, he starts gambling:
  • On his 245th attempt he wins 20000 PED of shrapnell. He was lucky - winning was determined by chance. He is happy. He exchanges the shrapnell in Trade Terminal to in-game currency and then decides to withdraw his winnings. After some time 2000 USD lands on his bank account.

Post_History said:
not sure how this relates to a BP that offers no mark up to the crafter and requires no input from the outside world (resource gathering) but from the trade terminal... you cannot make something from nothing
Click to expand...

because with UL gear you don't need input from the outside world either.
 
Alukat123 said:
Hunting version:

Avatar Henrik Jerkrot Nel joins the game, he lands in Camp Icarus with zero skills and zero money. He deposits 10,000 USD and starts his "gaming" experience:
  • He claims he wants to start hunting big mobs - many people tell him it requires years of skills gaining and some game knowledge - that is why he directly goes to Auction, buy skills and becomes level 70 hunter in less than 30 minutes.
  • Then he buys UL gun, armor, fap, amp on auction - availability of them is sufficient to buy them straight away.
  • He also needs the gambling tokens - he approaches Trade Terminal and buys 3000 USD worth "weapon cells or BLP packs" aka gambling tokens.
  • Then he proceeds to the mob aka slot machine and chooses high risk scenario - 20+ PED per kill mobs
  • He is too lazy to click evey shot manually every couple seconds, that is why he chooses autoplay option - same as on other casino slot machines.
  • 3000 USD of tokens allows him to perform 1500 kills. Henrik is happy, he starts gambling:
  • On his 245th attempt he wins 20000 PED of shrapnell. He was lucky - winning was determined by chance. He is happy. He exchanges the shrapnell in Trade Terminal to in-game currency and then decides to withdraw his winnings. After some time 2000 USD lands on his bank account.

because with UL gear you don't need input from the outside world either.
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I wish this was remotely true but 100kpeds don't buy you to lvl70 and end you up with uber gear... just never going to happen.


and based on your UL gear part.... Sure okay... lets make all explosive projectile blueprints Limited also...?

hang on... all blueprints limited... and while we are at it make it so they are dropped by some other mechanize and not crafting...
 
Siim SanSiim Ots

How have I missed this thread :O
 
Post_History said:
hang on... all blueprints limited... and while we are at it make it so they are dropped by some other mechanize and not crafting...
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There's 100's of UL guns, amps, armor, faps where you have only TT input and no MU to pay, time to start complaining about the 4 BPs where you only have TT input...

Why all BPs limited? Even on UL BPs you have to put in MU on every click or did MA made a change today that allows to buy all sort of materials from TT?
 
Alukat123 said:
There's 100's of UL guns, amps, armor, faps where you have only TT input and no MU to pay, time to start complaining about the 4 BPs where you only have TT input...

Why all BPs limited? Even on UL BPs you have to put in MU on every click or did MA made a change today that allows to buy all sort of materials from TT?
Click to expand...

dont you have to pay high end money for high end gear? is that not MU? wth is wrong with you guys...
 
Alukat123 said:
There's 100's of UL guns, amps, armor, faps where you have only TT input and no MU to pay, time to start complaining about the 4 BPs where you only have TT input...

Why all BPs limited? Even on UL BPs you have to put in MU on every click or did MA made a change today that allows to buy all sort of materials from TT?
Click to expand...

And to buy a Unlimited Item that has a stupid Efficiency would make your argument null and void only high efficiency items have HIGH very HIGH MU vus impossible to do....

Your taking what I am saying out of context...

I was saying if you want your way of removal of Unlimited Items... that go looking for the resources that you need.....

you should also make it so that all Blueprints should be limited also... as these would be seen as unlimited items no?

I am not advocating for this... but I would expect you to see this as part of the deal of moving to a Purely limited environment.
 
Me Really Never said:
dont you have to pay high end money for high end gear? is that not MU? wth is wrong with you guys...
Click to expand...

it's not just about high-end stuff... EP IV is by no means a high end craft... but yeah, compare beginner craft to high end hunting gear...
 
Alukat123 said:
it's not just about high-end stuff... EP IV is by no means a high end craft... but yeah, compare beginner craft to high end hunting gear...
Click to expand...

20 ped per click is beginner crafting? yeah i dont know what you are smoking but you should stop it.
 
Alukat123 said:
it's a low level craft, so yeah, a beginner one. Good for skilling, that's it. Compared to the really big crafts (200-460 PED per click) it's rather low.
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So these 200-460PED per click bps.... Unlimited? Doubt it!


and your derailing the thread by these... as these are by no means a way of gabling… as are the EPIV BP is.
 
Alukat123 said:
it's a low level craft, so yeah, a beginner one. Good for skilling, that's it. Compared to the really big crafts (200-460 PED per click) it's rather low.
Click to expand...

so lets compare it to low level hunter.

imk2 + amp = maybe 80k peds.

now you need a low level armor + plates maybe another 30k peds.

lets assume you got the skills for using it properly so now you can start hunting 20 ped per kill mobs (low level) for a measily 110k peds.
high level would be 100 ped per kill to 5k ped per kill

so now there is an initial investment of 110k peds to 2k peds. you think thats fair?

and if you wanne talk about fair theres another thing to keep in mind. 20 ped per click means 20 ped like every 5 seconds. that would equate to 1400 dps at 3,5 dpp. please show me equipment for tt value or up to an investment of 2k peds (or at all) thats able to do that.
 
Post_History said:
So these 200-460PED per click bps.... Unlimited? Doubt it!
Click to expand...

they aren't, unlike hunters the crafters don't have the luxury of shit load UL stuff...

Post_History said:
and your derailing the thread by these... as these are by no means a way of gabling… as are the EPIV BP is.
Click to expand...

of course you can gamble on those bigger ones too, got to pay MU for the gamble, but you can gamble...
 
Alukat123 said:
they aren't, unlike hunters the crafters don't have the luxury of shit load UL stuff...



of course you can gamble on those bigger ones too, got to pay MU for the gamble, but you can gamble...
Click to expand...

Alukat123 the entire player base cannot spend 20000Kped on any those in the entire lifetime of this game....

but in one afternoon you can with EPIV by as many players as you like....

EPIV is for gabling can you not see this?

do you craft EPIV with the intent to sell the Explosives?

I hunt with the intent to loot something to sell back to auction, I also hunt for items to craft for myself if I see the MU is to high to buy that item... and Buy a lot of other stuff off auction if its cheaper to just buy it than craft it....
 
Me Really Never said:
so lets compare it to low level hunter.

imk2 + amp = maybe 80k peds.

now you need a low level armor + plates maybe another 30k peds.

lets assume you got the skills for using it properly so now you can start hunting 20 ped per kill mobs (low level) for a measily 110k peds.
high level would be 100 ped per kill to 5k ped per kill

so now there is an initial investment of 110k peds to 2k peds. you think thats fair?
Click to expand...

so imk2 + omegaton a-104 is low level stuff and costs 80k ped? i've just check auction, the a-104 costs about 230 PED....
grunt armor set can be bought for 10 PED, a set of armor plating costs like 30 ped... oh wait, you're not going by beginner/low stuff again...

Do you think it's fair miners/hunters can just input TT-value on every hunt while we crafters should pay MU on every god damn click?
 
Post_History said:
Alukat123 the entire player base cannot spend 20000Kped on any those in the entire lifetime of this game....

but in one afternoon you can with EPIV by as many players as you like....

EPIV is for gabling can you not see this?
Click to expand...

of course it's for gambling, but then, you can gamble on everything you want.. i know someone who gambles on armament device II ^^
 
Alukat123 said:
so imk2 + omegaton a-104 is low level stuff and costs 80k ped? i've just check auction, the a-104 costs about 230 PED....
grunt armor set can be bought for 10 PED, a set of armor plating costs like 30 ped... oh wait, you're not going by beginner/low stuff again...

Do you think it's fair miners/hunters can just input TT-value on every hunt while we crafters should pay MU on every god damn click?
Click to expand...

tell me the exact mob that costs 20 ped per kill that you can hunt with an 104 and grunt armor set. thanks. dont you see how you ridicule yourself?

and to add to it: the crafter has a lot lower initial investment than any hunter but he has to pay MU to make up for it. and to be fair, the average hunter out there uses lots of MU on their hunt. be it an amp, the armor, a fap or enhancers or plates. lots of them do. why else would armatrix guns sell that good? why would the amps sell that good?
 
Alukat123 said:
of course it's for gambling, but then, you can gamble on everything you want.. i know someone who gambles on armament device II ^^
Click to expand...

So if you see this as a direct way to gamble in game then this would be in contravention to the laws in Sweden and thus need to be fixed...? or we will not have a game to play?
 
Me Really Never said:
and to add to it: the crafter has a lot lower initial investment than any hunter but he has to pay MU to make up for it. and to be fair, the average hunter out there uses lots of MU on their hunt. be it an amp, the armor, a fap or enhancers or plates. lots of them do. why else would armatrix guns sell that good? why would the amps sell that good?
Click to expand...

the amps are selling good? 7 sales in the past on the armatrix l-amplifier 6B, 15 sales for 10b, 12 sales for 13b, ... but why would you spend MU on those armatrix amps over and over again, when you can have a 14 damage UL amp (omegaton a-104) for only about 200 PED...

and now explain again how those UL amps and so on aren't killing crafting and economy...
 
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