A productive discussion on presidency and paid teleporter system

hottygurl

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There is no Random - VR Political Activist
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Shadowfire Hottygurl Of The Phoenix
First, read the front page post on presidentofvirtualreality.com on how a paid teleporter system is reportedly on the way.

I would like to establish this thread as a forum for discussion of productive ideas on how we can take the idea of the paid teleporter system. Please keep discussion polite and provide facts to back up your suggestions.

The first comes the commonly held problems:
1) We have a leadership taking actions against our best interests and democratic voice, without representation we were promised! We are facing an autocracy instead of a democracy.
2) We do not wish to pay for existant content all of a sudden that was basic functionality before, such as walking up to and accessing a teleporter or trade terminal or auctioneer, we should not have it forced on us.
3) Mindark proposed that we have to pay them 75% of the fees to their furthering of their platform, when they said they were going to foot the bill previously.
4) We are facing a ponzi scheme where a limited number of deeds are able to be sold as people will not endlessly invest in these, yet the payout is infinite and scaling upwards exponentially. There's no source for the pay.

The benefits of having a paid transportation service:
1) The economy was healthier on each of the planet partners when you could not act on other planets' auction houses from a remote location. Pilots played a much greater role in this functionality that drove this economy, so the pilot system should exist instead of teleporters between planets. The business between planets or time investment to fly yourself does drive the economy, but it currently offers zero content for the player besides to stare off into space mindlessly while shuttling a person around.


The benefits we can extract from this system:
1) A teleporter defense system where mobs/robots can invade teleporters and shut them down I am for, as it adds content to our system. This should be the tax we pay, the ped we burn to keep them alive at certain locations, but we need to be rewarded with markup items and a stable economy instead of just speculative-valued items or free services that already are given for free. If new teleporters are added or certain ones are subject to invasion through various storyline events like the old jam raiders, you instead build new content in the game and don't screw us further.




Lets have a discussion to try to clarify or elaborate on the majority opinions on a few things, let the feathers fly. Lets try to look at this from as positive a direction as possible, and focus on changing things before something very bad effects us all catastrophically.

Lets use this thread as a public forum to discuss this matter and create our OWN representation, before we lose our chance to have a voice. KEEP IT POSITIVE, good vibes people, no flaming. Lets use this as a makeshift virtual universe congress to check and balance our leadership.


Updates:
Taking from MsPudding's post, at https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?284761-The-TP-Fee-Is-Too-Damn-High!,
I feel that on the topic of 'Mindark is not your employer' this does indeed bring some truth, BUT at the same time with all of the things we are taxed on we should be seeing this money come back as ingame jobs and content. The ped we burn should be to pay mindark, the fees we pay should be to compensate systems of the game we damage such as pilots so their task can be a bit lucrative for the investment.




See my petition on change.org as well:
PCF thread: https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...n-against-our-citizenry&p=3481740#post3481740
Change.org thread:https://www.change.org/p/jan-welter...onesty-and-no-taxation-without-representation
 
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One question I would like to propose to the community...

If our vehicles offered a wide range of transportation speeds, while maintaining the same low cost to move that they have now, and we could effectively fly ourselves across the surface from port atlantis to fort zeus in 2.5-3.5 minutes for very fast ships....
Would this change the name of the game at all? I personally do not feel it would be an effective solution, but faster transport speeds from our vehicles would be much welcome. It may be useful incorporated with other things, though.

Does anyone have any other suggestions?
 
Personally I think that is a great idea!

I played lots of games without a teleporting system or where this service costed a fee (for example LOTRO, to name one that is a rather big and old name in the industry) and I think is only fair... teleporting is not something we need (everyone could just walk or use personal vehicles to get from point A to point B), but more a convenience (allows us to save time, avoid death risks, etc) and as any convenience/luxury it can easily been charged for.

And if the money generated from people using to pay money to save time would be use to reward people willing to devote time to make money then, by all means necessarily, I stand behind my president and his idea.
 
Personally I think that is a great idea!

I played lots of games without a teleporting system or where this service costed a fee (for example LOTRO, to name one that is a rather big and old name in the industry) and I think is only fair... teleporting is not something we need (everyone could just walk or use personal vehicles to get from point A to point B), but more a convenience (allows us to save time, avoid death risks, etc) and as any convenience/luxury it can easily been charged for.

And if the money generated from people using to pay money to save time would be use to reward people willing to devote time to make money then, by all means necessarily, I stand behind my president and his idea.

I feel the main problem is mindark taking 75% of the fee to pay for something they said they'd originally foot the bill for. The teleport system is also essential for newcomers to go team hunting, and for people to be able to attend events and such.
The problem with their system is they want to use a stick instead of a carrot. They want to punish and deter instead of incentivize. They don't create new content for us on a new continent on calypso without teleporters. They don't create a system where players can go out, build a teleporter by hand, and establish control over a given territory on the map due to their actions. We don't get content in exchange for what we are paying for, which is the reason why we're not for these things I feel.

If there were new categories of items introduced, such as items that could be used to change the graphics of existing other items, items that could bestow special properties on other items, items critical to the flow of the economy, mobs that dropped loot that opened new doors and didn't have competition from 'main land' caly.....we could definately see paying for it as a positive. The smuggler mission on arkadia is giving you clothes in essence in exchange for purchasing a life time Arkadia Smuggler teleporter access key so to speak. There is content there, and we pay to access that content.

Imagine a new continent with mobs all over it that had complex attack schemes and high difficulty, but had content for all levels. If we had to build teleporters on that island and the players who contributed 100 ped of supplies TT(deed cost going entirely to mindark) to its construction a got a life time pass on that teleporter.
They could crowd source creating new content by merely enabling new teleporter nodes on physically extremely challenging locations with access to unique content, and put mobs that will attack all types of vehicles in dense spawns in the way to the new node. The crowd together pays for example 20k ped of supplies TT across 200 players, they all get life time passes, and Mindark thanks us by adding new functionality and content to the area we just liberated and colonized. A colonization system where people who did not contribute have to pay to use the teleporter(contributers get a deed for that particular teleporter) would be acceptable and adds content for all.
 
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1) How a declaration of done on presidentofvirtualreality.com engage MA?

2) When this kind of major modificaiton can be activated? Players are still waiting inovation on which tons of PED/$ are invested like compet or plot deed.

3) On the presidentofvirtualreality.com/ when it speak about TP it is clearly written "fast public transporter"

Numbers of TP are not "public" but owned by players, i.e. on the TPs on the roof of Mall or te TPs placed on LA
price of a TP is 75'000 PED
 
One question I would like to propose to the community...

If our vehicles offered a wide range of transportation speeds, while maintaining the same low cost to move that they have now, and we could effectively fly ourselves across the surface from port atlantis to fort zeus in 2.5-3.5 minutes for very fast ships....
Would this change the name of the game at all? I personally do not feel it would be an effective solution, but faster transport speeds from our vehicles would be much welcome. It may be useful incorporated with other things, though.

Does anyone have any other suggestions?

For short trips using a faster mode of transport would only cost a few additional minutes of time and some oil. Some TPs are very close together, that they can be easily managed with a couple of tp chip jumps which probably cost less than the current proposed fee.

I think the fee should be such that it doesn't prohibit people making trips to places because that would be sad. The fee should be some value that we wouldn't think to much about, I don't want to have to decide is my friend worth 1 ped to go and meet up with. My suggestion is probably the fee should be around 5 or 10 pec.

What do people think about a negative balance allowance for transport as well? We have this for the buses in real life which no longer accept cash (you can use a top up card), if the top up card has run out of RL peds then you are allowed to go into negative (maximum 1 fare) to get to your destination. This prevents people from getting stuck places. Next time peds are put on the card the negative is cleared.

Also what do people think about giving new participants some (maybe 10 or 15) complementary trips, just to start them off?.
 
The president was supposed to bring solutions, and not create new problems.
 
If it costs even one nova fragment. I'm not paying it.

And as far as a VR governent? PFtt. There's the TOU. That's it. If some self-important busybody thinks I'm going to adhere to what they tell me to do. Good luck with that.
 
There are much simpler promises of things Mind Ark not implemented yet. If they can't do the simple they should not try the highly complicated which the tp system sounds like what with tokens, defense etc.












#space_flight connecting space service providers with travellers
 
...faster transport speeds from our vehicles would be much welcome.
I suspect we already are at or very close to, the engine limits. Max movement speed both in space and planetside is the same for a reason - should we go much faster we would most likely run into technical problems with client-side rendering and syncing of the data between the server and all the client computers in that area.
I suppose, but I'm not a specialist. Someone more qualified could prolly elaborate and correct me.
 
I'm a bit confused... is this something that actually have been decided by MA to implement or is it just some he want to happen? :scratch2:
 
I'm a bit confused... is this something that actually have been decided by MA to implement or is it just some he want to happen? :scratch2:

Just something he wants to happen.
 
Just something he wants to happen.

Yes but we got that one creepy response from MA saying it was just ND wild idea yet in the same ticket response spending more time justify why it would happen due to it being a player request.

hank you for your support case.

First of all, please see that this is a post from Neverdie and not MindArk, we will have further discussions with him, and of course nothing has been decided and would certainly not be decided without the feedback of the users.

However keep in mind that you the players have suggested this in the past, to for example use Sweat for fee to the Teleporters which will drive up sweat prices, you the players wanted that and have suggested it multiple times of course someone will pick up on that.

If you also look at other games there are Teleportation fees, additionally compared to using your vehicles which are now more expensive than instantly traveling with Teleporters as well.

If anything we would like to see some of the older times come back when you had to navigate through outposts and use your vehicles a bit more as they are there for a reason but as stated above all feedback will considered carefully should anything like this be implemented in the future which is not yet decided.

Kind regards,
Ulf | Entropia Universe Support
 
Yes but we got that one creepy response from MA saying it was just ND wild idea yet in the same ticket response spending more time justify why it would happen due to it being a player request.

Thats another BS MA response, they don't implement 80% of the player requests. Additionally ND is NOT a player (anymore) he is planet.partner. which is another reason he should NOT be representing the PLAYER base but that is for another thread.

Here is an example of a "player" idea/request that got a lot of positive feedback and yet never made it anywhere. Yet his idea is "taking legs" despite all the negative reactions?.?.?.?.?.
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...-terminal-at-Memorial-Island-sites&highlight=
 
Thats another BS MA response, they don't implement 80% of the player requests. Additionally ND is NOT a player (anymore) he is planet.partner. which is another reason he should NOT be representing the PLAYER base but that is for another thread.

Very true..but as well don't forget that MA already made a website about this explaining it.:scratch2:

http://www.presidentofvirtualreality.com/

See sad to say, MA says they have no idea about this and will contact ND right?

Well 75% of the reply is about why MA is doing it. now isn't this kind of odd?

  1. First of all, please see that this is a post from Neverdie and not MindArk, we will have further discussions with him, and of course nothing has been decided and would certainly not be decided without the feedback of the users.


  1. However keep in mind that you the players have suggested this in the past, to for example use Sweat for fee to the Teleporters which will drive up sweat prices, you the players wanted that and have suggested it multiple times of course someone will pick up on that.
  2. If you also look at other games there are Teleportation fees, additionally compared to using your vehicles which are now more expensive than instantly traveling with Teleporters as well.
  3. If anything we would like to see some of the older times come back when you had to navigate through outposts and use your vehicles a bit more as they are there for a reason but as stated above all feedback will considered carefully should anything like this be implemented in the future which is not yet decided.
 
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ahaa

People are so simple minded. Cant you see that this might have some all waited changes.

Sweat prices will go UP

All materials will go Higher MU, specially mining.

Oil mu will rise alot.

Vehicle Mu will rise alot.

This boosts the whole economy.


You havent even seen how this works, what will happen, and you all are so scared that you threaten to quit this game, someone even named SS camps.


Everyone wants a change, but noone wants to change. :laugh:



Im waiting eagerly for this to happen, finnaly something is happening! :yay:
 
You havent even seen how this works, what will happen, and you all are so scared that you threaten to quit this game, someone even named SS camps.


Everyone wants a change, but noone wants to change. :laugh:



Im waiting eagerly for this to happen, finnaly something is happening! :yay:

I have to ask. Are you stating this as a depositor or sweater? Of course we all want change but we do not want to spend more for change.

I have asked this before and I will ask you: would you be willing to pay MA a monthly $50.00 subscription fee along side our RCE?
 
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People are so simple minded. Cant you see that this might have some all waited changes.

Sweat prices will go UP

All materials will go Higher MU, specially mining.

Oil mu will rise alot.

Vehicle Mu will rise alot.

This boosts the whole economy.


You havent even seen how this works, what will happen, and you all are so scared that you threaten to quit this game, someone even named SS camps.


Everyone wants a change, but noone wants to change. :laugh:



Im waiting eagerly for this to happen, finnaly something is happening! :yay:

At first I thought you were kidding with your response, that's how little faith I have in these things happening. Can I point to the estate system and wood cutting systems?
Wood it totally worthless and the estates are not even half implemented. When taming came back, yes the fruit prices increased, but the spawn continues to be low or even lower some have said. I find it hard that oil MU will ever rise much - it's found so commonly and a lot of people already fly around in vehicles.
If people just decide to pay the TP fee then none of these things will increase much at all. Vehicle MU can rise all it wants, won't make a big difference. Not many people make them because everyone has what they need - demand will remain low. If you don't pvp with them, they last forever. I had the first "car" and it lasted for over 1 year.
Why would mining resources mu go up?

I agree some change can be good, and yea we can't just say oh I want change but do nothing,
but with this idea all I realistically see happening from years of playing this game is that cost to play goes up slighlty or maybe more people TP chip and mu of nexus/ME goes up like 10% max. I can't see many people investing in friggin TP fees, so really it's just MA makes more money, president makes money? and players cost more to play.
 
At first I thought you were kidding with your response, that's how little faith I have in these things happening. Can I point to the estate system and wood cutting systems?
Wood it totally worthless and the estates are not even half implemented. When taming came back, yes the fruit prices increased, but the spawn continues to be low or even lower some have said. I find it hard that oil MU will ever rise much - it's found so commonly and a lot of people already fly around in vehicles.
If people just decide to pay the TP fee then none of these things will increase much at all. Vehicle MU can rise all it wants, won't make a big difference. Not many people make them because everyone has what they need - demand will remain low. If you don't pvp with them, they last forever. I had the first "car" and it lasted for over 1 year.
Why would mining resources mu go up?

I agree some change can be good, and yea we can't just say oh I want change but do nothing,
but with this idea all I realistically see happening from years of playing this game is that cost to play goes up slighlty or maybe more people TP chip and mu of nexus/ME goes up like 10% max. I can't see many people investing in friggin TP fees, so really it's just MA makes more money, president makes money? and players cost more to play.

Well, they already introduced movement decay on some vehicles, they might consider putting theses on others as you said what the point of making more if the ones we have last forever. We don't know what they planning for the future, the whole wood and build your own department seems to be put on back burner. Maybe they too busy to compets that seem to be taking forever to implement. When that's released they are planning a lot more uses for wood and resources gathering. This might also tie in with what ND is talking about. As we know nothing might not happen for years, we can only speculate and discuss. MA will do what they want with this game and if we don't like we can just cash out and leave.
 
Yes but we got that one creepy response from MA saying it was just ND wild idea yet in the same ticket response spending more time justify why it would happen due to it being a player request.

I actually agree with some of the thoughts that MA/Ulf had about it. Especially this part:
"If anything we would like to see some of the older times come back when you had to navigate through outposts and use your vehicles a bit more as they are there for a reason but as stated above all feedback will considered carefully should anything like this be implemented in the future which is not yet decided."

This is something I think would be good for the game. Maybe cut down on the number of teleports, just have a few in some major cities to make it a bit smoother to travel from one edge of the map to the other edge of the map.
 
I actually agree with some of the thoughts that MA/Ulf had about it. Especially this part:
"If anything we would like to see some of the older times come back when you had to navigate through outposts and use your vehicles a bit more as they are there for a reason but as stated above all feedback will considered carefully should anything like this be implemented in the future which is not yet decided."

This is something I think would be good for the game. Maybe cut down on the number of teleports, just have a few in some major cities to make it a bit smoother to travel from one edge of the map to the other edge of the map.

Just delete all of the tps that LA owners have not paid for in the upgrades to their estates... All others, except maybe Port Atlantis, would go bye bye. Keep the tp charge free though, at least on the same planet... Now as for interplanetary tps, that's another story... we used to have em, and the payout on those went to hangar owners... putting in a system like that for interplanetary tps might be ok idea...

What about cities like Sakura and Omegaton where lots of apartments are but no one in the player base owns the LA?... Quite simple... there's where the future deed type of thing ND is talking about could come in to play. The shops at those places have taxes going to MA now, change that and put an estate deed in... but not one deed... do it similar to the aud thing... and don't limit it to Calypso. Do similar on all planets... Also, make it so that if you have deeds, you can tp to the planet/city you have the deed for for free... avoiding the daily tp fees for interplanetary tp travel or space ship travel fees, etc. Voting rights and citizenship would be the reason for deed ownership on any and all planets.

Also, since shop markup taxes in cities is fairly low, do something with the cities to give people reason to buy the deeds... factories... town gardens that produce fruit that only deed holders can pick, etc. As far as the voting goes, deed holders for every city could vote whether or not to bring back the monthly rent fees on shops and apartments, etc.
 
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There are much simpler promises of things Mind Ark not implemented yet. If they can't do the simple they should not try the highly complicated which the tp system sounds like what with tokens, defense etc.

Nearly all systems needed to implement NDs idea already exist!

1. We have had TP fee on interplanetary TPs, when space got implemented untill spaceships got introduced (TP fee system exists)
2. Deeds (we have lots of them, no new system needed to create a new one, just make a item (object) and link TP fee (% value) to it, thats it.
3. Defence (just spawn some big ass mobs at TPs, have fun) even if there is turrets, system for mobs that will not be attacked by turrets already in place
4. Defence jobs, could be done by accepting a mission, mission system already in place (nothing new needed to implement) just another NPC or terminal where you accept your daily defense mission.
5. Maintainance (could be done by missions aswell) or some other forms like fortress repairing (in place too)
6. Tokens to use TPs, well thats max a 2 liner in the code to implement that
7. Tokens to craft (generating a new BP, could be done in no time)

So implementing the whole system wouldn´t be much work for MA, but it would generate them a huge income, so I fear they implement if, no matter if we want it or not.

Read through NDs complete post, scroll down to Q&A!

He wants to sell deeds, not even limited amounts, 10 PED each
25% of deed income will be used for implementing this new jobs idea, rest 75% goes to MA for developing platform additions and off platform thinks that are indirectly linked to EU (f.e. Compet).

It will generate a huge cash input into MA´s pockets, and MA loves any kind of cash infusion.

The result:

1. Deeds will be bought from those investors that want to make money from EU (a lot already exist), this is a directly drain of PED out off the game, as big investors regularly take a big part of their profits out of game (but thats money the players pay with the TP fees) -- this PED hurt EU economy instead helping it, although it will force some short time deposits to buy these deeds, it will be bad on the long run.

2. Cost to play for average player will be drastically increased, more people will leave (old timers) and new players will notice even faster that this game is indeed a moneything (retention rate will go down even more).

3. Low level depositors often will be stuck at some places due to no money left for TP and not owning a vehicle of vehicle just broke due to some mob hits. (Ground vehicles are not good to travel long distances in EU)

4. The so called jobs (Defend the TPs), are laughable. Hunting 1h big ass mob will result in more loss than the 10 PED earned from the 1hour job on average. So this payout have artifically no impact. For lower levels not different, 1 hour on L1 Drones, very likely result in a loss higher than the 2.5 PED earned.

5. Low wage jobs (no clue how that should work, no detailed information available)

I can´t see any benefit for players.
Only benefit is the investors draining PED out of EU on the long run, and short time benefits for MA, when selling another million deeds (10 PED each = 1 Million $ directly to MA) -- but thats very shortsighted as this lowers the amount of deposits to play the game on the long run. So even MA will lose here.
 

Erm, not very sure...but I think the $10 referred to in the FAQ is in USD...so they're probably selling each "share" at 10 USD or 100 PEDs.

So your looking at 10 Million USD being raised...potentially...if players get sold on the entire idea, hook, line and sinker.
 
//
If anything we would like to see some of the older times come back when you had to navigate through outposts and use your vehicles a bit more as they are there for a reason but as stated above all feedback will considered carefully should anything like this be implemented in the future which is not yet decided.
//

In old times there were no vehicles.
Players walked to hunting grounds as no many teleports were in game.
Sometimes in form of ghosts witch was even slower than just walking.
Then MA realized that just walking around do not give income as players need to shoot or drop bombs so MA added more TP's to speed up process.
There was still place for adventure trips discovering hunting areas and making TP runs.
All that with completely free TP's before any vehicles witch ruined and killed any challenge and adventure to reach areas, points of view, mining and hunting grounds for witch one had to have knowledge, in many cases good skills and armor etc.

Now days any noob with 88 hp and no armor can go to mine or hunt without need to avoid or kill hard mobs on lands witch are on way to desired spot just using Vtol fucking all experience, skills and gear of old timers miners and hunters.
It's like explosive gambling charm, no need skills, no need armor, fap and weapon just jump with vtol on old timer preferred place and mine or hunt before he can and ofc screw MU on auction by selling cheaply obtained resources.
Not because he use TP but because he use vehicles.
If something need to be removed then remove vehicles or tax them but fee or tax must go in loot pool and not to some deed users.
 
If something need to be removed then remove vehicles or tax them but fee or tax must go in loot pool and not to some deed users.

Perhaps vehicles should have limited range? My thoughts would be all vehicles are electric and require charging after a certain range (charging points could be for free in the cities), alternative expensive bulky batteries could be bought and exchanged during longer trips.

One option could be that vehicle users have to pay a small changing fee (1 pec per minute or something) and this could go into the job fund pool... This would be no different to buying oil currently and by placing limits on the range of vehicles it would improve the sense of adventure, while allowing the tps to be free. MA could also reduce the number of TPs back to the old numbers, to increase the revenue from charging. Lots of people want to go back to the old times and this idea seems a nice balance between doing that and still providing an income for the jobs. Any thoughts?
 
//
In old times there were no vehicles.
Isn't there a planet where there are no vehicles already in game... and how many people 'love it?'... I think the complaint threads about no vehicles there has gone down from three a week to about one every 2 weeks these days since it's become known that complaining won't cause any changes...
 
It's like explosive gambling charm, no need skills, no need armor, fap and weapon just jump with vtol on old timer preferred place and mine or hunt before he can and ofc screw MU on auction by selling cheaply obtained resources.
as for the vtol, been a wish of mine for a long while that vehicles could be damaged outside of pvp by other avatars? Perhaps it's time for the new President to make that happen? You screw around and piss people off with your vtol, bye bye vtol...
 
Isn't there a planet where there are no vehicles already in game... and how many people 'love it?'... I think the complaint threads about no vehicles there has gone down from three a week to about one every 2 weeks these days since it's become known that complaining won't cause any changes...

That's what I thought of right away, Ancient Greece when I went there, was an awful experience - you couldn't TP or use vehicles. Even with vehicles it takes long long time to flow through even that area, it's boring, provides no benefit, and takes up lots of time I can actually be using peds.
 
Nearly all systems needed to implement NDs idea already exist!



I can´t see any benefit for players.
Only benefit is the investors draining PED out of EU on the long run, and short time benefits for MA, when selling another million deeds (10 PED each = 1 Million $ directly to MA) -- but thats very shortsighted as this lowers the amount of deposits to play the game on the long run. So even MA will lose here.

Great post, just highlighted the bottom part though as it hits on what I think. Didn't they do this already with CLD? This was supposed to be a big boost in capital for MA that would go into advertising, new systems, and increase player base. If someone can show me how all that money that went to CLDs was used effectively and covered these areas of focus, I'd be amazed. I see a couple banner ads online, and they post some facebook crap here or there and that's it.. it was no where near what they presented to us. Why do this again?
 
Tossing a few questions into the ring.

1. Will more funds improve MindArk's competence?

2. What happens in an economy when the "cost of transactions" increases?

3. Regarding Minimum Wage and Guaranteed Work
_3a. What are the economic consequences (Economics 101)?
_3b. Who are the benefactors? Where does the "benefit" come from? Where does it go?
_3c. Is minimum wages correlated with a belief in perpetual motion?
 
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