The Changing EU Economy: An Analysis

Markups are declining, as you point out, but it is a fall, rather than a crash, which is where I think the game was heading, next year, the year after...eventually. This gives time to build up the new-player base, time for current players to adjust to the new conditions, and time for investor confidence to stabilize, albeit at a lower level, and avoid a panic. (Like the New Deal, although you are right of course that direct comparison is a stretch, but the use of analogies isn't, and hopefully without the drastic adjustments of the Second New Deal.)

The move toward a more "freemium" model used by other games is probably needed to draw new players, and, to be fair, the other games started it. Most large, western, MMOs were subscription based in 2009 when Turbine switched DDO to free to play with great success, making most of their money from webshop purchases, then followed with LOTRO a year later. Following their example, the industry as a whole shifted (loosely) towards the EU model.

Last note, on pill-crafting...I have a nanobot BP I could toss on auction.

Thanks for the comment.


The fall has been heavy on most mining materials, at first common ores/enmats to below 105% and now seems to be affecting materials such as energised crystal and pre change traditionally higher mark up materials. Of course there are exceptions such as dianthus, but overall has made profit mining extremely difficult.

Hunting mark ups also dropped over the last year, after introduction of shrapnel that temporarily raised mark ups on oils etc (cut supply); then followed explosive mania :laugh: that cut demand for oils etc and put mark ups back to where they began in the main. This confused me greatly as the two decisions seem at odds with the perceived intention of the other. :confused:

As for the "freemium" model it is cool that players don't get stuck at the midpoint of career with their introduction, however with constant supply won't we get back to where we started back in PE before the (l) revolution? By this i mean players leaving game will sell excess "bought from MA" stuff creating more than needed in economy. Yes i agree the stuff being done of late (upgrades/buy from MA/webshop deals) is done widely by other games, however the difference is ofc that EU is RCE and none of the others are.

As for the "run on bank" possibilities, my fear is that investor type players, and older players may start to withdraw/sell-out. Traders and high end item owners in game i would imagine account for quite a large % of ingame liabilities to MA. My hope is this doesn't happen, but is at the forefront of my mind at this time.

I just hope that there is a bigger picture that i'm not seeing, but for now as we always say adapt or quit (or go into cryo and wait till things become more apparent).
 
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One thing on the upgrade missions - I think they did those really well. Some parts looted (either self or bought) and some parts crafted.

I would like to see that trend continue as it gives a secondary incentive to loot "medium" rarity drops (like nanocubes) alongside the mission skilling incentive. MA could introduce requirements for upgrades using BPs with rare mats in them, to give the miners, crafters and hunters all MU as well...
 
MA should be very careful with freemium/webshop/pay2win systems... We all know as a game/entertainment product, it is poorer in content, visuals, concept, playability than the vast majority of its competitors.

If MA move to the same payment model as others (effectively abandoning the RCE aspect and making it a skill based slot machine) then the incentive to play will evaporate for all but the die-hard.

If MU (including high-end, desirable items) is reduced to nothing as everyone has the same webshop bought weapon, armour, fap and buffset then people will switch off very rapidly.

Driving up the prices of ESIs and selling skill pills on the web shop at 4 PED a pop has got me really worried. When you put that next to the new resto chips, constant upgrade missions for weapons/armors/faps... the trend is terrifying.

I thought the whole freemium/pay2win thing was just people being paranoid, but they seem intent on killing the economy and forcing us to buy everything directly from them. And they seem perfectly content to leave crafting a dead system where the only things crafted are amps and EP IV...

All amidst a record breaking content drought while they supposedly focus 99% of their efforts on ComPets...

I absolutely agree that if it is done, it has to be done carefully. And I do think it, or something like it, has to be done. One advantage EU has over quest-based games is that is is still a sandbox, and if MA does not mishandle things completely, that will still provide a great deal of gameplay, being essentially open-ended content.

And I think that this will help the crafting profession in the long run, in that more players will be able to craft. Crafting should be one of the big draws to EU. Many MMO players want deep, meaningful crafting systems...I did. And I think EU has the deepest and most complex crafting system this side of pre-NGE Star Wars Galaxies. But there is no way that new or casual players can successfully craft. Even component crafting, and even when metal residue markup was high, required a large investment of resources. With markup of mats not artificially inflated, hopefully entry into the profession will start to become easier.

The fall has been heavy on most mining materials, at first common ores/enmats to below 105% and now seems to be affecting materials such as energised crystal and pre change traditionally higher mark up materials. Of course there are exceptions such as dianthus, but overall has made profit mining extremely difficult.

Hunting mark ups also dropped over the last year, after introduction of shrapnel that temporarily raised mark ups on oils etc (cut supply); then followed explosive mania :laugh: that cut demand for oils etc and put mark ups back to where they began in the main. This confused me greatly as the two decisions seem at odds with the perceived intention of the other. :confused:

As for the "freemium" model it is cool that players don't get stuck at the midpoint of career with their introduction, however with constant supply won't we get back to where we started back in PE before the (l) revolution? By this i mean players leaving game will sell excess "bought from MA" stuff creating more than needed in economy. Yes i agree the stuff being done of late (upgrades/buy from MA/webshop deals) is done widely by other games, however the difference is ofc that EU is RCE and none of the others are.

As for the "run on bank" possibilities, my fear is that investor type players, and older players may start to withdraw/sell-out. Traders and high end item owners in game i would imagine account for quite a large % of ingame liabilities to MA. My hope is this doesn't happen, but is at the forefront of my mind at this time.

I just hope that there is a bigger picture that i'm not seeing, but for now as we always say adapt or quit (or go into cryo and wait till things become more apparent).

Yes, the adjustments have been toughest on miners. The markups are only falling back to what they always should have been, but, still, MA should take some steps to bolster the profession. This is one of my worries about these changes.

And yes, MA has to be careful what they release into the economy. So far, most have been consumable, or avatar bound, the main exception being the rings. These are valid concerns, I just believe that if there is a steady influx of new players, there is less of a chance of a bank run by older players than if nothing changed and MA kept losing money year after year, getting closer and closer to turning the lights out.
 
Yes, the adjustments have been toughest on miners. The markups are only falling back to what they always should have been, but, still, MA should take some steps to bolster the profession. This is one of my worries about these changes.

And yes, MA has to be careful what they release into the economy. So far, most have been consumable, or avatar bound, the main exception being the rings. These are valid concerns, I just believe that if there is a steady influx of new players, there is less of a chance of a bank run by older players than if nothing changed and MA kept losing money year after year, getting closer and closer to turning the lights out.

I think they have backed themselves into a corner with demand, the explosive revolution has meant there is simply not enough demand to sustain mined materials and even greatly reduced hunting materials. Sinks for materials in upgrade/buy missions as other (non RCE) games do make demand even lower due to more UL SIB stuff out there (less demand for crafted/hunted items). Plus there is a never ending supply of these upgrade/buy from Ma guns/armours/emk faps/adj bio chips etc etc.... on top of the xentechs, and other planet SIB stuff.

It feels to me there is no coherance from MA in terms of balancing at the moment, i mean look at viceroy armour (untradeable as not to affect market) and now the rush of buy from dev stuff that is tradeable :confused::confused::confused:. Looks to me at this time being careful about what they release into game is blinded by the rush for instant cash, maybe for compets, withdrawals or whatever.... but the ingame economy atm is as fragile as i have ever seen it.

I just hope that there is a long term plan, i love EU but atm things concern me. Not trying to be a negative poster, but just saying things as i see them at this time.
 
I think they have backed themselves into a corner with demand, the explosive revolution has meant there is simply not enough demand to sustain mined materials and even greatly reduced hunting materials. Sinks for materials in upgrade/buy missions as other (non RCE) games do make demand even lower due to more UL SIB stuff out there (less demand for crafted/hunted items). Plus there is a never ending supply of these upgrade/buy from Ma guns/armours/emk faps/adj bio chips etc etc.... on top of the xentechs, and other planet SIB stuff.

It feels to me there is no coherance from MA in terms of balancing at the moment, i mean look at viceroy armour (untradeable as not to affect market) and now the rush of buy from dev stuff that is tradeable :confused::confused::confused:. Looks to me at this time being careful about what they release into game is blinded by the rush for instant cash, maybe for compets, withdrawals or whatever.... but the ingame economy atm is as fragile as i have ever seen it.

I just hope that there is a long term plan, i love EU but atm things concern me. Not trying to be a negative poster, but just saying things as i see them at this time.



We just see things differently. Demand was artificially high, and needed to be reduced to whatever its natural level was to start rebuilding a healthier, less vulnerable economy. It shouldn't be as fragile as you see it being.

Consider a new player who has joined the game to play a science-fiction themed hunting MMO. He is a casual player, who bought a starter pack, puts in fifteen dollars a month, maybe a little more at Christmas, does other things in the summer, and does not expect to get rich, but does think that, unlike other games he could be playing, if/when he decides to quit, he can sell out and recoup some of the money that he has spent. This is the player that should make up the base of the economic pyramid. He doesn't care who wins Merry Mayhem, doesn't care if CLD payouts go down, doesn't care if Mod Merc prices plummet, doesn't care about alts, or compets, or EP BPs. He just keeps playing, depositing, and occasionally buying something that was crafted.

That is the player that MindArk needs to target, focusing the game on him and his friends, so that something like EP BPs won't shake the economic foundations of the game, because these players will make up those foundations, and they just won't care.

The Planet Partners and their relationships are a complex issue, connected to the larger one. A certain amount of competition between them is healthy enough, but not the cut-throat competition we seem to have sometimes seen, in, for example, event-scheduling. I am encouraged by the latest development--the new mod-chip mission that requires visiting every planet--to think that they can work together at times.
 
We just see things differently. Demand was artificially high, and needed to be reduced to whatever its natural level was to start rebuilding a healthier, less vulnerable economy. It shouldn't be as fragile as you see it being.

Consider a new player who has joined the game to play a science-fiction themed hunting MMO. He is a casual player, who bought a starter pack, puts in fifteen dollars a month, maybe a little more at Christmas, does other things in the summer, and does not expect to get rich, but does think that, unlike other games he could be playing, if/when he decides to quit, he can sell out and recoup some of the money that he has spent. This is the player that should make up the base of the economic pyramid. He doesn't care who wins Merry Mayhem, doesn't care if CLD payouts go down, doesn't care if Mod Merc prices plummet, doesn't care about alts, or compets, or EP BPs. He just keeps playing, depositing, and occasionally buying something that was crafted.

That is the player that MindArk needs to target, focusing the game on him and his friends, so that something like EP BPs won't shake the economic foundations of the game, because these players will make up those foundations, and they just won't care.

The Planet Partners and their relationships are a complex issue, connected to the larger one. A certain amount of competition between them is healthy enough, but not the cut-throat competition we seem to have sometimes seen, in, for example, event-scheduling. I am encouraged by the latest development--the new mod-chip mission that requires visiting every planet--to think that they can work together at times.

Maybe we just see things differently, but i really can't see how demand can be "artificially high" as it relies on players buying things they want/need for whatever they wish to do.

As for a new player wanting to spend $15 a month, i think those mostly realise rather quickly the lack of play you get from that amount and leave rather quickly after tiring of snable hunting or whatever.

I really do hope that your right in your analysis and that i am incorrect, but guess time will tell.

Nice to have a discussion on these things without anger or descending into a whine/bitch fest. At the end of the day everyone is here because they love something about EU, i just hope things continue long to come.

:)
 
Consider a new player who has joined the game to play a science-fiction themed hunting MMO. He is a casual player, who bought a starter pack, puts in fifteen dollars a month, maybe a little more at Christmas, does other things in the summer, and does not expect to get rich, but does think that, unlike other games he could be playing, if/when he decides to quit, he can sell out and recoup some of the money that he has spent. This is the player that should make up the base of the economic pyramid. He doesn't care who wins Merry Mayhem, doesn't care if CLD payouts go down, doesn't care if Mod Merc prices plummet, doesn't care about alts, or compets, or EP BPs. He just keeps playing, depositing, and occasionally buying something that was crafted.

That is the player that MindArk needs to target, focusing the game on him and his friends, so that something like EP BPs won't shake the economic foundations of the game, because these players will make up those foundations, and they just won't care.


I agree on this, and it's something I have been saying also. MA need more players that don't care about profit, just want to play a fun game and are prepared to pay some monthly money to do it. So improving the hunting, action and "fun" part of the game is more important than spending time to improve crafting and mining in my opinion, even if I myself mostly craft and mine to the few hours I actually play the game.
 
I agree on this, and it's something I have been saying also. MA need more players that don't care about profit, just want to play a fun game and are prepared to pay some monthly money to do it. So improving the hunting, action and "fun" part of the game is more important than spending time to improve crafting and mining in my opinion, even if I myself mostly craft and mine to the few hours I actually play the game.

And how have they accomplished this in any sort of way? The newbie missions are boring. All major events are designed for top level players. Creature AI has worsened to the point where it feels like you're shooting a brick wall.

What fantasy dream world are you guys living in where people are happy to play $15 dollars a month to lose money hunting snablesnots in EU? Maybe I'm wrong and these people exist. So far they seem extremely rare to the point that designing the game around their needs is asinine.
 
And how have they accomplished this in any sort of way? The newbie missions are boring. All major events are designed for top level players. Creature AI has worsened to the point where it feels like you're shooting a brick wall.

What fantasy dream world are you guys living in where people are happy to play $15 dollars a month to lose money hunting snablesnots in EU? Maybe I'm wrong and these people exist. So far they seem extremely rare to the point that designing the game around their needs is asinine.

Have to agree here.

Gameplay is very poor. Missions mostly are boring grind missions.
Daily missions are designed the same way, only grind X amount of mob whatever.
Same for mining and crafting missions.
Exploring is no longer challanging (vehicles) nor exiting (most old POI pre VU10 removed)

Storyline ???? Where ???????

Even the GFX isn´t up to comon standards than other games.

For an average player spending 10-20 $ a month for a game, EU is not really attractive.

To have a good retetion rate, EU needs to be attractive to new players (pay to win is not really attracting new players).
 
I agree on this, and it's something I have been saying also. MA need more players that don't care about profit, just want to play a fun game and are prepared to pay some monthly money to do it. So improving the hunting, action and "fun" part of the game is more important than spending time to improve crafting and mining in my opinion, even if I myself mostly craft and mine to the few hours I actually play the game.
Absolutely agree.
One of the selling points of the game is it's RCE aspect, microtansactions, open world, etc. This has to be maintained not replaced.
The other component in this recipe needs to be improved, then there will be synergy between those two.
Right now EU's like one-legged man wondering why he can't walk? Thinking prolly makeing the one good leg even stronger is the solution... :p
Don't tell me adding new areas and activities to the game that are indeed fun and exciting is too hard. There's some investments needed, both in time and development recources. If the ideas are good the investment will create new synergy with the existing elements of the game (virtual economy) that actually works very well.
 
Consider a new player who has joined the game to play a science-fiction themed hunting MMO. He is a casual player, who bought a starter pack, puts in fifteen dollars a month, maybe a little more at Christmas, does other things in the summer, and does not expect to get rich, but does think that, unlike other games he could be playing, if/when he decides to quit, he can sell out and recoup some of the money that he has spent. This is the player that should make up the base of the economic pyramid. He doesn't care who wins Merry Mayhem, doesn't care if CLD payouts go down, doesn't care if Mod Merc prices plummet, doesn't care about alts, or compets, or EP BPs. He just keeps playing, depositing, and occasionally buying something that was crafted.

That is the player that MindArk needs to target, focusing the game on him and his friends, so that something like EP BPs won't shake the economic foundations of the game, because these players will make up those foundations, and they just won't care.


As for a new player wanting to spend $15 a month, i think those mostly realise rather quickly the lack of play you get from that amount and leave rather quickly after tiring of snable hunting or whatever.

What fantasy dream world are you guys living in where people are happy to play $15 dollars a month to lose money hunting snablesnots in EU? Maybe I'm wrong and these people exist. So far they seem extremely rare to the point that designing the game around their needs is asinine.

For an average player spending 10-20 $ a month for a game, EU is not really attractive.

I am EXACTLY the described kind of player.

I did played a few MMOs and every time when I quit I was left with a sore taste in my month thinking that I invested both time and money and I leave empty handed and, even if I would decide to return someday, my character and all her assets would be obsolete by that time. The last one that I played though, while not a true RCE, allowed selling of characters, deeds, items for RL$, so when I quit I was able to cash out a big part of my investment (actually even a bit more than what I deposited in the first place, if talking strictly in terms of money and ignoring spent time). And I liked that! And I wanted that my next game to allow me to do that too! I don't expect to get rich from EU, far from it, yet I love that I do have the possibility that, when I'll decided to quit the game and move on to something else, to withdraw the/some/more money that I spent in the first place. I made an initial bigger deposit ($120) from which I bought a starting package and a few other gear pieces, then I religiously deposited $10 on the first of every month, and far now the sum of my in-game assets is about on the same value (actually, once again, I'm a bit on the plus side), which is kinda cool thing.

I did played themepark MMOs in the past (the kind where you have a story line, quests and everything else that was mentioned in a few past threads), but I grow up tired them pretty fast - they can be cool for a while, but you eventually get pi**ed of having someone else always telling you where to go and what to do next. That's why for the last few years I started to prefer sandbox games, that give me the freedom to do whatever I want to do, where there are tons of things that can be done, but no think that must be done - no character levels (just profession levels), no classes, no factions, no reputations, no quests, no artificial limits, no fail-safe nets, etc. So, what for other people may look like a department that EU is lacking in, for me it was actually an attraction point, and I'm definitely not the only player here.

Now is true, that with a limited budget, there's not much you can do and even by playing smart is unlikely you'll ever become an uber or get those high ATH, but guess what - for some of us that's perfectly fine and playing in the minor league can be quite a relaxing activity after a hard day at school or at work. I made some math and at my budget ($10 per month) and my play time (about twenty hours per week), if I stay decently eco, I can keep hunting mobs with less than 100 hp, with a TT weapon or my Z12 from the starting package all day long and not get out of money 'till the end of the month (considering loot recycling ofc). And for me that is fun. And, worst case scenario, I can always fall back to simple swunting. And guess what, for me that is fun too. And I simply don't care who the uber ares, what's the evolution of a mod merc price, who globals or hofs (I removed the global news from both chat and that news thing, remaining only with the tracker, which, since I couldn't disabled, I set to only show me 2k+ HOFs) and, generally, how other people perform. I only really care about me and my own gameplay.

I am excited about EU and I truly love the game (even at the low level where I play it), so I told all my friends about it; I brought about 12 people in game, four of them are still playing, all of them following pretty much the same game philosophy as me (just that they don't also play the "forum game" that I'm playing from time to time, when I feel that instead of relaxation, what I need is some forum "PVP" action - lol), each of them also brought at lest one or two other players, so we're now about 15 people from my small town that do play the game and make our own small monthly deposits to MA (actually they even made their own society).

Problem with people who play the game like us is that they represent a silent group; they can't be bothered to make a forum account (for example none of my friends didn't bothered to make one and their only news source is represented by the launcher), check what's the hot topic of the day or, even more, get involved in forum debates; heck, most of the time, they can't even be bothered to join the chat channels in game, but prefer to stay for themselves and (eventually) chat with their RL friends that they (also) made join the game. That's why you don't see many of us, not because we don't exist. I'm sure thought that MA can see and analyze all new accounts, retention rate, average deposit, etc and draw the proper conclusions.
 
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I am EXACTLY the described kind of player....

etc

I'm by no means an uber, not a big depositer either, and have built up things month by month as many have. All i was saying is that most who want a $15 a month MMO don't last in EU, and go on to other things. EU takes all kinds of player types imo, invest/trader types, huge bankroll type, non depositors, social type players.... etc.
 
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And how have they accomplished this in any sort of way? The newbie missions are boring. All major events are designed for top level players. Creature AI has worsened to the point where it feels like you're shooting a brick wall.

What fantasy dream world are you guys living in where people are happy to play $15 dollars a month to lose money hunting snablesnots in EU? Maybe I'm wrong and these people exist. So far they seem extremely rare to the point that designing the game around their needs is asinine.

Have to agree here.

Gameplay is very poor. Missions mostly are boring grind missions.
Daily missions are designed the same way, only grind X amount of mob whatever.
Same for mining and crafting missions.
Exploring is no longer challanging (vehicles) nor exiting (most old POI pre VU10 removed)

Storyline ???? Where ???????

Even the GFX isn´t up to comon standards than other games.

For an average player spending 10-20 $ a month for a game, EU is not really attractive.

To have a good retetion rate, EU needs to be attractive to new players (pay to win is not really attracting new players).

Grinding missions are not unheard of in MMOs, or unexpected. I don't think the newbie missions are boring, I think they're rather fun overall, and I always look forward to new ones, even if they aren't challenging at this stage. I don't think that I am alone in that. And while I'm specifically talking about Caly, I certainly wouldn't mind seeing another Hunt the Thing.

So, what can you do for $15 a month? Well, you can hunt snables. Or exos. Or cornies. Or daikis. Or a lot of things. Moving on from punies, there is a wide variety of mobs to hunt, and a lot of places to explore while you hunt them. About a quarter of Eudoria is a starter area now, and I think you might have forgotten how much entertainment you can get from exploring a big, new world, with or without vehicles. And if you want to hunt bigger, you can always team hunt. What else? You can train a pet. You can run beacons, and other instances. You can do waves, shinkiba and diaki, and so on. You can PvP, specifically during citadel events. You can participate in migration, since there are young shared loot migration mobs now. You can participate in instance events, since you can loot prize items that you can sell to other players...a change lifted straight from other MMOs. Except for scale, what is it you can't do? Your argument is basically that the only persistent entertainment value EU can provide is from constantly playing bigger and bigger and bigger. I just don't agree.

As for a new player wanting to spend $15 a month, i think those mostly realise rather quickly the lack of play you get from that amount and leave rather quickly after tiring of snable hunting or whatever.

I really do hope that your right in your analysis and that i am incorrect, but guess time will tell.

Nice to have a discussion on these things without anger or descending into a whine/bitch fest. At the end of the day everyone is here because they love something about EU, i just hope things continue long to come.

:)

I'm by no means an uber, not a big depositer either, and have built up things month by month as many have. All i was saying is that most who want a $15 a month MMO don't last in EU, and go on to other things. EU takes all kinds of player types imo, invest/trader types, huge bankroll type, non depositors, social type players.... etc.

There are many reasons that a $15 a month player would historically not last long in EU, including cost-to-play, lack of content for his level, lack of progress, insufficient and obscure documentation, and game-play issues. All of these things are seemingly being addressed. Without question, low-cost game-play can be improved, and needs to be improved, and is being improved. It is already night-and-day better than it was five years ago. I would say that over half of all new content that is put out is geared toward starting and low-level play. I don't see any indication that will change. If you want to discuss specific things that can be done, just say the word. We can do that.

A couple of more points.

Maybe we just see things differently, but i really can't see how demand can be "artificially high" as it relies on players buying things they want/need for whatever they wish to do.

Artificial in that it was based on out-of-game (RL) goals, rather than any in-game goals. And it progressed to the point that it distorted the in-game environment. That is to say, people who paid high markup in order to gamble to get money in real life made it functionally impossible for people who wanted to craft as a normal in-game activity for entertainment, as they did in other MMOs.

Storyline ???? Where ???????

Games are chewy, or games are crunchy. EU has never been a chewy game. Do you think this needs to change? To what extent? Personally, I'm not sure.
 
Grinding missions are not unheard of in MMOs, or unexpected. I don't think the newbie missions are boring, I think they're rather fun overall, and I always look forward to new ones, even if they aren't challenging at this stage. I don't think that I am alone in that. And while I'm specifically talking about Caly, I certainly wouldn't mind seeing another Hunt the Thing.

So, what can you do for $15 a month? Well, you can hunt snables. Or exos. Or cornies. Or daikis. Or a lot of things. Moving on from punies, there is a wide variety of mobs to hunt, and a lot of places to explore while you hunt them. About a quarter of Eudoria is a starter area now, and I think you might have forgotten how much entertainment you can get from exploring a big, new world, with or without vehicles. And if you want to hunt bigger, you can always team hunt. What else? You can train a pet. You can run beacons, and other instances. You can do waves, shinkiba and diaki, and so on. You can PvP, specifically during citadel events. You can participate in migration, since there are young shared loot migration mobs now. You can participate in instance events, since you can loot prize items that you can sell to other players...a change lifted straight from other MMOs. Except for scale, what is it you can't do? Your argument is basically that the only persistent entertainment value EU can provide is from constantly playing bigger and bigger and bigger. I just don't agree.





There are many reasons that a $15 a month player would historically not last long in EU, including cost-to-play, lack of content for his level, lack of progress, insufficient and obscure documentation, and game-play issues. All of these things are seemingly being addressed. Without question, low-cost game-play can be improved, and needs to be improved, and is being improved. It is already night-and-day better than it was five years ago. I would say that over half of all new content that is put out is geared toward starting and low-level play. I don't see any indication that will change. If you want to discuss specific things that can be done, just say the word. We can do that.

A couple of more points.



Artificial in that it was based on out-of-game (RL) goals, rather than any in-game goals. And it progressed to the point that it distorted the in-game environment. That is to say, people who paid high markup in order to gamble to get money in real life made it functionally impossible for people who wanted to craft as a normal in-game activity for entertainment, as they did in other MMOs.



Games are chewy, or games are crunchy. EU has never been a chewy game. Do you think this needs to change? To what extent? Personally, I'm not sure.

I agree that things now for new players are light years ahead of when i started, also agree with most of what you are saying. The loss of new players though is also due do RCE environment, most people who play MMO's expect "instant gratification", mounds of gold or whatever and don't look past the first few weeks. The good news is though that those that are tired of that kind of pointless/easy glory and achievement given by 99% of games out there stay and tend to stay longer than other games. EU is a marmite of MMO's, people either love or hate it :laugh:.

As for crafting and demand/mark up I think one of the main issues is that crafted weapons/armours/heal tools are nowadays simply outdated with newer lootable/upgradeable stuff. Also we will always have the gambling element in game as has been seen with the Explosive BP revolution, and a lot of weapons now on calypso are uncraftable anyway due to no BTAU,ATAU, and other components dropping. On top of all this we also have lots of SIB unlimited stuff looting such as Xentech rifles, upgrade missions for faps/guns/armours/chips... each one of these sold means no need to buy (l) from crafters/hunters etc.

Now i never played for profit, I depo'd regularly, play carefully and ofc try to get ahead. I am trusted ingame by many and through contacts am able to heal with friends imp fap to earn ped, sell small stacks for better mark up, and have played damn hard to get an edge. Within the last year with devaluation, low demand, crazy low loot return swings and no mark up worth chasing (or holding) i am seriously at a bit of a loss what to do ingame anymore. Add to this losses due to stuff i had devalue due to MA npc super items and maybe you can understand why even though i love EU i am at a point where i'm on a knife edge to carry on/or withdraw most of what i have and just hunt snable or whatever.

What is the point buying equipment any more when something will be introduced next VU that will make all you have worked for turned to dust within weeks. What is the point skilling when all the hard work is subverted by crazy eco galactic chips with low level req's, or whatever. What is the point hunting/mining/crafting when there is no mark up to be chased and very few to buy.

I just hope that those in charge know what they are doing, i try really hard not to whinge or whine on Forum and in past new looted stuff or whatever has been part of game and player led. What we have at the moment is devaluation due to MA/PP's directly selling, whether it be nanocubes, guns,faps, chips or whatever. It is this that worries not only myself but many others at this time as can be seen with multitude of sale threads. Now i'll adapt (as always), still love EU, but most of reasons i play (mark up whore :)) are simply not there.

All the best, and again thankyou for an enlightening and in depth chat about economy. I've tried to discuss with as little self interest as i can, but most players i think hunt/mine/play etc for same reasons; to try and build avatar, and improve (if profit comes as a result is extra). PE and now EU has always separated fools from their money (gamblers), and has always been about gaining enough mark up to cover your ass. Call it Charles Darwin at it's most brutal, thats what most people like about EU - remove that and it's just another MMO.

Dibbler :)
 
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What is the point buying equipment any more when something will be introduced next VU that will make all you have worked for turned to dust within weeks. What is the point skilling when all the hard work is subverted by crazy eco galactic chips with low level req's, or whatever. What is the point hunting/mining/crafting when there is no mark up to be chased and very few to buy.

I think this quote of yours points exactly where lies the difference between your vision and the one I share with AJ and please allow me to explain.

I think there are three main categories of people playing the game: gamblers, investors and consumers.

I don't think I have to talk much about gamblers - we all know them and, just like AJ, I think that MA did a great job by creating a little game in the game for them (the EP IV BPs); considering that all professions are designed in such a way that "the house" always has a cut of the rolled money, it means they are practically paying (a big part of) the bills for the rest of us. They may not give us PEDs directly anymore (by paying MUs for our hunted/looted/crafted items), but, by playing on their EP IV "slots machine", they do pay a fair amount of money to MA, allowing them to keep the boat floating. And, since all of them, pay their share, it's obviously that "the more the better" - actually, instead of showing them all the hate that they are shown, I think we all should encourage them to keep gambling and loosing money. ;)

Then there are the "investors", people that are in here mostly for the RCE factor, that try to play smart and "beat the game", that expect their "investments" to retain their value and even give them positive returns. And I think here can be included all kind of people - from the free players that expect to pay their next computer with sweat to the big land/business owners who spent a considerable amount of money and who want to recover their investment, then even make profit. A certain number of such "investors" are for sure needed, since there would be no real "economy" without them, but just like in real life, they should represent a minority, not a majority. Luckily, not all that try to achieve that also succeed, because, if they would, the game would be belly up since a long time ago, for the simple fact that these players (if successful) instead of representing a source of income, (would) end up representing a net lose for MA. And, honestly, I think we have too many such players.

Finally, there are the "consumers" or the casual gamers... that play the game for fun, not for making profit. You ask what is the point buying equipment any more when you know that something better will be introduced next VUs that will make said equipment lose his value and eventually become obsolete? Well, let me ask you a few similar questions? What is the point in buying a computer, knowing that some better computers will appear in the following months that will make your computer lose his value and eventually become obsolete? What is the point of WoW players wasting their time, nerves and keyboards in end-game raids to get best-in-slot gear, knowing that said gear become obsolete any time a new patch is applied? And the answer is simple... the point is that these items provide entertainment value for the time while they last... and no, they are not stupid or anything, they are fully aware that their items (either we talk about RL or virtual ones) will lose value over time, but they're OK with that, because they don't treat the money deposited here as an investment (that they necessarily want back, eventually with some profit), but as an expense for their entertainment. Such people don't mind that the gun they paid $80 on last Christmas is only valuing $20 nowadays; they'll just buy a new, better gun, from their $80 Christmas deposit of this year; they don't really mind that animal oil MU dropped from 104% to 101%, they're TTing it anyway and eat the lose, just because they can't be bothered trying to squeeze every PED or PEC. And, honestly, I think we have too few such players.

And thing is that exactly this kind of players should represent the majority of players if we want a healthy economy and, more important, a sustainable and profitable game that will still be alive and prospering years from now on. And yeah, I think that's the kind of players the devs should focus on attracting, by lowering the cost to play, create more content for low to mid level players, bring more predictability in looting, etc, because, at the end of the day, is the players that are OK with paying for their entertainment (loosing money) that pay the server bills, not the ones that (want to) make profit and withdraw. Everyone knows WOW because of the hard core raiders (and they indeed, advertised the game for years), but truth is that for every one hard core raider that finish heroic raids and stuff like that, there are over 100 players that just pay their subscription fee to have fun with their friends.
 
I think this quote of yours points exactly where lies the difference between your vision and the one I share with AJ and please allow me to explain.

I think there are three main categories of people playing the game: gamblers, investors and consumers.

I don't think I have to talk much about gamblers - we all know them and, just like AJ, I think that MA did a great job by creating a little game in the game for them (the EP IV BPs); considering that all professions are designed in such a way that "the house" always has a cut of the rolled money, it means they are practically paying (a big part of) the bills for the rest of us. They may not give us PEDs directly anymore (by paying MUs for our hunted/looted/crafted items), but, by playing on their EP IV "slots machine", they do pay a fair amount of money to MA, allowing them to keep the boat floating. And, since all of them, pay their share, it's obviously that "the more the better" - actually, instead of showing them all the hate that they are shown, I think we all should encourage them to keep gambling and loosing money. ;)

Then there are the "investors", people that are in here mostly for the RCE factor, that try to play smart and "beat the game", that expect their "investments" to retain their value and even give them positive returns. And I think here can be included all kind of people - from the free players that expect to pay their next computer with sweat to the big land/business owners who spent a considerable amount of money and who want to recover their investment, then even make profit. A certain number of such "investors" are for sure needed, since there would be no real "economy" without them, but just like in real life, they should represent a minority, not a majority. Luckily, not all that try to achieve that also succeed, because, if they would, the game would be belly up since a long time ago, for the simple fact that these players (if successful) instead of representing a source of income, (would) end up representing a net lose for MA. And, honestly, I think we have too many such players.

Finally, there are the "consumers" or the casual gamers... that play the game for fun, not for making profit. You ask what is the point buying equipment any more when you know that something better will be introduced next VUs that will make said equipment lose his value and eventually become obsolete? Well, let me ask you a few similar questions? What is the point in buying a computer, knowing that some better computers will appear in the following months that will make your computer lose his value and eventually become obsolete? What is the point of WoW players wasting their time, nerves and keyboards in end-game raids to get best-in-slot gear, knowing that said gear become obsolete any time a new patch is applied? And the answer is simple... the point is that these items provide entertainment value for the time while they last... and no, they are not stupid or anything, they are fully aware that their items (either we talk about RL or virtual ones) will lose value over time, but they're OK with that, because they don't treat the money deposited here as an investment (that they necessarily want back, eventually with some profit), but as an expense for their entertainment. Such people don't mind that the gun they paid $80 on last Christmas is only valuing $20 nowadays; they'll just buy a new, better gun, from their $80 Christmas deposit of this year; they don't really mind that animal oil MU dropped from 104% to 101%, they're TTing it anyway and eat the lose, just because they can't be bothered trying to squeeze every PED or PEC. And, honestly, I think we have too few such players.

And thing is that exactly this kind of players should represent the majority of players if we want a healthy economy and, more important, a sustainable and profitable game that will still be alive and prospering years from now on. And yeah, I think that's the kind of players the devs should focus on attracting, by lowering the cost to play, create more content for low to mid level players, bring more predictability in looting, etc, because, at the end of the day, is the players that are OK with paying for their entertainment (loosing money) that pay the server bills, not the ones that (want to) make profit and withdraw. Everyone knows WOW because of the hard core raiders (and they indeed, advertised the game for years), but truth is that for every one hard core raider that finish heroic raids and stuff like that, there are over 100 players that just pay their subscription fee to have fun with their friends.

I think we need all types of player for EU to work, i'm not really an investor type, more casual but try to make my books balance. I can't grumble at all, not lost thousands of dollars, not made thousands either lol; for me the game has been about surviving in the RCE. We all know that unless you get lottery lucky, the only way to make deposits eek out (especially for lower/mid players/depositors) is through mark up and thats how i have played so long on so little. MA still made their cut, but through mark up and healing or whatever managed to build up over the years. I depo'd every 2 weeks and invested in my avatar so guess should be the type of player MA want, not a freeloader, turning over ped, auctioning, healing etc etc. Till last migration i was ahead 3k ped lol, and by healing alone made more than that :laugh: so MA had a fair share believe me:), atm without skills am maybe in hole 3k ped or so, no biggy and don't mind that.

What i do worry about though is a "run on the bank", for instance i know of some mighty big withdraws over last year from some big players (1 million ped, 500,000 ped, etc). Some LA owners so profit, others players who deposited over years and used to be online 24/7 turning over ped. I worry that over last couple of months healing big turnover players with imp fap (not my fap btw) that i have seen them endure losses that would make you and me cry, and not seeing many (if any) profit runs.

Any economy relies heavily on confidence within it (especially virtual ones), and it is that which i am trying to put over to Avon. I agree totally on cost to play, new player retention, new missions etc for lower end players etc... but i just fear that they will lose more than they gain with some things they doing and direction.

I'll play whatever, never played for profit really just to survive but for me at least hunting/mining etc just to tt seems asinine and isn't a sign of a healthy economy at all. It's a difficult thing to balance (i wouldn't like the job :)), and if things are going south i'm sure MA will react accordingly.

On a final note you talk about if you $80 gun devalued to $20 and you would be ok with it, but some in game paid $2k, $4k, $10k etc etc and devalued half or whatever (not me btw just one item devalued so not hit to badly) would you still be ok with that? Would you feel owning/buying anything again would be worth doing when game devs sellling stuff better and cheaper direct? This is the main concern i see going forward, and judging by sale threads everywhere others also. Saw an adjusted Unlimited SK50 at +10 start bid other night lol.. no bids, went through last week +90 start bid and no takers.

All the best

Dibbler :)
 
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On a final note you talk about if you $80 gun devalued to $20 and you would be ok with it, but some in game paid $2k, $4k, $10k etc etc and devalued half or whatever (not me btw just one item devalued so not hit to badly) would you still be ok with that? Would you feel owning/buying anything again would be worth doing when game devs sellling stuff better and cheaper direct?

Personally, I would never spend this amount of money on a game, but yeah, is just the same thing... IRL there are people that buy alienware computers, designer dresses or ferrari and rolls cars... and guess what, those lose their value just like their generic counterparts (percent wise)... is just about at how much money per hour you value your entertainment...
 
Feel I have to make an important point about MA's liability here...

All TT has to be covered by cash reserves - it is a frozen system in that the only input is deposits (PED in) and the only output is MA's activity rake & sales to MA (i.e. your losses on hunting (TT) and sales of capital items).

The rest of the game is locked value on PED TT. Yes, MA will not have the reserves to cover all the Modfap prices (lets say, $300k of modfaps?) but for that money to be generated, some other player has to purchase the item. So there is a net-zero cost for MA.

Land owners withdrawing large amounts of PED is a very, very good thing - it means they have generated this PED from the rake on their land (4% say) with MA's rake (5% say) on top, so if a land owner is pulling 400k ped out, MA has generated 500k ped from the same activities of the players using the LAs.

MA has zero risk on value of items, that's purely on the player.
 
Feel I have to make an important point about MA's liability here...

All TT has to be covered by cash reserves - it is a frozen system in that the only input is deposits (PED in) and the only output is MA's activity rake & sales to MA (i.e. your losses on hunting (TT) and sales of capital items).

The rest of the game is locked value on PED TT. Yes, MA will not have the reserves to cover all the Modfap prices (lets say, $300k of modfaps?) but for that money to be generated, some other player has to purchase the item. So there is a net-zero cost for MA.

Land owners withdrawing large amounts of PED is a very, very good thing - it means they have generated this PED from the rake on their land (4% say) with MA's rake (5% say) on top, so if a land owner is pulling 400k ped out, MA has generated 500k ped from the same activities of the players using the LAs.

MA has zero risk on value of items, that's purely on the player.

Thats comforting to know, i'll chat to friend in game who told me differently to see how she came to that conclusion.

Said all i can at any rate on economy, i'll back out of discussion now as have said everything i can at any rate. :)
 
Feel I have to make an important point about MA's liability here...

All TT has to be covered by cash reserves - it is a frozen system in that the only input is deposits (PED in) and the only output is MA's activity rake & sales to MA (i.e. your losses on hunting (TT) and sales of capital items).

The rest of the game is locked value on PED TT. Yes, MA will not have the reserves to cover all the Modfap prices (lets say, $300k of modfaps?) but for that money to be generated, some other player has to purchase the item. So there is a net-zero cost for MA.

Land owners withdrawing large amounts of PED is a very, very good thing - it means they have generated this PED from the rake on their land (4% say) with MA's rake (5% say) on top, so if a land owner is pulling 400k ped out, MA has generated 500k ped from the same activities of the players using the LAs.

MA has zero risk on value of items, that's purely on the player.

Thats comforting to know, i'll chat to friend in game who told me differently to see how she came to that conclusion. I've edited my post and removed that statement and will check it out further. :)

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...-Report-2014&p=3382434&viewfull=1#post3382434

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...-Report-2014&p=3382838&viewfull=1#post3382838

From last years financials, i'm no accountant though (but a good friend is ;)), so will get him to check over the report from last year over next few days. I won't add any more to thread though, just will check out for self interest.


I've said everything i can about worries and economy, ill back out now as nothing more to add :).
 
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Thats comforting to know, i'll chat to friend in game who told me differently to see how she came to that conclusion. I've edited my post and removed that statement and will check it out further. :)

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...-Report-2014&p=3382434&viewfull=1#post3382434

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...-Report-2014&p=3382838&viewfull=1#post3382838

From last years financials, i'm no accountant though (but a good friend is ;)), so will get him to check over the report from last year over next few days. I won't add any more to thread though, just will check out for self interest.


I've said everything i can about worries and economy, ill back out now as nothing more to add :).

As far as I'm aware, or at least, the way I would do it, would be to include the held TT value of the game as an expense; this way, you would reduce the income tax paid on sales to customers (PED deposit). Effectively, you would only pay tax on the profit; which would be the rake minus all operating costs (personnel, utilities etc).

Otherwise as has been discussed before, massive red flags would be raised by any competent auditor.

This is also why I believe web-shop sales to be damaging - you are paying MA the MU, not another player, which effectively removes your deposited PED from the system in a second way to MA's rake (though technically it didn't enter the system).

$10,000 deposited to buy an item from another player (tt=250ped) = net gain to the system of 99750 PED.
$10,000 deposited direct to buy an item from MA (tt=250ped) = net gain to the system of 250 PED.

The only way these two situations equate, is if the selling player instantly withdraws cash, which is fine, but the RCE element still exists in that they could opt to keep a portion or all of the funds in-game, thus boosting the economy. In the webshop scenario, there is no boost to the economy until the purchasing player sells the item on.
 
Fantastic post, I couldn't have said it better myself.

I've got a ton of stuff I'd like to add to that assessment but I'll try to keep it short.

Part of the problem with the economy is they are trying to base it on the real world economy which in itself isn't even sustainable. That's why every country is billions (or trillions) in debt which will never be paid off, the top 2% of businesses literally have ALL the money, products are overproduced, employees are underpaid and the government is taxing the very life out of everyone to fund crap like bailout, subsidies and interest payments on their massive debt.

It's admirable that they are trying to adjust the economy to be something more stable but there is one huge flaw. Which is there is no new value created in the game by participants.

In the real world new companies start, new products are invented and people can sell ANY unique product or service they want. Thus creating value. The government profits from this via tax.

In a virtual world like Entropia... No new money is created through value of independent product or service. The only new money is coming from new people that are brought into the fold and the money is just being shuffled around with the people at the top taking a cut constantly bringing down the overall value of what is shuffled around until no one has anything except the top people. And as soon as the influx of new members (bringing in money) stops the system breaks down.

In order to really create a sustainable economy there's a few major changes that would have to take place beyond what's already in place.

For starters, they need to abandon the original creed of "everything you do has a real value attached to it" to something like "many things you do have a real value attached to it".

In order to attract more players and bridge that noob/uber gap they need to make things more inviting from those coming from an MMO like guildwars, WoW...etc. More things that don't require cash outlay - maybe a planet devoted to this style of gameplay?

The idea being that you get people in on a new planet which is essentially an MMO that functions very similar to others but you have that evolutionary step for people to eventually make the leap from free gaming to paid gaming in time.

People play for free, gain some skills (new non-chipable skills that impact various professions) start growing their avatar where it's free but they are occasionally dipping a toe into the paid realm. Think micro payments...

Think another layer on the existing systems of the game. A new type of universal-style ammo that has 1/100th the TT. People can pay as little as $2 USD to get a pile of non-refundable ammo that in essence can go as far as 200 peds of regular ammo. This new type of ammo could only be used on that planet or against certain certain creatures...etc. Think a new type of damage that can be done (burn, penetration, shapnel, molecular) and this type of damage affects creature differently. For regular mobs it only does 1/10th the damage but on those pre-dermined "freemium" mobs it does regular damage. The freemium mobs loots is adjusted to have a lower much general TT value but still have the option to loot good stuff (if that makes sense).

Anyways.... there's a lot they can do, I'm excited to see how the game progresses.
 
Think another layer on the existing systems of the game. A new type of universal-style ammo that has 1/100th the TT. People can pay as little as $2 USD to get a pile of non-refundable ammo that in essence can go as far as 200 peds of regular ammo. This new type of ammo could only be used on that planet or against certain certain creatures...etc. Think a new type of damage that can be done (burn, penetration, shapnel, molecular) and this type of damage affects creature differently. For regular mobs it only does 1/10th the damage but on those pre-dermined "freemium" mobs it does regular damage. The freemium mobs loots is adjusted to have a lower much general TT value but still have the option to loot good stuff (if that makes sense).

Anyways.... there's a lot they can do, I'm excited to see how the game progresses.

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...ting-weapons&p=2076369&viewfull=1#post2076369


https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...-melee-stuff&p=2525213&viewfull=1#post2525213

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...rowing-Items!)&p=749414&viewfull=1#post749414

Stones are in game and free to pick up... give em some more use.
 
My take away from this thread, is reflected by my in-game experience:

Mark-up is falling. On just about everything. And only the players are losing because of this, in general.

I bought a Hedoc Mayhem for +1300....a few months later MU is +600. I was very happy when i found out i could hunt Madana on ark for very little decay, and get a good MU item with madana tails(~750%). Now MU is ~300% and falling.

Over my 3 years in game, i have put in ~1900$, comparable to the annual cost of a cigarette habit, maybe a little less. i have close to that amount just in an UL Tiger set, so overall i have done pretty well(i like to think :) ). I have been careful, run a small fapping service(with most of my work coming during migration), and been very conservative. If i also count the value of my skills i'm positive overall.

But still, i cant shake the feeling that is expressed here, that MA is shifting value out of markup, and making the TT a more desirable option, because the time and effort spent to get the markup just is not worth it, in most cases, for a player like me. With a few exceptions of course.

Will this be a positive change overall? Or help pull in, and retain, new players? Will this drive the whales away? Only time will tell I guess.
 
Mark-up is falling. On just about everything. And only the players are losing because of this, in general.

Well, markup is just transferring value from one player to an other, so in total the players don't loose anything by a lower markup. It don't matter for MA. But the game is much more boring without MU, the game needs MU to make it more interesting. I wish they did a redesign of the loot-system, add money to the loot again, I prefer money compared to ammo, but both would work. Also make fewer, but bigger stacks of items in the loot. I prefer to loot 1 stack of 10 items, than 10 stacks of 1 items. So fewer stackables and more money instead of items, but when you find stackables, make them bigger.
 
Well, the changing EU economy... hmmm
I'm taking a little breath and pondering this on the basis of what we now know about compet.

It has not been stated that the main connection between EU and compet is simply the name of the currency, without any (initial?) ability to transfer peds across accounts.

Now it has been said that this could be a security precaution, in case there are any massive exploits or whatever in ComPet that could transfer across to EU, but I don't buy into that one, unless there is some new system for transferring low ped amounts into real currency quickly from compet.

Anyway, we have also had mentioned that stable owners will have a means of transferring pets across, but I assume not at the beginning. I could be wrong here, though, but it's an important question of what slightly higher stats transferred pets will have, starting off at bristles, arrets and other punies, up to other higher peds.

If there is almost no connection, then I feel that pets and stables will just die out as areas people will be interested in. I see no economic area in EU right now that I have any confidence in, including land plots and harvesting. The 'promised' concentration on a space update after compet comes is just another MA promise, as far as I'm concerned.

All in all, I'm not confident of a positive future right now.... just of a continued existence.
I doubt compet will make much money for anyone - most will indeed play for free I think from what I have seen so far. Pity really - I hope I'm being pessimistic.....
 
Well, markup is just transferring value from one player to an other, so in total the players don't loose anything by a lower markup. It don't matter for MA. But the game is much more boring without MU, the game needs MU to make it more interesting. I wish they did a redesign of the loot-system, add money to the loot again, I prefer money compared to ammo, but both would work. Also make fewer, but bigger stacks of items in the loot. I prefer to loot 1 stack of 10 items, than 10 stacks of 1 items. So fewer stackables and more money instead of items, but when you find stackables, make them bigger.

OK....really? So less value being transferred does not equal a loss? You directly contradicted yourself in the same sentence. It DOES mean a direct loss, in fact that is exactly what it means for the players. And yes i kinda stated that MA is not affected. Maybe the gist of what i was saying got lost in translation or something? Because we kind of arrived at the same point from different directions. All except the idea that less MU doesn't mean a loss for the players..which i don't get at all, because indeed players are the only ones affected by MU.
 
"so in total the players don't loose anything by a lower markup."
I think the "in total" is what he means, but it makes a big difference to a market as a whole that there should be a hot side and a cold side. You should have to fight through the cold to get to the hot. If you get close to equilibrium (no mu), then things will stagnate, as many would appear to be observing....
 
Best post I have seen in a long time, Thanks!
 
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