Has anyone thought about this?

Hey everyone,

So just a general discussion, I wanted to see if anyone had some input they wanted to share or what have you.

Has anyone (I'm sure people have) noticed that with all the adjusted/improved item missions, the value on older looted items is dropping dramatically? For instance, the MOD EMT-Ek 2600 fap being a better fap than the Adjusted Omegaton First Aid Pack seems to have caused the price to diminish substantially?

You can kinda see it when you look at the Year/Decade price vs the monthly (if available) MU on items.

I'm not a guy for conspiracy theories but I wonder if a (one of many) reason(s) for these missions is to decrease the value of uber items?

Do you also think that with all of these really nice items (example of MOD RESTO CHIP etc.,) that because they are so "uber" there will eventually come a power creep where a change will be implemented by MA sometime in the future to increase the amount of "uberness" needed to hunt at a profit? A scenario like lowering the average TT return by 2-3% (not that that would actually happen but something to the same effect).

A top end uber item used to be +1% lifesteal. Now we have increased dodge rates, increased reload rates, etc. Stuff that would have been godly.

My creep point can kinda be seen with the UNIQUE rings (though I imagine when MA implements ring decay they may balance out due to different decay rates but that's just speculation). At first, the rings were really damn good, now the UNIQUE rings are just crazy freaking good. They have offered increasingly more powerful rings each time.

Also, another possibility I can think of for all this, is a long-run game plan by MA. One where the fixed costs of devaluing all the older items doesn't really matter (because it doesn't seem logical to base a decision of which direction a game this big will go based on devaluation alone). In the long run, perhaps by slowly allowing players a lower level of entry into the higher tiers of the game they will increase the interest and amount of people playing the game at these higher tiers. In turn, their current business model will generate more revenue (more decay=more revenue?).

To end my post, I do want to say that I enjoy the fact that with the upgrade missions, there is loot in the loot-pool that has high MU and gives an incentive to hunters (without being the 1-off chance of a nice UL item drop).

Well, you say that a top end item used to have 1% life steal, and your argument is that new items diminish old items. But if you look at the items available between 2002 and SGA (2007?), many used to be considered high end but now aren't. It's the nature of the game, it has to continue to evolve to meet the demands of the player base at any given skill level as the population grows and the game changes.

Cool

Rave said:

Well, you say that a top end item used to have 1% life steal, and your argument is that new items diminish old items. But if you look at the items available between 2002 and SGA (2007?), many used to be considered high end but now aren't. It's the nature of the game, it has to continue to evolve to meet the demands of the player base at any given skill level as the population grows and the game changes.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply,

that is my point. Those "top end" items now aren't because of power creep.

Let's imagine the exact opposite scenario. One where any new items dropped after, say, SGA are no more powerful/better than those already ingame. They offer no better benefit whatsoever than what's already ingame and in HIGH demand and low qty.

What happens then?

Older uber items retain their high price, getting higher with each sale and each successive buyer more and more reluctant to release those items.

Follow that logic through and see where you think we'd arrive. Then tell me what you think MA should have done.

I'm yet to hear a convincing arguement as to why MA would want to reduce the MU on "top end" items. I don't see any business benefit.

KijkkiJikki said:

I'm yet to hear a convincing arguement as to why MA would want to reduce the MU on "top end" items. I don't see any business benefit.

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I don't think it's so much about directly reducing their value than it is about creating new value in other high end items to fuel increased economic activity. They're not making any money off mod faps... But giving mid level mid budget players access to things like uber resto chips and ares rings will create a large spike in deposits without really costing MA anything. They're just increasing the basic necessities that a hunter needs to stay competitive with the rest of the pack...

This isn't really a new thing. There has always been generations of items that have been replaced with better ones.

Okay

So it sounds like the 2nd scenario we mostly agree with?

Also, another possibility I can think of for all this, is a long-run game plan by MA. One where the fixed costs of devaluing all the older items doesn't really matter (because it doesn't seem logical to base a decision of which direction a game this big will go based on devaluation alone). In the long run, perhaps by slowly allowing players a lower level of entry into the higher tiers of the game they will increase the interest and amount of people playing the game at these higher tiers. In turn, their current business model will generate more revenue (more decay=more revenue?).



My followup question is that with the newer and more powerful items coming out, what results from the power creep? So far as we know there is an ECO cap. Does that cap get raised in 10 years? Does it gradually get harder to get the same average amount of TT returns we get now? Or eventually do most players have access to being very eco? (By current standards)

The norm has always been that new gen of items are slightly (some far superior) than older generation items.
When they get introduced, the older gen items drop significantly in value, simple as that.

As for MA wanting to drop the value of uber items, it's true up to a point. For instance I don't think there will ever be mod/imp faps available to the masses, nor do I think that Mod Mercs and imk2's will either. But something close or not too far from that will happen, already kinda started happening thanks to imp/mod res chip, which affects the imp fap MU. Still, the imp fap is far superior than imp/mod res chip for healing services/pvp for quick instant 120 heal.

This is a interesting topic for sure


When the Shroom Faps was introduced some people thought the amount of shrooms will be set and they cease dropping at some point. I always thought the number will be infinite and it will be some kind of field test to see the
impact on the game for future upgrade missions.

We will see more missions like this in the future and a new generation of gear will level the playing field and improve the average eco so mindark can change the returns and devalue oldschool high eco guns like the imkII and the mod merc. The new eco kings will become guns that need a profession level over 100 and buff stacking.

Prices for current gear will go down and at some distant day even a mod fap will be still a good item but we will get reasonable alternatives that close the eco gap. But dont worry, there will always be new premium stuff to get, that give you an edge over the rest of the players. We got 2 new quality tiers "augmented and perfected". I can only imagine the possibilities.

I see weapon eco improving and we are slowly moving away from (L) weapons but i have honestly no clue in which direction armors will go. To make new gear from old gear + drops is adding mu value into loot and i really like this concept. I also feel the crafting system has so many useless BP's with items nobody thats sane would still use anymore, i really wish mindark or the pp's would find a solution to bring back value for old BP's and old items like they did with the maddox IV

KijkkiJikki said:

I'm yet to hear a convincing arguement as to why MA would want to reduce the MU on "top end" items. I don't see any business benefit.

Click to expand...

If they devalue them by increasing the number of items at this level, then that will allow a higher number of people to hunt at that level which is to say at a higher turnover.

It seems they realized the glass ceiling of having a limited number of uber items and are trying to increase the number to accommodate the new players that are skilling up into that tier.

Hmm

Fiona Simmons said:

This is a interesting topic for sure


When the Shroom Faps was introduced some people thought the amount of shrooms will be set and they cease dropping at some point. I always thought the number will be infinite and it will be some kind of field test to see the
impact on the game for future upgrade missions.

We will see more missions like this in the future and a new generation of gear will level the playing field and improve the average eco so mindark can change the returns and devalue oldschool high eco guns like the imkII and the mod merc. The new eco kings will become guns that need a profession level over 100 and buff stacking.

Prices for current gear will go down and at some distant day even a mod fap will be still a good item but we will get reasonable alternatives that close the eco gap. But dont worry, there will always be new premium stuff to get, that give you an edge over the rest of the players. We got 2 new quality tiers "augmented and perfected". I can only imagine the possibilities.

I see weapon eco improving and we are slowly moving away from (L) weapons but i have honestly no clue in which direction armors will go. To make new gear from old gear + drops is adding mu value into loot and i really like this concept. I also feel the crafting system has so many useless BP's with items nobody thats sane would still use anymore, i really wish mindark or the pp's would find a solution to bring back value for old BP's and old items like they did with the maddox IV

Click to expand...

I agree with this. I think this makes the most sense.

It looks like, the more I think and read everyone else's responses that the end goal is what addz said.

If they devalue them by increasing the number of items at this level, then that will allow a higher number of people to hunt at that level which is to say at a higher turnover.

It seems they realized the glass ceiling of having a limited number of uber items and are trying to increase the number to accommodate the new players that are skilling up into that tier.

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...-Why-new-features-are-bad-for-you-in-Entropia

More regarding your concerns. Check it out

I think is more a general trend in the game, every year you have more items added to the game, but the number of players have not increased at the same amount, they could even have decreased since the "peak". So with a declining player/item ratio you will also have a decline in the price because of a lower demand. A lot of items and resources have come down in prices since a couple of years ago. It's just natural when the growth of the player-base has hit a stagnation, it will also effect high-end items, even if the price for those are more effected by any new and better replacements.

As an old timer who came back, I was pretty shocked when I started to read up on the buffs and rings now available. That would have been unthinkable ten years ago.

So you have to figure there's a catch attached to those. And as far as older gear getting replaced I think also the newer guns are just more "in fashion." There's a portion of the player base who doesn't care about efficiency at all, just pure damage.

I do think the barrier for taking on tougher mobs is lowered. Maybe that's a good thing, it's boring to hunt Argonauts for 2 years.

I for my self were thinking to get me a Mod Fap. But due to all this and the tradition of MA to kill any investment and devalue any uber item, I rejected this. I feel like im being forced to withdraw when I dont want- But cant find much fun to invest on ...

To the other hand, I don't understand how in the world could they introduce those invisible armors for 50k PED (!)
It makes me think they have totally no knowledge of whats in game and what people buy items for now days.
Comes to mind this. They are either:
1) Ignorant of current economy
2) Greedy
3) (I keep this one secret to my self )

With such devaluation of current items, you think they would make a proper price for such.

In the other hand, ubers have had tons of money in the past and is ok for MA to decrease this profit and make the game "cheap" in terms of items (not loot -_-' unfortunately).

So there is a line and a balance. I feel bad for the balance manager as I don't know what I would have done my self if I were in his position.

I need to get back the trust in MA the one I have had long time ago for many years

billairboy said:

I think is more a general trend in the game, every year you have more items added to the game, but the number of players have not increased at the same amount, they could even have decreased since the "peak". So with a declining player/item ratio you will also have a decline in the price because of a lower demand.

Click to expand...

I'd say we definitely have less players then at the population boom before engine switch.
I'm afraid your slightly over-simplifying the situation thou. The average skill level on upper half of the playerbase has grown significantly. There is a whole new generation of players closing in or already past lvl 100. This generates increased demand for the high lvl gear and the new stuff will fill that void.

I don't think MA likes the absolute top level items like mod fap much. In fact they have said they do consider it a mistake those were ever added to the game.
On the other hand, MA can't just stab the owners in the back now. Seems to me they've been actually very careful trying to avoid undermining the value of the legacy uber gear.
There's no love, it's just a marriage of convenience...

Fifth said:

I'd say we definitely have less players then at the population boom before engine switch.
I'm afraid your slightly over-simplifying the situation thou. The average skill level on upper half of the playerbase has grown significantly. There is a whole new generation of players closing in or already past lvl 100. This generates increased demand for the high lvl gear and the new stuff will fill that void.

I don't think MA likes the absolute top level items like mod fap much. In fact they have said they do consider it a mistake those were ever added to the game.
On the other hand, MA can't just stab the owners in the back now. Seems to me they've been actually very careful trying to avoid undermining the value of the legacy uber gear.
There's no love, it's just a marriage of convenience...

Click to expand...

You seen the price of adj FAP lately?

But you are right, they don't want to stab anyone, just a slow, slow burn. Which was really the only course of action. Mod faps, im mk2, etc have held their value pretty well, but it's only down from here. Especially now that we have such a large " eco" crowd.

I honestly have no idea about the playerbase size... All these planets made it very hard to get a general feeling for it, and I don't think EntropiaLife stats are too great of a reference tool.

KijkkiJikki said:

I'm yet to hear a convincing arguement as to why MA would want to reduce the MU on "top end" items. I don't see any business benefit.

Click to expand...

It's not about the markup, it's about increasing the cost to play and the amount of the cost that goes directly to MA.

When the average eco/efficiency/strength - whichever way you look at it - of the average player goes up, which is what inevitably happens when more and more items are introduced that do precisely that, it becomes necessary for all players to equip themselves with the required equipment in order to keep up. If they don't, then their relative position becomes weaker and they effectively suffer a downgrade.

That would be all well and good if we were talking about a P2P market in these items, but we aren't. Many of them are available only through buying strongboxes, a direct payment to MA, much of which is not reclaimable by withdrawal due to the consumable and non-tt-able items. Remember this includes things like pills as well as rings.

Then there are the upgraded items, which all consume TT value and therefore reduce the total PED value in the game, which is a reduction in MA's contingent liabilities.

The demand for these items (both consumable and repairable) therefore creates a short- to medium- term income boost for MA, as well as reducing liabilities to improve their financial position.

What it definitely doesn't is help the economy or the sustainability of the game in the long term, and that's where the problem lies, and what will ultimately destroy EU if they continue down this path, imo.

So the reduction of markup is probably not the intention, and as you say, there is no inherent benefit to doing so, but it is an inevitable result of the strategy being employed.

In my opinion the current trend is to make the game more affordable, the loss of markup on high end items is just a consequence of that.

Friends of mine think I have serious brain damage when I tell them a virtual gun is worth 6k euros.

It's an interesting topic, but nothing new as other users have suggested.

IMO MA is doing this: they do what someone would do when a ship is sinking with all their valuable stuff on it. They grab fast as much as they can before the ship lost.
MA is just trying to milk as much money out of its playerbase as they can. They dont do anything in terms of customer service and dont want to improve on that tier either. with introducing the CLDs they basically sold the game to the playerbase and now they do just as much as they need to to keep it going and on this way they pull out as much money as they can.