Transparency back into the forum and game......

Shouldn't really need reporting by members as the forum has "automated multiple-account detection software"

It's not difficult to get around these sort of checks if that is your desire. So there could well be undetected alt accounts.

And coming from the other angle, there are a number of scenarios that can generate false positives so does need to be a human review of any detected alts.
 
I still after all these years want to know the avatar names behind the duping, one question i always ask myself is why do not "ubers" give out this information when you ask them about it.

I dont know why people trying to keep secrets about scams and duping. I'm sure people know about the duping who did it etc. Question we have to ask ourself is why the information is not released to everyone? (atleast when we ask for it) it feels fishy that after so long time none step forward and tell us the story. Maybe the duper's is still in the game playing at a level most people can only dream of?
 
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I dont know why people trying to keep secrets about scams and duping.
If I were the one who pulled off some successful exploit in the past, I would want to keep it secret from other players. Even if I knew MA found it out. Even if they already punished me for it.

Why?

Witch hunt effect. Should I ever find myself in a situation where I was suspected in exploiting again. Suppose there was nothing this time. But everybody knew I had the similar issues before - could the angry mob force the hand of the judge? Maybe, maybe not, right? But why would I want to take the chances.... ?

Oh come on please....... are you telling me you cant see people using fake accounts to sell things..... its not rocket science........ certain items from certain avatars just doesn't add up, cross reference with some history knowledge and some facts from tracker and boom, it will hit you in the face!!
Nope. It doesn't. This is called jumping the gun.
I can hire another person as a promoter for the items I want to sell. In game, on forums, on any channel available. This person will never prolly even see any items he's advertising. BOOM, there goes your theory...
 
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If I were the one who pulled off some successful exploit in the past, I would want to keep it secret from other players. Even if I knew MA found it out. Even if they already punished me for it.

Why?

Witch hunt effect. Should I ever find myself in a situation where I was suspected in exploiting again. Suppose there was nothing this time. But everybody knew I had the similar issues before - could the angry mob force the hand of the judge? Maybe, maybe not, right? But why would I want to take the chances.... ?

I am not expecting the dupers or exploiter himself to step forward and tell everyone HEY i just duped the hell out of the game. What i do expect is people with insight of what happend, that they pass on the story to everyone.

I just find it odd that none in the game know anything about it. Yet they claim that it happend and no one have a "clue" who did it. I think it's because some duped items are still in the game and people do not want to lose them.
 
You hire promoters to sell items because many of us have jobs. I would hire one and have because I don't play during peak times (swedish) and not everyone goes to pcf. Also sometimes are just better sellers than me. I'd make a lousy car salesman. My wife does negotiations if we buy a car.
 
I am not expecting the dupers or exploiter himself to step forward and tell everyone HEY i just duped the hell out of the game. What i do expect is people with insight of what happend, that they pass on the story to everyone.

I just find it odd that none in the game know anything about it. Yet they claim that it happend and none have a "clue" who did it. I think it's because some duped items are still in the game and people do not want to lose them.

I know a lot about the duping... in fact, based on the things which were duped you should still be able to figure out who did it :)

And yes, all duped items are still in the game...
 
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Oh come on please....... are you telling me you cant see people using fake accounts to sell things..... its not rocket science........ certain items from certain avatars just doesn't add up, cross reference with some history knowledge and some facts from tracker and boom, it will hit you in the face!!

I fully understand all the pro's and con's of selling this way, but as I've already stated that the post is not about naming and shaming, I would just like a clean transparent forum, as I am sure 95% of the other people do.

There's a lot of assumptions in your conclusions. Tracker can't really be used for anything... Nothing conclusive. To make conclusions, we need facts.. not opinions, speculations, or objective observations.

I realize that we would all feel better if we all knew each and every person behind every avatar.. that we didn't have alts to fight with and that we could sleep at night knowing we don't have to worry about some.. (for example) sleezy scumbag selling items (like Terra Amp bps) at rediculous prices and scamming people for tens of thousands of peds. But those are simply unrealistic expectations. There's only so much pcf can do (example.. the person referenced above was banned) and mindark can only do so much because you can't really prove who is an alt or not by Metadata alone... not without getting into legal issues (as money is in play).
 
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So I guess duplicated items did happen in the past, so the unique code to each item is not true?

all items now have ID due to the duping. i do not think they had it before no.
 
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Ok so here is a hypothetical occasion.....

Player A is selling a top end gun (only 3 know guns in game) ......... fact

Player A has 10 posts on the forum.....fact

Player A has no history on tracker since 2012 ...... fact

Player A history of tracker is shooting Atrax young ......fact

Player A has a total loot history of 3000 ped...... fact

What would your opinion be, and what would you speculate?

Yes, it does raise a flag and that should simply make you cautious. That does not mean you claim there is a conspiracy, start a witch hunt, or anything of the sort that would claim this person is scamiming, doing something illegal, etc because not everything is always as they seem especially when many are quick to assume the other person is suspect.

This person could simply be selling an item for another person on commission and it breaks down EVERY fact you claim. If I could sell items by having others do it for a %, I would do it every time. I hate selling stuff. It ruins my play time.

You just don't always have the whole story. Your only play here is to either ignore those avatar or report to mindark for investigation. If you don't think they'll do the latter, then you shouldn't play this game because you'll constantly be agitated.
 
I was under the impression that the dupe bug, was a repair issue. Place item in repair then log off and back on and bang, you had another item. Which ever way it happened this was before item ID's.


Rgds

Ace
 
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Yes, it does raise a flag and that should simply make you cautious. That does not mean you claim there is a conspiracy, start a witch hunt, or anything of the sort that would claim this person is scamiming, doing something illegal, etc because not everything is always as they seem especially when many are quick to assume the other person is suspect.

This person could simply be selling an item for another person on commission and it breaks down EVERY fact you claim. If I could sell items by having others do it for a %, I would do it every time. I hate selling stuff. It ruins my play time.

You just don't always have the whole story. Your only play here is to either ignore those avatar or report to mindark for investigation. If you don't think they'll do the latter, then you shouldn't play this game because you'll constantly be agitated.


I have to disagree with you I think it's perfectly fine that people see these warning signs. and report it to the community. If the seller is indeed true and he have nothing to hide then what's the problem? I could not care less if this happend to me. If i use my GF to sell items for me (which i do) and you guys though my GF was my alt i would be pleased to hear that the community looked into it.

But then again people that have something to hide problaby do not like this idea.
 
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Interesting, I was always lead to believe each item had a unique ID tag/code
The correct answer is: yes and no.

On the database level every line in the database (item and it's properties: weight, type, name, location, owner, etc) has unique ID. They had it before the Universe was created, before the beginning of time.
The reason is simple, databases can't work without unique ID's.

On the game interface level there was a time when the unique ID was not displayed anywhere. It was always there but you could not see it.

* * *

What Aio said about all the duped stuff still being in game is extremely intriguing. There was an easy way to undo the whole thing. If MA decided to not do this there had to be a very good reason. I cannot think of any, but that doesn't mean there couldn't be one. Maybe it's just that I can't think of it.
Either way, real interesting stuff. :smoke:
 
Ok so here is a hypothetical occasion.....

Player A is selling a top end gun (only 3 know guns in game) ......... fact

Player A has 10 posts on the forum.....fact

Player A has no history on tracker since 2012 ...... fact

Player A history of tracker is shooting Atrax young ......fact

Player A has a total loot history of 3000 ped...... fact

What would your opinion be, and what would you speculate?

Opinion (a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.)
Needs to be checked out before looking to purchase. Talk with them and see what the deal is. If I'm not looking to purchase, I would not investigate to the level you are indicating.​

Speculate (form a theory or conjecture about a subject without firm evidence.)
could be a reseller/broker. Could be a friend. Could be a Alt. Could be a scammer. Too many options to accuse someone of a crime so I would not venture to Speculate​

Notice, both of these items are based on not having facts/evidence.
 
The reason is simple, databases can't work without unique ID's.

Sure they can. As a DBA I have seen a number of application databases that include tables with no primary key.

It's not good practice but it happens.
 
Can't prove anything really, even if MA tracked ip/mac address then could be another family member acting on their behalf. So even though i suspect there are many alts/auction ava's etc (ok fairly sure), for Mindark to distinguish legit family/friends from alts is impossible.

As for stuff back in the days of duping etc, remember game was in dev/beta/alpha stage so mistakes were bound to happen. Before anyone says, i personally wasn't there but have heard over years various stories "legend tells...."

Not really worth getting worked up about, it is what it is. All you can do is not buy/sell/deal with them if gets to you.
 
Sure they can. As a DBA I have seen a number of application databases that include tables with no primary key.

It's not good practice but it happens.
Oh c'mon u not serious...

The question isn't if this is possible... or if it's good or bad practice.
You have a server for a MMO with thousands of simultaneous clients. You have a central database on your server, it stores info about all the items in the whole game. Tables in this database have no primary key.

Really?

Well suppose if the intent was to create a really easygoing system...
Like, no error messages, no ID conflicts, ever...
Want to track something? Sry buddy can't, no unique ID's...
Items moving from one ava to another, peds flowing right and left but you have no idea how to track any of this. Not using direct database query, not from logs, there's absolutely no way whatsoever...

Certainly looks like a perfect match for a RCE game if u ask me! :laugh:


Well MA is known for their infinite wisdom but I think u overestimate their abilities a little. :p
 
Oh c'mon u not serious...

The question isn't if this is possible... or if it's good or bad practice.
You have a server for a MMO with thousands of simultaneous clients. You have a central database on your server, it stores info about all the items in the whole game. Tables in this database have no primary key.

Really?

Well suppose if the intent was to create a really easygoing system...
Like, no error messages, no ID conflicts, ever...
Want to track something? Sry buddy can't, no unique ID's...
Items moving from one ava to another, peds flowing right and left but you have no idea how to track any of this. Not using direct database query, not from logs, there's absolutely no way whatsoever...

Certainly looks like a perfect match for a RCE game if u ask me! :laugh:


Well MA is known for their infinite wisdom but I think u overestimate their abilities a little. :p

No item IDs = Duping fiasco, EU is nether the first nor the last MMO to have this happen.
 
I don't know how MA coded their system back in the day. I can think of a few ways they could have set up to manage things without giving items persistent unique ids. You don't necessarily need a table that contains all instantiations of items and stackables. I'm not saying it's good practice. I am claiming from experience that it happens and I could (if I didn't have better ways to spend my time) model a db design that allows the use cases in this game without requiring unique item ids.

Regards,
KikkiJikki
 
I don't know how MA coded their system back in the day. I can think of a few ways they could have set up to manage things without giving items persistent unique ids. You don't necessarily need a table that contains all instantiations of items and stackables. I'm not saying it's good practice. I am claiming from experience that it happens and I could (if I didn't have better ways to spend my time) model a db design that allows the use cases in this game without requiring unique item ids.

Regards,
KikkiJikki

If you're really a DBA, you'll know that making THAT work will be much MUCH harder to do than just use default unique keys. I really doubt that it was ever the case in EU databases.
 
If you're really a DBA, you'll know that making THAT work will be much MUCH harder to do than just use default unique keys. I really doubt that it was ever the case in EU databases.

We are getting a little bit off track here but one way do do it would be to be along the long the lines of

Avatar table unique key avatar_id (could be name).
attributes such as skills, body characteristics, ped card balance.

avatar_owned table, unique key key, avatarid + avatar_owned_id (you could choose to have a surrogate key if you are not a fan of segmented keys).
attributes such as
Item_name_id, quantity, tier rates, current tier level, current_TT, location (carried, equipped, storage, shop id. box id, AH, etc) plus no doubt others.

we can see if you check your items on the web page that each line has an id associated with it that is only unique to your avatar.

Item table containing details of each type of item in the game. eg cap20d, output amp component, etc
Unique key, Item_name_id
Attributes
item_name (also is unique)
relevant properties of the item, eg max tt, max dam, range, etc

An auction table that links to avatar_Owned key and has attributes governing the auction in progress.

and we also need to track stuff in the EU worlds. one way this could be done is by a table very similar to the avatar_owned, including an attribute for location.

Then all you need to do is have methods that modifies a row or removes a row from one table and adds an equivalent row to another table. All that provides for p2p trades, drop and pick up, putting stuff in auction, TTing gear.

We also know from the impact of server crashes, that some game situations are tracked in server state rather than in the database. For example a mob positions and state (alive/dead), gear in the repair console, uncommitted sales and TT ops.

Now I am not saying this is the best way but I am saying its not difficult. And there can be good (and bad) reasons for
- running with a db that is not fully normalised
- not setting up unique keys on some tables
- choosing to run instantiated objects that are not stored as entities but instead as attributes of another entity.

Performance is one such reason, coding effort is another, poor understanding of good coding practice is another.

And of course there good reasons to do things "properly". If we are to believe the duping stories, EU has already suffered from the impact of not following good practice.

I repeat, I don't know what MA did or didn't do. But it would work, it would conform with what we have seen and it wouldn't necessarily be any more effort than best practice. In fact one of the reasons best practice is not followed is because it is easier not to. No one has claimed that MA are programming gurus or strong on forethought and thinking things through.

Regards,
KikkiJIkki
 
I'm hesitant to give too much information (I know it's all cloak and daggers, I'm sorry).

Mod Faps aren't the best way to track duping as there are relatively lots of them and there is no comparator item. Additionally you must remember that duping was done back in the day when there was literally zero markup for anything - TT'd shadow armour for example.

The example I'll give - Storm Coats (F) - the relative numbers of them compared to Storm Coat (M) are massive. I also know for a fact they were duped.

One thing I do not know is the exact mechanism of duplication - I've heard rumours here and there but I wouldn't have the first clue about item IDs back then, I was 14 years old and just played this very interesting game called PE haha.

Back on topic, I can't see why an item ID would be difficult to pop on the item stats page, and it would be nice to track these for the ultra-rare stuff.
 
We are getting a little bit off track here but one way do do it would be to be along the long the lines of

Avatar table unique key avatar_id (could be name).
attributes such as skills, body characteristics, ped card balance.

avatar_owned table, unique key key, avatarid + avatar_owned_id (you could choose to have a surrogate key if you are not a fan of segmented keys).
...
You definitely know your trade and I respect ppl who are really good at what they do. Cheers!

So, I stand corrected, you don't need unique ID's for the database to work. You don't need any keys, you don't even need any tables but you still have a database, it works, you can query it and all.

However, once you have gone through all the intellectual gymnastics just to avoid using the classical method, you'll still end up with having some kind of unique identifiers, right?
If so... we're back to square one:
There always was unique identifiers for the items. It's just that we couldn't see them on any user interface.


If we try to remain objective we shouldn't presume the team of programmers who created the original code for PE were not professionals. It's just that those ppl rarely stay, usually most of em move on to some new project. Most of em and sometimes all of em...


The duping exploit doesn't prove there was no unique ID's.
For a large live server u can't afford to shut down your whole database over a single error. You can't afford that. So instead u design automatic error handling procedures that will take care of the problem and raise a flag somewhere server side for the admin to take care later. If there is any admins left who know what this flag is or even where to look to see it, ... or they too busy surfing the net looking for a new car... or playing some obscure online RCE game nobody has even heard about... :D
 
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